Hello, everybody, and welcome to a brand new series on heritage radio network called the culinary call sheet where we give a peek into the back kitchen of culinary media. I'm your host, April Jones,

and I'm your co host, Darren bresnitz. Part of why we started the show was to offer an unofficial mentorship for anyone who's interested in learning about all aspects of food and video, whether that's TV, social media online, or just something you want to do for fun.

Absolutely what was once niche or a little silly, as I'm sure you remember, Darren, when we started out, this man has now become such a massive playing field for so many creatives using food as the medium.

It's something that has driven us professionally and personally, for so many years. What excites me the most about this show is that we're going to sit down with some of the industry leaders to hear how they made it and what drew them into this industry.

With 20 years in the culinary production game ourselves. We're hoping we can give through these conversations an insider's view into personal stories from the field, as well as an in depth behind the scenes look into some of the most popular food programming. In today's evolving culinary media landscape.

We'll be covering everything from how to style your food, to how to license IP, to developing your own ideas, and some tips from the masters of how to host your own show.

Yeah, it's a little bit of conversation, how to and how do you do the things that you do in color media, which I'm so excited about? I love so many of the guests that are coming on this season. We have talent from Food Network from Vice media eater refinery 29,

we've met some of the best people in the world both in front of and behind the camera. And we're bringing them all together to share their stories, their delicious adventure and their unique journey into this crazy world.

So to be the first to hear our episodes when they launched this fall, go to wherever podcasts are streaming, and hit subscribe and make sure to give us a follow at the Culinary call sheet on Instagram.

Today's program was brought to you by patina events at Brooklyn Botanic Garden, an idyllic location for weddings, corporate events and parties of any style, visit us at patina events.com.

This week on meat and three we're getting semantic to understand the deeper meaning behind some of the foods we love. First, we'll look at the big debate happening around the word milk. Who the hell are you

to tell me what is the name of my product and my landscape and everything we've cared about when you know you don't have anything invested in except to put out a little money to buy our entire life.

Then we get the lowdown on the language of cider.

So the first thing that's really confusing about dryness is that it has nothing to do with how something actually feels in your mouth.

And finally we get our fill of Tiki talk you don't walk into taking over the canal Yeah, this is what Polynesia is probably like, like it's supposed to be like fantasy and stuff. That's the hard part. It's so easy to do Tiki bad and that's where it gets a bad name. Tune in to this week's episode of meat and three that's me at plus sign thr e available wherever you listen to podcasts

Hello and welcome to vo early. We're still going What

am I on man?

Jesus Yes. This is Dave coming to you live on heritage radio network and listen people. I was here before the clock turned 1201 non Time True before the clock too before the clock turned 1201 I ran where the spins off all of my clothes and gear to go to Houston from the subway and I made it here before it turned 1201 I called in to our our illustrious radio station here which has no cell service and said start the announcements now so that they don't have to wait for me to get in the new there is no there is no communication into the boss decides he's going to hear you Dave I can't hear I can't hear you Dave. And then I get here so I want all of you guys to know I'm here before 1201 Suck it and blow it out your backside haters. Suck it

up take full responsibility for incredibly late start.

Bad we're off to such a good start.

So as usual, we have Anastasia hammer Lopez, how're you doing? Fine. Yeah, we got cat in the booth. I don't know why she's here with a camera. I don't really know she's not on a mic sinitic microphone you know you can't be in here without being in a microphone

this is we're getting really good qualities. Clips of cat walking.

Yeah, we got we got you got good clump. You got good clump on mics. There's just common street sweet. I got Matt in the booth. How you doing Matt?

I'm feeling good. Right, we already have a caller, in fact, but we can, you know, we can wait a minute,

you can wait like 3540 seconds, something on that in that range. And we have as our special guest today, author podcaster, marketing, genius entrepreneur, lover of food, Seth Godin, how're you doing?

I am fantastic.

So how would you like us to call in all like, so, you know, in preparation, I was reading and listening to some of the podcasts, I'm going to characterize kind of what I'm getting, which is, you're trying to help people figure out how to do something, if they don't necessarily know the best way to get from A to B. They know they want to move, they know they want to make something but they're not sure that they have kind of the best strategy to get there. Is that fair?

That's part of it. I think culture is a system. And if you see how the system works, you can make culture work for you and not against you. And I think that people are afraid to make things better. And I'm trying to encourage them to make things better like you I am against the enemies of qualities and yes,

Seth brought brought us some some small wooden kind of ice cream spoony things that say enemies of quality on enemy equality, which I I very much appreciate lately. Laser those Yeah, I have an interesting laser story we can talk about if we have time later. I was saying we could talk about if you're interested. Later, we can talk about new design machines, old design machines and the systems and then lack of repairability on some of the new design machines, and how that works out. But in the meantime, since we have a caller, why don't we wait? I'm sweating like a I'm sweating like a just about to be executed pig. Why don't we take that? Caller? Caller? You're on the air?

Yeah. Hi, how's it going? My name is Eva from Washington DC. How are you doing? Good. All right. So I have a competition barbecue question for you. Go so, you know, I have I have not a ton of experience. I'm about to enter my first like Kansas City Barbecue society competition. And I've got some real questions about brisket. Okay. And so you know, they do a lot of different injections that you can find kind of these these proprietary blends of things you can inject your brisket with and so there's always like a beef stock and then there is matter and another ingredient. So they put monosodium glutamate and they put sodium phosphate and yep, they put sometimes there's like hydrolyzed plant based proteins. So I was wondering, like, if you point me in the right direction on how to start about one on my own if I have all those individual components.

Okay, so they all those are there because here's what they're worried about. Their barbecue is delicious. Before anyone jumps on me. You like barbecue Seth? Vegetarian,

I don't need me. I mean, fine. But if I ate meat, I would love Barbie.

Okay, so the issue with barbecue is is that the everyone wants to do it and kind of a traditional way and the and the enemy of barbecue is is dried, dried, oyster amount of moisture management's miracle mushroom management. So that's what all those ingredients are there for. They're allowing you to beat the snot out of the meat and still maintain some moisture in it. So the hydrolyzed vegetable protein is there as a water holding agent, that phosphates are there as a water holding that actually makes the meat itself hold on to its water better at higher temperatures. And forget what the other one you said was there's oh the the meat stock is there just to inject flavor into it and extra moisture that's going to be pumped out of it as you deliciously but viciously overcook it in the barbecue process. So, I mean, all those things, you know, all those things work. I mean, the the I don't remember the percentages, you know, but you can look up like I used to I did once I don't know if any remember remember Josh Ozersky? Yeah, they he wants he was obsessed with juiciness. He was obsessed. He kept Dave juicy steaks let's go talk about juicy steaks. He took me most uncomfortable dinner I've ever had in my life. Most uncomfortable lunch I've ever had in my life as witness dasya Lopez where she was completely angered that we were listening to somebody's discussion of their bowel ailments and other things and in return got to taste more citrus than we have ever seen in our entire life. But she has still never forgiven me for forcing her to sit through that uncomfortable lunch. Most uncomfortable dinner I ever had was at a strip club when Adam Perry Lang was I will believe it was the penthouse club or something. Anyway, so like I had to eat and discuss juicy steaks well you know people around me were getting lap dances which I don't know for those you that don't know me that's not my thing. Like I'd like I just didn't appreciate the whole that the atmosphere but doesn't make sense does it? Mix it mixing that kind of stuff with food is not my anyway. So I kind of proved to him that juiciness isn't so important, because I took sodium polyfiber you know sodium sure And, you know, sodium hexametaphosphate, and brined it into a steak and made the steak increase its weight by about 10 15% in water, and then cooked it. And lo and behold, I had a juicy but not so flavorful steak. So mostly, you know, back in the old days, people would make stuff and it will be fine without any of that I think all of that stuff just giving you wiggle room. And so I don't really I'm also not opposed to it, I'm not opposed to it, the MSG is going to increase the flavor profile, I would just say I would just start with some tests don't, don't go too high on MSG, I think that's the mistake people make is that when you, when you start add a little bit of MSG, it's great. And then all of a sudden, you can tell that MSG was added. And as soon as you can tell MSG was added, it's a little bit off putting in the same way that like who's salt, who that's good. Who's Salt, salt, salt, and then at a certain point, that little bit of extra salt, you're like, oh my, that's salty. But like MSG, I think has a sharper inflection point, there's a wider range of properly salted things than there is a wide range of properly MSG things, the shrimp, the sodium hexametaphosphate, or whatever sodium, you know, whatever phosphates you're using, you're not going to really I don't think maybe you can look up the literature on it. But that stuff's fairly widely available online. If you just type in phosphates, water holding capacity, a meat just like type those things like phosphates, water holding capacity, meat, like that stuff is pretty well defined even on the on the you can go find it literature, and that non technical literature because industrial commercial people use it. You know, I'm not against that either. But just realize that, you know, you're injecting hopefully with meat stock or something with flavor, because there's a whole group of people I happen to disagree with them. But people like Kenji who are anti any sort of what adding water to meat because you're not adding it's not flavorful the water that you're adding them, you know, I don't agree with that. Also, like, you know, there's Harold McGee, who you know, I love and respect also, at one point said not to Brian turkeys, because it it made the gravy incredibly, you know, I have workarounds for every word for everything that you for every application of a technology or ingredient, there's secondary things you need to change. So, you know, I think all of it's valid when done, we've done practices. And I've answered this question,

well, if you want to win, you're only two ways to win, you win by fitting in all the way or standing out all the way. So to fit in all the way you have to do it the way the current people are doing it, but even more. And if you want to win by standing out, you have to do it differently than the people who are winning or doing it. And that's the first choice you got

to make, especially up here as

well. So I got a I've got a plan or a Part B for that. Questions related to that,

oh, you're gonna get this is gonna kill you. But hurry up. What do you got?

So, so they say the internal temperature for brisket should be somewhere between 195 and like 205 ish. Why is it so high? Why don't they smoke to 161? lower than that? All right, well,

look, first of all, when you're dealing with a traditional product, and to go back to what I'm going to say every every for every question, it's going to go back to what Seth says what you're shooting for is traditional brisket product and traditional brisket. If you cook it normally I eat don't overcook it right there. It's incredibly tough because the connective tissue makes it almost inedible at that point. So the traditional way of cooking it is to cook it to a very high temperatures such that the gel such that the collagen and connective tissues render into gelatin. It's that gelatin, it gives you the, the the parents that you haven't viciously overcooked it makes it quote unquote, fork tender, but those that what your fork tendering it into are kind of shreds and viciously overcooked meat right now, that's the texture people are shooting for. And so that that's kind of what they're looking for, they're looking for a juicy equivalent of that meat that can be pulled apart with a fork, and at 150, it's never gonna it will, it won't do that what will happen instead, let's say you were to cook it for 72 hours at a low temperature, those fibers won't get as hard, right? They won't get like flaky apart like that, they'll get more mushy, you'll get softer. That's also not what they're looking for. And so I think, you know, Seth is completely accurate here. And he's saying, do what they want just more. That's why they're adding MSG. It's what they want. But more, you know, like a little bit more liquid a little bit more beef flavor. It's what everyone's looking for. But more if you go outside of their textural parameters, you're going to lose, I'm going to have to say that in competition through competitions, especially. I've never seen anyone win by going completely outside of the box. I call this losing with style. And I think this is a valid thing to do. And I have lost many contests with I believe, immense style, and there's honor in this. But in general, I've you know, it's you never, you never win in those kinds of things. Other than by choice one wishes to do what they're doing, but more so well said,

Okay. Okay, awesome. Well, on that note, I'm going to play around with some koji so I'll let you know how it goes with a brisket.

Cool. Thanks. Thanks, bud. Alright, so Seth, what do you bring us today?

But I bought you a rye bread. There was a lot of debates I bring you doll so Show dosa I couldn't bring you because it wouldn't let it wouldn't last. But instead I went with the rye bread. I have a little grinder in my basement and I buy the ripe berries at Union Square market. And the only ingredients I add are two kinds of barley malt, the powdered one and the liquid one. And walnuts. That's it. I have to add walnuts even though my friend does she does definitely allergic to them. I just put a little sign up. No walnuts

do not eat these. Yeah, you know, out Sunday they can kick these allergies

or Yeah, I they're making progress. So here's the secret of the rye bread. The secret of the rye bread is 12 hour bake.

So you have the super low and so so this is like like, like full on. Like, I would call it German style for full cornbread like long long big turns dark on its own no caramel color, etc.

No caramel color. Like I cook it for 75 for an hour and a half and I turn the oven off and go to bed.

How much do you dislike people who associate the flavor of rye with the flavor of caraway see oh, there's

no like yeah, a pox on them. Right? I think that's accurate. Most rye bread isn't has no Ryan or just like their wave arrived berry over the thing.

Right and it's in the ones that use it are like like the what's the what's the standard? The standard American deli right New York Daily rise? Well, it's called Levy's levees. What's it like to be Jewish to

like levees, Robert? Yeah.

So it's fine. It's a fine sandwich bread by the way. It's a fine sandwich bread. But it's the Rye is totally refined. I get almost no. Right.

Exactly flavor.

So so so for those of you that don't eat you know, the Danes also have a full cone full corn broke.

Oh, yeah, there's some really good Danish stuff.

It's that whole middle in north of Europe they notice and we're talking smells great. We're talking like this is like for those of you that live in lands where this is only in a supermarket the brand of full corn brought you can get is relatively moist. Mess. It wasn't Messer, Mr. Manga. Mr. Meyer,

the one that comes through the square and it's all sliced up and it sits there for a week. Yeah, it's pretty good. Yeah, it's,

it's, it's it's very tart. And kind of moist. But if you are you for that thinness level. Yeah, I

like it. When I cut this I cut it as thin as I can. I hear my I'll try not to cut anybody when I

cut into the mic. Now. I don't know if you know this, but listeners of the show. Don't mind cutting noises but hate mouth noises. They hate it. I'm going to put my glasses.

There. Your mouth noise is about to occur though. I don't know how to apologize for that. The status here there you go.

It's gonna become an ASMR show.

I'll just I'll just bleep the next 10 minutes of the show.

You know that like my son DAX has started saying a whatever the initials are, whatever the acronym is, and he doesn't have any idea what it means. I don't think he watches that stuff. You ready for a mouth noise? But I think people don't mind this particular release. It's the form swamp swamp they don't

like it has a low moisture noises Yeah.

That's okay. But now,

it's that Yeah.

Sorry, I forgot to bring radio friendly food. That was my fault. I can handle it. The feedback is welcome. Or the multiverse

really comes through. You think? Well the sweetness is conversion from our using diastatic malt or using barley. Right. So sorry. It's got like, it's, I'm gonna eat during the commercial break anymore, but it's definitely got a sweetness. I like it. I quite like it. I would like some cheese. Yeah.

I'm gonna take some to Matt. I've gotta go. What? It was so great to be here. Thanks for

letting we haven't even got a chance to mess with you yet. Very thought I am

so sad. I will say the Mezcal tasting that I talked about last week is in the Times today.

Yeah. It's so when is your day? How was it? Thanks. Well, because we talked about it last week. Yeah.

So when does the Mezcal take

it is April 26, which is a Friday at 6:30pm. Just down the street at El Cortez do people have to reserve in advance? There are tickets available online? Where did they go? Heritage radio network.org/sacred

Okay. Sa C R Ed. That's right. Perfect.

Thanks, Seth. Seth Godin

for the win. So

nice to meet Wow, I'm saying all the time.

Patina Restaurant Group offers unparalleled service in New York's most iconic locations, including Lincoln Center, Rockefeller Center, and Macy's Herald Square. patina is also the exclusive caterer at Brooklyn Botanic Garden. For meetings and presentations in the glass walled atrium to gallows in the renovated palm house and intimate wedding showers that yellow Magnolia cafe. Your event will be perfectly imagined and customized at Brooklyn Botanic Garden. You can also enjoy ala carte brunch and lunch at the picturesque yellow Magnolia Cafe overlooking Lily pool terrace. Executive Chef Morgan Jarrett's unique menu offers warm, distinctive cuisine, with a focus on local vegetables, grains and sustainably sourced meats and fish. Hey,

are you enjoying this podcast? Heritage Radio Network has plenty more. My name is Kathy airway. And I'm the host of eat your words here on Hrn. Every week I sit down with food writers to talk about their newest work from colorful cookbooks to food memoirs to exploit essays on the food industry. It's all meaty topic for discussion. You can find your words wherever you listen to podcasts and on heritage Radio network.org. Caller you're on the air. Hey, David.

Alice's Alex from Long Beach. How y'all doing? All right, how you doing? Doing fine. So two questions. One thing to carbonation and one relating to little calm yellow and I have linked to carbonation, I have a little Kegerator that I use the carbonated water I live in an apartment. I do it 34 Fahrenheit and 45 psi and it just comes out amazingly fast. I give myself a little acetic that each time I do it. I'm wondering if there's any, like quality of life improvement I can have that doesn't come out blasting at me.

Yeah. Okay, so. So you keep the keg in a refrigerator and you carbonate it out out of the refrigerator. And you're doing it at 45 psi. You're in a system Yeah. What kind of Tathra? What kind of tap using whatever came with it? That's your mistake. All those taps are garbage. Yeah, they people need to be people need to be people who sell things don't necessarily understand or use them. This is the secret one of the secrets I've learned in like my life is that the people just because someone sells it does not actually make them an expert in the usage of said thing. Or what what kind of tubes Do you have? Are they clear vinyl tubes? Correct? Yeah, then look, this person might not be a bad human being. But like those tubes eventually, I mean, maybe not in your house, but like if you were going to beat them up or have them in a professional environment, those tubes will fail. I only use braided, braided tubes so that they don't fail. Also, I hate I hate PVC. If I need to use PVC if I buy from the beverage suppliers they sell the cheap braided PVC. It invariably smells bad makes me very angry. You can get it's a lot pricier but you can if you must have a flexible flexible tube, you can get a braided tygon if you buy tygon on Amazon, people will rip you off and give you regular PVC instead of tygon taglines a high purity PVC. And it's still if you hate PVC, it's still PVC. But it it tends not to smell but it's, you know, on the order of like, you know, between like, like, two $2 $2 $53 a foot somewhere like this spring for that. That's a lot more. Yeah, well depends on how many feet you're running. And you know, but you know, gas, you can run an irregular braided PVC line, please don't run gas and an unbraided line. Eventually someone will puncture it and then and if you really need something tough, get the get the polyethylene EBA jacketed stuff, it never imparts any flavor whatsoever and I've never seen it fail and I've tried to make it fail. Repeated abuse will not make it fail. Second thing when you're filling up a kegerator remember to fill it completely with water and then purge it out with co2. Then pressurize your stuff into it if you want to make sure that there's no air into it. If you're using a carburetor if you're already getting a good enough. The reason you're foaming is one your tap stinks. Go get a a Becker don't get the Cornelius one actually, it's been failing me get the Becker squeeze valve get that that's the first thing you need to do to put into your line. Those picnic taps are the worst thing that's ever happened. The second reason your foam you're putting it you're not putting it through a cold plate second thing you need because you're in a kegerator second thing I would do is run it through about 15 foot of hose on the inside of your 1520 foot of hose on the inside of your refrigerator to give it time to kind of like laminar and slow out before it leaves your tap try it if it doesn't help then take it out. There's no reason to have that extra tube there but give it a shot. And the third problem is is that you it sounds to me like you have some air in your system. And when you have air when you haven't purged it like the thing I told you to get rid of all the air in by either you can you can pressurize and vent a couple of times at the top of the thing to get it to go but if any errors remaining in your system under pressure when you release the pressure that things like nitrogen, which are in oxygen, which are almost completely insoluble will form micro nucleation sites the minute they come out of the tap and foam out on you so get rid of your air maybe add some tubing before the outlet and please throw away that picnic tap and get a decent tap.

And for those of you who aren't yet on the seltzer lifestyle you have persuaded my son who has built one in my office as well. You got the nitrogen seltzer which you don't talk about enough on the air. There's a lot to be said for the seltzer lifestyle it's worth to try it

you know like you take water that comes in which by the way I hate flat water I won't drink it like my my sons are like, you know, I will if I have to when I'm forced to if I'm dehydrated, but I threatened my family because I don't want them to put me in self service situations like that, you know, I threaten them that I just won't, I will just I will let myself dehydrate into a raisin rather than eat, drink non carbonated water. And so they kind of make fun of me for it. But honestly, you know, it's not it's a little bit of a hurdle to like make your life carbonated. And it's totally worth it. You know, and it's actually you know, is if, if getting a Soda Stream is what it takes to get you there then get get a soda stream, but there are cheaper ways to have infinite seltzer. Anyways, hopefully, hopefully I answered that question and stasis like I don't care. I don't care. All right. So what do we want to talk about? What by the way, if you're going to listen, which one of the podcasts akimbo is the one that you want people to listen to now or now?

That's my podcast, if they want to listen to it, that'd be great.

Here is a and here's here's a word to the wise. I am. I'm stubborn. And so like, I started listening to it in reverse, I'm like, I'm going to listen to the most recent stuff first, and then go backwards. And I realized, not after the most recent one, because you didn't take questions on the most recent one, but on the one after that, that you are going to answer questions from the podcast before on this week's podcast. And for some reason, this didn't encourage me to then start working from the back and going up for some reason. I'm like, I'm just going to listen to questions without knowing what the heck he's talking about. Can I do that? And then like, later, I'd be like, Oh, now I get with a question was about. So. So you know, a lot, a lot of a lot of, you know, again, it's like, you seem to have like a very kind of open view of what a creator is, right? Yep. And most of the stuff that I've heard you talk about or, you know, you read the work is aimed at people who want to do something, you know, creative writ large, you make new things make things better, right? Yep, focus on make things better. Now, here's a question for someone who runs, you know, or helps to run a bar, or restaurant, or, you know, Anastasia ran, you know, the outlet of pasta flyer, or Anastasia, and I run Booker and DAG, right? You're not always, and maybe you shouldn't even always be working with creative people. Right? So, like, it seems to me that there's kind of a and the other thing I'm going to say about your work, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna let you go, because this is gonna get kind of like, hard for people to understand if they don't already already familiar with your work, is that a lot of like, this is kind of what I like is it you you're focused a lot on kind of your personal response, personal response. But number two, inwardly focused, like what you can do about yourself, and the, you know, the more I was reading, the more I'm like, Okay, look at, I tell my kids this all the time, don't be concerned about externalities. In other words, what's fair, don't be concerned that that person has more money than I do, or that person has some sort of benefit that I don't have. Focus only on stuff that you can control about yourself. But the flip side of that is, if you can design this, if you're designing a system, you do have to worry about kind of fairness. And not everyone can, you know, then I also have to worry about people that can't be creative. And what does it mean to be good to someone like that? It's not to try to necessarily force them to be better at being creative, right? I mean, I was with you into the last sentence. Well, um, there was I have people who I think makes them feel completely uncomfortable to, there's people who really desire the safety, our salutely of us correct knowing what to Joyce right there. Yeah. Right. Right. Edwards. So your point is only I know you answer at large. But in other words, your point is that someone who wants that safety net, give them that safety net, if that's like, give them the chance to be that creative person. But then, do you really think we should try to force someone to be that person even if they're not.

So the reason that I love the two of you. And I do and I've been listening since before you were famous and been to the bar is because you have a growth mindset. And the growth mindset says, things could be better. And once you acknowledge that things can be better, the next step is and I could make them better, that I don't have to make macaroni and cheese the same way every time. I could make my macaroni and cheese better. I believe everyone at one point in their life has made something better. And once you can make something better once you're a creator, and if you're a creator, you can do it again. And if we live in a culture where everyone is trying to make things better, then we can have interesting conversations about what does better even mean. Does better mean more open more diverse Does better mean just one person wins? Those are interesting conversations, but we have to begin with guess what, you can make things better. And my career coincides with the birth of the Internet. And what that means is you don't need to CBS radio to give you a show, you can make your own show. You don't need Julia Child to tell you you're allowed to cook something for recipe, you can make your own recipe. And well, that's where Kenji came from, right? Like, who was Kenji Kenji didn't have a permit. But Kenji showed up, shared something he had to say, and some people wanted to hear it. So in the face of all that infinity, my argument is, see the system, make it better. And that's why I just keep saying over and over and over again, be responsible for your work. And nothing is fair, but at least you can make it better.

Kind of related to that. I'm also a firm believer that just because there's so many more people doing things now doesn't mean that everyone's that much. But in other words, it doesn't make it that much harder for you to do something, if you have something to say,

right? Because you can be interesting, you don't have to be correct,

right. And also, just because everyone can make Well, this is gonna show my age back when people actually want to make magazines. Remember, when, when color printers first came out, you're like, Oh, my God, anyone can make a magazine. Now. You don't need to you don't need to work to make a magazine raw. Like, you still need to be good to make something good. Just because it's easier to make something glossy, doesn't mean it's easy to make something good. Exactly. So

you know, typography ran screaming after they came out with desktop publishing. But true typographers figured out that just because people have fonts doesn't mean they know how to make things look.

Right. Right. What do you think about our belief in self self in friendly self loathing? Are you alright with that?

No. I think the reason I'm not alright with it is there are already enough people in the world who want to get pleasure out of bringing us down who get pleasure out of criticism. You don't have to do it to yourself.

Yeah, but I don't know. Like, I feel Don't you know, people who have, I guess the drive for self loathing stops you from becoming complacent. Right,

if you use it properly, but what it really does is it gives you a place to hide. Yeah, because you're experiencing failure in advance over and over again. Oh, yeah. But

I'm all about the failure. You're not all about the super pro.

thing, if you don't fail, if you don't, if you can't handle failure, you'll never going to you're never going to succeed if you can't handle

different kinds of failure. Yeah, you're working, really talking about the failure of I did something to see. But if you fail in advance, oh, you never did it. You're just giving yourself an excuse.

Yeah, see me. So you're saying it can be misconstrued. I'm all for doing things

right? totally down with that. It's just what paralyzes people, you know, I'll give a talk. And people raise their hand. And then at the end, they'll run up to ask you their secret question. Like what was wrong with asking me your question in public when I was there to answer your question? Well, it might have been stupid. So you're willing to ask the question, a stupid question in private, but you're not willing to ask the stupid question in public, that creates a cycle of constant experience of failure in private, which doesn't benefit anyone versus your generous act of being willing to fail in public. Because you put something into the world and at least we learned one new thing that doesn't work.

Both Anastasia and my partner Don, dislike most public questions, because they don't think the person actually has a question. They just think that the person was has the way you put it. They just want to say something

to be heard. Yeah, I have a question for Dave. They want to let Dave know that they've been working on something. Yeah, then those are the people that speak up the people with actual real stuff. Don't

I don't know, I have no opinion on this. No publicly shareable opinions on this message. I'm just messing with you. Here's another one, you have an interesting idea on kind of, and this goes to, I think, to chefs and cooks a lot. So let's, you talk a lot about writer's block, no such thing, no such thing. And it applies to I assume any sort of I need to create correct painting cooking right now. So you want to talk a little bit about your view on writer's block first, and I can I can

controversial I have been I've been poked and queried on this topic. I think writer's block is invented, no one gets plumbers block. No one gets walking block. Where did writer's block come from? Well, if you look at the literature there what it wasn't even used as a term before 1925 was invented by Ernest Hemingway and the great American novel, that before that writing was a thing you did in your spare time. And it wasn't a referendum on your quality as a human. It was just an act that you performed. And so if we say I don't have any good ideas, what we're really saying is, I am not willing to work my way through an unlimited number of bad ideas on my way to finding a good idea. I just don't have the perfect one yet. So I was friends with Isaac Asimov. Years ago, I would did a project with him. He wrote 400 books published 400 books. I said, Isaac, how do you do that? He said, Good morning, I sit at this typewriter 630 In the morning, and I type for five and a half hours till noon, and then I'm done. And it doesn't matter if I typed something good, I just have to type. And once your brain sees you're going to type one way or the other, your brain will come up with something decent. And the same thing is true. If you're trying to develop a new recipe, if you're trying to open a restaurant don't do anything. If you you're you persuade the resistance, as Pressfield calls it, that you're going to do it and you keep doing it. Sooner or later, one of your bad ideas will turn out to be a good one. So I blogged every day for 7000 blog posts in a row. And I don't blog tomorrow, because it's perfect. I blocked tomorrow, because it's tomorrow.

So I think, you know, part of what might be I think that's true, like, people think that artists assist us artists or writers, they think that there's something super impressive going on there from a day to day thing, day to day standpoint, the same with cooks anyone else. And I always say to them, having been trained as a visual artist, you know, a trained artist, as we say, the NFA, though it's no lie I do. And the truth of the matter is, is that the veneration with which we hold people in creative positions, means that we don't really understand what those people are doing on a day to day basis.

Exactly right. And I try to demystify that, because I don't think Bob Dylan is a particular genius. I think he just ships often.

Well, I mean, we the ship, the shipping is the thing. So when we look at people, we we tend to think about the stuff that they put out in public. Right, which you know, for for musician, hopefully writer, you know, hopefully is there better stuff, right, or what they think is better

than B boy, we got the guy with the brisket competition, he's finally bringing his brisket into the public, right? Because that's a cause of anxiety. Right Rive at brisket is different than public brisket.

Right? Right. But my point is, is that people ask me this a lot. So I've come up with some bar techniques and techniques, things like this. People say, so what's the next? So what's the next? You know? What's the next thing? I'm like? Well, how should I know? How should I know what the next thing is? Because, but that's, I think, where this whole idea comes from that there are these kind of, and there are actually, in fact, massive leaps of understanding that happened through practice, it does happen, you know. But the fact of the matter is, is that you can't sit in a corner and wait for the good stuff to happen. You have to be working on a problem, right? So right now, I'm working on problems with Nastasia on the next, you know, product that we're going to make which we can, I guess you know, tangentially talk about tell us, but then I you know, on stuff for the bar, I'm working on certain kinds of technical flow problems, but I'm not working on any problems right now that I'm going to come up with a fantastic new style of drink. I'm not.

I've started the agenda today, but I want to interrupt for one second, because you're talking about this last week. My wife owns four bakeries and her chief baking officer invented Fudgie the whale.

Oh my God. And they know Tom Carville.

Yes, she worked. She was Tom. She was 18 years old Tom Kaurava was her boss. How was Tom kohrville Tom Carvel was a fine, fine, man. Oh, that's

so nice to know.

When When Kathy went to get a mortgage for her house, he was angry at her that he did. She didn't just say can you back this and he called the bank officer without telling her to make sure that the mortgage would go through the whole thing. So Tom, as you know, you can't leave the stuff in the teller machine overnight. And so he he was frugal. He's like, What should we do? We need to make cakes with the leftover ice cream overnight and sell them tomorrow. And he said, Okay. And they say necessity mother invention. If Tom had waited for the perfect ice cream cake, there would never have been Fajita? Well, because Fudgie the wills and imperfect ice cream cake

well did it did start as fudgy and then get turned into Santa or did it's like how did it start?

So there were a lot of production problems because the tail was can break. And so one of Cathy's innovations was making 5g 5g Because if you make 5g Vanilla, he doesn't have the structural integrity and apparently chocolate or the crumbles or something, give us the tail that thing. And then there was cookie Puss in the whole idea of turning them upside down. Right. So Kathy talks, if you prompt her a little bit about Fudgie the whale but I haven't heard all of the

need to have we need to have both of you back here to talk about Fudgie the whale first of all, for those who I happen to I'm just gonna say this. I'm not an icing guy but frozen icing. There you go is on point and that like to know that I even know someone who came up with the ice cream cake with the grumble in the middle and I'll go Carvel ice cream cake and I don't think it's just taste memory. I think they're good. I think that they're a good thing. I like them. Do you like them?

I certainly have a pristine relationship with them. I don't think I would go out of my way to have one today.

I mean, but they're better than I mean,

they're better than most anything. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I mean, no offense, Baskin Robbins. But I mean, offense Baskin Robbins. We can say offense. Yeah, yeah. Me. You know what I mean, like Carville and the memory for anyone who grew up on the East Coast. Wednesdays and Sundays at COVID. I mean, the guy was Tom Carvel. Unbelievable. I'm glad to know he was a good guy, you know, had does it bother you when you find out that people that you used to look up to are just vile?