Hello, everybody, and welcome to a brand new series on heritage radio network called the culinary call sheet where we give a peek into the back kitchen of culinary media. I'm your host, April Jones,

and I'm your co host, Darren bresnitz. Part of why we started the show was to offer an unofficial mentorship for anyone who's interested in learning about all aspects of food and video, whether that's TV, social media online, or just something you want to do for fun.

Absolutely what was once niche or a little silly, as I'm sure you remember, Darren, when we started out, this man has now become such a massive playing field for so many creatives using food as the medium.

It's something that has driven us professionally and personally, for so many years. What excites me the most about this show is that we're going to sit down with some of the industry leaders to hear how they made it and what drew them into this industry.

With 20 years in the culinary production game ourselves. We're hoping we can give through these conversations an insider's view into personal stories from the field, as well as an in depth behind the scenes look into some of the most popular food programming. In today's evolving culinary media landscape.

We'll be covering everything from how to style your food, to how to license IP, to developing your own ideas, and some tips from the masters of how to host your own show.

Yeah, it's a little bit of conversation, how to and how do you do the things that you do in color media, which I'm so excited about? I love so many of the guests that are coming on this season. We have talent from Food Network from Vice media eater refinery 29,

we've met some of the best people in the world both in front of and behind the camera. And we're bringing them all together to share their stories, their delicious adventure and their unique journey into this crazy world.

So to be the first to hear our episodes when they launched this fall, go to wherever podcasts are streaming, and hit subscribe and make sure to give us a follow at the Culinary call sheet on Instagram.

This episode is brought to you by mu fad the Museum of food and drink Inspiring Public curiosity about food. Learn more at mo fadd.org.

This week on mountain three, we bring you stories about the coldest, darkest season. We start in a California vineyard. It's cold, but it's wet and things are still alive. There's a lot of life in this soil. We explore two frontiers of cocktail culture, luxury ice and the rise of non alcoholic drinks.

The rocks traditionally becomes 25% of new drinks volume and as such imparts smells and tastes.

And we investigate the risks facing New York City delivery workers during the harsh winter.

In the winter time, after two hours of biking, it's quite easy actually for the bikes to thing upside down or slips or slide.

Tune in to this week's episode of meat and three that's mea t plus sign thr E for some food for thought to sustain you through the dead of winter. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.

Hello, and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave. Coming to you live on the heritage Radio Network every Tuesday. We are here at 12 Roberta's pizzeria in Bushwick. Brooklyn joined as usual, Anastasia hammer Lopez, how're you doing? Good, who even though we actually had the opportunity to start at 12 on the on the button for once? She's like, I gotta go pee. You know, look, I gotta go pee. And then she's like, you're always late. Why can I be late? It's like, because I am researching your questions, people. That is why I am late in the morning. She's like, but I have to put it together at midnight. Which means people I don't have the questions until I'm already getting ready to go to bed. Because earlier for you.

Why don't you pee earlier? Oh,

that was our special guest Joshua David Stein. And I can tell even though we've never met that I like this guy a lot. And we got Matthew in the booth. How you doing? Oh, excellent. Yeah. All right, calling your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 71849721 to eight. So you go by you go by just by Joshua. Joshua. What do you like Joshua? Alright, so. So you used to be the restaurant critic at the observer. That's the pink one.

Yeah. Well, it's the pink one.

It's not pink anymore.

It doesn't exist anymore.

Well, that would make it not pink. Yeah, but you resigned before they stopped existing. Right? Correct. Yes. The because you was political. Not a political few ground rules.

Oh, yeah. Let's go over them. Ground rules our

family show no cursing. I noticed that I listen to your podcast with Jamie Oliver and man likes to curse. Let me tell you something else. I also Nastasia Do I enjoy cursing? Yeah. Nastasia also very much enjoys cursing.

I love cursing for the record how many like eight year olds are listening right now? Shouldn't be in school.

Couple into the backlog? Yes. So anyway, no cursing, no cursing. And we are in general a political occasionally our views will seep through but very rarely. You're a political on the show. Right? In the real life. I am not a political right.

This is show Dave the show Dave? Yes, sir. Dave a political NPj other than

other than the cursing Anastasia to Anastasia is also mostly apolitical here and also doesn't curse. So you're getting that I will say this though. Pretty much other than that, we're pretty much the way we are. Okay. So, you know, if you notice Stasi from before, she is pretty much still in the Stasi HS minus the cursing and the political views.

arms crossed, legs crossed. Very she's

angry at us for poking fun at her about the pig. So she's

got although I was also peeing. And I will say something. You know, I used to have a show on heritage radio. The Joshua Davidson variety hour half hour. Yeah. And when I was here, those bathrooms were not nearly as nice.

I have never I've I used to go to the bathrooms here. Every once in a while. I have an aversion to public restrooms. I did test them. Yes, I have my own bar. I have to go into them to make sure that they're not filthy and disgusting. But otherwise, I mean, that's why I have a home. Yes. So that I can pee and yeah, right. Honestly, like if you said to me, Hey, Dave, I have a very nice bed. But what you don't pee or poop? I don't hear not usually no. But if you said you could choose between the bathroom and the bed, I'd be like bathroom straight up. Yeah. Well, what

do you mean? In other words,

if you had to solve for like, the better room in an apartment or home, yeah, you would get a nicer bathroom.

Yeah. In other words, like, let's say there was two, let's say there was two versus a no brainer. Let's say there was two bedrooms, one with a bathroom. But it was like, like, a garbage room. It it was actually somehow uncut, mentally uncomfortable to sleep there. But it had its own bathroom. That would be my room. Right versus the super nice one where you had to share the bathroom with like whoever else was in your house?

I feel like I'm a bedroom kind of guy. Yeah, not me. Now, because I'm so involved in my own phone when I'm using the toilet that like the out the outer external. You know, external environment doesn't affect me as much

well put this way. So Joshua is editor editor at large or editor, editor at large editor at large of a website called fatherly and hosts a podcast with the same name which deals with Dad issues. The Stasi hates fathers, by the way. Yeah, I read on text message. Yeah, she detests father's and I

would like to dig into but she says we can.

We do? We totally can. As long as we keep it on the semi food side, you'll notice that this is ostensibly a technically related food show, we will get to it. But essentially, but as a father, I would think that you would appreciate having two doors between you and the world. So in the bathroom, first of all, like my kids, especially Booker, my older son has been on the show a number of times former employee of Anastasia Lopez didn't get fired. People did not he did not get fired. They're still on good terms. So he doesn't quite understand the I'm in the bathroom. Don't speak to me. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? Like I'm in the bathroom. I am. Is this the only me time? Yes, me time? Like the dogs aren't there? Kids aren't there. No one's there me time.

I really hate being talked to him in the bathroom. Yeah, but I feel like some people it's okay with my son. While he's 17 he's not listening. Yeah. Although he might listen to the backlog. He demands company while he's going to the bathroom. That's his choice, though. Yeah, but it's his choice. Not mine. And like, it's not super. I mean, we talk it's like good quality time. I was also thinking this morning. How old are your kids?

They're 1714

Oh, so they're too old minor five and seven. So they're just getting out of it. But five watching a little kid poop is the most touching thing kids are face. They're trying so hard. You know like they're just really pushing it out. And it's adorable.

It's they're trying too hard. You got to soften up that stool.

Let's talk about food and diet. No, it's perfect transition. First of all a little another

fact and I'm not speaking out of turn here Anastasia, so she's not going to get mad at me that she loves it to Lee. The place Yeah. Does not like Italians because they only talk about Two things and Stassi what are those two things? And you're not even talking to your mind.

Yeah, you're so Off mic.

eating and pooping. Yeah. Yeah digested that true. That's all he talks about. If you listen into any conversation Italian is having Yeah, it's about food or whether they digested

and two things this assay and never heard her speak about in in when she's not working food, digestion, digestion. She does talk about digestion sometimes.

Well, you know, maybe Italy already had its cultural moment.

Oh, by the way, is that Northern and Southern or just No. Oh, I

because this is publicly aired. I'm just going to push back on that a little bit. I feel like I've talked to a fair number of Italians about subject matter falling outside of that cartoon. Not for Yeah, about other things politics.

Yeah, but I mean, I look this is the stasis point, not mine. So you have to go to the Stasi on this said nothing did nothing to do with it. Yeah. Okay.

Well, you know, your truth is your truth. Yeah. Speaking.

I don't believe that we have a caller on the air with a question about a talent. I really I don't believe in separate truths.

Oh, yeah. You know?

Alright, caller you're on the air. Let's talk about Italians. What do we got?

David? This is Preston DC from the Green Zone. Oh, how you doing? Good. Man. I was in New York this weekend. What's the book? Once the human condition Floyd? Love it? Yeah, well try to settle with every drink on the menu and have some questions about it? Yeah. So first of all, I wanted to know, I haven't spins all. But I know that this solid, the amount of solids of the rotor can contain is around 300 grams, right?

It can contain more it can contain up to the full capacity of the rotor. The issue is, is that the issue is is that the puck doesn't distribute evenly. So once you get over about 300, like odds are it'll start leaking out over one of the areas where it's built up more, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah, because, you know, I figured I could do it on leader too, you know, whatever, you know, at a time. But if I wanted to do enough for, let's say, a week's worth of service at the bar, I would need to do multiple, multiple loads. And I was wondering if there's any way to do it in volume without having multiple spins on?

Well, I mean, if you have infinite time, you can just do an initial spin, let a little bit leak out, and then do a Polish spin. And so that you'll you'll increase your ability to do without touching it depends on the Justino. But like for banana Giustino, you can't really do more than about two liters before you start getting some banana leaks. But if you do like a bunch of liters, and only stop at once it starts getting violently pissed off, they'll eventually get violently pissed off at you. But once you are in, it'll start leaking stuff out of the aeration cup, right? But it's your going to capture enough of your solids so that you can then just get it all on a polishing run. And it takes a lot physically longer. But it's no it's not attended time, if that makes sense.

Right, that makes sense. And so for the polishing on I could just stick. It can do the whole batch on continuous.

Yeah. Yeah. Because if there's if there's only like, if there's only a little bit in there, like there is in let's say, apple juice, or a grapefruit juice or orange juice, then, you know, I've never like usually the limitation is just my patience.

Well, I was thinking something more substantive, like bananas or dates or other dried fruits?

Sure, sure, sure. But on the second spin, right, so if you're just like letting it get a little bit cloudy, before you stop it and clear out the puck, but then on your second spin, then you can polish the whole second spin without touching it once.

Right, that makes sense. On the same subject, one of your bartenders mentioned, both Tecktonik Ultra SPL for modern and pantry. Yeah, but they mentioned it called Z one and z two. Yeah. What is that?

That's the Kiesel saw on the krytus. And those are the wine finding agents. And you can you can also buy them on Amazon but modernist pantry is the only one that sells the fungally based Titus and otherwise, you'd be put into people's stuff. But

anyway, so I have bought those anyways. So for those who, you know, he said he was using those as well.

Does he that he doesn't need to know that's not I mean, you can but now, right? Banana like banana wants to clarify. A banana wants to clarify, dude. Yeah, banana totally wants to clear that's Joshua, by the way.

I'm an expert on clarification. Really? For real? Yeah,

he's he's, is that true? Because I am an actual expert. On clarification. Are you also actually an expert?

I mean, like I'm a writer, so I tried to write

now okay, oh, I get it. I get it. It will help it settle faster on the polishing right So what I recommend is I would do the entire initial run, just SPL clear out your solids and then if you want to flock that stuff harder you can hit it with the D one d two while you're waiting. Someone looked at us held their stomach and made the I feel sick look, they look directly at us and gave us this.

Those guys yeah, they're Italian guy and he's like,

I look at these guys I want to eat but I need to poop. I think the guy with a scarf.

The movements are a little loose in him.

That's external Star Wars mixed with Italian coop movements are loosened. That's one yeah, they're getting super meta here. Anyway, let us know how it works. And I was glad you made it to the bar.

The keto songs are useful not just in high acid applications.

Yes, in the in the large centrifuge, they are mostly used in high acid applications. But in the spins all I tend to use them in any application because they increase settling and compacting. They really they increase the compacting rate.

Okay. All right.

Now, what was we talking about Italians, and you didn't agree. All right. So

before you get into you actually have another caller on the air. Is this one actually going to ask about a town? Yeah, no, they promised there was the question was about Italians. Richard, I

asked one question.

You're not a caller. What?

What was that guy? I don't What was he talking? I did not understand any personal calls

between DAVE Oh,

Joshua, back when I told you that we were a family show and be a political I should have also mentioned we're very niche. Yeah, we're like extremely niche show, or can you just tell me like in one word, what? Just what? So when we first started umpteen million years ago, I would have said for those who don't know, we're talking about clarifying juicers and liquors and centrifuges which separate out solids based on density using typical force. I would have purchased everything was a Who do you think there was a he was a bar in DC? I know. Yeah. Yeah. So and they work with meant, etc, etc. Anyway, so I should maybe go back to the way we used to talk because at this point, I'm like, anyone whose ears happened to be hitting this are like, I don't know how many times I gotta hear about today. Oh, my God. I

loved it. But it was like rarely in my life. Do I hear a solid block of 10 minutes where I which I know is in English, but I have absolutely no idea. That Welcome to my life, but I really liked the line that Banette what is it? Bananas? Christina? Yeah, that's a no no, no, no banana see clarification. Yeah, they

they want to clarify, they clarify heart. It's just happened, man is want to clarify, it just so happens that one of the logical first of all, like, half at least half the stuff in life is luck, right? So it happens to be that the first thing I attempted to clarify was bananas. And they have to clarify very well. So who knows where Anastasia and I would be in life? If we had chosen something that's more difficult to clarify.

Let me ask you, I know we have a caller but like, are some things in the world? They tend towards clarification and some things in the world tend towards the obfuscation? For

sure. liquidy liquid wise? Oh, yeah, sure. I guess like, well, both probably, huh? Yes.

Yeah. Do you tend toward clarification?

So here's the thing, I tend to be very clear about very obscure points. So I wrote a book is, first of all, I wrote a book where literally, it's about minutiae, trying to make clear points about stuff that very few people care about. It's pretty well actually, but the Stasi who uses it famously only to keep hot and cold foods separate. It's not too heavy. And yet it oh, you know what, I should just make you a piece of styrofoam with two masonite boards be lighter even than liquid intelligence.

Are you someone Anastasia, who tends towards clarification in your life or obfuscation? Oh, no,

she's clear telling you how she feels. But everything else pretty much. What do you think?

I guess that's true.

Anyway, caller Yeah. You have a question about Italians. I hear. No, I do not know Matthew is a liar. Oh, my God. All right, Matthew, you're a liar. I no longer trust you. I don't believe you. You're a liar. What is your question?

Hey, oh, this is Devin. I called in a couple of weeks ago about that gumbo small says don't have an update on that but had a question that sort of move. It's related. Starting with experimentation on printer marinating to me. Okay. Real quick. I was thinking I have a chamber vacuum machine. If I pull a full vacuum on that. What would be the pressure equivalent? That the mean would experience if I were to put just unsealed corncob and furniture is

that it's not just the atmosphere or it didn't ask a good question. It's not It's okay. It's a good question. I'll go back to my old old Dave old cooking issues. And so we're talking about here is using shifting pressures to increase either marination or penetration of flavorful things into, in this case, meats. Now, when you're using a vacuum, what you're doing is you're removing all of the air. So if there's zero air on the inside of a product you get, there's like zero net effect on it, then when you release the pressure, when you release the vacuum, the 15 psi comes in, and it's like hitting it with a 15 psi kind of wave of pressure. Now, what's the effect on the product? Well, when you're putting something under high vacuum, it tends to boil apart, so you're actually separating the fibers. So there is some effect of fiber separation, if you have a high enough vacuum, there's some effect to fiber separation due to the boiling out of the of the water as it as it turns to a vapor under the low pressure, and then you'll get some injection into that space when the when the pressure hits. Now there are now in the professional world, they use vacuum tumbling, and it opens up the pores and interstitial places inside of the meat and then they tumble under a vacuum. And those people I've never run the tests claim that if you suck too hard of a vacuum, it actually hinders that sort of action, because instead of just opening it up, it'll open and then collapse the meat back together again. Is it true? Is it false? I don't know. But what happens under pressure is you're taking something and forcing past atmospheric way past atmospheres. So the most pressure you're ever going to get, let's say you had a sponge, the most pressure you're ever going to get in a vacuum scenario is 15 psi over pressure to inject into something right? In a pressure scenario, you can easily do 60 psi, which is four times more pressure than you get out of a vacuum. So pressure is always more effective at jamming something into something than is than is a vacuum. Does that make sense? Yep. Yeah,

no, um, if I were to just use co2, do you know what effect that has on the meat

I don't it will have some effect it'll shift the pH also when you cook it, the co2 is going to vaporize back out of it. I don't know what it's going to do for instance to the color of it if I don't might have no effect on the on the redox state of the meat I don't know. Realize though, that the co2 will go into solution in the meat and when you release the pressure you'll get some bubbling of the you'll get like some bubbling so if you fully carbonate the meat it will like I remember back when I was first doing force carbonation people like everyone wanted to carbonate solids and I was like first of all I don't really like the taste of carbonated fruit because it tastes like a spoiled food critic. Back me up. Yeah, yep. spoiled. So I'm like not like that. So but they're like can you carbonate ice cream answer no, you can carbonate, the liquids that are not frozen in ice cream but it's hard to get and also, I once blew up a Taylor ice cream machine at the French Culinary Institute Sam Mason ice cream savant came over and we tried to hook a co2 tank up to a Taylor ice cream machine. We blew all the seals it sprayed sprayed bass every first of all, if you're going to do it, what kind of a moron starts with with ice cream bass instead of with like a sorbet this idiot this idiot anyway, so and I was never forgiven by the pastry department. But the point is that carbonating is a pain in the butt but I did eventually do wine jelly. So like gelatin set. So I would do is I would, I would force carbonate warm gelatin at very high pressure, very high pressure, like 100 psi in soda bottles with carbonated wine and gelatin. And then you would cut the bottle open to get out the carbonated champagne jail jello. And it was so much force on the inside of it that like the gel would if you didn't make a hard gel, it would self rupture. It would sit there and like you know, it would like Alien on you. It would like dry. Great. It was good. It was good. It sounds dramatic. Yeah, yeah, everyone likes everyone likes

to make ice cream in some imaginary scenario in like a hyperbaric chamber product dries with co2, freezing the bass in there and whatnot, there's no way to get a carbonated ice cream.

If you go with extremely high pressure, right, you will get some sensation. The issue is the question you have to ask yourself is How cold is it? Right? So if you're taking it at you know it so if you're taking it at draw temperature, which is about what 22 Fahrenheit somewhere in there, you're going to have that's what you would draw it out of the machine at a you know you're going to have x I'd have to look at the curves but you're going to have x liquid left in it not frozen. That liquid can be carbonated the solids cannot. So people like what they make carbonated slushies, yes, there are ice crystals and there is liquid it is the liquid that is carbonated now After ice crystals there is no carbonated. In the normal pressure regimes there is no carbonated ice. There is carbonated liquid mixed with ice crystals. So slushies are easy ice cream, not as easy. You could probably get some sensation of it if you use extremely high pressures, but then how the heck you're gonna freeze it? Yada, yada. Gotcha. Very good. This is interesting stuff. I appreciate it. But you can use Pop Rocks, you can fold Pop Rocks, but they might melt so you probably have caught the Pop Rocks and fold them in anyway, let us know how your gumbo sausage works. All right. So are we done with Italians? Do you want to talk more about how you Italian poop says know

what's going on on your phone? That's tough. Yeah,

I think she's see. I'm glad Joshua you were here because she doesn't pay attention to anything I say anything. Call her say she sits there. It used to be she shops for shoes. Never buys real. Yeah. Never buys them. I don't know why everybody never does. Zappos. Joshua. This is the most on mic time. mustaches. hadn't any show in like the last six months. Is that true? She just stares at her phone and hates. So check it out. I know. I know. I know. It

participates sometimes, but like four feet away from the microphone. But today you sir got her to be Yeah, on

mic. Well, it's such an interesting dynamic to walk into about certain

things. Like

not food. So this shows out. Mostly hatred, hatred, hatred. Yeah. Okay, she got called out we won't get back into like her recent hatred rants, because she got called out by a number of people on the Twitter.

Oh, no. But now that lady will be happy to be really so I hate I hated on beta males. It turns out that

it's not a it's not a beta fish that happens

to be male, right? It's like the opposite of an alpha male. Right?

Everybody's supposed to hate alpha males, right? Culturally, it's already will

love this. That hates on me. I was dating a beta male.

How many days? A couple weeks? How many days? Oh, no.

Two, no more. Four. And he dumped me? Oh,

well, he knew what you didn't like. My friend. He's like, I have to I have to assert myself. We're done.

Beta meals? I got my I got when I told him in the beginning. I was like, I don't do you.

And he's like, turns out I don't

wait. A beta male is an approach. I mean, also, he's my friend. I mean, you might have might have misread whether he's been

there Alpha self proclaimed. Yeah. Wait. My friend Alpha when this happened? either male

or females, beta males do not self proclaim as beta males

to anti beta males a beta and alpha an alpha and beta clothing?

100%. No beta male would say I am a beta male, which is a clear, concise, forceful statement. Right? Only an alpha male would say that.

I have to say, I liked this guy. That's true. And good. Points. Yeah. Making excellent points. All right. So back to food. You have written several books as well. What term Do you prefer? When you're writing with somebody? What term Do you prefer as your what's the term of art that you use?

CO writer co right? Because I mean, it's something that we negotiate in the contract as well. Like, if I'm not listed at all, which hasn't been the case thus far, because my egos way too big. I would be a ghostwriter. Right. But you know, whether you're on the cover, what size your name is it with? Is it and all those things are subject to endless negotiation

when your name is on the Okay, so let's just talk about it. It's not out yet. In fact, normally, by the way, Joshua, if you do this, again, I need a copy of your book so that I can read it. We could talk about it, but apparently you don't have a copy of your book. I don't. I'm that guy that will actually read your entire book. I'll

send it show up. I'll send it to you for the future. This is not his fault. By the way. This was 100% or

so. The chef and he was on what Top Chef? He was on Top Chef. Yeah. Which I have not seen because I don't watch Food TV. Yeah. Understandable. Kwame Anwar. He had a restaurant in DC like a high concept restaurant in DC. Yeah.

kith and kin, right. No, no, sorry. It's called the shop.

The new one. Yeah. It's now about to like in the next 25 seconds open another place. Right. Like, like right now.

Philly wing fry. Yeah. So. So we got the book deal two years ago. The book is called notes from a young black chef. It's out I think in May. How old is he March? He's 29. Yeah, he's really young. And we got the book deal two years ago. So he was 27. Cool. It's out by kenaf. Yeah, so two years ago, he was about to open this restaurant called the shawl Bizu which is a was a 16 seat. super expensive. The most expensive restaurant I think in DC are from minibar. We got the deal. The restaurant opened shut virtually immediately, three months just it was an unmitigated I would say disaster for a lot of reasons. We were there the whole time. You know, I live in New York so I was like making the trip but I was the, you know, I was down there for opening night opening night when Tom seat Sama, the critic of the Washington Post Washington Post. He was the second person through that kitchen. And it was just a, it was the partners weren't restaurant people. They didn't understand restaurants. Kwame was young, and didn't have a lot of institutional support to run a restaurant. I'd like the EMP level that he wanted. It was just kind of impossible. And because DC is the market that DC is because Kwame is not from DC. He was met with extreme hostility, I would say Oh, yeah. $195 for a tasting menu from a young chef with no track record without wine and service. That's aggressive pricing. And like I'm of two minds one, I'm not of two minds of one mind. You charge that much money and you have to be on your A game. They're just there's no excuses.

You have to you have to comp any anything anything bad happens you have to cop out because because not supposed to.

That's someone's money. Yeah. You know, it's not like you can have a like if you if you needed a period to get your feet under you charge less or

do like a one year friends and family or something. Yeah, but he didn't do it. Well, so. So here's the question, because it's actually if it's about this kind of stasis still reading or reading or Zappos. She's on Amazon. Shopping for hurts

my feelings a little bit. Yeah. Oh, get used to it. Well, I feel like I should tell her that. It's distracting. Come on.

Yeah, it's terrible. It is horrifying. But I feel like this is actually interesting stories this in the book because then it makes me want to read it. Yeah,

that's the whole thing in the book is so basically so the restaurant closes, he kind of goes on this journey and opens another restaurant called kith and kin, which is like, vastly more affordable and kind of and has been very successful. It's at the Intercontinental Hotel in the wharf, which is like a new development in DC. Yeah, that's a big part of the book. Some of his child, you know, he grew up in the Bronx. He's half Nigerian went to live in Nigeria for two years as a teenager because he was getting in trouble up in the Bronx, came back hustled his way through culinary school, worked at craft work to EMP were to per se, experienced a lot of racism in fine dining kitchens. It's no shock. Yeah. But interestingly, I don't feel like it's talked about. names aren't often named.

So it isn't. You're not You're not mentioning who it was. That was evil.

Yeah, we do.

It's, but actually, the kitchens can be horrible places. I think everyone a lot of people who listen to this who work in kitchens know, yeah, like a lot of people are trying to change the culture, but it is not, has not historically been.

Yeah. But I think the first step is, as I'm sure a lot of people know this just being honest and open about about what's going on, you know, and not sugarcoating it or not feeling any sort of shame and calling it out for what it is. The journey, the interesting part for me of writing the book, what as a co writer is, and wearing my hat is a critic and sort of like a judgmental person in general. It's like I wanted Kwame to be apologetic and like cop to his hubris in opening the sharp issue. And he never fully does, because he doesn't see it that way. And as a writer, as a co writer, I eventually came around to seeing why he thought the way he did and why he wasn't really willing to issue a mia culpa and tell you, I shouldn't have done that I should have been more humble, I should have followed the rules and all these things. Because when you look at the path of his life, you know, he's like a poor kid from the Bronx. He's a black, poor black kid from the Bronx, if he had followed the rules and done everything, according to the system, the system is not designed to reward him. You know, the system. There's there's systemic and structural structural inequality, that if he didn't hustle, and if he didn't follow his own rules and go out and then break rules, he probably wouldn't get to the place where he is. So it was like a learning experience for me to check my own gut instinct of what a failure what the proper response to a failure should be.

So who am I? So when you're writing like that? Are you trying to write it in his voice? Or are you writing? So you? So you have to get into his head? You have to understand his position? Yeah. Because if you don't, you can't write the book.

Right. So it was a process? I think, so I'm writing a. I'm now co writing a bunch of other cookbooks as well. At one point, I was trying to just do his spoken voice. But that's not really it's a different voice. It's a different medium. So he uses a different voice for writing and he needs to do. That written voice wasn't quite developed yet, because he's not a writer, you know. So I think I veered a little too informal, then I veered a little too formal to write early. And then we kind of reached this good ground, which it's, it's kind of his voice, his soul, his spirit. But my words and like, I'm not a chef, it's not my story. But I am a professional writer. And so I can try to shape and tease out aspects of the story and make it flow.

I don't know if you know this. Most chefs don't actually want to be presented with what they sound like.

Most. Everyone doesn't want to be presented with what they sound like. Yeah, it's like, you need to chefs.

Only hang out with them. Yeah. And like bar people. But you don't I mean, like, anyway. But like, are you interested in becoming like long term? Like, there are some writers who become the voice of particular people?

No, like I'm doing a book now with Donna Leonard from il buco. And

I haven't been there in a while. It's great. You should go. I remember when they first got hit, what go places, I don't really go out. That's not a dead thing. I'm either working or I'm home. But the the, I remember what they remember. No one remembers. But when the Board of Health first started nuking people on, on having vacuum machines, in restaurants, like a year after it. Ill Bucco got nailed very first people in the city were nailed for doing their own show luminary doing their own salumi and we're all like, oh, man, now this we're I'm sure they were also I tried to interview them about it because I was writing something for food arts now defunct food arts back of the time back when the great Michael Bader Berry was still alive. And yeah, we were all like we were you know, everyone's been waiting for that shoe to drop and then we're like, Oh, my God is typical shoe gonna drop is the so many shoes to drop in the city.

But that raid and the guy named the guy's name is Bernardo Flores. He's the head of the slimming program. He lost his entire program. It's just cleared out by the DOH. Yeah. And that was actually the impetus for opening Elementary, which has its own very by the book very, like code driven salumi program. Was that rate. I mean, that was a huge blow, I think for Donna. Yeah, well,

for her, and for a lot of other people that were looking to them. For, you know, what was gonna was gonna happen. I mean, that it sucked. To be honest, it sucked real hard. But the I mean, what sprung from that is a line of kind of much more educated chefs of the next generation who started knowing that they were going to get their behinds handed to them. And so they start with Hassett plans. And they, you know, it's, I guess it's good. I mean, there are some people who I know, in the early days, you know, wanted to do a lot of kind of interesting, a lot of interesting salumi projects that probably wouldn't get pass approved, so like, slightly less acidic, you're slightly less of a pH drop off of their of their sausages. You know, but whatever. I mean, it's not the job of the DOH to allow you to do everything you want. It's the job of them to make you safe,

right? I mean, it's balancing innovation and public health. So I'm doing the data book. I'm doing Wilson tangs book for no mwah Oh, nice.

Which is it work with the Museum of food and drink? Oh, by the way, though, the Stasi is sponsoring this show you were in the bathroom when it happened. But how the heck is the Museum of food and drink have money as fast as does that mean? I'm sponsoring my own show? They're asking me for money. At the end of the year, they're like, Do you are you on the board of directors, you gotta give your money. So I can pay for what for my own show. It's like it's it's perpetual motion machine people. It doesn't work. Anytime you try to present a perpetual motion machine where you get like a Ponzi scheme saying you're going to put money in you're gonna get more money back out. No, it doesn't work that way. But the real winners

are the listeners. I don't know about that. But I was just gonna just to finish up that thought those they have different wildly different voices, you know. So I'm more interested like Don has different voice and Kwame Kwame has a different voice. And Wilson Wilson has a different voice from Donna. And something that I like as a writer is to be able to find their voices and work with them to craft that. That to me right now. seems more interesting than being long term with one, you know, with one chef,

I see you also wrote food and beer with Daniel burns. And I can never pronounce his name from evil twin

happy. Yep. Hey, yep. Hey.

So that must have been fun. He's a cool guy. Daniel burns, Matthew. Math and philosophy major. Oh, yeah. Interesting.

He's worked in cross paths with him. Yeah, I remember.

Yeah, he was at Momofuku. He was in the research kitchen for a while there with Dan Felder. And, you know, he's been at all the right places. It's true that I mean, like, did the No Ma he did the mama fuku Yeah, The Fat Duck. He did the he did Noma.

Right. Yeah, artists with

all the fancies plays are gonna just fancy it's like all of the Oh, Koran

places. Yeah, he's a super talented chef.

How's that book to write?

You know, again, that there was a book I had no idea about beer going into it. I'd written a review for the observer about tourists. And I think I wrote something for the times two are still open. Right? Horses still open? Yeah. And now they're actually venturing back into the tasting menu. Land. But I just got through this,

you that don't know. It was like a pairing man. Like the it was a pairing menu, but done only with beers, but incredibly well chosen beers. And you know, it's kind of a new concept. Yeah, it was a new concept. If it opened today, it would be a new concept. Yeah, I

was blown away. I mean, I was in em. I was blown away by it. And I'm still in awe of that, that those those meals were some of the best meals I've had. I did. I do feel like there's still residual prejudice against high end Beer pairings. Even though more and more people are doing it. The idea of it just didn't cohere for them.

If we have 8 million people here the thing is if they opened it in a place that had more foot foot foot traffic, they put it because like, if you can tap into the 8 million people that are here you can be at you know, like we are niche. By the way, Anastasia is so bored by our conversation and not able to use her phone. If she's hitting her forehead against her mind.

Veterans. What is going on? i Let's just take Anastasia check in. What is going on with you right now?

It's not it's not right now. Really? She's also Joshua. I'm gonna pay for this later.

Yeah, you are. What emails?

I'm gonna walk out of here.

Yeah. Oh, here any 806 Hey, man, that's garbage. I thought I liked you. Alright, why? What is that, you know you worked at this radio station before is that we eat the pizza afterwards. That's the only thing we get. That's where I pay money to the museum so that they can do for my own show. And then we get a pizza. And that's what we get

pizza twice.

So we let's

just say that there was a master of deflection from Anastasia telethia.

Hello, and welcome to what the Stasi does, she's, she's like, she's like, if I get something shiny and wave it in Dave's face. He'll start ranting about that and forget that I just shafted him.