Hello, everybody, and welcome to a brand new series on heritage radio network called the culinary call sheet where we give a peek into the back kitchen of culinary media. I'm your host, April Jones,

and I'm your co host, Darren bresnitz. Part of why we started the show was to offer an unofficial mentorship for anyone who's interested in learning about all aspects of food and video, whether that's TV, social media online, or just something you want to do for fun.

Absolutely what was once niche or a little silly, as I'm sure you remember, Darren, when we started out, this man has now become such a massive playing field for so many creatives using food as the medium.

It's something that has driven us professionally and personally, for so many years. What excites me the most about this show is that we're going to sit down with some of the industry leaders to hear how they made it and what drew them into this industry.

With 20 years in the culinary production game ourselves. We're hoping we can give through these conversations an insider's view into personal stories from the field, as well as an in depth behind the scenes look into some of the most popular food programming. In today's evolving culinary media landscape.

We'll be covering everything from how to style your food, to how to license IP, to developing your own ideas, and some tips from the masters of how to host your own show.

Yeah, it's a little bit of conversation, how to and how do you do the things that you do in color media, which I'm so excited about? I love so many of the guests that are coming on this season. We have talent from Food Network from Vice media eater refinery 29,

we've met some of the best people in the world both in front of and behind the camera. And we're bringing them all together to share their stories, their delicious adventure and their unique journey into this crazy world.

So to be the first to hear our episodes when they launched this fall, go to wherever podcasts are streaming and hit subscribe and make sure to give us a follow at the Culinary call sheet on Instagram.

This episode of Cooking issues is brought to you by Bob's Red Mill an employee owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades

with Bob's Red Mill. You're not just getting quality, you're getting flavor pet healthy food that tastes great.

Visit Bob's Red mill.com to learn more and use the code cooking issues. That's one word all caps cooking issues for 25% off your order

Hello, this is Dave Arnold, your host coming to you live on heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to early 1245 Roberta's pizzeria in Bushwick. Jordan as usual with Anastasia the hammer Lopez How you doing does what good? Yeah. Got David booth. Good. Good. We got longtime friend as our guests you're going to want to call in all of your A Maura Margo or Amaury What do you call the man all of your drink related all of your Alton Brown related all of your any kind of like if you were like very long stirring spoons you're gonna want to call in your long stirring spoon questions to southern Eagles it with this in the in the state Hey buddy. Happy

to see you. Good to see you.

And a if you also have a show on heritage area networking want to tell the people that?

Absolutely we're the speakeasy Damon belting and I air every Wednesday at 2pm. And of course podcasts on all platforms ready for that? Yeah.

So those of you who've listened to show for a long time know that Damon volti is a twin. He's one of the gays one of the culinary slash bar twins, one of the many New York identical twins identical Yeah, yeah. Not not one of these like, you know, fraternal twins. Oh, there

are differences. Oh, yeah. So

what are the differences between the bowties I actually don't know.

The news. So I heard you know, the

new facial recognition iPhone. Yeah. Damon can open his brother's phone.

Oh, that awesome. So that's like, that's a recipe for fu right there. Oh, yeah. All right. Identical twins fingerprints the same as well. Are they different? I have no idea. I just know it's creepy. It is it is some serious and creepy say to some creepy because you see this thing about space the other day where they had an identical twin one. It's been a long time in space. And they came back and they're like interesting news. Your jeans change when you've been up in space for a long time. The guys in space had a smile on his face. Like, buddy, wipe that smile off your face. You know what that means? You just You just got mutated buddy. Right? Because, you know, it's like so much radiation up there in space. Yeah, yeah, I

did read that. Actually. It's pretty crazy. Yeah,

it's crazy. So

according to the internet, identical twins do not have the same fingerprints, man. The internet's

fast on this stuff. Yeah. Dave can talk first. Yeah, Dave. Hey, this Dave. That like Dave here in this side of the microphone has like marshmallow thumbs and so I cannot type quit. Luckily on a phone,

I just wrote my entire book on an iPhone, your liar. I'm crediting the iPhone in my book, as in to say written on iPhone seven.

Is it one law?

I don't really need some recognition. Yeah,

I'm trying to help them out. Yeah.

So I was thinking of getting an iPad actually to write that because I can carry it around with me. Because I was like, oh, you know, you can use that stylus but it's not a mouse. I'm sorry. Like someone my age wants a mouse. We just want a mouse

that what you want.

I want a mouse.

I mean, your age. I'm older than you.

So don't you want your birthday letter and tech guide people do people know I'm not a tech guy. I own I own multiple businesses with people.

I own multiple businesses. I've got a radio show. I just wrote a book and this is my only computing device. My phone. This is your

saying you wrote that because you don't own a word processor. Correct. Your other word processor is a brother word for pre touch Printer.

Just checks out. He never answers my emails. Yeah, who

does know Dave? Oh. Yeah. Anyway, calling your Southern and or other cooking related questions to 71849721. Looker wants me to say hold up, hold up, Sam 184972128. And also Anastasia, Anastasia Lopez, lead everyone to believe that Jim Lee not that you're a constellation guests other know that Jim Lee. The bread guy was going to be on this week. Factory bakery. In fact, Anastasia. That is

incorrect.

But it is. Next week, next week there. Alright, so we're gonna say so

bad. I was ready for some deep master baking today.

I was gonna say that Booker wants me to say that it's no longer Take Your Child to Work life because he has a job.

Yeah, he's actually this is the first time he's working. Without me there without without Anastasia. They're so safe.

Child labor laws in place. Here we succeed, man. You're 16 Yeah.

Now kids grow up fast. I started when I was 14

working. Yeah, but you know, that was when we were it was a different time. Dave. Yeah,

that hasn't changed. You can still work when you're 14. Kenya. Yeah, Pennsylvania. Anyway, I don't know about

Pennsylvania. He's like in Western.

Real forward thinking over there in

western Pennsylvania can but only if you're working underground. In the mines. Alright, so what do you got for us? What's going on today?

I was just swinging by to say hello now I got nothing on the spot.

You got nothing? Well, I mean, I don't have nothing. What do we have going on? What's going on in the bar world?

I just pulled the wool over a shitload of people's eyes and on my Instagram, I April fooled the hell out of them. What do you do? I just posted a picture of a bunch of fresh bottles of juice and a shaker and I said, we're changing some programs. I never said the words juice. I never said the words. Shaker but I in my caption, I just said programs changing over here. We're really excited to come see us blah, blah, blah, and just absolute crap ton of responses.

So it's really easy that don't know like, Souther, did you open that? But he said, Did you open that seven

years ago, march 21. We just turned seven years old. And I'm already Margo, right.

And that ship for those of you don't need to go, but it's a it's small so it fills up quickly. Yeah, but tell him to tell him the basis of the program.

So at Amaury Margo, which means love and bitters in Italian, are so rare that rather than Spanish, which is goofy, because most of the stuff on on my bar is Italian. We only serve stirred bitter cocktails using lots of amaro and tincture bitters, I probably have the largest selection anywhere in the world of tincture and portable bitters. And a tiny bar that's 240 square feet. And we for seven years, I've only stirred cocktails.

Not only the only sort of cocktails, but no juice. No, yeah, exactly.

That's part of the program, right? So we use only cane syrup. And we only use that in old fashions. Other than that we have no sugar, we don't use any syrups or juices. We don't use anything non alcoholic. Really, the only non alcoholic ingredient on the entire bar is water and that aforementioned syrup. So it's all spirit is spirit for drinks. So I posted this photo of a bunch of juice on the bar, and people just went apeshit

Well, I think like people are like, you know, why would you go against your stick? is exactly. There's plenty of there's plenty of places I could go if I want juice. So

if I want a bee's knees or whatever, I can go to juice and see wow, why

wouldn't go there man wouldn't go there. So the

so it's still Passover. Really, it's just like an eight day thing. On Hanukkah, not to live and listen, you're gonna have a holiday may as well make it a holidays.

Yeah, yeah. So. So do you hate it? Like when? When people want to say are you the guy who goes all out and says Amari? Like? Pluraleyes? Isn't a Mari is the plural? Or do you say a morose? Are you pissed off either way,

or I'm not pissed either way, but it depends on the usage. You know, on the menu since day one, we've had a cocktail that involves eight different Omari, right and that cocktail is called on the menu that ate amaro Sazerac, and people call me out and they say, shouldn't it be the eighth Amari says rack? And I say, Well,

I didn't eat three beans salad today, right? Three bean salad though is a three day bean salad. But you don't say three beans salad unless you're Cesare Casella and he says always beans no matter how many beans are involved with beans, beans, beans, everybody rains things right? Yeah, the man cannot say the word being without adding an S to it but very very Cesare beans by the way, I hope are we gonna are we gonna be able to carry? Well you're not you're not working on it so you don't know I want to carry chairs raise him at the bar. Yeah you shouldn't I told him you were going to what do you say? He said don't care I don't care obese like, like anyway I give no means anyway so they got here's the thing so the with the MRO I'm asking some questions. Why did they ruin zuka? Well, for those of you that don't know zuka is a like one of these class called a barbell row, which is like a nice bitter supposedly it's rhubarb doesn't taste like rhubarb. Like you think of rhubarb and

Chinese rhubarb and how rhubarb arrows are made is it's It's Chinese word, which is a special, you know, a select type of reward. And they typically use it in a maturation and they typically use it when it's dried. When Chinese rhubarb is dried, it smells and tastes smoky. Like it's been smoked, though it has not. So you get this real, smoky, earthy Amaro, you know, when you make a robot, because you can, in particular, is what you want.

Yeah, so the best known one of these here in the US zuka. And for years, we loved it. And then they change the damn recipe. What's up with that?

So yeah, this is happening a lot with Amari in general, there. See, I use the plural. Everybody is getting on board with the notion of cocktails, which of course we created here in the United States. You know, the rest of the world still really doesn't make cocktails. They sort of look at us funny when we talk about mixing things, but don't don't tell the English that Yeah, so the deal is, yeah, so the deal is the Germans there's lots of lots of Mario are stepping forward and saying oh, if people are going to use our stuff in cocktails, they need to be stronger because most of them already hover around like 23% You know, pretty low proof, which has no not enough of a backbone even though they've got big flavors to stand up in cocktail. So my I haven't talked to anybody but you know, they change their recipe and they basically doubled the proof so it's a lot higher and proofs a lot hotter which changes how you drink it but I think they're they're aiming to be the top sales flavor just doesn't taste as good changes the flavor of course

doesn't taste good. I like a lot of the new high proof ones like I like the even though they had a horrible post the what is it the weather it's out of my head Luca? Lucado Yeah, Lucano they had a horrible Instagram post. Like a couple like horrible like for International Women's Day was so like, so bad that we're like, I don't know if I can use the condo anymore. But see this Yes, the terrible you see that one stuff so anyway, but then I was just like they're like, I don't know it was it was some horrible like, you know like one of those like, Man Ray things or something of a woman as a musical instrument. They we love women they're amazing loucon or some lady Yeah, something just like you know, off the wall. Not cool. But they make a high proof one I think is actually works really well.

They do genomics one as well. They came out with one that's 70 Proof General. tenders like that

you like that one you like the original one. I like

them both because I can use them differently. But the thing is what we just said both right, so zuka decided to change theirs and not offer the other one as well. The condo still offers the one that they've always offered gr offers the one they've always offered. I think that was there to do because bigger mistake is

so Jack Schramm our wants and future head bartender. Yeah. A like he has. He has some sort of like zuka sense. So like if he walks into any bar, like he won't even look at the back bar and he'll sit at a table and then they'll say they have a bottle of Zuko on their back bar. Right there and then like and then like he like he has like an eye for old zuca He wants walked into a liquor store with me we were looking for something else. And he was like they have the old zuca I'm buying it all and he just bought it buys it off for his personal consumption.

I wonder if we could you know we have some sway we could reach out to them and see if they'll you know relaunch the old formula. Yeah, did they have like people backpedal remember New Coke?

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Pepsi clear. Come on. Did you ever go to that? Have you ever been to the that? Amaro like tradeshow festival they have in Milan. Yeah, I got

to go to that. I think it's three years ago. Fascinating because it's not just Amaro. It's also like this giant food festival. So as a former chef like that rang my bills as well. It

problem is is freaking useless. Because you're like, Hey, let's go to the States. And we're like, no,

no, no, no, we're doing this for us. And it was also a goddamn Disney World. It's a massive, massive fairgrounds that they hold this thing on. It's incredible.

And we've talked about this on the air before stars but Italians are so funny because they're Drink, like as much of that as they want, and then wine with their meal but they're like, Hmm, we don't want to drink no drink. Yeah, you alcoholic. Like if you want to have a cocktail before dinner, they're like figured out but then meanwhile they're pounding these DJ Steve's and wine throughout the whole thing but they don't consider that drinking. Yeah, exactly. It's

very cultural. It's very, this is just how it's done. We're not. And I think I love that, you know, here in America, we say, Oh, get out of work and it's happy hour, we're gonna go somewhere where the drinks are half price and double the strength and we're gonna get pretty wasted real quick. And then go home and eat like a blue box and macaroni and cheese and pass out and, and wake up the next day and do it again. Whereas these guys

wow, that's what that's that's your impression of

American drinkers? Yeah. You know, not the folks who come

to when you go to Mr. Margo, and you see southern behind the bar. This is what he thinks about you. This is what he thinks about Joe See, I'm

serving the Italian mac and cheese at the barn. Yeah.

You know, but in Italy, you know, you have the aperitif hour, which is not an hour it's it's the aperitif afternoon, you you go to lunch and you have a you know, a companion soda. Or maybe you go so far to have like a spa Yato and then you kind of don't stop drinking these low ABV cocktails until it's dinnertime. Hey, Oh, hey. That's Peter. Trying to speak Italian.

What is that? I don't know. What is that? Dave? No, no, something on the internet. Something on the internet. Something on the internet. Oh, that's like the Stasi when we were at the airport.

We had just gotten back from England, right? That's

a separate story. That's not it's not related to what we're talking about now. So he can't We can't bring it up.

Well, we got to call her when you and when you wrap that one up.

Call her call me on the air obits.

What's her name? Hey, hello. Hey, Dave. Yes. Hi. So yeah, first time caller longtime listener. I think I started listening to your show in like 2012. Ouch.

So while looking for punishment

onto the archive, slowly but surely. I was listening to your show from last week yesterday. I actually. So your first caller, talking about wild keys is awesome. We're gonna Ayahuasca right.

Oh, are you the person who texted me and not texted me tweeted me and said that she was confusing to things because if not good, either way. Good. Explain the difference because I didn't have a chance to go look it up.

Okay, so I'm also glad you guys have a bitters expert on because OS Lagonda is definitely a part of bitters that I've made. I grew up in an apothecary my mom's been making bitters since I was like six years old. So herbal medicines, like a big part of my cooking career. I've been cooking since I was like, 14. So Antofagasta is a supplement is used to make a wild cheese. Sort of like I've ever heard. I like yarn. That metal cheese from Cornwall. Yeah. So it's, it's the same, same sort of process. They use the berries of this stuff. It's called indian ginseng in India, it's use all over India uses a tea. It's a long life like an elixir. Supplement, people in the US have been getting really into it because it's like really good at lowing lowering cortisol and stress. It's actually probably exactly what your caller needs to be taking. It has nothing to do with Ayahuasca. They're not the same thing at all right?

Not a hallucinogen. Right. I

know. I wrote the wrong thing on the show. But that's what she said. That's what she said

on the air. That's what she said it

was like that. But she did say it's not

a hoot. Oh, she's not a hallucinogen. This stuff is not going to send you on a terrible trip.

Right. Right. We got a lot of calls and emails about that. So I apologize to the Iosco lobby out there. Sorry. Like there is one. Alright, so go ahead call it it's probably somewhere in Silicon Valley.

Is this stuff tastes good? My main thing is, is it stuff tastes good? Well,

I mean, as a as a, as a component and a bitters. You know, almost all bitters are originally a medicine, right? That's why they're created. It's a way to take the medicinal plants around us and preserve them. And then that is what you know, slowly turned into the art form. That is, it is now today.

So what I'm hearing from you is no it does not taste good.

I wouldn't say it's great. It tastes like a bitters you know,

okay, give me give me example. Like I like I mean, I like like Jen Chen. I like that stuff in the proper amount like with other flavors. I like the flavor it but whereas like, what's something I find unpleasant? What's a bitter flavor that I find unpleasant? In any quantity? I don't know, I guess bitter flavors. I don't find them. unpleased. I kept trying to think of a can you can either of you guys think of a bitter flavor that's just inherently unpleasant. But I don't like okay, I don't like no offense to Philip Duff because I always work with them. But Pharaoh Kena has the taste of iron in a drink is very challenging

but the with the iron bitter though, is that that's not the bittering He's not bad. It's iron citrate so right

it's not bitter, but that's the thing. I don't know if any bitter notes, they're actually just bitter that I detest. You know what I'm saying?

I certainly don't I like them all. And that's how I wound up in where I'm at now I enjoy them. But what about the

flavor? Like what about the their flavors that go with bitterness that make things unpleasant, right, so like, some people don't like dusty, like that dusty note that you'll get in like Seuss or something like this, right, which a bunch of different agents can make that make that dusty kind of note. But does this stuff like can it be made into a pleasant bitters?

Yeah, yeah, it was, I would say so. Yeah, of course. It's, it's a little it's kind of earthy. You know, it's hard to describe what, what, what that taste is.

What's the name of it again? Ashwagandha ashwagandha, and also

known as indian ginseng, poison gooseberry?

With the name lightweight, and basically,

it makes it looks like a gooseberry. It's got like a husk around it. And that's what you'd use to make that wild sheet.

Is it related to Oregon? Is it related to a real gooseberry? Like a new trouver? Or I mean, is it in fact a gooseberry?

It is a Nightshade?

Yeah, they're all Yeah.

Do you happen to know and I say family? Do you happen to know of any commercially made tincture or portable bitters that involve it?

Yeah, they sell them they sell a lot of commercial ostraca Oregon is like one of the top selling supplements in the United States. It's used by bodybuilders weightlifters it's used by all sorts of different people. It's really it's it's honestly it's great for you, lowers your stress levels. Like elixir have long life in India, but v over here. We've started using it for like, you know, supplement geeks have all sorts of YouTube videos about it. Go on YouTube, and you'll find a bunch of people explaining like all the minutia.

Yeah, I'm gonna check it out.

Do you have a Do you have a short life elixir? That's what the Stasi wants to feed me. Yeah. So caller, I got another one for you. Speaking of short life, elixirs, elixirs, since you are interested in this sort of thing, and I have not tasted in southern maybe you have Have you tried the rhododendron? Honey, that toxic Rhododendron, honey. No, no, you guys have heard of it. The Mad honey. It's from like, Turkey. And then up in the mountain areas. They have a couple of species. Well, you know, rhododendrons are poisonous, right? So there's a couple of species of rhododendron where the nectar contains a neurotoxin that wait for it in small amounts, people find pleasant, but in large amounts are problematic. And it makes this I think colored honey, I think the honey has a color to it. But it's called like mad. They, when they try to sell it to you. It's called Mad honey, but there's an actual Turkish word for it. And I think it crosses over to the other side of the mountains as well. But it's like that kind of mountainous area of Turkey where it comes from. It's I mean, it's expensive. But it's not like that expensive, because you're only eating like, a, well, unless you're unless you're dumb. You're only eating a small amount of it. And it's like I think it's like $100 a pound. But here's the thing. I don't think and this is a good point with herbs to maybe you want to talk about a color, I think it's unethical to put something that you think has some sort of bioactivity into a drink if there's even a possibility that someone might have a negative reaction to it. Because look like you're serving someone alcohol, right? Right, already a poison, right? But it's assumed that they know how to deal with alcohol because they showed up at a bar and ordered alcohol. If you're selling them, like you know, something that can you know, affect their kidney function or you don't know what's going on with their body and you don't know how they're gonna react to it. You don't I mean, some of these herbs actually have real effects on Sure. This is why I'm

staunchly

have real effects on people. Why we think she has them in the first place.

Right, of course. But the that's why as you know, we've worked together at the bar to Dave That's why I'm staunchly against things like tobacco bitters. I'm really staunchly against the green dragon that everybody makes with the with the pot bitter.

I'm not gonna say who who we share in common that makes that and came up with that, but his argument is

if I know the person Oh, yeah, but I'm not gonna put it on my drink menu and just put it in people's drinks with us.

Especially because you don't live in Colorado, but that too. Yeah. Cannabis. Yeah. Yeah, but they like marijuana the green the Green Dragon The as it is a cannabis tincture, but I mean, I think that that's like the great thing about the legalization

even activated charcoal can fuck with people like I don't put anything in my drinks that can fuck with them any harder than alcohol family shows or they can my show is not I'm sorry that I don't put anything in my drinks that can screw with people any more than the alcohol All this in the drink screws with them because that's what they're expecting when they come in, you know, right. But

I think a lot of people who are getting into making bitters, don't think necessarily about mean like, for instance, like, controlling the bark, obviously can cause lots of problems. If you overdo it, it's thankfully, hard to overdo and still make a palatable drink. Exactly. Yeah. So for that one, it's relatively self limiting,

but also it collects so you can make a palatable drink at the at the far end of that palatability. And then have two or three of them, and then you still get the same effect. Is that true? Yeah, it piles up.

Sweet. Like I don't know, I don't know what the biological halflife you ever notice that some bittermens actually do have not just in your body but have a palate like reinforcing effects such that it gets progressively more bitter.

Oh, yeah, the L sernova. Salas certainly does that. Sip one is bitter SIP two is more and this is uncommon, right? Typically, you get a you it sort of dissipates you get. Salad. Alistair Nova Salas is a potable bitter that the sweetener in that one is the sap from one of the trees where they get the bark that make the thing bitter in the first place. And SAP is not sweet. It's sticky, but it's not sweet. But this this bitter as you drink, it becomes more and more bitter, which was pretty uncommon.

Yeah. So I had another bitter question. What was it? Take a break first. Well, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. We have a bitters expert on the on a tincture expert. Oh, here's one for you. Here's something I've never been able to figure out. I want anyone in the on the internet who can hear this to help me figure it out. It's it's a, we know for a fact that Apple and Campari if stored in a bottled drink. Bliss, a carbonated bottled drink with acid will get more bitter. Over the course of like 24 or 48 hours, it will get progressively more bitter to the point where it's unpalatable when diluted, yeah, it's diluted, and but we've you can store it diluted. But as soon as you add acid, you know, like, you know the equivalent of the same acid that you would have in like a gin and tonic or any one of our carbonated drinks. And I've never tested it with lime. We use a mixer a mixture of mallet sorry, lactic and tartaric acid with Kumari, and it just an apple and it just gets intensely bitter. So we had to even though those acids don't spoil, we still had to add the acid on poor at service time, because otherwise it would go unpalatably. unpatentable unpalatably Bitter in 24 hours. Yep. And well, it was, it was one of those things where you know how I am, like, I was getting like, violently angry, I would go in, I would make the drink. I'd be like, Oh, my love it. I'm out. And then I would bottle it. And then I would call in the next day and be like, did you try it? And they're like, It's too bitter. It's no. And I was like, what? And then finally I went back and tasted yesterday's batch. Because as everyone knows, you know, we do at the bar of life tests right to see how long a product lasts, you know, especially if you're going to pre batch because you don't want to throw away liquor. And yeah, just got more and more bitter. None of us can figure out why. It's weird. Yeah. Have you had any other bitter tinctures? That if you store them differently, like they get if you suddenly compound two things together, they they go crazy on you?

That's really interesting. I haven't I haven't ever had to deal with that before. But I would like to kind of get into it. You said it's apar all animals?

Yeah, I mean, start with compartment, I would start with comparo because I know it happens more kind of aggressively there. So just make like a make like a like a Campari soda, right? add acid to it. So it's like acidic, right as though you had squeezed lime in. But again, I use mallet sorry, tortorich and lactic acid, and then store it tasted, taste it be like, yes, this tastes good. And then store it for 24 hours. Go back and taste it. And you can even make a fresh one side by side and the bitterness difference is apparent.

They're just adding you're just adding just like soda water or carbonated water to Campari and then adding some sort of acid. That's the three.

Yeah. And because it's because it's me. I also lead carbonate the whole thing, because, you know, sure that's.

Well, that's not a question I can answer. But I can ask my mother. She will probably no, no. All

right. Well, tweeted on back tweet the answer on back to Cooking issues if you can find it. Oh,

last question. I tweeted you a couple of weeks ago. Who is the chef who moved to California you guys had this? You were talking about the chef? I don't remember what episode it was on. It could have been years ago. I just moved to California and in Venice right now. You were talking about on one of your episodes, one of the hundreds Um, there was a chef who had like this last manuscript that was about fish. He has one that's available on public domain. He was like an early like 19th century chef who moved to California, full of growers and he wanted to go this and that and the other thing and he has like a lot of made a lot of impact on the California Food System. With that guy

when he's he's a New Yorker who moved to California read like recently in the past five years her man see Dave will be one of the engineers looking to the Dave in the booth. This is why it would be nice to be able to search what we've had. Because I can't remember. Southern would also like to be able to be great, sir. Should we? I don't remember. Although Nick mom,

in an old episode, it must have been like, because when I was driving out here, I just had you guys on like, Alright, let's do this one. All right, let's do this one, right. And then I heard that on my way out here, and I wanted to talk to chef but I'm working for here about that. I cannot find the episode.

I mean, I know people that have like ancient time manuscripts. I know people like we Popat a bunch of old time manuscripts. And so we know someone else who had a bunch of time but fish,

but he had a book about he had a city road that was like his like kind of like his guide to vegetables at the time. It was like the on food and cooking of his time, about like every single kind of vegetable that they had available in America to cook with options of everything. Oh,

if you want Well, this has nothing to do with a chef. But if you want like all the vegetables that were available in the New York City markets, right after the Civil War, you're going to want to go on Google Books and look up one of my favorite books, the market assistant, and the picture of the guy at the front of the market assistant looks like Bill the butcher pool from gangs in New York. In other words, like Daniel Day Lewis, and an animal Yeah, my spirit animal Daniel Day Lewis, who's whose toughest role is just as a loving father from New Jersey. But the how do I play this? I just want my kids back. That even I just got to pick up my kids from school. Like, how do you get like, how do you get all bent for that anyway, but like, that's like everyone's life. Anyway, point being market assistant is everything that's available. And you can see the crazy diversity of ingredients that we had in the 1800s. I mean, just bananas, you know what I mean? So instead of 18 varieties of Oreo, you had 18 varieties of small bird. You could buy no

bananas, though, because they haven't been invented yet. Right? Well,

do you have information on the banana? Dave? Are you a are you a historian of the United Fruit and what we did to all of the countries south of us in order that we could get cheap bananas

can't say? distantly. Yeah. Well,

we'll take a break. We could talk about the horror shows of America and how you know the horrible things we've done to other people for fruit and the banana who Steena who? Yeah, that's good one coming back and cooking issues.

This episode of Cooking issues is brought to you by Bob's Red Mill and employee owned company that has been offering organic stone ground products for decades.

Dave, we have a question from a listener about another Bob's Red Mill product this week, Kathy writes, I heard you talk about the science behind nutritional yeast. But what makes it tastes like Parmesan, while bakers and brewers yeast tastes like well, yeast.

Kathy, I have to say I haven't done too much research on this. The main difference that I know of between nutritional yeast and regular bakeries is twofold. One, they can choose a specific strain of yeast when they're making nutritional yeast and doesn't have to make anything rise so they can choose it just based on flavor of that's one. The second is is that the main difference between nutritional yeast and regular yeast is that nutritional use has been heated so that it's no longer active. And I'm sure that the heating especially I'm not sure what temperature they take it up to but if they toasted it all, that toasting can bring out a lot of those kinds of nobody cheesy more more Parmesan notes and you're not going to get any kind of active fermentation notes out of nutritional yeast because it's dead. If you have more questions about Bob's Red Mill products, tweet it to us at Heritage underscore radio,

get your hands on nutritional yeast go to Bob's Red mill.com and use the code cooking issues that's one word all caps cooking issues for 25% off your order

and we're back all right, I'm gonna do some questions. We got time for one because there's a show at one so time to wrap it up. Time to wrap it up.

All right Devin from Seattle Washington writes and we're gonna go speed so there you're gonna have some stuff to say about this. Okay, she's crew. For years have been wanting to create a juice production and distribution business directed towards bar slash restaurant slash hotels in my city. And recently the time has presented itself to move forward. And this idea that until yesterday, when the Department of Agriculture and FDA told me that raw juice the same juice we make in using bars every day can only be sold direct to customer and wholesale juice must be pasteurized. So here's my question, instead of giving up because I hate pasteurized juice, or taking the FTAs Johnson to the face and spending a gazillion dollars on a high pressure pot. what I'm reading? Could I can't in no time could I run my juice through a VacMaster and serve the juice within the same day of pressing with similar results is non pasteurized fresh juice, specifically with the VacMaster killing off bacteria to pass lab tests performed by the FDA to be considered pasteurized enough answer no VacMaster will not kill any bacteria. It's just simply vacuum packing it, other bacteria won't grow. But here's the actual truth is you can sell juice to people what you have to do non pasteurized, but for citrus only, you have to get you have to purchase verified tree picked no ground fall fruit. That's the first part of the rule. Secondly, you have to sand put in a sanitizer solution that has a proven log five reduction in bacteria for the external portion of the citrus fruit, rinse it off, you can then sell that citrus fruit to a commercial place with the label saying this juice has not been pasteurized and yada yada, yada. You can't do that for any other juice other than citrus. You can use non heat pasteurization techniques such as ozone or UV light. But that is a huge pain in the butt. And you still need to prove that you have a five log reduction in pathogens. Here's another way around it. You can sell it retail and then even if somebody buys 80,000 jugs of it, how do you know were they using it? That's the way Manhattan fruit exchange does it here in New York City. That's kind of what I was gonna say sell jug after jug after jug of fruit and they don't ask you whether you have a really big family or a restaurant. So that's one way to do it. And then of course, it's on the other people. They're doing something illegal, but at least you're not doing something illegal.

And I wouldn't. I will I will say also that you know, the guys over at cocktail Kingdom they tried to put together a similar business and they shut it down because of the expense it was going to cost to go through the pasteurization process. Yeah, for that reason. They were doing it for about a year they were you could you could call a cocktail kingdom as a bar restaurant hotel and buy fresh juice. It would be delivered within 24 hours. It was amazing. And yeah, they got they got shut down.

All right, so I didn't I didn't get to the rest of my dang questions. Nope. Gotta go. Not even a 32nd question cooking

issues.

My book drops on August 28. What's it called Southern. I'm just here for the drinks. All righty. Buy it.

You didn't say it? Notice.

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