Hello, everybody, and welcome to a brand new series on heritage radio network called the culinary call sheet where we give a peek into the back kitchen of culinary media. I'm your host, April Jones,

and I'm your co host, Darren bresnitz. Part of why we started the show was to offer an unofficial mentorship for anyone who's interested in learning about all aspects of food and video, whether that's TV, social media online, or just something you want to do for fun.

Absolutely what was once niche or a little silly, as I'm sure you remember, Darren, when we started out, this man has now become such a massive playing field for so many creatives using food as the medium.

It's something that has driven us professionally and personally, for so many years. What excites me the most about this show is that we're going to sit down with some of the industry leaders to hear how they made it and what drew them into this industry.

With 20 years in the culinary production game ourselves. We're hoping we can give through these conversations an insider's view into personal stories from the field, as well as an in depth behind the scenes look into some of the most popular food programming. In today's evolving culinary media landscape.

We'll be covering everything from how to style your food, to how to license IP, to developing your own ideas, and some tips from the masters of how to host your own show.

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My name is Hannah Fordham. I'm the membership coordinator at her dish radio network. But even before I joined the team, I loved listening to HR and during my subway commute. It made the time go quickly and left me feeling inspired for the day ahead. HR and listeners tune in from all over the world. But there are a few traits that we all have in common, no matter where we listen from a curious palette, the fierceness to make a difference, and the hunger for lifelong learning about the culinary world. As you know heritage Radio Network is a listener supported nonprofit. To deliver the most ambitious entertaining and have the moment stories in 2018. We need your help. We need to raise $150,000 By December 31 To accomplish these goals and to keep your favorite shows on the air. Together we can make this hrs most exciting, impactful and delicious year yet become a member by donating today. Join us at Heritage radio network.org/donate And you'll immediately start enjoying benefits such as VIP invitations to HR and events where you will mix and mingle with your favorite hosts. Memberships also make a perfect holiday gift for all the foodies in your life. This year. Why not give the gift of food radio. You'll hear your generosity and action for the year to come. help keep our lights on and our mics hot by pledging your support today at Heritage radio network.org/donate Thanks for listening

Hello and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave is coming to you on the heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 1245 Roberta's pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn and joined as usual when the Stasio the hammer Lopez how're you doing? Sounds good. You weren't here last week why What were you doing?

I was thinking you

your life goal? What was your life goal?

My life goal was to feed Saturday Night Live and I did

yeah. And you got you got Instagram down you gotta try Michael Che now. So you check out Michael Chase Instagram

and he became the first black writer and Saturday Night Live history to become head writer that same day. So big.

Yeah. So also if you want to see what Anastasia Lopez can do if she actually likes someone like Michael J you can check out Michael Jays Instagram and look for the Pasta flyer thing like, you know, you can be thoughtful sometimes. Yeah. And creative sometimes sometimes. Yeah. So this is how to go.

I think it went well. I think it went well. They liked it. Do you made a cocktail for them? Thinking about? Well,

I did. You were like, ooh, we cheated. But you cheated. I cheated. I did cheat. It's not a cheat. You know what? I'm all for this. Listen, people's people's people. Listen, when you're making a cocktail. And there's a flavor that you like, right? Only maybe you're lazy? Or maybe you don't however, they told us the day before. Yeah, and you don't have the time or, you know, what's really good is like high quality if you don't mind the cook flavor, right? So the thing is, is that like a lot of the stuff that we do, we're trying to get like a super fresh flavor. And that's when we bust out like, you know, centrifuges and you know, cold clarification techniques and all that kind of stuff. You know, roto Vapp if you want like cold reductions, like we remember, we used to do the port syrup, cold, delicious. You know, for those kinds of things, but if you don't mind a cook flavor, jelly is delicious. And so you just hit jelly with pectin x. And then jelly. What was that? What was that? There was a character on Rudolph who's full of jelly. Yeah, a water gun that squirts jelly. Remember that? Yeah. Anyway, so So you take jelly always Rudolph. Yeah. So you take the well is the Christmas episode after all. So you take the jelly, you hit it with pectin x. And then you put it with liquor so that it's completely stable. And you can make these delicious jelly syrups so we did that with Concord grape because you know, we like a Concord grape here cooking issues. What about you, Dave? Dave in the booth. I didn't say hello to you yet today. Hey,

I'm right here.

Yeah, what do you what are your thoughts on concord grapes? Oh. ambivalent, which is a French Do you like peanut butter?

Well, yeah, I don't I don't often make peanut butter and jelly sandwiches?

No. I mean, did you not grow up with that? Well, yeah, sure. Are you part of the allergy generation? You know, there's a whole generation of kids that don't know what it's like to be an American. You don't insane? I mean, seriously, like they grew up. I mean, like, I'm all for not having that stuff in schools if people are going to if people are violently allergic now, which I guess they weren't in the 70s. Or at least we didn't pay attention to them. We don't know what happened. Maybe they were there. And we just we wiped them out. Because silent majority because we were so well. We were so non caring in the 70s that we just didn't care about people. And so we just you know, sprayed allergic people with peanut butter. I don't know. I don't really know. I haven't thought about it. But point being that you know, my kids generation did not grow up in school on PB and j's. At least not in New York. And a lot

of tuna fish sandwiches growing up. Oh, really? Yeah. So like mercury poisoning

action like a lot of tuna fish like probably havenstein Remember when he went crazy and got arrested and said it was because he ate so much sushi that he had mercury poisoning. Yeah,

vaguely sounds sound suspect but so is his acting career.

Wow. Now Yeah, well, I love any kind of crude oil. There's been like a number of insane food defenses over the years. And they've often been linked well of course because you're it's a defense right been linked to like horribly behavior like, in there was it seven years when Harvey Milk was murdered and they they the murderer, instead of just saying, I'm an evil like hater. homophobe was like I ate too many Twinkies. Remember, that was called the Twinkie Defense, literally, defense. And he blamed. First of all, why would you? If you're going to blame something's have to be Twinkies, like, you know, like our favorite childhood? Sponge cake with cream filling? Does it have to be Twinkies? I mean, it actually wasn't only Twinkies. It was just I believe it was. It's been a long time since I've researched it. But like I believe it was steroids and lots of sweets. And so they called it the Twinkie Defense. I don't think the Twinkies were actually specifically implicated

you know, it's probably more of the steroids

are Mel Gibson.

Mel Gibson blame it on the Jews. Oh my god. How does he Yeah, alcohol that's different alcohol. I mean, alcohol has been blamed since time immemorial. Have you heard that song alcohol where it's all about? Anyway? Was that Brad Paisley things alcohol you don't listen to any sort of item country? No at all. Alright, so calling your questions food food music related or not to send 184972128 that's 718497 to one to eight by the way. Everybody's favorite punching bag Peter

fortunately not

Peter the punching bag Kim hey listen any if any of you people out there are game designers and are into but oh not here. Yeah. All right. Listen, seriously.

Those repeat are not game designers.

If any of you out there are game designers or rom hackers. You know what rom hacker is Anastasia? A rom hacker is someone that takes old game ROMs and then hacks them so If so, listen, here's what I want you guys to do. I want you to go get don't do anything illegal, but go do something illegal. Go get the ROM for punch out or for super punch out. And I want you to modify glass Joe's sprites to make it into Peter Kim. I will see if anyone can do this out there if anyone in

everytime he gets hit, he has to make the sound that's on your phone.

So the body blow body blow like everybody's gonna go oh, well, I don't know how that is a lot of this sounds I don't remember whether PunchOut is a sample bass sound or whether PunchOut is a computer generated sound. But anyway, anyone who's out there was a ROM hacker will know what I'm talking about. I will get you the correct images. I will get you the pixel art for Peter Kim in the various Glass Joe positions. And we can do a super punch out of of Kim, Peter Kim. And I think it'd be it would be a great gift to him to have the super punch out version of petercam That'd be amazing, Dave Oh, yeah. I mean, it'd be great honor I mean, I would love to have myself get their crap beat out of me. I mean, look, you don't We don't have to make Peter into Glass Joe. We can make Peter into like Mr. Sandman or any one of the characters there. But, you know, Glasgow,

I'd never beat that game. No, no, I couldn't be Mike Tyson.

Really? Well, there's Mike Tyson. There's Okay, so I don't like guess that's true. There's the there's the Nintendo Wii. But there's also the arcade version I guess you could choose wherever it's easiest to hack on or put it in their kid whatever is easiest to hack arcade was interesting. The original punch out was interesting cuz it was a dual monitor kind of a situation with how

do you hack the arcade? Don't you need to have the console in your possession to do it.

Clearly you're not up on rom hacking. Like it's not. You have a MAME emulator, and you have a ROM and it's it's easier to hack. I think that the console stuff because more people have done console hacking, but you can because another dream someone has actually already done it. But my editors don't work. I wanted to hack the editor, the sprites for a game called tapper, where it's like a bartender thing and put like my favorite bartenders. Yeah, I want to put my favorite bartenders faces in place of that person's face and then have like, selectable like which rom you open and you can have you know, you could have any bartender you want. Be the tapper be great. First of all, they need a female Tapper. And then, you know, swap out the dancing ladies for somebody else when you give them a tip. Anyway, all good stuff and bright current.

What it's good current guys, come on. Yeah.

Anyway, so someone out there has to know how to do this. So Peter Kim is not here. He was supposed to come here and make a pitch for the museum. Instead literally is like, I have no day and because he's sitting there hitting refresh waiting for you to donate to the Museum of food and drink. So he's sitting there constantly refreshing his email waiting for donations coming in. And its refresh finger is so like, you know. So hurting that he you know, couldn't come into the radio show today doesn't even want to go out for our Christmas party as well. By Christmas party. Anastasia means that Anastasia and I are gonna go out for drinks and pretend that we have a real company. I mean, true, false. True. Oh, by the way, we're gonna get Karen on later. No, do we have her nobody's responded to me. All right. Listen, I will say this before I go. And we had a question. A relatively in depth question. On she just email her. Oh, yeah. She just Yeah, I don't know. Oh, you figured out what talking about it later. Okay, so I listen. You guys gotta pretend that I'm your favorite. Mo fad punching bag. Peter Kim. Buddy. Blow body blow. Reading this actually, I'm supposed to pretend that I mean, we're eating this right? Yeah. So the Museum of food and drink. This is actually serious business Museum of food and drink desperately needs your funds for his continued operation. And so about what's what's hilarious is what's hilarious is is when he wrote this promo for me to read and doesn't realize that you it's hard, believe it or not folks, like it's hard to add like to combine ad libs from a promo in the middle of actually reading out the promo. So it's like if I can either just completely ad lib what I'm going to tell you, or I could just read something, but the combination of reading something and an ad libbing is relatively difficult to get it to come off properly. you've ever noticed that Dave?

Like where you're supposed to insert stuff? Yeah, like

insert insert information.

I don't know most people seem to have a handle on it

now. Not me. I'm more like, I'm more like, you know, what I when I do it, usually what I like to do is insert like a fake a fake voice in the middle of it. And so listen, I'll answer some questions. We'll do that towards the middle of the show. And I will just look over kind of what the points he wants me to get. And then I will just tell you guys something from the heart about the Museum of food and drink. But I will say this, don't you like what you're going to want to do? Regardless of whether you listen throughout this entire program or not? You're going to want to go to donate.mo fed.org donate.mo fed.org to help support the Museum of food and drink and then I'll talk more about it. I'll give you the extended PSA later maybe after we come out In the break, if we do a question first. Okay, let's do to a question. We're not going to do the complicated. Look, we tried to get in touch with email answer now. Yeah, we tried to get in touch with Chef Karen at he used to teach bread at Bournemouth who used to teach bread at the French Culinary Institute. And now she's at Hot Bread Kitchen and does education there. So we had a question on brioche. And it was really complicated in depth question specific stuff on brioche. And as I told Anastasia this morning, Karen can like wake up and you know, and to doubt some brioche it like, like No problem, man like, and, by the way, interesting fact, you know, I like to say, you know, as always been said, Those who cannot teach do poorly. You know what I mean? Everyone's used to say, those who cannot do teach this is crap. If you actually teach something day in and day out, you learn so much more about what you're doing because people ask questions, people mess up in ways that you don't understand. So if you really want to ask a question about something like brioche, go ask a bread teacher who for years, taught students like day after day, how to make brioche and saw everything that could go wrong, go wrong with brioche. And that's how you figure out what's going on the same way that like with low temperature cooking, or any of that stuff that you know, I used to teach on a daily basis is just seeing people mess it up day after day after day makes you as a teacher so much better because a you have to be able to explain to them how not to mess up and be you get to under see really see how things get messed up over time. By the way, I will say one thing before I get I'll do a question and then I'll say remind me low temperature. So they say okay, what little time got it low temp got it. Erin wrote in and said cold brew coffee on radio show interested in hearing more? Well, Aaron, I wish I could help you out because here's why. I mean, I know how to make cold brew coffee. I'm doing some interesting work on cold brew coffee in the spins off and I actually have some really interesting so Paul Adams, you know, friend of the show, and he promoted his kitten the last time Yeah, came on the air and promoted his his new kitten, right? Which is interesting. I mean, I liked the fact that you know, he feels like he has to promote something come on. He's he is our resident cold brew expert. And so occasionally he will come to me and say can we do this or that with cold brew? My problem is it's hard for me to develop stuff without Paul because I don't like cold brew coffee. And so I can't judge whether or not I've done a good job or a bad job on the cold brew coffee because I don't enjoy it and I don't even think the Stasi enjoys so what kind of coffee Oh to Stasi likes to like the crappiest coffee in the world like if you any street

corner oh I remember this episode. This was the greatest any street any

street corner that has some sort of quilted stainless and and like yellow acrylic window box where the coffee was brewed like in the last century sometime and has been sitting in a pot moldering and turned into garbage and is then poured into a substandard paper cup that excoriates your tongue and makes you realize that you're a crappy New Yorker and then has plastic and cuts your lips. Yeah. And that is the kind of coffee that she likes. That's what she enjoys. Right? And she enjoys it because like my grandpa, right? Like my crazy dead racist grandpa. Like she likes to like crappy stuff on purpose. Just to piss off people that care. That is

not true. Dave.

There's no other this was where the conversation diverged last time as well. Yeah, the intent behind it.

Isn't the kid from Stranger Things?

Wait, what's not the kid from Stranger Things?

Oh, with the bowl here? No.

Which one? No lead kid.

Why don't we just make it up? Why does it make it up? Hey, is that is that David Hasselhoff sitting there in the corner? No. That's an Asian man. What did we did this kid looks nothing like the flannel. Yes, he looks nothing like that. He has a kid in flannel. It starts Are you really going over the edge here. Anyway, she's seeing stars everywhere now. Right. So anyway, so back to cold brew air. And what I'm going to do in the in the new year, I have to say this. Paul Adams is getting on my case to design a standalone cold brew brewer in the $200 range that can make cold brew in under 20 minutes with good extraction. And the short answer is yes, I can do it. I figured it out. But the long answer is is I haven't mocked up a working prototype and then I would have to actually talk to the Stasi and see whether she wants to get into the business of selling said piece of equipment and then I would have to go do that if you build the wine zombie. The wine zombie is a different it's a different thing.

What's a wine zombie?

What's What the hell? What's a wind zombie where you been? It isn't it

is the piece of equipment that most people would want that they will not get behind.

It's the piece of equipment that Anastasia Lopez and Piper Christiansen designed and built on Booker and dash time

for Booker and DAX owns it. So why doesn't Booker next build it

because it is not part of the is not in the weights of Booker and DAX style equipment. A wine zombie slash wine Santa wine football player is, is a mannequin that shoots alcoholic beverage chilled or warm depending on how you want it out of its mouth, into a Punchbowl. And it can be made to look like it's vomiting. So in the zombie case, it's more of a vomit. And then the final iteration Anastasia had one that was had a motion sensor and a voice recorder on it. Such that Santa would say things to you. When you walked up to it. It would Santa would say things to you, like too much ignored. And then it was like he was throwing up wine.

It was like vomit and Kermit. Yeah.

See? Isn't that a good idea?

No.

Yeah, sounds great.

You How much would you pay for this?

You pay for life size mannequin.

Oh, life size, life size? Oh, well. I live in a Brooklyn apartment.

I'll give you well, you rent it for parties. And here's the thing. It's freestanding. Right. So so but you know how, like, the old joke is, that guy's got a wooden leg, though. Where does he put all that? You know what I mean? Like, because he's not getting drunk. He's drinking all this stuff. You know, I'm saying. So like this, like Santa literally has literally it's like more of a plastic leg. It's like filled with liquor, and then just like circulates it up with this with a pump, and then like goes down and the don't give away the IP. I think people can figure out how to put a tube in the bottom of a bowl and run it down Santa's sleeve into his boot.

I feel like this thing would kill it on the startup party circuit. Like all the bro dudes would be winning it for their parties, and

people don't want

you. Well remember, remember Booker, and DAX is we're the trailing edge technology. The thing that could fall off the airplane and it flies just fine. They noticed like three fights later that the thing fell. Oh, man. That blinking light. What was that for? I don't know what fell off the plane. Like you know, a week ago.

It gave me that important

days. They're like that, but it made it 5% better.

So anyway, yeah, that's that's my life. That sounds cool. Yeah, sure. Caller you're on the air.

Hey, guys, this is William Chicago. How you doing? I'm doing like I've done. And just first off for the survey. 30 year old man married, my wife loves kitchen gadgets, and most years old and single owner, bartender. Let it so I actually have a single coffee related question. Not to belabor the dead horse here at all. But I'm gonna be making a batch of oats out with my group, buddy. Today, we're gonna get started probably right after the show. And we want to turn it into a coffee set. And I think that the single is an excellent application for this. I was wondering if like, you could just give me a little bit of like a primer on maybe what you've done. Or I also was thinking about maybe using the malt to extract the coffee. But I just wanted to run it by you before we did anything. Sure.

So I've done more recent coffee experiments. Since I've did the math since I did the manual. In the manual, I think I use like a like a relatively fine grind the issue on espresso right? Yeah, but recently I've actually been using and I think it's probably better, coarser grinds, because I think I'm getting better kind of forced percolation results through the coarser grind. And so what I've been doing is it's, you know, made it I think simpler on myself is you know, a pre moisten the the trick is you cannot pump grounds like period, you cannot pump coffee grounds. So, what I've been doing is mixing it, putting it into the, into the thing spinning it up. Now the trouble with the spins all especially if, if there's any sort of vibration with it, it's just getting it to start up. So sometimes people have had issues with going into into flashing mode with coffee grounds. Because if it doesn't spin up fast enough, it doesn't settle out fast enough and go into flashing mode and so sometimes people have had trouble where they need to do it a bunch of times to get it to go but once it goes once it's going and I hope to fix that problem. Once it's going then I would just recirculate the just recirculate the water through it, and just walk away from it and let it recirculate and I was able to get it On recirculation, I was able to get the TDS. I forget, I forget what the correct numbers were. But I got it into the range of a regular concentrate just by doing on research mode. And I got to do it kind of relatively relatively quickly. And so it was it ended up working well keep the extender tubes on because the idea here is you're trying to force the water to the inside of the rotor and then have it percolate under pressure up through the up through the grounds. The issue with the spins off and the cold brew coffee and where it can be improved is that if you were to stop the unit in the middle of circulation, and look at the grounds, you would notice that some of the grounds are more heavily percolated than others, because where the tubes are, it's like preferential to have the stuff percolate through there. And so, you know, one of the things I'm considering doing is making a, like a forced percolation attachment or for the for the unit that, but again, that would be sometime next year, or just doing a standalone cold whoo thing, but those are the basic tips that I have for if that makes sense. Okay, and

just what do you think about using the word to do the extraction? Good idea, bad idea useless?

I mean, stickier. And I'm getting like, really sick here. Yeah, the the issue is this, right? So your extract, as you know, as a brewer, your extraction, like your extraction medium, right, has more profound influence over what you extract than you would imagine. Right? So I would say that, you know, the coffee might strip something for you ever know, like, something's going to adsorbed onto the coffee out of the word. So definitely, you'll lose probably only a tiny bit of sugar. I mean, depends on how much you're going to do you know what I mean? It might work. It might be it might be delicious. I mean, I would just, I would make some extra and test it. You know what I'm saying? I remember though, the advantage of cold brew for this over other things is that the idea being of cold brew, I guess is that it is more stable, because it doesn't like the cold extract and stuff doesn't self autolyzed as much as the as the hot brewed stuff, man. I guess theoretically, that's what I put on screen flavors. Right? Yeah, yeah. Well, the good news with it, as long as you don't over pump it is that is the spins all is so much better than regular filtration. And it's like zero fines, zero fines, especially if you're using the coarser ground stuff, zero fines. So I would try it with I would try it with work and see what what's going on. And please, you know, shoot me back at cooking issues, and let me know whether or not you had success with it or not.

Yeah, I mean, the nice thing about this is I'm gonna do a couple of test batches. So all I'll keep track of my results, and I'll let you know.

Alright, cool. Let's know. Yeah, thanks for help. All right, cool. All right. So where are we by the way? Do we do we need to take a break? Are we how are we doing? Dave? Dave?

Yeah, let's take a quick break. We'll

come right back. And we're cooking issues.

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And we're back. So we have Chef Karen from heartbreak kitchen on the phone. How're you doing?

I'm good. Dave, how are you doing? Well. And

since we love Hopper kitchen, you want to explain a little bit what it is to people.

Sure. We are a bakery in East Harlem, but we're actually a nonprofit organization. And we make and sell breads so that we can provide on the job training to women who face barriers to employment, to train women from all around the world. And they spent time working in our bakery, we pay them a wage and this the sale of our bread supports all these efforts. So if you can look for us in green markets and buy our breads and your purchases will support training for a woman to go through our program and get a great job in the industry.

Yeah, but beyond that, also, I mean, like that's great and I love helping people but the breads really good. I mean that's the

bread is really good. Their bread is really good and you're gonna hybrids for most that you just don't find anywhere else. Our Moroccan M seven is really unusual flatbread, which I don't think you can find anywhere else in New York. We make these great Persian breads and Nani Conde which is also sort of a flatbread with honey, and butter and Unani Barbary, and we also make tortillas, we do a true nixtamal tortilla. And I don't think there are too many people in the city doing that, like great tortillas with organic, non GMO corn with a real mix of them all process.

What do you do? Like do you deal with the Latina people for for? Who do you deal with? Do you get where do you get the corn from?

You know, we're going through through the green markets for some of it because some of it is local. But I'm not entirely sure who we're getting the other two from one of the three we're using as local, we have blue, white and yellow, then we're going through the green markets that are local corn, and I'm not positive who are going through for the others.

And I know you don't do it anymore, but you guys used to make the only all teff in JIRA that you can get in New York.

I know. And we've been talking about trying to bring that back. We've had a couple of Ethiopian bakers through our program recently, and they both been amazing engineer makers. So we're trying to figure out how we can scale that up and get that back into the markets.

Yeah, so it's one of these rare kind of situations where the product quality is really high, and you're doing something and interesting. By the way, as Karen says, There are breads that they make that you just simply don't see or can't get. And these folks do a great job and are doing something great at the same time. So definitely something worthy of worthy of your support. If simply just by buying their product, you should keep a lookout for heartbreak kitchen. Okay. So thank you so much. Hey, no problem. And so we know each other from the French Culinary Institute, I still refuse to call it the ICC or whatever the hell they call it nowadays, French Culinary Institute, where you were the bread teacher. And we had a question in from Josh Galiana, which is to me too long to go into and at all. Yeah, we email it to you. But it's like it would take the entire rest of the thing to read it.

That's why I can call you back to you quickly, because I was trying to read through all of the very tense information in his email,

right. So the the short, the short of it is, is they used to have a good quality brioche. They moved to a new location they're using actually like high quality ovens now, but they're having a problem with the kind of wrinkling on their brioche and crust. Separation, I guess on on reheater burritos, because their sounds like they're doing it commercially, and then selling to places like hamburger joints.

Yeah, it's funny that I just have to tell you that I actually already knew about this guy in this problem, because an equipment guy that I know referred him to me for a consulting job, so I may not have the consulting job, I may be able to give him the answer through the radio. But this is how small

the bread world is right? But you should pay Karen by the way, Josh and his brioche problem, Josh? Josh, you should pay Karen for this answer. Anyway,

if it works. I mean, there's there's a lot of information here. But my initial reaction, anytime I hear about cross separation, it suggests to me that the bread is overproof. And so I think that he he says that he thinks that the issue is with a proofer. I think he might be right. I don't think it necessarily has to do with the temperature or humidity. But I think something is changing. And he might think about just under proofing it a little bit proofing it a little bit less than usual

as a test to see whether Yeah,

I mean, he's also he's changed so many different things. And I assume he's sort of making one change at a time. But if we saw, I would definitely recommend that he do that. Because, you know, so many changes, you can never identify where the solution is if you get to it or where the real problem is. He's changed his formula. He's changed his oven, he's changed his proofer and the

whole thing, right, everything's changed. I mean, you know, like, yeah, the issue is Yeah, I mean, that's the thing is being able to trace kind of what happened and the that's why keeping records is so important. And also just focusing on every aspect of what you do is so input, you know, the famous, I think it was armour, the famous sausage story, where they move. You don't allow story. Have I told us when I heard Dave not sure there's a famous story, I believe is armour sausage, where they had a new factory. And all of a sudden the sausage didn't taste right anymore. Nobody liked the sausage that they were making. And they tried to look and they looked at every process they were doing, it turns out they had in the old factory, they had to wheel the batter, the sausage batter all the way across the factory like a huge factory floor took a long time to get the batter from the mixing stage to the stuffing stage. And during that time, it underwent heat slash whatever bacteria related change, right? And it was that step that that that's Step that removing that step because in the new factory, it went directly from the mixer to the to the extruder. Like removing that step change that change the complete flavor profile of the sausage. So yeah, in production like that bread all the time. Yeah, because every step and bread look, you only got like a couple of brioche has more ingredients, but you only got a couple ingredients. So every step makes a huge difference.

Definitely. And temperature. I mean, whether you load the pan at the top of the rack, or the bottom of the rack can make a big difference in the way the dough behaves. Because it could be two degrees cooler at the bottom of the rack. It is at the top. And I think that people underestimate these, these the impact of those small changes.

Yeah, yeah, yes, it definitely one step at a time. And you say try the proof for first just proof it for less don't change the variables. Just proof it for less time.

Yeah, I mean, I don't think he says in this email how much he is using. So it's hard for me to sort of estimate how long the proof should be. But he's got a pretty good amount of fermentation on the dough, especially if he has a sponge too. And, and adding that on top of the one and a half hours in the final fermentation. Maybe he wants to wants to cut that down by 30 minutes or 15 minutes even and start there. But that's always my first reaction when I hear about cross separation in any bread.

Well, it's interesting, because I think proofing time is kind of the least one of the least well understood. aspects of what the heck's going on with bread right over proved under proved. Yeah. Why is that? Is it just because you're like, well, it's going to expand anyway. So was it really mad if it's over approved? Or is it mean, like, is it like, what is it like? Why is that?

Yeah, I mean, because proofing is not just about the yeast activity, it's also about the gluten development information. And if it's sort of reached its limit, you know, you have these kind of two tracks, you have the DOE development, and then you have the East activity, and you want them to happen at the same pace. And if one sort of pulls ahead of the other, you know, the dough is reached the maximum sort of development stage, but it's still proofing. That's when the gluten structure starts to break down, and you can see weird stuff happening to the crumb or the cross. So then again, somebody at every point of the process can make it different than that maybe they're even over mixing it as possible.

Right now, right? Well, anyway, so hopefully, you know, hopefully, Josh will try this out. Hopefully, Josh will, you know, somehow, you know, reimburse you for your excellent advice. And Karen, by the way, always, always a badass with the baking and please, don't cut people can't can people just people can't stop by your bakery, right? They have to go to the Green Market. Which days? Are you guys there?

Where are you? They can look at our website. We're at many different green markets throughout the city, I think at least 12 different green markets. So you can find one that's close to you and find out what days were there. But our production facility is in East Harlem and a building called Loma, Kedah. And we operate a little storefront up here and people can walk to the back and see our bakers in action. All right.

All right. Well, thanks so much. Support heartbreak kitchen, and thanks for calling in.

Nice talking to Dave.

What about the Amazon email?

Oh, yeah. So we had I forget who it was. But it's one of one of, you know, one of our friends on Twitter was like, all they said was Google Jeff Bezos question mark email. And so we did. It turns out that if, by the way, this is about the fact that that Sears halls, you know, for some reason, Amazon even though they have 1000s of them, like can't manage to sell them properly. And it's like killing us. And we just got another email in today. I don't know if you saw it. Are you responding to these emails as Matthew? Yeah. About Sears hauls not being in stock on Amazon. So it turns out that if you email Jeff Bezos, personally, and somehow, like, I guess a certain number of them, he probably has an algorithm to look at it and use the word algorithm, this email to Jeff Bezos saying, your algorithm sucks and is ruining our business. And, and we got a Jeff Bezos question mark emails, what happens is Jeff Bezos then just forwards your email to one of his, you know, lackeys, with just a question mark, a like, what? You know what I mean? So like, and apparently, if Jeff Bezos forwards your email to one of his folks with a question mark on it, everyone runs around like a decapitated. So I

got an email from one of these people that said, I got this email from Jeff Bezos and we want to help you. And I was like, yes,

yeah. So people, we are on it in the Word. I bought another email from

them saying we're still looking into it.

Well, I mean, like, Amazon cares that we're sitting here insulting their algorithms, like that's like that's hurting their feelings somehow. Alright, so are you gonna do this? Oh, yeah. Okay. So, back to the Museum of food and drink. This is the last money page of the of the year for us because we're not back until when you're shut down to a when Dave.

It's the week of January 14. So that would be what the 17th is that Tuesday? Oh, wow. No, no,

I'm sorry. 16. That's after my kid's birthday. Yeah. Wow. All right. So we're gone for a long time people you have to ask your questions on.

No, just wait.

Okay, just wait,

just wait. A little self control.

All right. So, as you guys know, the Museum of food and drink is incredibly important to me. I mean, I came up with the idea. I mean, it's, I like to say this when I'm at at events, but you know, my desire is that on my deathbed, I will say, you know, how like, what's his name? What's his name? What's his name? Hemmings. What's his name? President United States farm, Virginia Bell. Thomas Jefferson, with Thomas Jefferson was like, like, what my point is, is that like, Thomas Jefferson was like, My proudest achievement is UVA. Like, for me, it's like what I want to say is like, the thing that I want to look back and say that I did was the food and drink. He did not, he did not do the nickel. Yeah, anyway, the Museum of food and drink will have been the most important thing I worked on, because it's a way for us to take something that we all love, food and drink, obviously, you know, some of you do it professionally, we all we all eat it and to try to create something that isn't just for, you know, the wealthy people that can afford $14 cocktails, or can afford to go to the French Culinary Institute, or can afford to go to one of the restaurants we work at or to buy fancy food, but really to focus on the community aspects of food on what it means to break bread with someone what it means to understand another person, another culture another time through food. And so we rely and by the way, the museum is in kind of a where to take financial place. Right now, we're still a startup. Even though we have the lab, the lab is not really, it's more of a testbed, it's not we're not a full running sustainable museum yet, we need your support. So we rely like, very much so on donor support to run the museum. And to stay independent, we don't take money from big food and haven't taken money from big food. Because we want to appear to we want to be and also appear to be straight shooters. So please consider Mofaz your charitable giving this year especially because this might be the last year you can ever deduct it off your taxes. It's mean a lot to me, it would mean a lot to the people who come to us our programs and to the future of the museum. So please go to donate donate.mofaz.org, that's donate.mo fac fed.org. Every little bit helps, and you can become a supporter of the museum. Okay, so back to the show here for a minute. So I probably shouldn't tell this because it's one of the things it's going to be in my book on low temperature cooking, coming back to low temperature cooking. But for all of you that have put up with like all of the crazy rants and raves over the years on cooking issues, and I've just been for some reason you've been tuning in for some actual tip that could help you cook better. I'm about to give you that tip. All right. So here it is. Whenever someone says, How should I cook X, Y, or Z? God says, But I invented the deep fat fryer. Right? And then when whenever you're like, but God my oil, it goes bad for centuries. God's like I invented the tube fryer with a cold zone, right? So basically anything can be cooked almost anything can be cooked to perfection using deep frying, right? And not least of these is low temperature cooked meats. They're very, very good. Finished deep fat fried. Because I mean, it's obvious to anyone who has tastebuds and a brain that what you want to do is put maximum heat energy input into the entire surface. And ain't nothing better than deep frying to do that. It's easy. It's quick, it's repeatable. These are all things that everyone everyone likes. Everyone likes things that are quick, easy and repeatable. doesn't create a lot of smoke does create smelly oil but doesn't create a lot of smoke so it's not going to set up smoke detectors. The problem is, is that foods with batteries like french fries, they're in a battery from me, but like things that are meant to be fried that are oil absorbent like french fries like potato chips, like fried chicken like doughnuts, we all expect to have a certain amount of a fry taste instead of like walk Hey, it's like fry. Hey, you know what I mean? Because it's like, it's like that like essence of the fact that it's been deep fried, right. And the problem is, is that even though a steak won't absorb that, there still remains some fat on the outside. And to be honest, there is unless your oil is brand spanking new. And even if it is brand spanking new oil by way of as everybody knows, everybody knows who knows anything brand new oil is no good because you need to, you need to break the oil down a slight bit for to have really good heat transfer characteristics. Because if it's completely nonpolar, it can't, in the molecular sense, touch your food. So it needs to have a little bit of break down. Anyways, back to the story. So there's always a little bit of fry oil clinging to the outside of your meat. And it has an off putting aroma that people don't enjoy. And some people are more sensitive to others. So even if you can't sense it, this is, by the way, going back to teaching for a minute. One of the things you learn when you teach, or if you run a restaurant, and you actually listen to your customers is that just because you like something or because you can't sense an off flavor in something doesn't mean that other people can't sense it. Because all of our equipment, our noses, our palates, our tongues, our brains are all a little bit different. And so I'll just tell you that even if you can't sense this on the outside of a piece of meat, there's a lot of people that can. And so here is the solution for you go make like this is like I did a test. I've done a couple of tests now on it. And this thing works like a charm. Make some broth, right, so if you're doing steak, you can use beef broth, but I've actually just used chicken broth I've used I've used a bunch of different bras, and it really doesn't seem to matter much what broth you use, but get like a container and keep it hot right then after you deep fry it now if you're going to do it only once you don't need to even get complicated with it, you can just use like a quart container or lay it ladle or something but if you're going to use it again and again, get a sauce gun which is you know one of those depositing funnel things that are amazing. I love my sauce gun or if you're just doing it at home get a gravy separator is basically a gravy separator is a is a small picture that pours from the bottom. And the reason why is that grease floats. So you take a strongly flavored broth, hot, and then as soon as you pull it out of the deep fryer, you you hold it up and you pour hot broth, over the steak flip it pour hot broth over the other side of the steak or the chicken, whatever it is your front, well, you wouldn't really do this for chicken. But anyway, right? It's not a it's not there long enough, it's right when you pull it out, it's not going to hurt the crust at all. It will not hurt the crust. And what happens is is that when you recollect the broth, the fat floats to the top. And so because you're pouring from the bottom, you can use the broth again and again and again to wash the the fat, the deep fry flavor off the surface of your meat. And that's a win win win win win. So you can sit there and bust stuff out of your deep fryer, like all day and all night. And you're not going to have anyone no one absolutely no one could detect that I had fried these pieces of meat and I did it with substandard oil. I used oil that was over the edge to see whether or not I could get rid of the aroma of the meat when I did and lo and behold, you can so one of the things if you really want to use deep frying as a finishing technique because of its inherent positive characteristics. But you're worried about that aroma. Just get you some broth. And this goes back to remember Were you there when we did the hot dog juice? No, I