Hello, everybody, and welcome to a brand new series on heritage radio network called the culinary call sheet where we give a peek into the back kitchen of culinary media. I'm your host, April Jones,

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Absolutely what was once niche or a little silly, as I'm sure you remember, Darren, when we started out, this man has now become such a massive playing field for so many creatives using food as the medium.

It's something that has driven us professionally and personally, for so many years. What excites me the most about this show is that we're going to sit down with some of the industry leaders to hear how they made it and what drew them into this industry.

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We'll be covering everything from how to style your food, to how to license IP, to developing your own ideas, and some tips from the masters of how to host your own show.

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Hello, welcome to cookie issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on their network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly like you know 1245 One o'clock from Roberta pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn. Got a full crew today. We have of course Anastasia the hammer Lopez. How you doing? Good. Yeah. Got Dave in the booth. How you doing? Dave?

Doing? Good. Got new equipment in here. Oh, yeah. No, yeah. You sounded really really strange and different. This time around.

strange and different. Bad or strange and different. Just strange and different. It's

new. It's new. We

got we can't be afraid of the new is it like what it sounds like? There's like a like a phaser on it or something? Like, like, like, I'm about to be

like, You scream into the mic. So it's like compressing really hard, but I'm trying to fix it.

I feel like I'm in you. You're too young. You know the band the cars. Yeah. How young Do you think I am? Cars is like the 70s. So anyway, and I guess 80s They're big hits in the 80s. But yeah, I feel like I'm in the song living in stereo. It sounds like Rico classic. I will not. I will not record classic ugly ugly, ugly. dunwell right says yeah, have we done good for him? Yeah. Good for him. Joined with we're back to take your kid to work life. We got Booker in the in the studio. How you doing books?

Unfortunately, it? Um I'm glad to be here. But unfortunately, it stinks that I can't be independent yet. Yesterday we spoke to my neurologist.

Yeah. Do you want to tell everyone what she said there? Or do you not do want to keep it to yourself?

I can tell. She said she said maybe in January. I'll be on my own again.

Yeah, yeah, you can't wait right to be independent again.

You're gonna divorce your parents.

Why not that kind of independence. Now freaking Hermie from Rudolph independence. Yeah, that was Booker doing that, by the way. Very strong. Oh,

I love my parents very much. Why would I leave them

he just wants to be able to travel on his own like he like he used to like he can't he like you know, he has to be accompanied you know? I'm treated like a three year old. Yes, yes. Which is not the case. He is not in fact, three years,

because I'm going to be 16 in January. Yes, you can try.

Oh, yeah. No, you cannot drive in New York City when you're 16. This dasya will California girl like, you have to be 18 to drive in New York City. Really? Yeah. I didn't know that.

For Sorry. Sorry. You wouldn't drive anyway though, right? No,

no hates cars. We got Matthew from Booker and DAX customer service. How you doing? Ooh. Are you doing well do and we have Ariel Johnson from? I guess from MIT now, right. Yeah. So

we say from like, bridge. Yes. That MIT?

Yeah. Booker has never visited MIT because he only goes to have a hall when we go up to Israel, Harvard man. Yeah, he totally is. Actually what it is, is he enjoys the Sheraton commander, which is truly

truly a classic aimbridge institution.

It's the best hotel to stay in when you go to Boston. I do have to warn you though. The elevators are tiny there.

Yeah. Yeah. But why do you like it because of what?

The room environment the snack lounge if you're

got those like fried chickpeas and they lead dogs in?

Yeah, up to 80 pounds. But even though major weighs 85? They still a lot of sit? Yeah.

And Booker. I'm like, I'm like Booker. Just don't say anything. I'm writing down 70 pounds who like that major weighs? 85. He weighs 85 pounds.

I've been forgetting.

Listen, Booker. I do but he bends the rules a little bit. But it's all about just not saying anything. But I

just forgot. Anyways, the lady. The lady in the lobby was very nice.

That's good. Yes. She was very understanding. But it could have gone the other way. You could have gotten someone who is a real stickler for the Rules book or in a jerk. And a jerk. Yes, that could have happened. Well,

we I missed the last time you were at Harvard. I think I was out of town. So you didn't get to visit Medialab?

Yes. So anyways, so for your for your pleasure. You may call in your being a 15 year old questions. You may call in your Anastasia the hammer Lopes questions, you may call in your book or index customer service questions, then that Sears or spins all related, by the way, any update from Amazon. Now I'm running there. So literally, they've sold over half of their current stock in back orders. And they will just ship them.

What did they told you met a lot of things. Anything specific, just hey, we

can't we can't sell them. Because if we sold them we run out. So. So, you know, it's not, you know, not

clearly infallible logistical geniuses, or

calling your sensory and or MIT Media Lab related or, you know, you know, chromatography, lever, ecology, any of those questions? terreal 27184972128. That's 718-497-2128. And Davis, if we gotta call her and just, you know, interrupt me whatever, and we'll figure it out. I always do. But are we allowed to talk about the thing we just did the other week or not? Yeah, sure. Alright, so I participated in a by the way this fits with the Harvard who go, oh, go when tasting rums you must taste for ogo. Anyway, so like, you want to describe her go?

Well, Hugo is one word that people use for the kind of funky taste of funky rums.

What's another one?

Funk? Yeah, but

funk is so grassy. It's not really grass, though. Well,

I mean, so. So part of the problem. Part of the problem is that we have this word hobo and funk but it's not. Not a lot of consensus about like, what sort of more specific flavors

randomness use and smithing cross, right? Yeah, we have a random missing cross. If it tastes like that, or smells like that if it's in that ballpark.

potstill Jamaican rums. Yeah, rimfire rum. agricoles rum outside of Jamaica thing with

sugarcane, right. Yeah. Yeah.

So is so the question that we are asking is, is, is funk localized to just one thing or is like grassy funk, adjacent? Like, what is funk? Like funk is

just to meet more technically, unless you're saying something is funky in the James Brown sense. And by the way, Dax yesterday was like talking about dancing as like, if you've seen James Brown's dance moves, he was like, No, I'm like, this is this is why your generation is doomed to failure. And so I showed him like a bunch of James Brown moves. He was like, oh my god, James Brown is like, amazing. I was like, Yeah, and so there's that kind of like that funk. Yeah. Which comes from kind of funk meaning stinky but like more of it. Animal stink. More like an arm pity sweaty Bo civet cat stink is really technically, when you say like funk means like animal funk barnyard funk. You know what I mean? Not like grappling like, you know what I'm saying? It's like funk. It's my funky I don't like funky like hobo means rum related, like flavors that are hard to describe, like smithing cross and like re nephews, right. But

so if right now the best we can do is hobo it's funky. You know, it's like that thing, but not like a specific flavor, then that's not a very satisfying definitely a

smithing cross isn't a specific flavor and specific flavors. Yeah, but like so when someone says this one smells of apricots. Like that's valid, but somehow this room smells like Smith and cross is not valid.

Well, so if it smells like Smith and cross and it smells like grandnephew and smells like rimfire, then there's probably some platonic flavor that unifies them

eight Neoplatonic anything remember? Love is writing. Hate is philosophy. Plato, but the the great writer, love reading that stuff. Truly. He's completely like, you know, bat bat poop crazy.

The world is a cave and everyone is just watching projections on the cave wall.

I mean, yeah, it's like, you know, like, it's like, everyone's like, super. Don't you believe in the platonic? No, there is no, there is no dog. Okay, there is no, there is no chair. No. All right, garbage.

All right, Dave, all models are wrong, but some are useful.

All right, I'm all down. I'm down with useful but back to this. But that's why people say instead of apricot, they're like, stone fruit.

There are but Okay, so let's say you're smelling a glass of wine. And it smells like stone fruit, right? Like there are sensory percepts in common between that glass of wine, and a stone fruit. And in fact, usually chemistry in common between the two.

Yes, agree. Right. But when someone's gonna describe it, like, do you actually anticipate because I've seen this happen? Or someone's like XML like or do you expect someone to be like, hey, this smells like I mean, I see. I mean, I was like, What do you what's the goal for? What's the goal for tasters like that? That's what I'm trying to say. So the words to me like you want to instruct a bartender on how to taste this stuff. You're like tasting with and cross taste Ray. And I think

I think using the word grassy and everyone meaning roughly the same thing, when they say grassy is the most useful thing. Like probably there'll be some hexanol if they smell something grassy, right, but it could be something else similar, right? There's other many ways carbon aldehydes and alcohol.

That's my next band, Esther's Astro. Astro Williams is always playing in the background, and it's six, six carbon aldehyde is the band. Right? too deep, too deep, too deep. So anyway, so we were doing you were doing a test to see whether people could distinguish these

things, right? Well, a preliminary test trying to, to see if if funk and hago is a driver of separating rums from each other since a really wants to analyze data.

So so we're in this group of I don't know, like, whatever, it's 2020. Ish, we'll say it's 20. More than a dozen. Yeah, more than a dozen less than 50. Yeah. So anyway, so we're in this tasting thing. And Ariel goes, there's no wrong way to group these. You can group these things any way you want. And then when I group them, she's like, Oh, that's that's the wrong way.

There's no wrong way to group them. But you can't have overlapping groups.

Well, that's the way I grouped them in overlapping.

Groups are distinct. You know, it's funny, it's like no Venn diagrams, no Venn diagrams. When I was in when I was in grad school studying these techniques. One of my professors was saying, you know, like, we like to expert panels are like fun to do. But like expert winemakers sometimes make like the worst panelists, because they're bad at following instructions. Yeah,

yeah. Well, I I took it as a challenge. I was like, I knew that I would do it. Somehow wrong. And indeed I did. That's why we did it twice. Yeah, the test the test. He likes a nice he did it twice. Okay, by the way before we leave today, because I know it's approaching Thanksgiving. So I'm gonna go into my pre Thanksgiving Spiel because we only have one more show before Thanksgiving. Two. We're going to do a show on the Tuesday before

we're open so it's up to you.

We're open now. We're open are you Yeah, sure. Yeah. We're doing our pitch for Patrick's heritage birds are as he sold all of his birds so much. We don't even need to talk about it. I

don't know. I haven't heard from that guy in a while. Really? Yeah,

he's he's a wall on his beach. He should be. He should he should be you know armpit deep in heritage birds right now. He may well be maybe that's why I haven't heard from him should be burning it up strong. Anastasia is a longtime cooker and her mom longtime over cooker of the Heritage Berg right. Oh, heritage centers so dry yeah she's well she's she's Turkey thing is is like either gotta take either gotta cook it right or take it all the way to my favorite word meat floss Oh, you're

gonna say flavor to

flavortown you know what I forget? Who did a thing on him? And then people were giving him garbage for helping, you know doing stuff for, like relief for the hurricane stuff. He's apparently like a super nice guy, Guy Fieri sure that everyone who meets him, wants to hate him, and he's like, Oh, he's actually like a good guy. You know what I mean? So God bless him. And he whatever he does with his flavortown Ness, sure. You know, I would love to see him go do something Guy Fieri in Kyoto. You'd be like, Oh, this isn't big. And he's like, he's like, Oh, trained to settle down.

Like yeah, like that's like, Gary meets Randy Savage.

Yeah, can we can you buy a key because I don't really watch the show. So I can't really do his voice. Like in my mind, I'm picturing the hair but I'm just using that voice. But you're the face stuffing. Yes. Subtle. Yeah.

Big handfuls of like, cod sperm poached. And dashi like,

yeah, no, but the dashi remember is like, basically, flavor lists Dashi, if he's going to be Kyoto style. Oh, pull it up, pull out the katsuobushi before he hits the bottom of the pot. Welcome to settle down, you know what I mean? It's like armfuls of katsuobushi in and then like, pull it out before any flavor is extracted. And then like, you know, either, like make a stock that we serve to our dogs, or throw it away Kyoto subtle town. But anyway, yeah, Americans don't really buy that so much. Have

you ever seen the fake menu for guys American kitchen? Now? It's so if I can't read it out loud without losing my s? Yeah, yeah. So what was the acronym used?

sugar honey iced tea. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Anyway, so I don't really know much about guy theories of his work. But I mean, I feel like it was person

I feel like it's taking kind of

baking of sugar honey iced tea. In the movie Madagascar. The zebra uses that in in the movie to replace the S word because Alex is about to attack him.

Yeah, it's pretty funny that Chris Rock replaced a curse word known for cursing.

Chris Rock is a great actor. Yeah. Nice. I like his voice

you know as between me and my anger class yesterday.

Please let it be Chris Rock or or some crazy non sequitur. Let's go for it. Emma

Stone. Oh, I asked her to describe Paul McCartney in one word. And she said nice. And I said, that's the only word you can? Why do you even talk

to her at all?

Why not? What like, Well,

why would you talk to anyone like, like, if I go to a class? Well, after I asked her, you're like, Hey, I know that you're in. By the way. The Stasi goes to a class to increase her anger, harnessing

your anger or you're just like yell and do a lot of

people scream. Alright, so now I gotta know kind of like she she could? Yeah, I mean, I'm sure she's good at yelling. Yeah. If she uses to like if she has some sort of like role where she needs to yell constantly that she's practicing for. All right, cool. Yes. Caller you're on the air. Yeah, I could barely hear you. Until that skidsteer behind you to stop backing up. messing around. All right, what's up?

All right, I was just calling Thanksgiving related. I was thinking of doing some stuffed mushrooms or something or something. But I want I want a really good recipe as far as that goes. Maybe it's something a little more edgy or fresh.

Well, I mean so like a like like are we talking appetizers here small things are we talking about Turkey replacements for? Like I haven't thought about stuff mushrooms in a long time area you got any stuff mushroom action going on? recently? I mean like the trick is right. You know is it whenever I go mushroom I like to go like super duper over the top like mushroom on mushroom on mushrooms so I'll be like making like a you know you get your dried porcinis and you make like a porcine stock like a hardcore porcinis you know it'd be good hey, this would be good. What if you did a porcine risotto like like almost like an orange cine filling put it on top and then fried those suckers? That is delicious, right? Yeah, yeah, so the trick with that would be pretty good. Yeah, right. The trick is, is to cook down so the part of the mushroom that you're going to stuff into or you could just forget the mushroom entirely and just do porcine porcine orange Genie, which by the way sounds Oh with the chopped up mushroom stuffing duck cells in the middle. Boom, boom. That is gonna be delicious right there. That is gonna be delicious. porcine, resilient with like cheese

are with them as well as yes sometimes inside of the mushrooms

yeah so just do like risotto style just cook it a little bit drier let it set up right and then I would put a little I would make like a chop up like mushroom of your choice not something heavy like a porcine something light like portabello or even regular buttons cut them up, saute them down into like a nice almost like a duck cells like you would use on like a beef wellington or something like this. And then just like put a little bit of that in the center of the Erin cine ball. Take it around, you know, bread fry, and watch everyone go oh my god mushrooms as muscles is so good. So

you made me it made me start thinking I was thinking about like, fall squash as well like a squash risotto with those mushrooms. With like some chicken skin on top or something

like that. Did you know my mom was to make that's just totally separate. She used to make a a pumpkin bass lasagna. So not a red sauce, a pumpkin bass sauce and so it's it's fundamentally it's like a pumpkin soup with ricotta and you know, Parmigiano. And to tighten it up. She would toss into the sauce cavatelli along with the pasta sheets, so that wouldn't get too loose. Wow. Sounds delicious. It was and then she put mushrooms and so it all ties together. Boom, boom. Alright, so go ahead and squash yet. What do you got for me? You got to do squash,

squash puree inside the risotto, like kind of finish it off and then with the porcinis and stuff. And then top it all off with some crispy chicken skin.

That's the crotch I love. I love myself some crispy chicken skin. I think people who don't like crispy chicken skin, they have some issues. They have some like, you know, non cooking issues. They have more like mental issues. There are people who don't

eat chicken is entitled to their opinion. That is

not true. But everyone's entitled to their opinion should know better. It's the actual correct statement. chicken skin. Yeah, the correct statement is everyone's entitled to their incorrect opinion. That's what you're allowed to say. Like, if you don't eat chicken skin. That's fine. You don't I mean, like you're a vegetarian, like, you know, whatever. You grew up slaughtering chickens for a living and you just can't look at him anymore. You know, whatever. Yeah, you raise chickens for fighting and you think that using them for food is beneath the chicken. Great. But it's hard to argue that crispy chicken skin is delicious. I mean, because it just is you know what I mean? Right? Yeah. Anyway, anyway, if you make any of this stuff, please tweet back on a cooking issues and let us know how it worked out.

Oh, with with the risotto with the risotto so like you like add wine into it as you're as you're kind of stirring, it's all taking it. If you take some dried porcinis rehydrate them in the wine and then use the like mushroom wine.

It'll be really good. I like that. So I'm going to play the part of Mills Noren. Like you know, when I used to work with a French culinary studio photographer recently Mills Noren his favorite fun fact was that all of the porcinis I can't do in Mills northern accent right now I haven't worked out to it. But like all of porcinis come from Sweden, and then are shipped back to Italy and sold as Italian porcinis to the Swedes.

I can buy that. Yeah, yeah, we used to get like a ton and Denmark like wild forage and Denmark like fake Sweden now that all fairness yeah, sometimes I'd get them straight from Sweden.

So correct me if I'm wrong. Denmark is Sweden plus pigs. Right and it's flat, as flat. Yeah,

but there's a there's a famous There's a famous like story that sometimes the Swedish police will like, pull over a driver in Sweden. And they'll like talk to the talk to the motorist and be like, oh, man, this guy's definitely drunk. And then like realize he was just speaking Danish.

Well, Danish sounds more German than any whatever. Okay, what are we getting this? I'm just making fun of Denmark because they're riding high on a culinary cloud right now so they can take it. Yeah,

the Danish word for porcine. Yeah, is Karl Johan swamper.

Wait Karl yo Hannes FAPA swamp was mushroom? And who's just Karl Johans is mushroom? Yeah, who is he? Who's Carl yo has to do with mushrooms as crazy crazy country Campbell that can't believe that that exists. Anyway. Dave, are you saying something? No, no. All right. So let's get to some other cooking stuff. So okay, no information on the Sears all other than that Amazon has quite enough of them in house Anastasia, how many do we have on the water? 24 They shouldn't

be there but they're not Sears or on the water but

there's other 2400 on the water. Well, they shouldn't be there. They should be on land on dry land and what they're not. Okay. Spins halls. We still have spins halls in stock and in monitors pantry so you can get them there. And then hopefully by the Thanksgiving time we'll have them on Amazon Who the heck knows right? We're supposed to get another five 600 And by the end of the year, I was doing some spins all work yesterday on you ready for it? Durian I was spinning some durians

it has a horrible stench.

Yeah, so I went and bought A lot of dirt so I've said this before on the air that I had this kind of amazing moment years ago when I made a durian custard in a pressure cooker. That's strictly by accident. So durian speaking of funk animal bass funk, right? Animal like funk fruit bass funk. Yeah, but with the notes it's a it's a fruit that smells like it's got an animal a thing too. Yeah. Right sulfur compounds in the case of dirty and I think I believe so. Yeah. And so as as everyone who thinks about this knows, like sulfur compounds very reactive, weird things happen right? In general. A lot of these very reactive Yes, yes. So that's why when you pressure cook things that have sulfur compounds in them they change radically often they mellow so mustard seeds, mellow onions all alliums completely mellow out in the in the pressure cooker. Well known fact. It happens. And so what I you know, I was pressure cooker durian because I was like, Oh, this smells like it's sulfur II stuff. Let me throw the durian into the pressure cooker and the issue is durian is so thick that it and stinky. Yes that it cooks down and it caramelized literally caramelized is not like in the My not in the my art science. Like because the temperature actually gets higher. You literally paralyze the eternity sugar turns brown. Yeah, yeah. And there's also put there's also baby so let me get into it. So okay, so I was like, Okay, I'm going to do it. Now that I have the spins all I'm going to try to clarify the durian, so it doesn't scorch when you're reducing it. And so I went and bought a durian, which, by the way, they're expensive. They're super expensive. They're not cheap. They're super expensive. I got 500 grams of pulp out of like a How much did that weigh book or that durian that? We bought?

Five pounds. Yeah, but it seems way heavier because of the spikes.

Yeah. Anyway, so I opened the durian and immediately Booker's like, oh, and then I start blending the durian Pope. And by the way, durian is so durian has like some sort of stuff in it makes it incredibly custody it like it's got an amazing custardy texture, so it didn't break at all. So then I added some water to it, and it still didn't break at all. So I'm blending it and boogers like, oh, and then I throw it into the spins or I start spinning it and Booker's like, and he was actually cursing. I told him specifically beforehand, we were talking about the durian that he was not allowed to curse on the air because it's a family show. But what were you saying without using curses book or what were you saying about the durian yesterday?

It had. I was like, it instincts in here.

And he was like, he's like, he's like, I want to go get nose clips, and then it's anyway, so then, then this guy knocks on my door. And he's like, we're looking in Okay, so for those of you that don't know, my building has been without gas because like some idiot put a screwdriver through the main gas line to the building, like you know, a couple of months ago, and once you put a gas once you ruined the gas line, they shut off gas to the whole building. And then they have to check every individual line branch and fixture individually before they turn it back on a resident that this or a worker worker, but my my building is is three elevators, three elevator banks 20 floors, each bank, right. So it's big building. And so it took them it's I don't even know if they started weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks weeks to get the permit. Right? Because someone's got to stamp the permit and then they have to test everything so we might we potentially still are months away from having gas. So this guy comes to the door. And he's like, someone's complaining that you might be a gas leak up here. I was like, I was like, and I you know, I went back into my New York mode. So I'm like, gas leak. There's no gas in the whole building. In the old building. There's no gas How can there be a gas leak? He's like, Oh, yeah, maybe they meant it over in the in the in the other building as he leaves. I was like, hey, it was a durian. Just like guys, so like when my wife got Oh, she was like, Oh my god. It was so bad when I was spinning this stuff at night. That so bad is spinning this stuff at night that Jen literally woke up like the stench woke her from a sound sleep. He came out to try to like find out what the Holy hell is going on in in our apartment. Like smelling salts. Yeah, but it's a sign of a good during right that it's things like this. And now here's the messed up part. So it turns out durian has some sort of proteinaceous something in the juice even once it's treated with SPL that will make it stink. I don't know actually where the sulfur stuff is what makes us tick I don't know but the the smell itself is probably not a protein Booker, but the I don't know what it is to be honest.

It could we enzymatically derived from an amino acid. No,

there you go. Well, yeah, that's why you should bring a real scientist.

Where are the acids? So mean, though?

What do you know acids?

Yeah, there's so I mean to your notes are so mean.

I get it. Very strong. That's is that your first chemistry job? One of them? Yeah. Yeah, strong area. I'll use that the future. So anywho say you're like father like son. Yeah. Anyway, I wish I could come up with like that. So here's the point. So it didn't clarify very well so I pressure cook the juice, it was leftover and unfortunately, the gaskets in my Khun recon are gone and so it leaks steam a little bit and it reduced over the 45 Minute pressure cooking. And when I opened it, it had characteristic clotting like you get when you pressure cook milk, which means that is a protein there was a protein in it. That clotted together denatured yeah formed like a raft almost like a you know like you know there's milk cookies that there was like milk protein like when you cook down like oh, like milk skins. Yeah, yeah, but like crunchy anyway, so it formed that and a really good caramelized durian juice that I had killed the funk on but it was a little over tastes a little burnt it was maybe like, you know, when you take something like and you take it five degrees too high and this tastes a little bit burnt so it's like still okay, but it's like, wish it wasn't that like that. Then I took the dairy and puree put it there was leftover from the spinning which was very smooth obviously because it spins off. Then I pressure cooked that in a container in water. And it killed the smell and was actually quite good. Didn't didn't Brown as much because it wasn't reducing it was in a water bath. Sorry. So preliminary success, but I'm not going to do that in my house again. And Jen. I was like Jen is like when you open the new bar Dave, how the hell are you going to do this? Everyone's gay. You can't cook durian in you're freaking out because my goal is to have I want to make a durian old fashion so if you take the kind of like nice fruity notes of a durian and remove enough of the offensive kind of funk stuff says it's not off putting which the syrup is not but still characteristically durian. If you can do that, it would make a fantastic like old fashion with like a pineapple garnish. You know, like, you take like a lei infusion into pineapple. Garnish that with like a whiskey or fashion with durian syrup. Everybody wins. But 10s Like, no one will step foot in your freaking bar. If it's after me. Even I was like, my eyes were watering with the stench a little bit. I was like, man, because when it's spinning, right, when it's spinning, when you're blending it, you're volatilizing all that stuff. And when you're spinning, you're vitalizing all that stuff. So anyway, that was my durian. And Booker was like, I need clothespins. Dad to shut my nose. You're not being very what's the word understanding? Where are you Booker,

but it smelled terrible. I promised I wouldn't swear on the radio. Good. You said what did you say? So

I yeah, yes, yes. Yes, you can. It's okay. It's okay to hold back. Anyways, it's a cool. Sure caller you're on the air.

Hey, Dave area, let's Nick Devlin in the UK. Hey, I'm good. How are you guys? Good.

Excellent. Thank you. Excellent.

I haven't I have a Faustino related question for you? Yes. We're making a Manhattan style drink with a peach infused rice that was batching and then holding pre diluting batching and then holding a minus five Celsius in the freezer, and it's going cloudy. After how long if you had any thoughts

after how long? Immediately or or?

wait two weeks. And then because we're trying to batch in reasonable size volumes, but

right and it's just peaches? Booze.

Booze petalinux And then a cocky Americana.

Okay. Yeah. So typically, I have ascribed re clouding in, spun liquors to a couple of things in, in protein based things. It's typically protein aggregation. So protein that is solubilized, like whey protein, for instance, will aggregate over time in the presence of alcohol, lose its solubility, and flock out and then settle, right. So in milk washing situations, that's typically what's going on. That's not what's going on in this situation, because there's not that much protein in the peach. That wouldn't spin out when you're spinning it out. I think what's happening is dried. Like fully dried fruits like peaches. fully dried fruits like apricot seeds have so much pectin in them that even during the spin out, I think there's probably some residual pectin. pectin is also unstable. But in the presence of alcohol over time will join to create a haze or a cloud.

I've had that happen making like bitters, right for like citrus peel.

Right? So what I would recommend is, hit it with pack the next again, and that's that should kill any of the residual unless it's unless it's been functionalized. So much of the techniques can attack you anymore, and then see whether it settles out on you. If it settles out. I would say it's most likely impact in haze, that most likely, I mean, in fact, I think I don't remember whether I answered it or not. So I'm going to talk about it again later. But just actually, I answered that pectin question last week, the person who had the quince problem. Yeah, I answered it. I will say probably a little bit more about it. But pectin and alcohol is very interesting. And, you know, it's a well known test of pectin, that it will, it will aggregate and gel in the presence of alcohol. I don't know, frankly, what the temperature relation is on that whether the freezer is Excel. I mean, I assume it is accelerating. I assume a D solubilizes. It because pectin gets less soluble as it gets colder.

Yeah. And if it's actually frozen, you'll be like preferentially freezing the water and the packet will be more exposed to the alcohol,

right? Do you think that can be something especially if it's already pre diluted? It's at a low ABV.

It could definitely.

Also remember in a brown, so when you say it, Hayes's when it warms back up does an unhealthy or does it stay cloudy when it warms back up? It doesn't Haze is Ah, so ah, that is a oak poly phenol phenomenon probably. So, all brown liquors when they're over chilled haze. And then when they warm up, they'll uncloudy. So chill filtering works. Yeah, so. And it could be that the combination of the peach and the thing somehow clouds at a different temperature than just regular Manhattan's alone, but I used to at the bar, use as a visual indication of the correct drinking temperature that it went, it goes from being cloudy, back to being clear. And then that corresponds not because of a physics reason, but just because it happens to correspond to the proper the coldest, proper temperature, which I'll serve in Manhattan. So also, like if you're if your freezer is minus five, that's a very special freezer, you're using a dipper, like an ice cream dip or freeze or something like that, because most most freezers are going to be rocking around minus 20 Celsius.

I know we just we just jerry rigged it with a with a PID controller to to turn it on and off so it's not absolutely minus five but it hovers between minus five

and a half because minus five shouldn't cloud minus five should still be not cloudy. So it's interesting to me that it could you know it's interesting to me that that happens it could be like some combination of the oak and the I mean they're different phenomenon and I don't know mean Ariel know much better whether those phenomenon have any sort of interaction. pectin hazing versus the poly phenol like the oh, what's its I don't know what really is but why

oak alleged tannins? There you go. Yeah,

yeah. But like, do they would they interact with the pectin in any way? Um, larger complexes that will cloud at a higher temperature?

I'm not sure I know that they interact with protein. Right. But like, that's how astringency works. I would have to look into that more.

Do you remember the old detergent add protein gets out protein? No, I don't. There's one of those stupid things. Protein gets out protein. They're like trying to tell you that this this this detergent had protein and presumably some sort of enzymatic garbage. Yeah. And they're like protein gets out protein, like that has meaning that's like, you see this. There's this. There's this advertising, I forget what it's for. I don't know what to say it's like moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. Because I have no idea. I can't keep track all the medicines that are advertised on TV like this. It's always moderately severe, something moderately severe something. And they're like, because six is greater than one, we act on six things the other 1x on one six, by the way greater than one. So I love advertising, like, written by people who have no idea what's going on with the actual product. I love advertised. It's written by people that have no understanding of the underlying action of what they're doing. Don't you love it? By the way, Nick Devlin is our COMSOL and our differential or partial differential equation modelling expert. Did you know that?

Experts pushing it but

I knew he was like a physics person.

He's a Sustainable Energy House person trying to make the heat modeling trying to make it and Nick Correct Correct me if I'm wrong most most people try to go to high tech when they're doing that and don't don't just do the simple things to make their houses more efficient. Now you told me

Yeah, that's exactly you were listening. Yes. Yes.

Thank you. So so many things.

Oh, yeah. Well, when we met up Same person in Edinburgh, I was functionally asleep. So it probably looked as though everyone was speaking to a mannequin, because I was just kind of like sitting erect, but I was in fact absorbing information. By the way, for those who don't I mean, that's the only function that I have on earth is I absorb information and then later can spit it back out. So anyway, so yeah, so for those of you that are like, you know, thinking about spending a gazillion dollars on whatever system to make your house more efficient, you probably haven't done the simple stuff.

That's often true. Yeah.

I find by the way, same thing with cooking.

So when you were talking about hitting it again, when are you? Do you think in the diluted stay or, or when I've spun the booze out the first time and then hit it again? We're packed in and or just wait, chill, chill it and see what

happens? Or does the booze on its own cloud?

No, I mean, sometimes on some batches, we sometimes see a small amount of haze.

Okay, to me that the that the booze on its own does not cloud leaves me closer to the the the oak based stuff being the problem because the clouding on an oak based liquor gets worse and worse at lower temperatures when it's more and more diluted up to a point because the those those tannin things that I don't know what the hell they are, that Ariel was talking about, are are less soluble in water and alcohol. And so they have a tendency to complex, more in the well reversibly comp or whatever the hell is doing to make them cloud up in the freezer, at dilution than pure. That's why you can stick a bottle of bourbon in the freezer. And it's arrived in the freezer and it's fine. And then once you make a Manhattan and put it in the freezer, it clouds I don't. So if the booze doesn't do it on its own. Sounds like maybe the pectin is making it happen at a slightly warmer temperature than it otherwise would. But it sounds like you're really at a temperature based, reversible temperature based issue that has to do with the OIC. That's my guess, but hit it with pectin, either before pecs and X either before or after. And just see I would just do a small test and see it's a real hassle to have to respond stuff. But

empiricism always Trump's theory. Yes, that's

true. Yeah. And that but and that also goes back to what you were saying about how people don't do the easy stuff. Same thing happens in cooking people like all these complex theories. And as Anastasia says, Just go in your kitchen and do it. Why don't you just do it? Why are you asking me all this theoretical stuff? Why your school cooking? See what happens? How many times you said so many times so many times so many times so many times? All right, Nick, good to hear from you. We're gonna take a break. Okay, guys, all right, come back with more cooking issues.

Bob's Red Mill has been milling whole grains since 1978. When you mill whole grains, you get all three parts of the seed, the bran, the germ, and the endosperm. The endosperm is the main energy storage unit of the seed. That's where the growing plant gets its energy before it can start photosynthesizing and making its own. It makes up a huge portion of the grain about 83%. And it's the main source, it's used for white flour. When you make white flour, you get rid of the germ and the brand and just have the white endosperm left. It contains almost all the carbohydrates. It also contains protein and iron, and some of the other B vitamins as well. It's kind of what you classically think of when you're thinking of flour. So all that's there when you're dealing with whole grains. But when you will have whole grains, you also get the brand, which is the kind of roughage and gives that that's what gives that that kind of color to it also gives you extra fiber that helps you to be regular, and you also get the germ which adds the fat and the flavor, which we all liked from whole grains. Learn more at Bob's Red mill.com/podcast. And we're back. We got we got Booker, we got Aereo. We got Matthew, the math you haven't been saying much. Say a word say something between the mics. Sorry, between the mics. Nice. All right. So two mics between two mics. So we had a question in from, hey, you know what Ariel might know about this? It's good. I think I might have addressed it a little bit last week, but we'll readdress it since Ariel's here. Kyle writes in about cocktail aging. By the way, before we leave, we'll talk Thanksgiving just remind me when we have like a little bit time left we'll do Thanksgiving. I've been intrigued by I think we did do this by suevey Low Temp method of mimicking the effects of cocktail aging. recently started tinkering with the concept with mixed results were that Tony kill Yarrow has been doing this technique for many years and more recently, it's produced a line of bottled Negroni. What do you think about using the groaning as its own plural, their bottled Negroni? Wouldn't America In which saying the grannies,