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Hello and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to like 1245 One o'clock from Roberta's pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. joined as usual witness dasya the hammer Lopez how're you doing? Sounds good. Yeah. Doing all right. Got Dave in the booth. Hello, how you doing? Good. How are you? I'm doing well. And I'm happy that even though this has been another terrible week in the United States of America, I'm glad to say you know, I have some friends here today. So if we will have a good discussion that is, you know, not about the horrible things that are happening outside of our little container box studio. I'm joined today by Mandy Athill and Daniel Patterson. Mandy is the world renowned. perfumer, is that the correct term? Yes. perfumer par excellence who's, who's kind of if a human has a main thrust to their life, it's that she is interested in frequencies that are derived naturally sourcing them, finding them, collecting them, compounding them, using them thinking about them writing about them, yes or no?

Absolutely. Yes.

And now Daniel is a little more difficult to kind of because, you know, being in the, you know, food world myself, I know, everyone hates to be kind of boxed in. But I will say that, you know, I guess I first had your food at qualico A billion years ago and then at qua again, like, uh, you know, half a billion years ago. But, you know, Dan has always struck me as very he's one of the thoughtful chefs. So he's one of the kind of, you know, that generation of chefs that just really to the advantage of the food, I would say, is just very thoughtful about kind of what he does, how he does. It, why he why he does it, why he uses what he uses also, a serious Control Freak Hotel. You guys little story from quiet Daniels actually. He was like setting the Stasi and I were on a massive citrus tasting. I think it was a citrus tasting rice does or was it Merle Haggard it was it was Merle Haggard. It's Merle Haggard. We were going back and Merle Haggard was alive. We were going to Merle Haggard concert so that we could get him to school. We had this series where we were getting people to drink shots of aqua VT, we were taking pictures of them, you know, before, during, and after, which, you know, someday maybe we'll start again, I don't know, who knows. Anyways, so we're there. And, you know, we go to the we go to the restaurant, and after the meal, Daniel consenting, he's like, So how'd you like it? He's like, I really enjoyed it, which I did. We had a great meal. And, hey, well, first of all, he was standing. Remember, he was standing, we scold him, and he was standing. Because remember, it was right next to a strip club. And there was that painting of the strip stuff outside. Anyway, so he then he asked me how my meal was last time I was there, which had been like maybe two or three years prior, and was super angry at me that I didn't think that the first meal I had, there was absolute garbage compared to the current meal I'd had. Because because, and this is super interesting. He had learned so much more in life over those intervening like two to three years, and was mad at me at not being able to discern immediately the extra kind of knowledge. And this goes to show kind of like a person who's always kind of thinking about what they do. Now, they The reason they're here, not just because you know, they want to be here, but they're on a book tour, they just released a new book called The Art of flavor, right? Yes, it's with Riverside, which is river head head should have written it on a file card for me river head, which I can only remember as being apparently, I've been told, the greatest of all the penguin imprints like Penguin Classics are are useless, like piles of garbage, whereas Anastasia would say, paperweights and or things to separate, you know, the only thing that stops he uses my book for is to separate hot foods from cold foods when she's going to potlucks, it's the exact one smart. Yes, exact correct insulator thickness, and fitting into a tote bag to separate, you know, like a MC DLT style hot and cold. So, yeah, so maybe other Penguin Books can be there. But this this imprint, not

like that. So it's great. Yeah, that's all.

So this is not the first collaboration you guys have had, right?

This is our second book together. Okay. And

the first one aroma, which was what?

We did that with artisan and it was about the it was had real, she had essential oils as components of recipes for food. And for like personal care and fragrance things. This book is completely different. Right. And

both of you, you know, aside from when you're writing together, right apart, like, you know, obviously then you have books, but also you write for, like you've written for the New York Times Magazine, right? And, you know, do you do like, straight up West Coast writing to or like I read you in the New York Times, but do you do all those like evil papers out there on your side of the they don't want me? No? Well, you've always had kind of this like weird relationship with San Francisco. Right? I mean, like, it's kind of it is your town, but I don't know you like I don't I don't you've never said it to me. But he always seems that you are bucking whatever trend happens to be current there at that time. Right. It's like you're kind of a know a little bit different, like a little bit.

I don't know, man, I think you had it right. The first time a little more difficult. Right? You could have stopped?

Yeah, would have been right. All right. So now when you guys are writing together, how does it How does it How does that work? Do you like parcel it out into pieces? Do you lump it all together? You like I'll take this chapter. I'll take this chapter like how does it How does it work?

So the way book started, was, I was at Mandy's studio, and we're talking and she was actually talking about her creative process when she puts together a perfume and it was just very much like, like how I think about putting together a dish. And so and he said, you know, we should write a book about that. You know, like we wrote about aroma. We should write about flavor. And I thought to myself, yeah, let's do it. How harsh? And that was three years ago.

Yeah, no, Writing is hard. It sucks. I hate it. Do you like it? I know you do it. Do you like it? No, no, it's terrible. Right? What are you man? Do you like it?

No. But one thing when there's a say was Daniel and I did really spend like, once a week, every week going over that we did do the writing together. There are areas that are much more Daniels than mine in the book that are his, like complete chapters. I don't think I had much input in a few things. And a few for me as well. But the bulk of the whole book is this combined mind that we had together, finishing each other sentences. You know, he was really there with me together the two of us it was very exhilarating and exciting.

Sounds like an utter and complete nightmare to me.

It was good. It was good. So here's what's awesome is that I learned so much in this process. Like I could have never written this book myself. Right. So I thought I knew about flavor and I did intuitively and we got this great quote from Jack but about how it was like, was it the Cartesian theory behind all of his intuitive process, which, like was kind of how I felt and, and once you start unpacking, like the process of how you think about what you put together, right, so like carrots and orange, they go together, everyone knows that, but no one ever tells you why they go together. And so that was really what the book was about was like a million books can tell you what to put together. But you know, especially for the home clerk, it's kind of mysterious, right? So, so the process by which we, we found our way through the book was, as much as anything else, not a writing thing, but a structural thing. How do you take something so nonlinear and make it in linear, which is what a book is, you read one chapter, another chapter, another chapter. And the process was that, you know, we would, Mandy would lend a lot of her language that she had developed for perfume, in terms of locking and burying. So when two flavors joined together to create something that's new, or bearing or something is very, very strong, and you have to push it down. So it doesn't dominate, like, like rosemary or anchovies, or something like that, how to think about what the next process is, and what I realize is a cook. And you can probably relate to this. A lot of the decisions we make are compound decisions. So one things I realized early on, is that a cook does something it seems like you do one thing you actually are deciding like three or four things at once. What's the cooking process? What are you adding? And then what what is the herb that's going to come later, and all of this stuff kind of becomes one. And so what working with Mandy really helped me with was teasing this out, to be able to see with some kind of clarity, all of the different steps that happen along the way.

Well, so to that point, you know, you you know, I've heard Mandy talk many times about kind of the structure of like a perfume, breaking it down into and I wrote it in my magical books, I wouldn't have to do it from memory, top, middle, and kind of base nodes, right. And then what was interesting is seeing that translated into kind of a cooks flavor thing, and it didn't actually necessarily get translated 100% The way I thought it was gonna get translated, so you know, it is either well, you're really Yeah, so it's interesting to me. So I don't know, if you want to spend a minute talking about it in terms of perfume, and then how, like that rubric then was applied in the book to food. I

will Oh, well, I just want to make one comment on Daniel's comment first, which is, I was kind of more of a research person about, you know, researching flavor and thinking about flavor. And I thought for a while, in fact, I asked Harold, you know, can you just tell me where I can find like, you know, how people thought about flavor of how people put things together? What were the the ways you were thinking about creating flavor, I was shocked at how little there was, there was a lot historically about what people use, but not about the thinking, you know, because the creation of flavor is stuff that's moving and dynamic. It's not static, you can't just when you put this with this, and you have that, which reminded me so much of perfume. So in perfume, we talk about top, middle and base notes. And so top notes are things that reach your sense of smell very quickly and disappear quickly, they're often kind of sharp in their smell. And then middle notes have kind of usually more layers to them. And they bridge that distance between the top notes which reach your sense of smell quickly and disappear. And last kind of longer than there's bass notes that are usually deep and rich and heavy, and come from like, roots and barks and heavier things. And so when you're thinking about smells, you're thinking about that kind of shape and dynamic and what they do to each other as they're evolving. So where we came to with we applied some of that to food, which I think is one of the more abstract ideas in the book. I think like baring and lacking stuff are easier to get your head behind. But you should say the four rules I think you should because that plays

well but even before we get to the four rules, which we obviously need to get to so like it seems so on a perfume, you know you have these, how do you contrast like a bass note like you say bark with more of whatever you call them fix it is or what do they

are the bass notes are the fixatives. So bass now to the things that lasts the longest, and they make the perfume stay the longest or the heaviest molecules,

but on the food side, it translates into the more I don't want to say bland, but kind of like the more overwritten notes. So when you transfer it from a perfume where it's literally the thing that's holding literally, by the way, apparently according to McGee, I was talking to him holding the high notes down, you know what I mean? So that they stay there long.

Yes, yes. By the way,

whenever she says Harold is our good friend, Harold McGee, I assume unless there's another there is only one arrow, it's like he's like the Madonna of the food world's terrible. So the two so the so in like, in a food context, Daniel, you're talking more like the beans side of the equation. So that seems to me to be an interesting an interesting shift going from the one regime to the other.

You have so One way to think about, so I did a couple of braised chicken recipes. So the chicken would be, is one of the things about the book, there's no luxury ingredients, it's all the stuff you can get at the supermarket, we really wanted this to be a book, there's like 8085 recipes, they're all easy, because I think that's really important is if you're gonna show something, you know, you got to show it in a way that people can actually do it, right. So braised chicken, all based on, you know, basically water, onion, water, you know, but then there's a middle note. So it could be, for example, orange, saffron, and then a top note, which could be terragon. Right. So that is a top middle base, where you have your, your depth, you know, the thing holding it down, which is the stew and all those things locking together, you have this middle note, which connects with like, maybe a little bit of Anna's flavors, a little bit of orange, and then the sharp Paragon at the top, which kind of lifts it up. But it could also be with carrots as your base, right. And then you need a middle that maybe is miso, and maybe a top that's like, like cilantro or something. So it's relative, right. So if you think about playing a piano or anything, write a musical instrument, you could have a chord, where the C is very high or very low, but the the relationship between top middle and base is what's important and not a static bass always has to be this

right conceptually, like going to beans for a second. Like if you're gonna go like Mexican, you're gonna have like a, you know, certain ones, like you're gonna have like, oh, has Santa or something inside the beans. an herb like that, although it's very on its own. I mean, and even if you're, if you know, it's there, it's very itself, you know what I mean? Yet it, it seems to me to be part of the baseness of the beans. So it's like so mentally, even though something I just want to try to get to is, when you're thinking about it, it seems like it's not just oh, the like the herb is going to function as a top note, in this case, because some herbs can be part of the base aspect of it too, right.

So that what you're talking about is this kind of magical, transformative ability that's like kind of at the heart of, of the transformative effect of cooking, which is that some things bind. And so this is a big thing that and many can probably speak to this more because she was more versed in it than I am. But each every plant, I mean all things, but especially plants, which have hundreds of aromatic molecules. They like we call it nature's original flavor. So the way that if you look at the composition of an herb is put together, there'll be two, three things at the top aromatic molecules that are dominant with a ton of other stuff. But it could be something way, way down. That's point 00 5%. That makes, you know, an herb what it is. And it could be that herbs share similar top two or three, but then slightly different ratios. So how you mix things together and how they bind together makes things what they are. So that's just within one ingredient. So each ingredient contains a multitude. So the way we describe it as facets, right, so you have a predominant flavor. But then you have these facets that could be floral, that could be peppery. But in the case of the beans, the herb, there's some connection that happens with those facets that makes it bind together. So yeah, so and we which we call locking, so it sticks out a little bit on top right, you can recognize it. But then something else kind of dovetails into the beans and make something that wasn't there before. And that's kind of like how to anticipate that, how to build on it and how to actually plan for it is one of the things that we tried to talk about in the book.

Nice. Oh, by the way, call your all of your flavor related questions in to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 So you want to talk about the four we actually got a we got a caller Oh, yeah. All right. Caller you're on the air. Caller Hello. Still alive. Me yellow. There. We got another one. Caller you're on the air. Hello. Hello. Hi. Dave. Yes.

Hey, what's up Dave amo sage and Philadelphia. How you guys doing today? All right, how you doing? I'm good. I'm a I'm a 20 year olds line chef. And I was just wondering, do you guys have any suggestions on where what like food cities I should move to because I'm kind of stuck in a rut where I am trying to break out as my learn and move to accept me suggestions.

Well, so let me first some caveats. Are you do you want to stay in the United States of America or No,

I doesn't matter. All right, well, I'm

gonna let I'm gonna let Dan first of all, like, I, like I've lived in New York since, like, forever. So I'm a huge New York guy. So I'm going to step away from my New York microphone here for a minute. I'm gonna let Daniel take this.

So, so you're in Philadelphia now? Is that right that you're in Philadelphia? Now? Is that what you're saying? Yeah. So my personal opinion is that there's good food everywhere I from what Philadelphia has a great scene and a lot going on. So one thing I would say is or wonder, is how deeply you explored, you know, your own environment, because I think a lot of people are doing a lot of different kinds of things, not necessarily the things you might see in magazines, and stuff like that. But there's a lot going on. And then beyond that, I think everywhere has something to offer. It's more like, the culture that you want to live with, and the kind of people you want to be around and kind of people you want to cook for. So those are the things that I would think about, but no matter where you go, like food is about people. And so however you connect to people, that's, that's like, the most important thing

would you like go into a place that has like major, like universal, there's obviously places that are known for having a boat ton of people who are working hard in the in the food industry, right, like New York, San Francisco, this kind of stuff, you have places that are known for good ingredients, you have places that are known for one particular lifestyle of, you know, one particular style of food, or one particular kind of restaurant tour anything? Yeah, I think it's like, you're the kind of guy Daniel, it's more like, it's, it's like, like, you almost prefer a constraint, right? I mean, like, it's like, it's like he, you know, rather be like, you only have this stick in this fire. Let's see what you can do with it. And so I think what he's saying is, it's almost like your, your location is kind of like that, like, you're where you are, is kind of like that. Now, I will say, though, that I think it's extremely helpful. Not that I get to do it that often. But to travel around and taste a lot of food, go to a lot of places, especially, you know, if you come from, like an eastern seaboard kind of reality, where you tend to believe that kind of all there is, is kind of what you see in life. It's a huge advantage to go like taste other people's stuff tastes other people's. And it is helpful, I think, to look at, you know, who who's the best at X, Y, or Z? Like, I hate to say it like West Coast is still the best coffee place if you're interested in learning about what's fresh. And going on that Fred vino in coffee

uses the best coffee and food place,

no best coffee, best place to go to learn about coffee business. The best place to learn about citrus is definitely in right now. I think probably in California. But I think it's like if you want to go to a particular restaurant, like I had a guy used to work with it went out to California to work for you. You know what I mean? Like, when, like in when, oh, you know, years ago. And I think like it is useful to find someone that you think is interesting, and go to work for that particular person rather than working for a particular place. Because I think you can learn a lot about even in, you know, I mean, I guess the chef, and you probably says that, you know, how long have you want someone to devote to you? Like a year, at least?

Yeah, and you know, but but like, I got out of this day to day chef thing a couple years ago. And so maybe my opinions have changed a little bit. But I think the most important thing is whatever you do, commit yourself to it. 100%. And it's not about time. It's about like, are you going to open your heart to this? Are you going to you're going to listen? Are you going to contribute? Are you going to learn? Because if you do, naturally, you'll stay there a long time. Right? I

think what do you think about when you get somewhere and you realize that whoever you're working with you don't respect them anymore? Just get out right now or stick with it?

Oh, yeah. Be honest. And be polite. And just say this isn't the place for me. Give a proper notice. Move on? Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. So it's not necessarily it's not necessarily bad to cut and run. It's bad to cut and run if you're doing it just because you're lazy. Or right. I mean, that's the main thing. Like

actually, if you're lazy, we definitely want you to cut

Oh, man, hilarious. Can I ask Kohler question? Oh, should I? Can I ask the caller a question? Yeah. That's cool. That's Dave. That's Dave in the booth asking you. Hey, caller what's your favorite fun place in Philly. So thanks. I think we lost. All right, cool. All right. So let's go to well, if we have another caller, they put them on but like while we're doing Oh, can I do this? Oh, yeah. When you tell people what you're doing? Yeah.

So when Daniel talks about nature being the original flavorist I have these little examples for it for you guys. And then you can discuss them on the air. So inside of every we have this thing in the book called the flavor compass, which is really part of my world which is the aroma essential oil rich in Greek The ants that people use for cooking that don't really take up a lot of real estate on the plate, but are incredibly important for flavor. So those are the flowers, the herbs, the citrus and the spices. And people usually turn to those and think of those as something that's really going to create flavor. And I think they often think of them with a very broad brush and it kind of interchangeability. So we made this flavor compass to kind of really delineate the differences in flavors between things that are very near each other, like the differences between the herbs, because one of the things I had found in perfume is really picking the specific thing you want like lemon over lime or, or basil over Terragen. And then taking that basil and putting it together with another flavor and thinking very creatively about it can completely change what you're doing, not just any citrus, not just any spice, and also a lot of the spices that make it to the market are depleted of their essential oils. So I was very, very keen on telling people to stick their fingers in them and see if their fingers smells like stick there if they can touch them and smell the ingredient how important that is. And so in nature,

you just gross and sassy.

And so well if you have a clove I think it's like important to make sure it smells like a clove. So one of the one of the things that I bought for y'all to smell is is just within just within one species like basil, of which there are many different kinds of basil is certain ones are much more spicy and certain ones are much more floral. So sweet basil, which is what most people think of all the time and they use is has a very large amount of an aroma molecule called linalool. And little little is kind of, I don't know if Harold talk to you about little, but it's very important to him. Little little is the floral aroma that's in so many herbs. So a lot of times if you're using an herb herb has gone to flower, the linalool and there's making it much more floral. So in a certain way, you already using florals. On the other hand, Thai basil has a lot of eugenol, which is the main aroma molecule and cloves. So I just wanted you to can just to smell the difference and smell the difference between the two Basil is but then about their operating facet, which is what we call it, which would then lock with something else and make your dish more spicy or more floral. So suddenly

your sweet basil has a huge anise hit like Thai does, like do they always have Anacin them though? Yeah, but like globe, that standard globe does not have nearly as much of an anus hit least when you're using it as a fresh leaf.

Yes, that's a much more Annecy one. That is a much more and which is why

it's so good and Driggs. Alright,

that's a very from a practical standpoint, I mean, because all this stuff, you know, that's it's very esoteric, and you're talking about aroma molecules. But the reality is that, you know, if you know that something as more of a floral component, let's say you're doing some with Meyer lemon, or you want to do some with basil, you're gonna pick the basil that has more of a floral component that will lock with the floral of the Meyer lemon. Or maybe you have something like really sweet and flat, like orange, you might want to take something spicier. So knowing those kinds of components allow for either kind of something that's consonant for something that's kind of different. But either way, you're doing it consciously. And so knowing a little bit how things are put together, you know, kind of let you also with substitutes, right? What's the worst question you ever get when you're writing a recipe? What can I substitute for that? Well, you can substitute this recipe for another recipe. But

I'm gonna use that from now on can I use that as long as I credit you. That's the client that's now the Daniel Patterson substitution you can, you may substitute a different recipe.

I think the whole idea of thinking about ingredients as having facets and thinking about those facets as lacking together is what creates flavor. And just having that key. Just having that tool and thinking that way will impact the whole way you think about cooking, and the whole way you think about creating flavor.

So let me go to your compass for a minute because it's interesting. It's also interesting kind of what you chose because it is part of a specific structure. So like I always think about like, what, what a cook's toolkit is like where are they where are they going? Where's their head at like, what are they what are they reaching for? Right? Yes, because there's whole groups of people that don't really cook with citrus at all right? Now that got it they unless their food sucks they have to have some sort of something to brighten it up but it's interesting that like, and I you know, like you guys like I'm reaching for the citrus because I'm you know, I have access to it all year round now and like it's there even though I live in New York, not in California. By the way the citrus in California is really freaking ridiculous, especially the appeals. The citrus appeals in California are preposterously good so like the fruit like you know, like if you'd like it's okay, you don't I mean like like if you're gonna get like a mellow or something like that. Yeah, okay. It's like all pith but like the peels out of California are just freakin gorgeous and smell amazing. No

You know, the peels are where all the oils are, if you stick your finger, I'm always talking about putting the band in grocery stores. I mean, if I ever was like really successful, it seemed me coming they'd like say, put up like garlic. But if you stick your finger into the peel of any citrus, you will have the oil right on your fingers. Whereas the juice is different. It has some but not like the peels. Yeah,

so by the way, my grandma used to get the chocolate sample boxes and she would push her freaking thumb through the bottom of every love her freaking or candy love

to me to to find the good ones.

Is there such a thing though? They're all filled with good, okay. Yeah, well, yes,

there is. But with chocolate. I don't understand. Like, what's it going to do? Release the aroma?

No, you get to find out how hard I've done this. I am like this. You get to find out what's inside without having to go through the top. And then you can just quietly put it back. Yeah. So you would

go and I would turn everyone over. I'm like grandma. Like, anyway, wait, Dave, you saying we got someone? You want to take a quick break and we'll take a call. Or you want to take the caller first since they're on the freakin line. Yeah, right. Fine. All right, caller you're on the air. Hello. Hi.

Hi. I am calling about a question for a wedding. I am calling because I have the great idea. My partner disagrees to have Punchbowl of Orbitz at our wedding. And since Orbitz stopped existing about 20 years ago, how do I make my own?

Okay, the very first thing I would do is do exactly what the person you're getting married to says to do. Regarding your potential, that's the very first alright. Orbitz the recipe. I don't remember whether Kai most published a Martin lares published the recipe for orbits. But CP Kelco, who makes gel and orbits is a gel and trick CP Kelco released the recipe a number of times what it is is is the the balls are gel and balls, primarily low Aysel Joanne balls that are suspended in a very light gel and fluid gel. And the trick of it is this, the density first of all the balls need to be small. And you can set gel in into very small balls just like you would drop ag are presuming you have a good enough sequester. And so and you make the base so that you don't have kind of any kind of free calcium in your liquid at all, you can make a straight gelatin ball much like you'd make an alginate ball if you wanted to make those things, which I don't. And then the major major major trick here is one, you're going to want to store those balls in colored fluid until just before the of the same relatively isotonic fluid, right up until right beforehand and then rinse them off so they don't bleed into your liquid. And the other thing is, the density of the balls has to almost exactly match the density of the fluid. I don't mean the thickness, everyone always gets this wrong. And you notice this everyone always Miss Miss, you know misconstrues density and texture is the same thing. Density is just weight, volume texture is how thick something is. So you need almost exactly the same density. So same sugar levels, same everything in order for it to get to float. The problem with it is that if you're just picking up with a with a with it, you can get it to suspend it's not a problem but the surface of orbits. So when you drank orbits, you probably drank it out of a bottle. And so you never saw the surface of it in a nice big glass coming up. But it's got a Santa Claus jiggling bowl full of jelly belly kind of a situation going on on the surface, right? And it's impossible to not have that they also dope it with a slight, slight bit of xanthan. So it's a slight bit of xanthan and and Jalen, but if if your spouse to be does not wish you to do this, don't do it because it's just a nightmare. You know, when you should do it. You should do it on your first anniversary.

I think I think I can I think I can get away with this one. All right. Yeah.

All right, man pushing for me to say, look, I've been married. I've been married 22 years now. And like most times that I've said, I'm just gonna do it. I regret it. I'm just gonna say that. And you know what I mean? Most of the times when I'm like, I realized that I should not do this. This is not even just in marriage. This just in life in general most of the time when I'm when I know beforehand that it's going to cause problems and I do it anyway. Like sometimes I'm like, No, this is gonna be great. And then like I do it and like I was like, See, that was great. But most of the time I'm like, man, they were right. I was I should not have done that.

Thank you for the answer. And I have one small confirmation that something that can ask chocolate bars that are out of the freezer because Do

we mean like like what? Well, chocolate bars are best stored in a low in a low humidity cool environment because they think is when you freeze a chocolate bar it's gonna get a lot of condensation on it as it comes up to unless it's like vacu wrapped or something like this. I don't really know if you guys know that chocolate bars

last long enough to need Why aren't you eating them sooner?

Well maybe he's getting his has a specific one he wants to keep it for the wedding like maybe he was gifted some like unique chocolate bar and he wants to save it for the wedding.

One backpack wine cellar it'll be fine. There you go backpack

just don't let it go through a lot of temperature fluctuation so it blooms out alrighty, same thing by the way coffee coffee in and out of the freezer highly problematic. highly problematic. Open it vacuum it once once use it right away roasted use it right away. That's that's the correct answer. All right. So quick break. Okay, those kind of right back with some cooking issues

Bob Moore is the founder of Bob's Red Mill, top quality supplier of grains, flours and general nutritional goodness from Oregon. He's talking to us about their signature millstones, a very specific way of making whole grain flour. So what's the secret Bob?

Follow me to the mailroom. Well, these are just like the mill stones that the Romans used to grind their grains. In fact, the stones came from the same quarry near Paris, France, where the Romans got their stones. The company that makes our millstones pulls their quartz from the same quarry. And they make Mills for us that are just wonderful.

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We think we can make a difference by sticking to the traditional way of stone milling. And so that's what we're doing.

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And we are back with Mandy F tail. And Daniel Patterson. By the way, Daniel, what's the name of that? author who writes a million books that has a similar name that writes like novels? What's that? There's a Patterson that writes like a boat ton of novels. Yes. James Patterson. You ever get confused for him?

No, no,

they say the famous Arnold's but they don't do anything. They don't write any they're like, you know, famous musicians to confuse for Tom Arnold. Yes, all the time. Cool. I wish that would mean that I was confused for anyone. You know, I mean, that would mean that somebody cared. So I want to hit like a pity party on violence. Alright, so. So. So we're gonna get back into kind of the flow of the book in a minute. But I want to a couple of things. One, I want to talk about the flavor industry a little bit because I know there's some serious issues here. Mandy especially has some bones to pick with them. And so we'll we'll get into it. But one is a recipe that just jumped out at me so hard that I have to talk up to ask and talk about it. And it's carrots and coffee. It's so it's very rare that you see a recipe where you're like, what you don't I mean, you're like what they do, and then you like you like you have to go and you have to look at it. So I'll set it up. Right. So you get your turn on your oven to 350. Right, you wash but do not peel your carrots Correct. Do you dry them? No, it doesn't matter do you oil them, oil them right at salt them. Now here's you put it into a baking dish. But before you put into the baking dish, you line the bottom of the baking dish with whole roasted coffee beans. You then cover the dish so it's sealed in effect, which means that presumably as you roast for the next at 350 degrees for the next 45 minutes to an hour or something like that. They're not going to get to they're not going to get too dark. They're not going to lose that much moisture because they're sealed in right. So this is just struck me as like the craziest. Like, like not crazy but just like I haven't seen this before, so why don't you talk about that. is a recipe and where did it come from the restaurant? Is it something you guys discussed? What what is that?

Yeah. So that recipe that was a fun one, I was actually cooking with Rene recepie. From Noma restaurant, it was in my house, it was for a magazine article in 2011. And we did like, I don't know, 1518 recipes over two days together. And, and at one point, we'd bought a squash, right, winter squash, small like turban squash or something. And, and Renee had in his hand, and I was at the coffee machine, because we were both drinking coffee constantly. And so I was grinding coffee. And he looked at me said, what do we do with this? And I don't know, I just looked at the coffee. And I looked at this coffee. And then he said, Why don't we bury it in coffee beans. And so we did. And it was pretty magical, the way that the coffee infused into the squash. So then I took that back and started roasting. I thought, well, how can I adapt this. And so we did it with baby carrots. And, and then Rene went back to normal start burying things and spices. So the general idea of burying something and roasting it and an aromatic environment is is kind of magical, because what happens over the time is that the softening of the fiber and the and the steaming, that happens, creates this, this environment in which the carrot which is kind of sweet, and earthy, locks with coffee, which is earthy and bitter, and create something that's neither carrot nor coffee. So these things happen all the time. But this particular one was just like crazy.

That's the definition of locking right there, which is where you put two things together, and very simple two things, and that they're there their aroma and flavor locks together to create something that's just fantastic. It's very simple. Even though it's