Hello, everybody, and welcome to a brand new series on heritage radio network called the culinary call sheet where we give a peek into the back kitchen of culinary media. I'm your host, April Jones,

and I'm your co host, Darren bresnitz. Part of why we started the show was to offer an unofficial mentorship for anyone who's interested in learning about all aspects of food and video, whether that's TV, social media online, or just something you want to do for fun.

Absolutely what was once niche or a little silly, as I'm sure you remember, Darren, when we started out, this man has now become such a massive playing field for so many creatives using food as the medium.

It's something that has driven us professionally and personally, for so many years. What excites me the most about this show is that we're going to sit down with some of the industry leaders to hear how they made it and what drew them into this industry.

With 20 years in the culinary production game ourselves. We're hoping we can give through these conversations an insider's view into personal stories from the field, as well as an in depth behind the scenes look into some of the most popular food programming. In today's evolving culinary media landscape.

We'll be covering everything from how to style your food, to how to license IP, to developing your own ideas, and some tips from the masters of how to host your own show.

Yeah, it's a little bit of conversation, how to and how do you do the things that you do in color media, which I'm so excited about? I love so many of the guests that are coming on this season. We have talent from Food Network from Vice media eater refinery 29,

we've met some of the best people in the world both in front of and behind the camera. And we're bringing them all together to share their stories, their delicious adventure and their unique journey into this crazy world.

So to be the first to hear our episodes when they launched this fall, go to wherever podcasts are streaming and hit subscribe and make sure to give us a follow at the Culinary call sheet on Instagram.

I'm Lisa held a food journalist and podcast host presenting behind the label with American Humane produced by Heritage radio network for Springer Mountain farms. This podcast series dives into what the American Humane Certified label really means. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. This week on meat and three we're spotlighting the people who prepare our meat before it reaches our plates. We hear from whole animal butchers, the brains behind a meat vending machine, California cattle ranchers and a Master of charcuterie who isn't using meat at all.

It's like a smoked and grilled center stock for the broccoli. And then it gets finished with some mustard, barbecue sauce and sauerkraut

ranching and farming being as difficult as it is. You know it's just one thing after another and at some point you just give up I had

a wild idea that if I learned butchery maybe I could start to be kind of a link in the supply chain.

Listen to meat and three a turns weekly food news roundup wherever you get your podcasts

Hello and welcome to cookie issues. This is Dave another host with cookies just coming to you live from the Lower East Side of Manhattan joined as usual with Anastasia the hammer Lopes in Stamford, Connecticut on the beautiful Long Island Sound How you doing stuff? Yeah, we got John, customer service extraordinaire for Booker and DAX coming to you from the Murray Hill there. How you doing? Not too bad. Thanks. got Matt and his Rhode Island booth. All good. There we go, man. Yeah. And joined by joined by today's special guests, which, with no further ado, I'll talk about why we're late in a second. But like, there is no good excuse, but I'll tell you what happened anyway. We have from kitchen arts and letters coming back on the show for his second appearance. Matt sartwell How're you doing?

I'm well, thank you. appreciate having you back.

Yeah, well, it's great to have you back. You know, like we had to have you back though for a specific reason. Now I'm going to tell you folks who I don't know if this is your first time tuning in or whatever. Kitchen Arts and Letters is the like, well put this way. It's the best cookbook store I've ever been in. I will say without any hesitation. It is at least the premier cookbook store in the United States. Right. I have been to a decent a good cook bookstore in Edinburgh. Really good. I will say kitchen Arts and Letters is a better cook bookstore. Now. I have not been everywhere on Earth. So I can't say that is the greatest cook bookstore on earth just because I haven't been everywhere on Earth. But you get my point. Kitson, arts and letters is the the store for cooks, people who like food, even if you're tangentially interested in food and the reason to go to kitchen arts and letters, and not somewhere else is because not only is it a store full of books, it is a store full of people who know about the books. And I know a lot of people know about books, but the way kitchen Arts and Letters knows about cookbooks, the way you know about your best friends, the way you know about like the family stories of your best friends. And that is the reason because a cookbook is so much more enjoyable. When you can hear the history behind it when you know about it. You're not just getting random opinions from people on the internet. It's it's just it's like a treasure that needs to be preserved. And it's in the It's On Lex in the in the 90s was between 91 to 9390 30/94 93 and 94. Right. So it's like if you're walking in between the two subway stations, you got to choose where you're going to get out of 86 or at 96. And then you got to figure out whether you're gonna walk because it's on that weird hilly area in Manhattan. Right, it's on that weird. You're in that weird hilly zone. It's like the only hilly place in Manhattan.

If you hate Hills get off at 86th Street.

All right here that folks if you hate hills, I don't hate hills. If you hate Hills get off an 86th Street

ever is typing stop typing or go on mute. So that you Dave, no,

I don't even have a computer stars. The reason I'm late is because I was plugging in my Yeti Blue Microphone, which in order to make it look professional, it's like the size of a small truck. And then I was spinning it around because you can't put you have to spin it around to plug in the USB. and I spun it around and it smacked my my brand new cup of espresso and shot my espresso against my like my my wife's white painted wall. Remember, she's the architect and that splashed into my what I thought was a good idea open frame computer, and zoop Zorch didn't like like my computer smells great, like espresso, but it no longer is a computer. So after the radio show, I have to go like, you know, hopefully it dries out and Stasi was like, Well, you don't use milk

is the real, the real killer. But you should you can't turn it upside down. Right, whatever you're talking about.

Now, now I'm gonna let it dry out. I mean, like, I honestly, it didn't fry the power. So whatever it did shorted something in the actual computer. So I'm gonna let it dry for an hour or two. And then I'm going to turn it on and pray. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's basically all I can do. But like I had all of my questions for today, like all of my notes, everything. And it was like literally like Okay, now it's time to plug in the microphone and get on to get on a zoom. And boom, gone anyway. So there was a coffee question that just came in in the chat. I can append deck.

All right. All right, what type of coffee how he made it and all that crap.

No, no, it wasn't about that. No, no, it was it is a short what is your take on our Oh versus water? softeners for coffee, but I'm wondering what either of them help you in your current situation?

Look, if you're going to use look, the point with coffee is is that you don't want your water like hyper hyper pure for coffee. Right? So I mean, it probably depends on exactly what kind of coffee you're going to make but just go get the books by route by the way, Matt and as have you on what are your thoughts on the on the route coffee books? Are those still the best?

I have to say I have struggled to get them so I'm not sure what availability is like,

because he Why is he private publishing those?

I believe so I have to go back and look it's been a while since I made that effort. You know, I rely a lot on notes that I bury and then have to go dig out for myself on on sourcing all these things.

Right. But I mean, by the way for best what I mean is like technical stuff for people who are brewing and making espresso as he used to but his is he's is that still considered like the target that everyone shoots for his work or no? Is there a new target that people

I don't think there's a newer better target? No, no. Okay.

Yeah, I mean look like like, like back in the in the late 90s, early 2000s. I would say David Schomer is the book to go to if you're interested in espresso, or you know illes the chemistry of quality which has a lot on water in it as well. But yeah, I think you know, what he's talking about is probably better but you want the right number of dissolved solids in your coffee. In fact, I forget which one of the which one of the Ely family I was dealing with the scientists the younger one He's rich, too. He dresses very fancy. I met him and he had his nice Italian suit on at the Mandarin Oriental in New York. This was maybe 12 1314 years ago. And I was like, I'm having trouble with my espresso. And he's like, the water here is not right for the perfect espresso. And that's because espresso because New York water is famously soft. So he was Pooh poohing the entire concept of making espresso with the water that I have at my disposal. And here in New York, we have some of the finest water you could get anywhere. Anyway. So like, my point is, is that I think aro if your water is garbage, then go aro and then put stuff back into it. Right? What do you think was a was that a decent answer? No, that sounds good. And he worked in the cookbook, too. So there you go. Now, you have some of those books are hard to get, especially ones that like geeks go for and that are kind of self published and are not distributed to normal channels can be a pain, right, Matt?

Yeah, I mean, the one of the problems is that when people self publish, they don't really think about anything other than what they're writing. And then the whole distribution channel thing is an afterthought until suddenly, they have 1000 books in their garage. And they wonder why they haven't sold them all yet. So yeah, I'd love to talk to people in advance. If you're thinking of self publishing something, reach out to me reach out to any local bookstore, and have that little talk about the best way to make that work. Because sometimes it's really way too arcane. And to obtain self published books, and I mean, we carry like 1000 of them here. It's not that we have a prejudice against them. But you've got to think about that kind of thing from the from the early days in order to make it work.

So here's, here's a question. And specifically, well, before we get into the questions, why don't we talk a little bit you have you have a GoFundMe going now let's talk about the state of selling cookbooks in the COVID, 2020 Internet times?

Well, I mean, the I think the precise technical definition is that it that it sucks for for most of this year, lockdown came in March, but people had been pulling their, their horns in earlier than that in terms of visiting the store, and so forth. So the year was off to a bad start. And then suddenly, we couldn't be open anymore. And you know, for three months, we had no foot traffic. And we did. I mean, I have to give this credit to the people who have been our longtime customers, we've had a lot of great support through our website, on our website, right now represents maybe 15% of what's in the bookstore. So there was no way that it sales could keep up with, with what we needed to do to cover rent and so forth. I mean, it's a story that's familiar to, to anybody whose business was affected by the lockdown. And I'm sure I don't have to tell you about that. Yeah. All right. For us, it just met we were burning through through the cash we had on hand, and you know, dancing around and negotiating with vendors and with landlords, I managed to keep paying my people. Because it was important to me to have them to rely on and, you know, once we were running, they were a terrific resource to have here in the store. But they just stay was no cash. And usually the fall is a huge season for us. We have all these big off site events, we do the New York City wine and food festival, we do the star chef chef Congress, we did do the New York Times food festival. And none of those things are happening this year. So there was no chance to to get ourselves out of a hole. And our leases due for renewal.

What are you at now? And how much what

sort of hammered us at the same time? Clearly, we're not the only ones in the country facing that. But, you know, I was standing here looking around thinking, you know, could we, you know, shut this down and try to start over in a year. And there was no way that we could reassemble what we had here, there was no way that we get sort of replaced the kind of Nexus we become if we if we stopped. And so I said, Help. You know, I put the word out. And I'm blown away. I'm humbled by the way that that people have stepped up, stepped up and backed us it's been incredibly gratifying and heartwarming. And now I feel like I can't die because I have to do this forever for the people who are going back this

way you do. In fact, you do now why don't you tell people how to get to your GoFundMe, and we'll do it again at the end.

It's gofundme.com you can just type in kitchen arts and letters on the search bar, or it's gofundme.com A slash save kitchen arts and letters. Now we are, as of about an hour ago, we were at about $89,000, we initially set a goal of 75. And we hit it in two and a half days, which meant I was crying, I raised it, because if we can put some extra stability under the store, if we can have a little more room to maneuver, because God knows what, you know, next year, and the year after that are gonna look like, then it's all for the better. I mean, one thing I know I'm going to do is pour money into improving and vastly upgrading the website, which was already the plan for this year, and, you know, boom, that became impossible. So we are out of the deepest pit, and we're now sort of scrambling at the sides of it.

Yeah. Now, how, like, I'm sure you think about this a lot. I mean, obviously, you don't actually know what it's like to go to your store as a customer. I mean, some of the people who work for you do I'm you know, that I know. But I mean, like to go as a customer, right? I mean, how can how can how can you somehow give some of that experience of what it's like to be able to go ask questions in the store, to people who can't visit the store? Like that's kind of this post COVID? are, you know, do you see this as is it possible that this becomes an opportunity, because what you guys have is so much more than a place where someone hands you money, and you hand them a book, you know?

Well, I mean, that's, I mean, that's a really fair question. I mean, it's one of the things that I'm trying to figure out for, for the website, because, you know, you come in here and ask us a question. And sometimes, you know, it'll be a really easy question, there's one obvious answer for it. But in other times, there isn't like a dead on approach to the, to the subject. But there are all these tangential books that that together can help you get there. And so you know, you can come in and, and suddenly, one of us is running all over the store, pulling books with fiber, different five or six different sections, and saying, oh, but look at this chapter and check out this. You know, and maybe we don't always even know exactly where to look for it first. But we know where to start to searching. And finding a way to do that on the web is is is the great challenge.

Great. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I got one i 130. And, well, let me let me give you let me give you guys let me give the listeners who have never maybe been to the store an example, like this. So kitchen Arts and Letters, maybe this is a more succinct way of putting it, they are like research librarians of cooking, right. So you know, in the way that you could go to in the way that you could go to the slasher library at Radcliffe, and, you know, kind of go to their library and who knows a lot like kitchen Arts and Letters is like a reference, like reference librarians for cookbooks that where you can actually then buy the book and take it out and own it, right. And I remember when I was writing for food arts, this is probably like, oh, five or something. Oh, six. Jose Andres. Oh, six, somewhere around there. Oh, seven, Jose Andres, who recently opened Cafe Atlantico. In, in DC, and, and Daniel blued, was opening a restaurant in Vegas, and planches were the hot new thing. And Michael Badbury. You know, my mentor, who was the founder, one of the founders of food arts, was like you're gonna write about planches. There was no information on planches. Right? There was not a lot on websites about planches. So you go to kitchen arts and letters, and you're like, who's done Spain, right, who talks about planches. And then they run around the store, as Matt said, looking for like all possible references to that, or when I was tasked to write about charcuterie. And there wasn't a lot is like picking and play. And in fact, Matt was going to do as the classics in the field today. So we'll get to that in a minute cooking by hand which until like the technical stuff came out along with Django Erickson's book was like the place where you could like read at least a chapter by a great author on charcuterie. So, whenever I had something to research, when I was writing an article, I would go to them first and it's a lot better than you know, Wikipedia, in terms of like getting information because as I say, you know, a kitchen arts and letters they often they can't on everything, but they often have the backstory on how a particular book got written or why a particular book got written or you know, where the where the author was at that time, which is helpful for a researcher or an author, or even just someone who was interested, you know? I mean,

that's a that's a big part of the pleasure for us is, is sharing that background. You know, we we don't know everything about every book, obviously. But there are books here that we've, you know, we've known since they were an idea in somebody's head, and we've seen them get written and published and you know, and win awards and prizes. And we love talking to people about that.

Yeah. So anyway, why don't we like, John, should we do a? Should we do a question? Should we get oh, I have a question for you actually came in on Twitter. Matt. Let me see. You probably you can tell me whether you hate this kind of question or don't. This is from Pavlov of Laski wrote in what is the best cooking book of 2020. So far?

I hate questions like that. I hate almost any question that involves the word best. Because what's best for me may not be best customer for you, Dave or for somebody else. So our conversations, that experiences who were answering the question for. So it's just

Well, let me ask you this, what is an overlooked what is an overlooked cookbook in 2020, that people need to go Go search out?

Oh, now I'm on the spot. Some really fun and offbeat books that I was excited to see. There's a little book. And I'm gonna get the title wrong because I don't have it right in front of me. And it's it's long, but it's the proceedings of the first annual gathering of common logic. pomological explores people who find wild apple varieties, along roadsides and in the back of parking lots. Because when apples germinate from seed, each apple is genetically distinct. And so the trees that come up are nothing like their parents. And so these varieties that are found in the wild, can be something amazingly new and different from anything that they might be related to, when there are people who find them and share them and start cultivating them and bringing them to mark it. And they gathered together up in Massachusetts last year, and this little collection showcases it's about 66 I think out of 120 or so that were on display. So that would be high up on my list of of, of interesting things. Caught I can't even remember what year is what year for rolling up your sleeves and, and working. There was a book that came out early in the year called Carpathia on the food of Romania. This is a part of the world that gets like no respect from big mainstream publishing houses. This one came along and I think gives an interesting tour and then finally, a newly published book called parvana. On Afghan food. And again, I don't have the the book in front of me so I don't have the author's name to hand. Her last name is a UB ay UBI. She's an Australian whose family fled Afghanistan in the early 80s. And it is a gorgeously historical book. I mean, it's also beautifully photographed, but the Afghan culture in that book is is a revelation for I think, for anybody who didn't grew up in Afghanistan.

Alright, well, what's the name of that marijuana,

PA, R W A and A

and I'm also going to check out that Romanian book because my wife's business partner is like Romanian Romanian, like from Romania she chesco era like hardcore

tough, tough times there for a long time. But, but the food is really interesting. And it's this crossroads location with lots of different influences.

Cool, all right. Awesome. Now you do we want to do a normal question or do we want to go straight to classics in the field guys? What do you guys

feel because you haven't done it in a long time.

Alright, alright, now before we get into it, I have a question about a cookbook see this now this is what this is what I'm saying now people I have not pre determined this at all while I was doing research before I fried my computer this morning. A cookbook came through my my internet browser. And I have a question about it. And we have not I have not asked Matt whether he knows anything about it. So this is it is not a test because but I'm just gonna see. Are you familiar with the haka cookbook that came out like seven eight years ago?

Yeah, University of California Press. I think

Dang. See, see what I'm talking about people and here's why. I'm interested. So the people that make the sizzle which is our little handheld, you know, the thing it turns a torch, I gotta

talk about

Amazon, at some point, intimate, intimate, intimate. Like, this series all is manufactured by a haka family that the people who run the factory are haka, which is, like a very specific kind of group inside of China, right. It's its own thing, and they have their own cuisine. And whenever we go to China, or often want to go to China, will go to a haka will go to a haka restaurant will have haka food. So. So I was interested, is the cookbook any good? Like, is that is that A should read a, you know, what do you what do you think there? I heard it doesn't have a lot of illustrations, but I don't

know, I don't think it has any illustrations. If there are, there's some line drawings. I mean, I haven't opened one and maybe a year or so I think it's really strong. I mean, it's a really culturally interesting story about how this group of people has basically sort of been forced to migrate repeatedly within China, they've managed to maintain a distinct culinary and cultural identity. The food is a is a tremendous linking for us. It's related, but it doesn't seem like exactly like any other kinds of Chinese cuisine. I haven't cooked from it. That's true of most of the books in the store. But we have really good, strong feedback from our customers. And so I have a lot of faith in

si, si, to me, people like that is the kind of information how you're going to get that on the internet, you're going to listen to like, you're going to listen to like, like Joey No, nothing on their on their Amazon review. We'll get to that. We'll get to that later.

By the way, talk about it first, because that's our business. Just no, no,

I was gonna talk about Amazon reviews for books. What do you what do you want me to say about Amazon, the corporation?

What happened on Friday? Because I've gotten emails from people asking how that's going, how our relationship with Amazon is going because a lot of people follow us talking about it on the show.

Our relationship with Amazon. Is that look, I've said this before, I'll say it again, Amazon. Amazon is good at if you need to return something to Amazon like they're, they're great for that, right? Like as a customer like they're good as a vendor. It is a frigging nightmare is a frigging nightmare. So here's what happens. Amazon, right, Amazon is one of the larger importers of things because they do a lot of like direct importing, they import it. So this that's how the Sears all works people. So we have it manufactured in China, right? And then it gets picked up in China by Amazon, and then shipped on an Amazon contracted boat to the United States and then distributed to an Amazon warehouse. Amazon owns it as soon as it leaves as in China. The possession goes from Booker index to Amazon, right? Okay. Seems pretty clear. Right? Now, listen, question. When does Amazon check to make sure that we've given them the sizzles and he guesses and he guesses matter, Matt? guessed. How about in America? Oh, oh, that's interesting. Where in America?

Like, I didn't order the port, but are you telling me it's like at some sort of like, receiving place past the port bing bing, bing bing

bing. Now, we hand Amazon pallets. I hate to get too into the weeds. Here's how this works, right? It's every Sears all in a box, every Sears all box with a label. Here this is even funnier. over top of that label is another label with a different barcode. Because Amazon will have it no other way you need to have two barcodes, one with the item number that's the manufacturer barcode. And then you must have that and then you must put another label over it with a second barcode that completely obscures the first and if you can't do that, then they won't do business and it takes too long to explain to you why. But that's just the truth. So every one of those individual steers all boxes is in a box that contains nine by nine by contains 27 Sorry, names three by three by three cereals. It's 27 to a box. Right, right. Okay, so you got 27 Sears hauls in a box. That box has on it several barcodes and labels. There are how many how many of those on a pallet size it's it's I actually got the real three by three by five. It's it's 18. Right? Isn't it enough but anyways matter. So it's we'll say it's 18 of those on a pallet and it's wrapped and then that's what gets handed off. Now. There is no possible way because of the cube shapes everything is in for us. Like, send three less than we said, It just can't work. You know what I mean? It just, there's no way the factory wouldn't know how to send three or four less, right? Anyway. So we say to Amazon, Hey, okay, Listen, why don't you check, when we hand you the stuff to make sure we've handed you all this stuff. So you can agree in China, and China gets on your boat before he gets on your boat. Because what's happening is, is that someone not even at the port, but like at their warehouse is scanning the stuff in unit by unit. And saying that we're shorting them random numbers of units. It's usually a whole box of 27, but like random, right? And so we're like, we handed the bill of lading. And they're like, which doesn't work for us? And they're like, well, we don't look at the bill of lading. That's not we look at how many we have in the warehouse and like, but, but but but but but but you own them from the minute you took them in China, you put them on a boat for a month, they're saying

something's happening in the warehouse, and we're like, okay, but that's your

warehouse, your warehouse. I'm like, in the Stasi, and I were like, basically got

on a call with their representative from them. And then Dave, before the call says, Are we both going patchy? Or?

Yeah, so we both went patchy on a I like, I was like, listen,

oh, my God. And then Dave, say what Dave said he's gonna put cigarettes out and his kids.

I was like, No, listen, listen, here's what happened. Like, the guy that we're dealing with is like, Listen, this isn't my rules. I'm like, I'm like Amazon. I was like, first of all, I was like, in any basic drug deal, right? Your test the drugs. And if the person is safe in the suitcase, you open the suitcase, and the person says counted. And then if you don't count it, it's on you. It's on you. You keep counting when the deal happens, right? It's like, it's Amazon is doing this. They're going to a grocery store. They're buying a whole bunch of groceries, they're putting it into their into their Outback, and they're leaving the hatch open. And then they're driving over a dirt road for 55 miles. And then when they get there, they're like, have my groceries fell out. I'm not paying you. Who the hell does this. Your check when you do the deal? Yeah. Unbelievable. So then, so Amazon? Um, can I guarantee you that Amazon is making money hand over fist by doing this to people? And they're just like, well, it's the price of doing business. Like they're going to lose 26 boxes. And we can't force Amazon because they're the richest company in the world. We can't force them to count the stuff when they take it from us. So we'll just have to pretend that we lost it. We'll have to pretend it's us. We'll have to get gas lit by Amazon because what else are we going to do about it? Right? And so I was I said to our guys and and said as I was like, listen, I was like the what you're doing is literally making a difference in whether or not I get to send my kid to a school or not like this is like, I was like, this is the Stasi and I this is our whole business. I was like this isn't like he's like, but we only shorted you 13 grand on this one order. I'm like, you only shorted me 13 grand. The other way. He said that there is an order, okay, and not to get too into nuts and bolts. We have an order $140,000 They owe us and they come back and they're like, how about we give you 40 Were like, what, like, let's

make a deal. It's crazy. Yeah, yeah.

This reminds me of the time I was having a horrible surgery and I won't even I won't get into it. But I was in let's just say a compromised position and unfortunately not knocked out. So is the most invasive personal space invasion, like harsh Oh, Pierre Pasolini movie kind of thing you could possibly imagine. And while they were doing this procedure, to me, this is years ago, the doctor talked about nothing else. But how the insurance company was basically doing the same thing to him basically saying they're gonna pay him like 30 cents on the dollar for what he was owed. And I had all kinds of cameras and needles and all kinds of bad places every orifice. It was like it was like a horror porn for it was the worst. Anyway, that's what it's like it because they're like, how about we give you 40 And then like, the only 13 grand was shaft to you. I was like, dude, so I said to him, I was like, buddy, I was like, may you someday be rich enough. May we all be rich enough that we can you know basically Put out cigarettes in the eyes of our enemies, children and not worry about it not have any repercussions. And he was like, Yes. I was like, I was like, because that's what Amazon is doing. Amazon's putting Yeah. But is that now what Amazon is doing to us? Yes. Yes. They're walking up early Booker. You need special education here. Cigarette boom in the eye. That's what they're doing. Now you also need eye surgery. Hope you have money. I'm gonna be showing you 13 Brandy. Yeah, anyway, So that's what we're doing with the Amazon right now. Enjoy. So, back to classics in the field, Matt, sorry about that slight digression. Yeah, well yeah.

Amazon horror stories

yeah

I'm Lisa help a food journalist and podcast host presenting behind the label with American Humane produced by Heritage radio network for Springer Mountain farms. This podcast series dives into what the American Humane Certified label really means. We're looking inside the farm certification process. Beginning with the moment a farmer expressed his interest in becoming American Humane Certified, all the way to a consumer seeing the seal on store shelves.

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So what do you what do you got for classics, let's go to something a little more fun,

a lot happier note, I would like to talk about a book called vegetables from MRM is a tea by Elizabeth Schneider. This is a giant, almost 800 page reference that came out in 2001. And it covers very broadly speaking about 113 different vegetables. Which is even more impressive when you consider that she doesn't really talk about things like potatoes and tomatoes, which are there are so many varieties of those that if you once you start talking about them and become entire books on their own. And this is a big sprawling reference book. It is written from the point of view of somebody who's or for the point of view of somebody who's making a living in some way off off these items. It talks about how to find them, what kind of growers to look for what a good one is like how it became cultivated and grown in the United States. It talks about everything from the qualities of the flesh and how it's typically cooked, to how well it keeps. And it covers, you know familiar things like broccoli and turnips, but also banana buds and something called horseradish tree. And something else it's known as New Zealand spinach or Tetra gonia. And the woman who wrote it, Elizabeth Schneider, had years before co authored a book called uncommon fruits and vegetables. And this was an outgrowth of that and even more in depth approach. It is full of information. There are recipes that she developed, there are notes on how chefs all over the country prepare these things. And I think for anybody who's, who's making a living in food, it's pretty goddamn useful.

Tell me ask you a question. Sure. Let's compare this with the uncommon vegetables for those of you that have for those that have one or like maybe, is the other one still? Is it worth getting both? Or are like are they different enough or

they are pretty different? I mean, uncommon fruits and vegetables came out. Middle 80s. So a lot of the things that are in that book had become a lot more common, and they aren't so surprising. And of course, it's also got fruits, which are not really a component of vegetables from amaranth, zucchini, vegetables from amaranth. Zucchini is also attempting to be more comprehensive. You can find familiar things in there. But it's also got those oddball things. Elizabeth Schneider made her living for a long time consulting with growers about what it was that chefs and restaurants were going to be interested in using. In the coming years farmers would come to her and say, Hey, what should we be planning what are people are talking about that they might want to be using more of? So she As she was uniquely plugged into a mixed of users and providers that almost nobody else at the time could replicate. She's pretty much retired now and not not writing. But at the time that this came out, it was, it was really essential. And I don't think anything has come close to replicating its importance.

We're not in speaking of like, at the time. So this book came out in 2001. Right? Yes, yeah. So I think a lot of one thing that I hate to see, especially with younger readers, right, is this. They can't, they can't properly judge a book for when it was written, and get the timeless nature of what was written, and also an understanding of what was commonly known when something was written. And therefore they can't get the full enjoyment out of a book that was written 19 years ago, just because they can't get the right mindset. Do you see that happening a lot? Or, you know, do you have anything to kind of say about that?

I think we do sometimes encounter that. I also think that, at least here in a conversation with people, we can usually make the case very strongly about why we might think an older book is still the more recent thing, I mean, this book established itself as a, as a pretty irreplaceable reference. And I, you know, the fundamental nature of, of bitter melon or, or ramps hasn't changed in 20 years. There are, you know, for some cultivated, widely cultivated vegetables, there are new varieties on the market. But the basics aren't going to change and a book like this, which represents the work of essentially a lifetime. I mean, there aren't that many people who are going to blow their lifetime on looking up and upsetting vegetables for you. Somebody

just said she ruined her life. You just said she blew her life. You know, I fair?

I think that authors sometimes do that for themselves. They pour themselves into a project. I mean, she's brilliant, smart, beautiful woman. But yeah, this was the sort of, she finished this. And she sort of gasped and sat down and, and has rested sense.

Now, so let me, this is why I hate Amazon reviews. So here's a one star review on that book, saying, My expectation for this book was to provide the basics on each vegetable, especially in relation to cooking with some more expanded or extensive info added. But for many vegetables, this was not included. All right, one star, that's one star, I thought it was going to be the basics of vegetables, but it wasn't one star jerks. Why can't these people just why can't that kind of person who writes that review? Just instead, stop sucking wind stopped being a waste of space? You know what I mean?

I I don't think Amazon is the only place where that happens. Yeah, I have seen some pretty astonishing reviews on Amazon for books that I think are are extraordinarily fun. It tells you a lot about as much about the reviewer as it does about the book.

Yeah. The other issue, like I say about kind of what I was getting out with the kind of newness, wanting new stuff is like, let's say someone had written a book on rum 10 years ago, right? They could have spent their entire life on on rum. And it still wouldn't really have a section on clearance. Right? You know, from Haiti, like the cane stuff from Haiti. So then like someone who's just getting into it and getting all the information like, well, it can't be good, because it doesn't even include clearance. You know what I mean? Like that kind of attitude? I think people need to mentally, mentally kind of erase. Do you know what I mean? Because it's just, I think it's unhelpful. And I worry about this, when I'm writing to like, How can I write I know that some of the information that I'm giving now is going to be dated, I know that people are going to do a lot of work, and that things will be superseded, and other things, but like, a great writer, and I haven't read this, yet, I remember I was going to get a copy of this book, and I never did. But like a great writer, you read them, even though you might have some new information, or there might be more things available now that were available in 2000. Because there clearly is you know what I mean, but I think your life's going to be much richer, if you can, if you can, kind of because that the spirit of the writer doesn't really age. Do you know what I mean? Does that make sense?

It does. And I think the other thing that people sometimes have gotten out of the habit of doing is is because we're so used to going online and like entering a phrase and getting a quick answer to a question is is doing a critical reading that sort of says, You know what? What is this source? Where is it coming from? When did it occur? What are its limits going to be? What is it going to tell me that people have stopped paying attention to because often that is just as interesting as what is, is really sort of suddenly coming into the spotlight. And so you the certain, well, I can go on about this for a long time, perfection is an illusion. It's a lie. And if you search for it, and expect that you will always be disappointed. So what you do is you find something that's great, even if it's not perfect, and you celebrate what's great about it, and you don't get stuck on thinking that one place is all the answers. And you're happy with that ambiguity.

Alright, so that book was vegetables from amaranth, to zucchini, the essential reference anyway, 500 recipes and you can you have copies of that available kitchen arts and letters

we do. Absolutely. It is a big sprawling book and we love to talk about it.

What does that what does that was that gonna go for?

It is $70 It is like I said the work of a lifetime and on the price shows you