Hello, everybody, and welcome to a brand new series on heritage radio network called the culinary call sheet where we give a peek into the back kitchen of culinary media. I'm your host, April Jones,

and I'm your co host, Darren bresnitz. Part of why we started the show was to offer an unofficial mentorship for anyone who's interested in learning about all aspects of food and video, whether that's TV, social media online, or just something you want to do for fun.

Absolutely what was once niche or a little silly, as I'm sure you remember, Darren, when we started out, this man has now become such a massive playing field for so many creatives using food as the medium.

It's something that has driven us professionally and personally, for so many years. What excites me the most about this show is that we're going to sit down with some of the industry leaders to hear how they made it and what drew them into this industry.

With 20 years in the culinary production game ourselves. We're hoping we can give through these conversations an insider's view into personal stories from the field, as well as an in depth behind the scenes look into some of the most popular food programming. In today's evolving culinary media landscape.

We'll be covering everything from how to style your food, to how to license IP, to developing your own ideas, and some tips from the masters of how to host your own show.

Yeah, it's a little bit of conversation, how to and how do you do the things that you do in color media, which I'm so excited about? I love so many of the guests that are coming on this season. We have talent from Food Network from Vice media eater refinery 29,

we've met some of the best people in the world both in front of and behind the camera. And we're bringing them all together to share their stories, their delicious adventure and their unique journey into this crazy world.

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This episode is brought to you by a dozen cousins soulfully seasoned ready to eat beans Learn more at a dozen cousins.com.

This week on mountain three, we head into the second part of our mini series on global trade, where we talk about all things sweet from chocolate and sugarcane to the cultural festival that accompanied the growth of the date industry in the

US. They're using this romance and fantasy to say deeds are exotic and you should consider them. I

like to think of the food that we eat as archaeological artifacts in part because the history of humanity is in the stands in your produce market.

It's not like other foods we have very like personal feelings about chocolate. Tune into meat in three HR NS weekly food news roundup wherever you get your podcasts

Hello, and welcome to cookies. Cookies coming to you live on the heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly noon to like roughly one or so. I am as usual in the Lower East Side of Manhattan. Anastasia is in transit between California and New York. We have John in worry now you're in Connecticut now and Matt in Rhode Island just let you know where we are. But today is Oh, today is a different from normal. We're not going to do our normal. We're not gonna do our normal thing. Today is a tribute to Maria Gorna. Shelly, where are you going to Shelly was my, my editor. She's the reason that I wrote a book she forced me to write to write a book, she passed away this this last weekend. She was one of those people in the food world that if you weren't in the food world, especially food publishing world, you might not have known who she was, but she had an incredible outsized influence on on book publishing, in general and cookbook publishing in particular. And we have we have with us today, like some of the amazing people that she you know, helped, you know, help bring their authorship out into the world. And also her the other important thing she bought into the world I just saw came on is Alex Cornish Shelley, her daughter, famous chef, Telugu television personality Aleksei as a good to Good to see you. I hope. You know sorry for your loss.

Thank you. I mean, this is what my mother would like. People talking No better.

Well, so like I think we're going to keep it relatively freeform. So I'm going to say, later on in the show, we're going to have Rick Bayless coming on who's one of her longtime authors, long, longtime authors. But right now, we have also on the line with us. We have Harold McGee. We interesting Hello, Harold. There he's here. He's here somewhere. Yeah, he's

dropped briefly. He's coming back in.

So Maria actually signed him up for sign up the right before she moved publishing houses. She signed up for the second edition of on food and cooking. So if you enjoy the second edition of on food and cooking, you have Maria to thank for that. We also have Kenji Lopez all on the phone. Uh, how you doing? kanji?

I'm doing good. How are you?

I'm doing all right. So if you've read a cookbook in the past five years or so, you know, kanji is and Maria was also the person who stewarded his you know, book FoodLab. into into existence. So, you know, Harold will be back on in a second he'll dial back in or something, John, if you can help navigate and Harold back on to the conversation. That'd be, that'd be great. So, you know, I'll just I'll start by saying this. And you know, Alex, you might have something to say and Kenji as well. First of all, Nastasia you should chime in a lot here too, because she loved Anastasia likes, loves we love Anastasia. So for, you know, for those of you that never met Maria, like Maria had, let's just say a reputation. Would you say that's fair, guys?

Yeah, describe or Dave or Alex, describe your mom.

I mean, you know, I would go to parties in my 20s. When I first started cooking, I would go to like chefs, parties and stuff. And people would say, you know, I'm Jenny, nice to meet you. And I'd say I'm Alex corner selling and half the time people would bristle and say, Oh, I know your mother. And did the six times out of that. They would say she declined my book. So I started stop saying my last name at parties. Does that describe my mother in a roundabout fashion?

Yeah, I mean, I'm like, you know, I'm gonna say this. With all due respect. She was scary, right? She was the only person

she's the only person that ever scared Dave Arnold. And we've worked together for 13 Or who knows how many years? I've never seen him scared of anyone but her

the life out of me. She did she scared and you know what? And the thing is, is that, like, I know that she and I've seen her be incredibly harsh to people, right? But like, yeah, she was never harsh to me ever, ever. No. But she scared the daylights out of me. Like something about it is like, because I think like what was kind of best about, like, one of the professionally best things about her was that she was just such a judgment machine. She was always judging whether something was good or bad, or like whether it was and so like, you were always petrified because she was so fine tuned to everything that you were petrified that you were going to, like say something be like, Oh my god, I was wrong this whole time. You're an idiot. Get out. You know? She was Yeah, honestly. Like, so like, whenever I was with her, I was just completely nervous all the time. Right. It was it was a kind of a weird dynamic.

Meanwhile, she would say oh, that Dave. He saw what I saw and that Anastasia what a doll she is. But Dave didn't do his homework. And here we are waiting for Dave and I know he's brilliant, but I just don't know. And then she'd say but Kenji. On the other hand, Kenji has done all his homework, and is brilliant. So she thought you both were brilliant, more like a teacher and the ones that sat at the front of the class and turned in their homework. Those were the, you know, those were the people on the on the on the nice list, the Christmas card was,

you know, what I would say about her is that she was she was also just sort of, you know, fiercely loyal. Yes. And if you were, if you had done your homework, and you were on her good side that day, she she was your biggest advocate and your biggest supporter, and, you know, when she was editing my book, I had never felt supported in the way that I did with her not from not from any other teacher or any other boss. You know, with the exception maybe of Ed Levine, who's, who's also fiercely loyal, but you know, what it was, whether it was in her office or you know, or the frequent Three to four hour lunches we had, which, you know, were were scheduled for an hour and would go on for the entire afternoon. She you know, she was the same in or out of the office and you could always tell when someone was coming like when someone came into her office, they came in with that kinda deer in headlights look, or when a server came to our table or when the chef came out to talk to her it was she She definitely had a reputation. And it was one that you didn't even have to know her to get to see it. And you know, she she, she she wore her emotions on your sleeve. And you could tell the first time you met her, you could tell that whatever she was going to say to you right now is going to be something honest. She didn't she never beat around the bush about anything. And, and I you know, I admired that because I, you know, I'm the kind of person who needs someone to tell me when you know, something I did sucks or, or when something I did is good. Because yeah, I mean, I think that's how that's how you that's how you know she, she wasn't accepting of anything other than perfection. And I actually really admire her about that.

Yeah, what restaurant did she take you to? Candy was Did she always use one and take you she always? Lino?

Yeah, it was most frequently Wow, actually. Yeah. Yeah, she loved that place. And I, and every single time we went, there wasn't a single time when we didn't sit and then have to be moved to a different table.

somewhere else?

Yes. Oh, my God, Kenji. I can't believe you've managed to, I was wondering what little sort of nuances would come out, I kid you not when I say my mother and father and I would go out and she'd say, I want to sit over there. I don't like our table. And we would move one time, we moved three times until my mother felt that the light was hitting our table in the right way. And also, people say to me, you know, like, how did you become a chop? Judge? And how did you become a judge on TV? And, um, you know, I say, Well, I was in training for it my whole life by accident. My mother collected Gourmet magazine, every, every single issue and put them in bound, you know, in binders. So my mother has every issue of Gourmet magazine from like, 1960, whatever, until 1990, or whatever it was. And she would make a pie. And she would say, is this as good as the 1974? October one? Or do we like this? As much as the 1981? November one and why? And that was sort of what we, and then you had to have an answer. You had to, you know, and I was like, Jesus, I don't know, I'm stressed out. This is pie. It's just a pumpkin pie. And my father would say, Well, I you know, the crust is, my mother would say, you know, the feeling is just so I think when she started in on cookbooks, I knew it was really something when she would take the whole manuscript and just cook it. Wow. And she would, and we did the same thing. And so every author was on trial at my childhood home, you know, for, you know, like, oh, there's so and so, you know, none of his recipes work. And that's how I came to know people for life. You know, oh, he's late on his manuscript. I can't say hello to him.

She always said hello to me, and I was always late. Yeah. You ever notice how Alex, if you didn't have a set? What she considered a satisfactory answer? She wouldn't say anything. She just keep staring at you until you had a satisfactory answer.

Oh, yeah. By the way, I might describe all of you as an irreverent band of marauders in your own right. So I just want to say, it's not like my mother picked the straight and narrow types to deal with. I think she, she, she knew I mean, the two of you in particular. She knew about you before she worked with you. And she talked about you. And I used to say to her, I mean, Kenji, really, my mother before I could say anything to her about kanji. She was already talking to me. But you Dave, honestly, I said to her, you know, Dave Arnold, this guy. You know, he's so he's such a nerd in the most glorious way. He loves to know the why the mechanics why things work, why they don't he likes a clear answer. He will diligently work until he finds one. You know, I said to my mother, he's so up your alley, just the way he does his work. And his, what's the word I'm looking for? I guess, like, really integrity, at all cost? And that's what she found. And look at your books. I mean, look at how great the books are. It's not just because of my mom, but don't you think my mom just kind of like, gives great flowers like the right water and sunlight?

I can tell you I mean, you know my book I mean, I wouldn't, I would definitely not have the career I have today. If it wasn't for your mom, you know what, when I went when your mom called me, I had already talked to a dozen other publishers, including including my former employers at Cook's Illustrated who, you know, who also do science and stuff. And virtually all of them had had, you know, told me that they wanted a shorter book, or they wanted it to be, you know, they, you know, we a very different book, from what from what, what it ended up being with your mother. And I remember when your mother called me, I was I was living in a in a one bedroom apartment in Brooklyn, with no windows, I went out onto onto the balcony to take the call in my in my underwear in the winter. Because because, you know, because I was inside and my wife was working inside and, and your mother the reason I mean, the reason I went with Norton is because is because your mother knew what she was talking about, is you because your mother clearly had read some of my work. And I knew, like, you know, I want someone who sort of understands what it is I'm trying to do. And she did. And I got that in our in our first 20 minute phone call. I got that she got that. And then, to her credit, you know, when I was writing my book, and originally it was supposed to be five or 600 pages, and I you know, I turned in 800 She was like, This is good. Can you give me? Can you give me 600 more pages? I'm like, sure. All right. You know, and so, without her it would have been a very different book, my career would have been very different. And, you know, I never felt more supported than when I was then when I was working with her. And you know, and be even be even before I met her, of course, I would not have been able to do what I what I do now, had it not been for, you know, for Harold's book, and for the new edition of Joy of Cooking and you know, all the all these works that sort of paved the way for and, you know, Einstein to what Einstein told us cook I think that was firstly, well. You know, all these books that on science, food science and technique that were sort of aimed at home cooks things that you know, that that my my work is very much based on. Without your mother, I can very safely say that, that I would not be doing what I do right now. Which you know, so I owe her a ton beyond beyond just my immediate working with her as my editor.

She also did blockbuster books that weren't in that vein. You know, like she did, she was fuchsite Dunlops. American editor. Oh, yeah. Rogers. Lindy cafe. Yeah, the Zuni Cafe cookbook, huge, huge book

that that manuscript sat around the apartment for years, I that Zuni Cafe book, and the first manuscript was in the bathroom, like think about like, the what I bring to the table is like, that was the toilet reading in my bathroom was the Zuni Cafe manuscript. And so of course, I was reading it, you know? And my mother said, What do you think? And I said, I just don't see it, you know, and I generally was okay. But I was like, I don't see this. And, and she said, Just wait. And I remember that. And then the book, then other versions of it started appearing. And I was reading and reading and I said, you really teasing out a story here that I didn't see initially? And she said, yeah, she said, we're getting there. And then she just brought home the book. And she was so nervous, because I think, you know, she really worked. Let me tell you, there was some books you worked harder on, even harder on than others. And that was a book, we ate a lot. We ate most of that cookbook, my father and I, but she was just really wanted the story to come out. And it just did, I guess, in a very lasting way. Sometimes I say to, you know, chefs, you know, how do we hit the refresh button, and I say, sometimes, you've got to go back to an old book to refresh. I said, just go read the Zuni a little bit gozone out on the Emma 20 page, bread, you know, salad recipes, like five ingredients and it's like a 20 page recipe, you know, the the irreverence and indulgence of thinking there was that much to say and going with that. You know, my mother didn't seem to reference anybody around her there was my mother was not one for social comparison. If you know what I mean. She would wear a Ferragamo scarf with a product purse and New Balance sneakers and a lens and T shirt. She just had no she didn't care how you combine things she just wanted what was good. And my mother was

wear comfortable shoes. Also I remember that.

Yeah, I mean, it wasn't good. That's just it. My mother. My mother just called me from the hospital, and not a week ago, and she said her I'm looking at mark for Jones restaurant. Is he good? And I just said how do I sum up someone like whether they're good or not, but that's how my mother Oh, he's good or she's good or that croissant I took a bus train and a boat to was worth going for. That's the other thing about my mother would go to Guadeloupe to taste one good olive. You know, it didn't matter what she had to do. And I think you were all like, her favorite olives.

That's it. She remember? She would how much she hated people whose recipes didn't work? Oh.

Yeah. I mean, people out there the stories if I could tell you half she was also could be, let's say, real rough on people that she had done. And if I could tell you guys the stories, oh, my God, oh, my god, the things she would say. were amazing. Amazing. You know,

you didn't do your homework, man. You were out of the circle of trust. And here's why it was so strange is that I was always sort of surprised anybody wanted her approval? You know, because it was so hard to get. But I think what was it you think? I think she, I think she, I think she knew how to translate what you wanted to say, or help you find your voice and sort of connect the dots. Or, you know, I always feel like my mom would, you know, if it were a book or a closet, you know, she would show up with the antique closet and the clothes and the rack and the hangers and just say you start by hanging them on and I'm gonna rehang them. And we're gonna argue, and then we're gonna rehang them again. And then we'll see what we have. We what happened to your books with my mother? What happened when you were done? Well, my

book got it went through several iterations, you know, for initially it was going to be she's like, Kenji, we have to do this in two volumes. And then I remember I remember we went in and had a long three hour lunch, talking about how the book was going to be in two volumes, how are we going to divide it? And then a week later, she was like, Kenji, the two volume idea is stupid. That's a bad idea. We're going to we're going to make it into one volume. You know, it was that kind of thing where, whatever her idea at the moment was, she was, she was all in on it, you know, but she could also change your mind. But you know, but the thing about working with your mom was that just given her track record, you know, she, I think right before mine, while we were working on mine, she Molly Stevens second book might have come out all about all about roasting, and the Oh, yeah. And grande Cosina had had just come out. And it's like, all these great, great books. And, and she, you know, she doesn't have a bad book in her in her in her backlog, you know, so it's like, whatever you knew that if she was, if she was if she said what you're doing is good. And if she said the idea, you know what, how it's turning out is good, then you knew that it was good. Even you know, because I had never published a book in my life. And so I kind of had to go, I had to trust her, you know, and I did, and I'm very glad I did. But, you know, like, like you said, she was a she was a great judge of what's good and what's not. And so she told you something he was you were doing was good than that. You know, that's why you sought out that approval, because you knew that she could tell. So yeah, my experience was working with her was that every meeting was passionate, every meeting was full of this is this is terrible. This is great. But what you knew that whatever we're going to land on at the end was going to be great.

And she was also it was everything to write with me. She was like, what about what about this form factor? What about she just hand me a bunch of books? And like paper stocks? She'll be always be thinking about, like, what's the paper stock gonna look like? What's the book gonna look? Like? What's the physical form factor? How's it going to feel like where's like, how is someone going to use it, she was just like, tuned into all of the, like, book as object thing as well, which, of course, you know, someone my age, I grew up on book as object because I am a lover of books, as you know what I mean.

But also a book you're going to use that you're going to open and reference and thumb through and leave on the counter open to a certain page. She was really big on the size and the shape of the book. And I won't even tell you what a book jacket experience was like, particularly when I was like, you know, 789 10 and in my early teens, my mother would bring home, 14 jackets and hang them all up, and we would sit in the kitchen, my mother, father and I and look at the mom. My mother would say, What do you think and, you know, we would just stare at book jackets. I mean, I don't know what everybody else was doing at the dinner table. But what I was looking at At any number of book jackets, I remember that by the time the Zuni Cafe came out, I had seen 17 iterations of that jacket it was it was actually jarring when I saw the book in the store, because I just thought, oh, you know, that's what I've been staring at for five years at home and hear other people know about this, right? Oh, I have she agonized over how it felt and how it looked. And it's surprisingly, that's the thing kind of about my mother's the vanity of the book, you know, even though you would certainly not accuse my mother of being a vain person. She knew the importance of vanity for the book as object as you say.

No, I mean, I think it's, I wish more people still thought about that. There's so many books look so nasty nowadays. You know what I mean? Like, they're just nasty. Yeah. Because nobody cares about them anymore. You know what I mean? So it's, uh, I don't know. So uh, Harold SE is back on how did she convince did she have to convince you to do that? The the second, the second version where like, like, I know that she signed you on to do the second version. And then she moved the publishing house it But how'd that go?

Yeah, it's one of the great regrets of my life that I I was her author, and I never got to work with her. Right? Yeah, timing just didn't work out. So yeah, I was. It was 1994 When I first met her, and it was at a dinner with a bunch of people after an IACP meeting. And I didn't know her. She didn't know me. But by the end of the dinner, we realize that I was at Scrivener, she was at Simon and Schuster. She was in charge of Scrivener food books. And so I was hers. And we had been trying for, I would say, a year to convince Simon and Schuster to do a revision of on food and cooking. And basically getting nowhere. And maybe two, three days after I got back from that ice trip, and in New York, I got a phone call from my agent who said, So Maria has been in touch, we've got a contract. It just happened like that. And then it took me 10 years to write that book. And that was just too long. By the time I was halfway done. She had moved down to Norton. So I never got the chance to work with her. But I had many opportunities when our whenever I was in New York, and in that time, and afterwards, actually, we would get together for lunch or dinner and talk about all kinds of things. And you're mentioning, Judy Rogers, his book reminded me of something that I actually forgotten about until just now, when Judy was writing her book, Maria came out to work with her in Berkeley, San Francisco. And Judy wanted to ask me some technical questions. And so Maria said, why don't we all get together for dinner? So we all got to dinner, got together for dinner at shape and ease. And I'm thinking, you know, this is this is a great gig answering a few questions and getting to eat here. We're, we're in the middle of dinner. And Maria looks over my shoulder, says excuse me, gets up from the table, walks over to another table and says, very loudly, I love you. And it turned out to be Mark Morris, the dancer who was in town for a performance with at the Berklee public events program. And so they had this wonderful conversation. Oh, Judy, and I were kind of looking at each other and and wishing that we were as bold as she was. Just get up when she saw what someone she loved. And, and love that. So yeah, she was she was irrepressible.

That's such a great word. Yes. irrepressible. At any moment, by the way, she called me how. Yeah, right. So she I said my I said, I'm making this squash soup every day at the restaurant and sometimes when I put it in the fridge, it bubbles and it Frost's and it's almost fermenting and I don't know why. And my mother said, Well, Joe, Ask how just call him and I said, Who's how? She said how McGee. And I said, Mom, I'm not going to call Harold McGee and say, Hey, buddy, I've got some fermenting soup. And I don't know why. I think he's got bigger fish to fry. And she said, Oh, for God's sake, just call him. I'm sure he's there. And I did write you a note. And you answered me that deed the squash was fermenting. I think we talked about dairy, interacting with the squash when it sits. But that was just it. I mean, if my mother wanted to ask Barack Obama questions, she just pick up the phone. She, in the nursing home, I had I put her in a nursing home for a few months, because she couldn't really couldn't. She needed that level of care. And I would she, I'd call her and she'd say, well, they just delivered my lunch. And I'd said, okay, you know, and I would send her food and because I knew how you know, and she'd say, I called down to the cafeteria, and I told Jay that I thought his soup was pretty good today, you know, the seasoning was really on my thought. And I'm thinking to myself, like, my mother is still crossing the remit shape and ease in her way, like, wherever she is, she's evaluating and admiring

constant evaluation. I'll tell you a story that she said about Kenji, here's the kind of thing she would do. So like Kenji, and I were writing our books, we're writing our books roughly at the same time, write mine much shorter. So like, even though it took me infinity for how long it should have taken to write it, you know, plus the years to start writing it, which Maria was very patient anyway. So like, we're actually physically writing at the same time. And you go into her office, and by the way, back me up, back me up folks like her office. I don't know if she actually had furniture because it was constructed of books. You know what I mean? Yes, you walk in, and she's like, just books, books, books, she would like constantly throw books off. So every time you had a meeting, you would end up with five books. And yet somehow, like her office was still 100% of the time. So I walk in, and her her assistant for most of the time I was there, it was a guy named Michel Coles. Right. So like, you go across, and then the assistants office, it was much neater, it had a, like a bookshelf slash filing thing. And on it were stacks of printed manuscript stuff. And Kenji had, like, you know, like a giant section of stacks of paper that he had already submitted via manuscript to, to Maria. So like, I would go in and see Kennedy's growing stack of paper, and be very jealous. And she was trying to play us off just to see who was going to get their manuscript on first. So she was like, poke fun at each of us. But I remember, like, early on in the process, because she was like, No, like I was saying very, very keyed into things like photos, right. And if I have time, I'll tell you another photo story later. So she's one day I don't know where she is, looks at me in her office. And like I said, like, whenever I'm with her, my knees are shaking, I'm petrified that she's going to all of a sudden excoriate me which she's never done. And she goes, you know, Kenji wants to take all of his own photos. And then just gives me this look, this gives me this look, like her eyes open up, like three times wider than normal, and her eyes open wide, which you want him to folks? And like, I was just like,

um, um,

and then, like, maybe like, three minutes as you were there, you remember this? Yeah. I was like, Oh, my God. But like, you don't look, she let him do it. And it ended up being the right thing to do. Because, you know, Kenji, there's no way you could have written that book with a photographer.

No. Especially especially big because I mean, I didn't really have the space for it. And, or Yeah, and like I said, I wrote a lot of my book in my underwear. I like to from like, midnight to 4am. So

doing the tube and book there.

Yeah, I'm not great at working with other people in general.

Yeah, that's true. I have to and it sucks, believe me. The guy just not just used the Yeah. So I'll tell you a quick story about photography. So I also, like find it difficult to work with people that I don't already know. intimately, you know what I mean? So I wanted to use my and you know, since she's gone now, I can safely say this, I wanted to use my brother in law who's a professional photographer Travis Huggett to shoot my book because among other things, like he knows me and he knows my level of disorganization my level of crazy right and also he's quick and doesn't mind working with whatever lights are around he's not gonna like you know, print it all up. and all this other stuff. So I knew I wanted to work with him. And I was like what we, you know, I floated the idea of working with my brother in law to Maria. And she was like, no. You may never work with your family on a book. And I was like, okay. Okay, so what I did was, hey, we got Rick Bayless on Hey, Rick, how you doing? Hi, I'm

doing great. How are you?

I'm doing well do I was a fish. So what I did was folks, is I said, Okay, this is this is the closest I got to lying to Maria. So you just you guys decide whether this is. So I I just got Travis to shoot a bunch of photos of cocktails because we'd already decided I was gonna do a cocktail book on she didn't want me to write a cocktail book, by the way at first. She's like, people don't read cocktail books. Don't write a cocktail book, write a book people read. She's writing right and right and wrong. She ended up bending. But anyway, whatever. So I had Travis shoot a bunch of stuff. And I just gave her the the pictures. And she was like, yeah, we can use this guy. And so then I had to maintain this fiction the entire time. I never said he's not my brother in law. I said, What do you think of this guy? And and so we ended up using my brother in law I'll never forget. We were in her office for one of these marathon photo sessions where she was going through the photos and how they matched up with chapters. And Travis and I were there at Norton c&c Did one of these like conference tables. And she turns to me terrified, terrified every day, especially when we were together terrified. She turns to me. She goes, where are you going? For Thanksgiving this year? Oh, by the way, Maria always went to Thanksgiving. John's which restaurant out some All right. Yo, yeah. Yeah. That was for Thanksgiving. That was her Thanksgiving tradition. Yeah. Which, by the way, good call. Probably

right. Oh, fantastic.

Yeah. Nice room. It's a nice room if you've never been to JGS main room. Nice room anyway. So she's like, Hey, Dave, where are you going to Thanksgiving? She doesn't talk like that. You know what I mean? Hey, Dave, where are you going to Thanksgivings? Yeah, I'm gonna go. I'm going to Connecticut. And then she turns to travel. Oh, what about you travel? Are you going for Thanksgiving? And he goes, I'm also going to Connecticut. And that was the closest and we're both like, don't take don't take, don't take don't take and she didn't dig. And she ended up like really liking Travis's work. And I think understanding that, you know, the way he can interact with me, like made the book better. So I don't know whether she secretly knew somewhere deep inside that something was up, but that's the closest I ever got to lying to Maria.

Well, they've she didn't know but now she does. There will be repercussions.

Yeah, I feel good. coming clean. The Stasi knew so I made the Stasi maintain a lot. It's never cool. Never cool making somebody else maintain your life for you. But this isn't isn't a lie or digest. Like is it a hard omission?

You lie a lie. As as the only remaining Gorna Shelly gene pool, I'm gonna say you've lied. You shall be judged.

Well, I knew she would judge. That's what I like I had to like I had to maintain it had to maintain.

You should know that my mother would call me and only reference people as to how their book sales were. You know, she'd be like, Well, Joe called me 60,000 imprint right now. That's how she would identify people. Everybody was how many copies were in print. And she was always so excited about how well your book did in a category that she didn't. She didn't have faith in honestly,

she did not have faith in the category. And the only reason it ended up being that was she. I was super late and even starting to write a book. And she hauled me into the Norton offices, and had me like do like a song and dance for the North Norton, friggin big wigs. And I made them a bunch of cocktails. And she's like, Well, David turns out that the, you know, the management here at Norton are a bunch of booze hounds. So they want you to write the cocktail book whether or not it sells. I was like, Okay,

I remember that. I literally remember that. And I remember her saying she was surprised that they were on board. And that she was very she had every faith in you. But that she didn't believe in the trend. And I think she was always so astounded by how well the book did and is still doing

well for us. She like she wanted me to write a book that look a lot like look like Kenji. You're like the home run hitter. Right? So it's like, you know, she knew that that book was going to be a monster. You know what I mean? And so, you know, she was really good at that. She was good at seeing like, a need that didn't quite exist yet and then like hitting that you know what I mean?

That one that one was uh, oh, yeah.

So, one quick story before we plan on charcuterie just So, oh, Jaya Jim Lahey, another one. Hey, Jim, how you doing best? Two quick things I say so Jim Lee he's Sullivan Sullivan street bread. That book, right. So more bread books, the first No need bread book, then like any other bread book ever. Right, Jim?

I don't know if that's true. I would love to think that that's true, but I think Well, thank you. I wish that were true. But because because if it weren't true, I guess I would be I would be in a very great a nice place right now. But, you know, yeah, definitely. You know, I mean, I know, I kind of I'm a little late to the conversation. And I apologize. But yeah, Maria was, you know, an amazing editor. And, you know, as you know, Dave, she was, is quite was quite a character. That's how you, Jim. And yeah, you know, we had we had many arguments, but they always ended up. You know, we always ended up in agreement. In the end,

this conversation has become like a pirate ship. Yeah. This is a ship of pirates.

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I wanted to get all these people on just because we're so like some of us like are in similar veins. But we're also so different. I wanted to show some of the breadth of what she kind of was involved with.

Well, I will say knowing that Rick is here. Rick, how many books did my mother do with you? Am I wrong? Saying it's more than 20?

No, oh, it's way, way less than 28? Oh, we did eight, eight books together? Wow. Yeah. It was amazing. Because she was the first and only editor that I had. We did this one other little book that I did with my daughter. And Maria just couldn't get her head around it. And it was a P because Maria only wanted to do books that were rock solid. And that would last forever. And I knew this book wasn't going to it was a it was a point in time book when my daughter was between 12 and 16 years old. And we wrote this book together. And I knew it wasn't going to have legs beyond maybe three, four or five years. And so she couldn't wrap her head around it. So we told it to somebody else. But it taught me a huge lesson that Maria was one of the few editors that really edited. And so we were with another company for that one book. And I was shocked beyond belief that my editor in that one didn't really even read the book just said, Oh, it'll be fine. It's like, wow, I was used to Maria, going through every single word I wrote and marking it up and the manuscript would come back, and it looked like flattie

reduce you to your, your, your lowest, your lowest level,

absolutely.

break you down.

It was super interesting to me that I haven't worked with her for well, she bought my first book 3536 years ago. And so then I didn't do anything with her for 10 years after that, because we were just getting started in our restaurants. And I put all my focus on that well for about eight years. And then I wrote my second book, 10 years that came out 10 years after the first and it was so surprising to me that she would look at everything that I wrote as though it like, I don't know whether she never retained the knowledge, but she always wanted me to explain everything really clearly. And I would say Maria, you've taught, you know, I've written about this already before, and she's gonna remind me what that is. And I was like, Oh, I'd want to pull out my hair. But that actually is what made the books really good is that she was coming at everything with this sort of new perspective, every time and it was just fascinating to work with her. I, you know, I know a lot of people had knockdown drag out fights with her we never did. Now I know you're in I, you know, I don't know. I mean, well, first of all,

Rick, you were her favorite author? And she and she, she would let me know that. I don't know, remind me, she would remind me, like constantly about about what an amazing author you were. Jim, she

had a favorite author every year. I love you all. Whoever turned in their manuscript on time with good recipes was the favorite author. Yeah,