Hello, everybody, and welcome to a brand new series on heritage radio network called the culinary call sheet where we give a peek into the back kitchen of culinary media. I'm your host, April Jones,

and I'm your co host, Darren bresnitz. Part of why we started the show was to offer an unofficial mentorship for anyone who's interested in learning about all aspects of food and video, whether that's TV, social media online, or just something you want to do for fun.

Absolutely what was once niche or a little silly, as I'm sure you remember, Darren, when we started out, this man has now become such a massive playing field for so many creatives using food as the medium.

It's something that has driven us professionally and personally, for so many years. What excites me the most about this show is that we're going to sit down with some of the industry leaders to hear how they made it and what drew them into this industry.

With 20 years in the culinary production game ourselves. We're hoping we can give through these conversations an insider's view into personal stories from the field, as well as an in depth behind the scenes look into some of the most popular food programming. In today's evolving culinary media landscape.

We'll be covering everything from how to style your food, to how to license IP, to developing your own ideas, and some tips from the masters of how to host your own show.

Yeah, it's a little bit of conversation, how to and how do you do the things that you do in color media, which I'm so excited about? I love so many of the guests that are coming on this season. We have talent from Food Network from Vice media eater refinery 29,

we've met some of the best people in the world both in front of and behind the camera. And we're bringing them all together to share their stories, their delicious adventure and their unique journey into this crazy world.

So to be the first to hear our episodes when they launched this fall, go to wherever podcasts are streaming and hit subscribe and make sure to give us a follow at the Culinary call sheet on Instagram.

This episode is brought to you by just egg it's a better egg made from plants. Bring more customers in your doors with just a egg start with their free sample at j u dot S T slash HR in

this episode is brought to you by the great grow along sign up at great grow along.com

Hello, welcome to Cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from whenever to whenever I'm on the Lower East Side of Manhattan. We got Anastasia the hammer Lopez up in Connecticut on the Long Island Sound How you doing starts it. Good. We got Matt in the Rhode Island booth. Matt, how you doing? Great doing great. We got John who's in East here and you're in line right now. Right? And you're in line predicate. So we're a We're a New England heavy show today. But I'm going to bring it back to New York because we have everybody's favorite cooking issues guest Peter bag, everyone's favorite punching bag, always

a punching bag.

Now here's the thing. So Peter came you're you're in Brooklyn right now, right? Yep. And since we haven't had you on since the pandemic, so when the pandemic started, the last time we had Peter on the show, there was not a pandemic yet. And we were furiously at the Museum of food and drink trying to open African slash American, which is our exhibition at the Museum on kind of the contributions both known and unknown of of black folk to American foodways. And in Yeah, and then the whole world fell apart. Peter had Peter Peters plan, right, Peter right or wrong was to you're going to open this, you're going to open the the exhibition, and then you're moving away from the museum to go become the head of the head of the food program there at Pinterest. But you would like timed it so that like you could like I've worked for years, I'm going to get this exhibition open. We're gonna do it. And then the whole bottom kind of fell out of the world, right?

Yeah. So instead, John and I were like, duct taping up like boxes in front of the quilt to keep the sunlight from making it fade. And like we were like, Turbo trying to like, basically, we were like, We don't know when somebody is going to be able to come back in this room again. And so we're going to basically do whatever we can to like, preserve this thing. As far as I know. I mean, it's more or less like we live If it isn't his own,

think no more stuff has been stacked in there because I forget underneath somebody else's space and seven pallets of shoe box lunches, or lunch boxes came.

Oh my god was such a crazy time.

Yeah, yeah. Crazy. It's another word for bad, right?

When is it opening?

Like, when's it actually going? Oh, cheese does cheese, Louise Oh, wait,

we really don't know. Well, look,

a lot of things. A lot of things have to happen for it to open. And you know, I'm only one person. So it's, you know, no, no, I'm

just saying like ballpark.

Oh, next year.

2022.

Yeah, that's what that's the year that comes after 2021. Because the like, the problem is, is that like, everything has to work for everybody for all the all the stakeholders and the way that they speak. So we're really in the weeds on stuff that half the people listening probably have no idea what we're talking about. The Museum of food and drink. Like, like, Peter started, Peter was the founding whatever. He started the museum's actual programming like I had this idea many years ago. I tried to start it. I failed. Anastasia and I did a fundraiser where we met Peter. Peter quit. This is the short story. Peter quit his job as a white shoe. But white shoe Who the hell wears white shoes at a white shoe law firm. What is that? What is the white shoe? What the hell?

Why is it called a slower?

Yeah. It's crazy, right? I mean, like, if you were a white shoe to work, people be like the hell Right? Right. Yeah. So he's that this white shoe law firm. And we'll get into this, we'll get into this later. Because it's well, well known that like, being a lawyer, was kind of like, you didn't really want to be a lawyer. Right? That was to please your parents.

I know, I was interested in studying the law and and being a lawyer and maybe just not working at a firm like that. But, you know, it was good to, it's good to cut your teeth at a corporate firm like that to kind of understand that world, too.

Yeah. And so he's like, I'm going to quit my job. And, you know, I'm going to actually make this museum happen, which is what he did. And we the Stasi, and I both told him not to do it. Because, you know, we're like, we don't know, is it going to work? But people boop. And, you know, also, you weren't so happy on the home front, back in Illinois with your parents? Well, I guess they weren't in Illinois at that time. But you know what I mean? Like it was, it was a source of problems, let's say,

yes. My dad and I were not on good terms for a few years there. Yeah. And that's another story.

So anyway, so like, he does this. He basically he makes it happen the museum. And then we do the African American exhibit where it was like it was supposed to be, it's going to be, you know, great. But anyway, so he negotiated with this place called the Africa Center, which is where the exhibits going to be. And, you know, we could have actually, Peter, we should have you back on some time just to talk about now that, you know, you've kind of like put a a cap on that portion of your, of your career of what it's like to start something like that, you know what I mean? Like, cuz it's just a nutty. And it's just such a nutty thing that you, you know, had to do like, from passing out on on a on a, you know, cherry picker at three in the morning trying to, like, Hang lights to, you know, negotiating negotiating with people because everyone, everyone who tries to wow, wow, whoa, can't stop doesn't like, doesn't like putting things up at 2am. Anyway. So,

yeah, no, I mean, well, first of all, I would be remiss to not say there were a lot of other people who worked on this along with me. But yes, right now, yes, I would say yes, it's a lot of self flagellation to get something like this off the ground. Starting up anything, anybody who started a business knows it's hard, I'd say starting a nonprofit is another level of interesting this and then starting a nonprofit museum that requires like a brick and mortar presence is another level of fun.

It is, it's like also, like, you know, it's a brick and mortar thing, but it's also a creative endeavor. And I think you know, the corners that you have to cut and the decisions that you have to make on the fly, and then people hold you to later are just crazy. This is why like, this is why like criticism in general, I find so kind of upsetting. Because it's kind of like I mean, a consumer of a museum event, a consumer of a drink or a dish or have a podcast, they shouldn't have to care. In fact, specifically, you know, I tell myself this all the time. Nobody cares. Like what your problems are. That's not what's important, like you're asking their time or their money. So you owe everything to them and they owe nothing to you. It's kind of like being a parent, like you owe everything to your kids, and they don't really owe anything to you.

That's why you just take all the problems, you just push them down deep inside, just keep pushing. That's my advice.

Let the hate Yeah, but it does like when critics, you know, don't kind of give any credit at all for the how hard it is to make anything happen to kind of ticks me a little bit. But anyway, so that said, tobacco, Anastasia, we can't, the fact that we're in a space at the Africa Center means that we cannot open unless we're at full capacity, we can't guarantee full capacity until 2022. Because it takes x number of months to open something to decide you're going to open it. So the CDC only yesterday came out and said that we might be back to normal by the end of the year. And it's just not enough time to flip all the switches. So there you have it. And that's how stuff works when you're a scrappy startup. Anyway, so Peter went on to do Pinterest. But the reason why I have him on the show now is he is the host of his own hit podcast, counter jam, you want to talk to us about

it? Yeah, I mean, essentially, podcast to network. Yep, it's on the food 50 Podcast Network. And it's a show that looks at culture through food and music. And so the basic gist of it is every episode takes on one cultural identity. That could be a you know, something like Korean American culture identity, or it might even be a place like New York City. And then I think of it as sort of presenting various data points. So you're just showing the perspectives of two or three people from that community and then also playing music that has been created by a couple of artists from that community as well. And so yeah, I mean, it's, it's been it's been a lot of fun to put together and I think I realized that certain point, there weren't a lot of food and music podcasts out there are actually really any music podcasts to actually play music and I know why. It's because legally, it is a pain in the butt to play music on a podcast. And then I did what of course, what I do and I just took the on the sort of masochistic task of going through like getting licensing for all the music and negotiating each individual song.

Oh, so you don't have like a blanket BMI ASCAP license, you have to go and like individually do each song.

Yeah, yeah. So that's the thing about podcasting. It doesn't work with those like BMI ASCAP licenses, because the shows are downloaded. And so they shout yet. No. And so it's a known thing in the podcasting world. So when you hear music on a podcast, either a they're doing it just hoping that they won't get busted, or that they can do a fair use defense, or they're doing what I do, which is tracking down the licensing. And it's not even just one license. Usually every song is owned by at least two entities. And sometimes three or four. And so

yeah, because any publishing gets doled out to like a billion different people, right.

Yeah. So it is, it has been somewhat masochistic. The way I've kind of gotten around it is I focus on independent artists, or I work, I get music from guests, and they're more willing to help me jump through the hoops because they're on the show. So most recent episode has Femi kuti and Maddie cootie. And so they basically connected me with all the people I needed to talk to you to get all the different licenses.

Yeah. All right. Wow. So I didn't realize. So it's amazing that you know, even in your second time around, which I appreciate that, Peter, so flagellates at all points in his life, he never learns. So in this way, like we're all on his podcast that same way. Do you think you think it's a good way to be?

Apps? I you know, what, I you know, what I say, and this is what I sometimes said, was, you know, if this were easy, everybody else would have done this, right? And so you have to kind of, I mean, there's a reason why there weren't a ton of food museums out there. And so I think there is something to looking for hard pads, because that inherently means that probably nobody else is doing it. And so you just have to be willing enough or crazy enough to do that.

And also, it's not the show. So the show the counter jam, right? It's not like, so you'll have you'll have like three guests, let's say, but it's not like a string of interviews, you kind of cut them back into each other. So you'll go back and forth between the different sets of interviews, kind of tracing a through line of questioning on on your part. And like, you know, for instance, you'll maybe you'll have some people who are in New York, some people who are in Nigeria, some people who are in LA may not the same show, but then you know, you're cutting back and forth and then like punctuating it with music, is that pretty much the sticky stick?

Yeah. All Yeah, so that's also masochistic. Essentially, I just like Get, get the interviews, and then listen to everything and then try to pull out themes and I think about like mapping out the episode after that. So yeah, it's it takes time. But it's fun.

Yeah, so the very first one, of course, you decide to stay kind of close to home. You had your mom's on which I thought was kind of kind of cool and And you did Korean as your first as your first as your first thing. And by the way, this show, like the format of the show, kind of if you need to know what Peter is, like actually kind of like like it's perfect. It's perfect Peter, right, because it combines a like the things that he likes, but also what he's been working on for years, which is kind of using food as a touchstone to talk about culture in general, and kind of how people grew up. And that's really what the museum is about. And I think that's why Peter, you know, was kind of interested in that project anyways, food as a way to food as a way to discuss us as people. Us as you know, as parts of our own culture and how to explore other cultures. You say, that's fair. Absolutely. Yeah. So his first one was, of course, his own, and he had Roy Choi from from LA. And he had, he had his mom and, and he had Margaret Cho on so it's pretty funny. And what I learned most was that I didn't know Peter, you're part of this customization, you're part of this, like, I'm going to just use what like regular like, you know, white white bread Americans call call them all ramen, but ramen customization, right? So you want to first go into the difference between ramen and ramen and like, describe, describe, I didn't realize you were part of this fat. I feel like this is a huge amount of fat, but it's a huge thing outside of the community. Now, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah, no, I mean, instant ramen is it's, I mean, I probably I've eaten many times my body weight over the course of my lifetime. I actually remember the very first time I had instant ramen, it was separate. He bought and beef flavor. I freaking love this stuff. John can attest to the fact that I ate this, like maybe 50% of the time for like lunch at work. But yeah, and then I mean, I think for me, like it's one of the ways I kind of learned to cook was by starting with instant ramen. And of course, instant ramen is the Korean version of instant ramen. Which you know, Nissen being the most well known brand and the Japanese market, but Koreans have instant ramen. And I would say the main thing that distinguishes instant ramen from Japanese instant ramen is the spiciness of the, of the broth. And then I would say, typically, you have a larger gauge noodle on the Korean instant ramen than on the Japanese instant ramen.

You're a larger noodle.

That's right, that's my, that's my nickname. And so then yeah, I mean, then like, the great thing is that you can kind of like hacky and lots different ways. And, and you can do it super quickly. So I can make what I love is that I can think about instant ramen, and then I could have the bowl ready to eat within five minutes, which is pretty great. And so I have a whole like flowchart in my head of like, do I do a dry noodle or a wet noodle? And if it's wet, like do I want to create like a fatty broth or non fatty broth,

that's my next slide when it was mine. But you have this, you have this like, kind of like, fusion nightmare. That's your favorite, this kind of carbonara, one that you were talking to really show you about. He said he was he said he was going to go out and try it. I wonder whether he didn't want you to describe your face

he actually sent me he sent me the picture right after the so he made it and he loved it. Give me the Give it to me. So here's the deal, like basically, you get the water boiling and your water kettle, take the bowl. In the bowl, crack an egg into the bowl, drop two slices of American cheese into the bowl, take your powder packet of the soup packet, put about two thirds in there, you don't need as much because you're not using any water. And then reserve the little noodle bits and reserve the dried vegetable. And then get your noodles boiling. And then it's going to take about two and a half minutes or two, three minutes to get to your like perfect authentic texture. And then take the noodles out. Drop them into the bone which you've put all this stuff. And then just mix that around. Pardon me. I know that this is a family show. Yeah, mix that stuff around your

show is not a family show. By the way. There are more F bombs being dropped in Peters show. Yeah.

Yeah. And so then the other egg you beat the egg in it. And then the American cheese melts and then there's like the noodle water that's clean to the noodles and it all comes together and turns into sort of sauce. And then and then I top it. This is what I say is the PST because he stalls topic with the dried noodle bits. And you and you tap it also with the dried vegetables and just add some texture. And voila, you've got basically kind of like I put in very heavy quotes. carbonara using instant ramen.

Yeah, yeah, so that's the St. Peter camp. So when you make that at home, just know that you're making the Peter camp. That's all I'm saying. And

you can eat it and like three slurps

I don't know if you realize this, Anastasia. Tell me if you did, but did you know that we not only have Peter Kim on the show, we have DJ Omega 60

I know I remember. EJ TJ was six contacted us to work for the museum before it was a museum that that email address

was Omega 60. Then how was he not in your phone? Peter Kim,

they are still here. Lawyer,

Peter lawyer. Why wasn't it Peter Omega? 60?

I didn't take that. Seriously.

Wow.

I don't think I ever explained to you what omega 60

You did? You did? Eventually. But yeah, still.

Yeah. So Peter and his very first podcast, Peter ended it I'm sure because you know, also you could get the rights for now. Now, I know that also you're building your life around what you can get the rights for played, like some of his just coming back from the state of coming back from Cameroon to the States. His his DJ song, Alphaville, right. Yep. Yeah, we don't have rights for it. So we can't play it. But if you want to hear for all of you, who have for years enjoyed Peter coming on the show, you should listen at the very least to that first episode. So you can hear Peters mom talking to him. And also listen to Peter Peter as as omega 60. Yeah, but

there's a whole story behind the name, which I won't go into now. It's on the episode. But I remember, you know, it's so funny. Like, I remember at one point like, and I've never really talked to people, I don't talk people much about my music. But there was one time in Philly when I finally was like, ready to tell somebody about Omega 60. And their reaction was, Oh, you mean like the fatty acid. And that's when I like to break back into myself. I was like, I'm never telling anybody again.

So while we're still talking about the show, because I you know, there's a I have a couple of questions mostly about engineer Actually, let's do the question first. And we'll go back to the show. So two different people Robert lacs. And Capri Sun from Ember Capri Sun, wrote in and said that they saw that you were making in JIRA, and they'd like to make some now, again, I listeners to the show, people who know Peter will know that he not only has a connection with Cameroon, from when he was in the Peace Corps, but also with Ethiopia, where he used to go on the regular because his wife was stationed there at the UN for years. And so you didn't hear so I have two questions. Can you talk about how you make it and where you get your TEF that's from Robert lacs, as well. And the exact same question basically from Korea. And so you too, people want to know about engineer NTF?

Yeah. So

for those who don't know, by the way, yeah, so

in JIRA is a fermented crap like bread. And it is a staple of injera, it's made with teff which is, as I understand it, the world's smallest grain. And it has a very sour flavor owing to the fermentation process and, and then it has a flavor of teff which is pretty distinctive. I don't even know how to describe it. I feel like people like to use word nutty for everything, but I don't like that. So what does that mean? It's like, I know exactly. So it tastes like tough. And so if you want to learn to try to SINTEF and and the way to

taste, it doesn't taste like buckwheat, right? It doesn't taste like any of those things.

Yeah, yeah. It's, it's got its own flavor. And, and so, yeah, I mean, and then as you probably know, you know, it's, it's, you wouldn't eat it, it's, it's, you lay it flat on the on a platter, and then you put all these very soups and stews on top of it. And so I in terms of sourcing TEF for the injera, I mean, I have had kind of an advantage because I had a big bag of teff that we bought that my wife and I bought in Ethiopia on our last trip there. And so I was I've just been using that. And I haven't really had to use any tech five source in the US for a while. So. So yeah, I can't help you there. And then definitely,

when you when you buy it, is it like is it like tiny, like amaranth or like, or like or like small millet? Or did they do by ground in Ethiopia already?

By the ground in Ethiopia? Okay.

How long does it last?

Yeah, I don't know. But like this, this case, I used the last of it, and it was maybe two years out, and it was still good. Anyway, um, and then yeah, I mean, like, the process is like, you just, I mean, it's really simple actually. It's simple in theory harder, hard to execute, but you just let you know, add water and let it ferment and then it gets like the sour smell to it. And the time as you all know, will depend on your temperature and you know, the particular test that you're using, but figure three or four days and then and then yeah, when it's ready to go. The big thing is, it's really hard to cook and keep intact. And then what you want to do is you want it to cook without like browning on the bottom and be but you want it fully cooked on the top and that can be a little bit tricky. The biggest piece of advice I'd have for people is don't try I on your first time to do it on your, on your stovetop, but start with an electric CREP maker or something that provides a really even low heat. Because on the stovetop, it's just a nightmare that just the even the small variations and how your pan heats up just screws up the whole thing.

So originally, like way back in the day, was it done with a ground product? Or was it wet ground like the way that you would do? Like idli? Or dosa better? Do you know? I have no idea. Because I wonder like whether that's something because like, I find it very difficult to grind tiny grains and get like good results. You know what I mean? Like, before I had my grinders, I tried to grind, you know, fonio, which is an African, like very tiny millet before before pure charm was bringing it in. And I had kind of difficult results to get it to work exactly the way I want to. But I wasn't using a wet grinder. I wonder whether you could wet grind hold tough, because what's easier to get here in the states do it that most of the African markets here primarily West African markets, right?

Well, in New York City, but if you're good, yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. So New York City is not really a good Ethiopian market.

But like, there is fairly easy to get the ground TEF

Yeah, I mean, Bob's Red Mill sells ground tough. I mean, it's, I've not tried it. But I know that they do sell it. And I don't think it's particularly hard to find tough now.

Bricks, whether right, or it used to be, is it still?

I don't know. I don't know. Like I said, I mean, I've had the good fortune of just having the stuff I bought in Ethiopia.

And are you 100% tough person? Are you a 5050 split? What do you do?

Man? Definitely 100%. And that's also one thing I'd say is if you go to an Ethiopian restaurant, then this is actually a pretty universal practice across Ethiopian restaurants in the US, as far as I can tell. You're in JIRA, you're going to generally get at an Ethiopian restaurant, the US will be only partially TEF. If you want the tough, you have to call 24 hours in advance, and they will make the tough for you, the tough injera for you. And so if you're thinking of going to a restaurant, think of it a day in advance and call ahead and ask for the tough injera, you have to preorder a certain quantity. But it's definitely worth it.

And in general, that works like most Ethiopian restaurants, Eritrean restaurants will do that for you.

Pretty much everyone that I have come across does that. Yeah.

Did you have to bust out some you could do it in English. Like, you don't have to know anything. You don't have to be special? Like, I don't know.

No, I think it's just yeah, I mean, it's I think, in general, I am I'm gonna hypothesize as to why they all are able to do it, but it is the case. Yeah. So so try it.

Now, for those that have never had it before. I've only had 100% teff in JIRA once, and it was it was extremely sour. Like, I assume that doesn't always need to be as sour as the one that I had. It's it's definitely worthwhile that sample that right? Don't you think so?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that's like, to me, like the having the super sour, tough. injera is the is the perfect counterpoint to the stews. And definitely worth trying, because that's what a lot of the stuff you'll find in Ethiopia is like, and yeah, it might not be your bag. But then if you're making it at home, you can just simply ferment it less.

Right now, do you think?

I have no idea. But I would, I would guess you would have majority non tiff in your Endura,

based on the flavor of what I've had in, you know, basically, you know, new New Haven and New York, Ethiopian restaurants, I would say, yeah, the vast majority of it is wheat flour. Like, the good percentage of it. You know what I mean? Right, Peter? When you say, Yeah, we test also a lot more money. And, you know, back in the day, it was rare, right. So there was a monetary reason not to do it. And then I'm sure there's some we don't think Americans will like it kind of a situation as well. Right.

Yeah. I mean, I'm sort of like, I don't know what the wholesale market is like for tough but you know, you can get flour for dirt cheap. Wholesale.

Yeah. Yeah. But you should everyone should everyone should get the full, everyone should get the full, the full tear for at least once. All right, now, back to back to your show for a minute. So one of the three lines I noticed was, and it's something I guess, that we didn't. We didn't talk about a lot. You know, you and I personally, when we're hanging out was kind of this feeling of being embarrassed by the by the food of your own culture. And it's, it's, it comes up repeatedly in, in the, in the podcasts. And it's kind of an interesting thing. It's an interesting thing to to think about. You want to talk about that as a through line.

Yeah, I mean, I think that is like a recurring theme on the show is talking about what folks ate when they were kids. And you know, I think you know, It's a it's a remarkably common experience that for immigrant families, when you're a kid you eat, the stuff that your family gives you and your family, if especially if they're recent immigrants is going to make you stuff. That's what they would have eaten in their home country. And that's going to be in stark contrast to what everybody else around you is eating. And, and it's something you'll just hear over and over, like Korean kids are embarrassed to the smell of kimchi in their home, when their friends come over Indian kids are embarrassed about the smell of the various curries and chutneys that their parents are making when they're when their friends come over and on down the line. And so, but what's interesting is, of course, in generally speaking, as you get older, you start to, you know, realize there's nothing to be embarrassed about this. And in fact, you start owning it. And on top of that, I would say food culture in the US has shifted such that there is a larger acceptance of a wider spectrum of flavors, even among people who don't aren't from the cultures that have those flavors. And so and so yeah, I mean, I think I think it is it is one of these things that is kind of a through line

now had, then, well, you and Dan the Automator. So like some of the people he has is Dan the Automator. You know, Dan Nakamura, he was saying that, you know, he specifically thinks that kind of at least his generation, his parents generation, self repression of their own culture, which extends to certain parts of the foods is due to the the internment camps, right. That was one of the things that he mentioned you. You want that that?

Yeah, so that episode is actually one of my favorites, because the three guests in this one was just happened by chance. One guest is a woman who emigrated herself to Vancouver, up Nagashima. And then the other guests was this rapper from North Carolina, whose family emigrated, his parents immigrated from Japan, and opened a restaurant in North Carolina. And then Dan is somebody who's been around, and he's like, third or fourth generation Japanese American. And you may of course, each Japanese food all the time every day. Gee, the rapper from North Carolina, he grew up eating Japanese food, but you know, it's just like a part of his experience, but not defined doesn't define his food identity. So it's like kind of similar to me. And then Dan, it's like, I didn't grow up eating Japanese food, really. And when you really get down to the difference, Dan's theory was that Yeah, his grandparents were put into the internment camps and his parents grew up were like three or four years old when they went to the internment camps. And that, not just with his family, but a lot of Japanese Americans who lived through that. They essentially afterwards suppressed their own culture, because of just the horror of being thrown in an internment camp and the fear of something like that happening again for just sticking out too much. And so,

right desire to conform. Yeah, exactly. And

so to me, like, I mean, I've obviously thought a lot about like, what I say obviously, but I have thought a lot about how horrific the internment camps the idea the fact that happened is all that is, but I had never really thought about the effect on culture, honestly. And that was interesting.

And so and then the episode that we haven't talked about yet is the one where you you do Nigerian food you have on you have on Aegon, Walden, the comedian, and which was funny because you're like, lobbing a bunch of stuff at her and like some of the stuff that you know you like from when you were there. So that's clinic classic. She doesn't like which was kind of hilarious. Right? But you want to you want to you want to talk about you want to talk about your, your connection? Well, I will say one thing first of all, because he brings us up so Peter, can Peter Kim. He when we you know after he graduated college, he went to the Peace Corps using Cameroon. Right, but you were you said you're on the border, like the name of the village you were in was kind of near the border with right. So it sounds like you guys yeah, you feel you feel like you had exposure to kind of like, food from that region. And also at the beginning of the show, you mentioned that, you know, it's it's a kind of a false border anyway. Right. Right. Like the country borders over there all you know, false borders anyway. And so you feel like you know, you have you know, some you're connected somewhat to Nigerian food. And so you when you were in the, you know, over there working like one of the things you were doing was setting up like art education, right for kids. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And Peter Kim, and you might not know this, but I wish we could post this on the on our Peter Kim has on his phone and it's available within 13 seconds of asking if anytime, possibly the greatest artwork that's ever been made. It's, it's, you know, for those of you that for those of you that are, you know, here in New York City, you can go right now to the Metropolitan Museum of Art and see the Goya print and drawing exhibition, which is by the way, amazing and I love I love Goya because they like the kind of depth of kind of just how awful humans can be but also kind of pathos and how like weird humans can be I think Goya is one of the greatest artists that just representing that it just kind of like the holy crap of life. And you know, it's especially you know, if all you know about Francisco Goya is like, you know, the, you know, small, rich children and like red outfits, then you're really kind of missing out, I think on the greatest part of one of my favorite artists anyway. But this drawing that one of your students did is almost like a Goya, like a Goya print, like one of the concrete shows or something, it's like, it's amazing drawing, and you want to just grab this right here.

So this is what I did in Cameron was I paired public health education with art classes. So the kids will learn how to draw, but they'd also learn about the health issues associated with whatever they're learning to draw. And in this case, the person was learning about, yeah, diarrhea, and I can't remember it was exactly but something where the symptom was diarrhea. And so he drew depiction of a man squatting and having the most horrific, explosive diarrhea you've ever seen, with like, complete with flies, you know, swimming around and like grimace on the face and the whole thing. And I will say that, okay, the image is pretty remarkable. But I think Dave's reaction to that was even more remarkable, because if you know, Dave, it's like, 90% of time he flies by and you're like, Okay, where they were. And then like, you put this drawing of a guy having diarrhea in front of Dave and suddenly he's like, What is this masterpiece? This weird fascination with it. I mean, it is, it is an amazing drawing. But I don't know that I ever really would have held it up as a sort of, like, emblematic example of, I don't know what but yeah,

well, it's just this guy's having a terrible moment. Yeah. And it's just captured. Right? And so like, he's not even. Like, he has no, like, it's a person. So Nastasia you like this picture, too? Right?

I don't really remember it. What? What? So?

So if you look, if you look at his at his eyes, right? He is a, he's a he's a person, right? So he has his own thoughts and dreams. And he's not happy about what's happening to him. But all of his agency in life has been removed. Like all of it, he has no more agency. And he's just like, a vehicle for his but being set on spray. And so it's, it's just, it's just this image of, like, resignation and debasement that, but Dave,

I was talking to somebody about this a couple days ago, and about how this picture no about how when you have to go like that. And it's like that you you become an animal. Like, when you're like, This person has lots of hopes and dreams. Like, that's all of us. Like, when that happens to

you. That's what makes it a great picture. But if you look, if you look at this guy's Yeah, if you, if you look at the guy's eyes, also, like, you never know, like, maybe he has a collar or maybe he's gonna die. Who knows? Because he didn't even make it to like a bathroom or whatever. He's just out there on spray. Like when like flies out? You don't know, like, you know, you don't know what the future holds for this person. You know what I mean? And it's, it's

really a formal analysis. stuff you learned at

Columbia, Columbia?

No, we're doing like an art critique on this.

I have you know, I'm a trained MFA folks, I get to say whatever I want. But well,

I can, I'm happy to share this image. And you can put it out on Twitter. So folks can can see the the wonder and beauty of this.

It's the flies. Yeah. Well, you have permission from the audit. You said you kept in contact with this person, right?

Oh, I guess know what, you're right. This is something you would know. I will have to have to ask him about that.

Now, there's, there's the trained MFA talking about do we have the rights on the yacht anyway? Yeah, so by the way, by the way, in that episode, Peter Kim said the most Peter Kim thing ever Nastasia you'll, I think get he said there's something so satisfying about the tactile sensation of manipulating Adobe ball. I rewound and listened to him saying that like three times because he was talking about foo, foo, you want to talk about you want to talk foo foo and all the various foods.

Yeah, so foo foo is it's Yeah, I mean, it's it's pounded starch or porridge. That you know, it can be it can be a pound of starch like yams, or cassava, or it can be a porridge made from, you know, grains mixed with water. And what's what's what's common about Fufu, whatever the ingredient is, is that it's essentially it ends up being a lump of starch that you rip little pieces off of with your hand and then you manipulate the Dewey ball in your hand and then you dip it into a stew eat it that way. And you know, and I say this on the show, but like it's it's inherently a neutral. staple. I mean, it's not there. It's not full of flavor, but it's the whole point of it is to be something that you scoop up sauce with. So it can be a good meme. I hate it when people like this fufu as being as being bland, because I'm like, that's the point. It's like rice or like anything that's just like a plain like, staple. What's that? But it can be

more or less sour as well though, right?

Yeah, yeah. So so different grains. And yeah, so you could do with fermented cassava. And then you're gonna get a little bit of a sour flavor, for example.

But like, I neutral, such a bad term for any grain product, right? I mean, like, does anyone actually is anyone ever come home to a house where someone has cooked rice? And not think that rice has like, a thing? You know what I mean? Like grains have their own smell or their own taste? Yeah,

no, absolutely. Of course, it has its flavor, but I've seen people where they will blast fufu for being flavor lists. And sure every fufu has a flavor, of course, like any other kind of staple, but it's not like, flavorful, like the stew that you're supposed to eat it with is right. So anyway, but I will say that, I mean, I do love foo foo, I think the general mode of eating is something I find very enjoyable. It is something I ate a lot of when I was in Cameroon, and then I will occasionally make at home and especially if I go to any kind of West African restaurant, I'll always ask for the fufu it's it's nice. I mean, like you just Yeah, I mean, there's a motion you do with the ball of food in your hand and you turn it into a little scoop at least I do. And I love it.