He's coming to you live from the heart of Manhattan at Rockefeller Center at newsstands studios joined as usual in the studio with John who how're you doing? Great, thank you. Yeah, yeah. Got Joe Hasan rocking the panels here. How you doing?

I'm doing great, man. Great to see you. Happy Holidays everybody. Oh, yeah,

yeah, yeah. And see over here on Vancouver Island. We got Quinn. I doing Quinn MD doing good. Yeah. And he's got some food news for later. He's got some food news. And yeah, yeah. And we have Nastasia Lopez and Jack molecule's Inslee in California and LA, right. Yeah. Hi.

Hey,

how's it gone over there?

Good. Great.

All right. So you know, the status yet. So first of all, call on your questions. If you're listening, you know, on the Patreon and if you're not listening on a Patreon well, then poopoo Dube, right? Yep, right. Call your question is 2917410 1507 917-410-1507. And if they want to join the Patreon, tell them why they want to do that. John, how are they good,

awesome. Community like I got real close.

So for those you know, we're in an old Newsstand. It's called newsstand studios because they used to sell like candies in magazines and sodas out of here to still got like the racks where all the old newspapers and magazines work. And it's a glass wall. So usually people come in they look they wave like kids and whatever. But this guy shows up he's on the phone, he turns around, and he makes that with faces like this one that that like squinting, like, like and then puts his hand against the side of his face and leans up against the window like he's gonna light a cigarette or something

that was very distracting. Anyway, like right next to us. All right. Yeah, join Patreon we got an awesome community of members where you can talk to each other in the discord share cool restaurant, things I was speaking with someone who just met up with one of the listeners from Texas and the listener from Texas brought up some coffee beans up to Chicago and it sounds really cool. But also discounts to kitchen Arts and Letters access to our Discord early, you know, listening abilities for this and prioritized questions that Dave will always get two on every show. So

try to Yes, yes, we have a guest sometimes there. But also, like, for instance, yesterday, I put up a big 3d file for people to print case they want but there's weird random things that go up when people ask me. I'm like, I have no venue to share a 3d file with the world, but I can share it on the Patreon right when?

Yeah, also, occasionally promo codes to certain products. Yeah, guess.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like, don't we have a deal with words age meet? Or we don't? We should. Can we?

We did last year. I'm sure Edward might be game but I don't know. We'll have to talk to him and see what what he wants to do. He does every products. Yeah,

yeah. Yeah. All right. So I'm hearing Sure. So Anastasia don't go too far away. But you're gonna need to earmark for a second because Quinn made a product that you believe should be left to the professionals. Okay, are you ready? Okay. Okay. All right. So Quinn, what did you What did you What do you make over the past couple of days?

I've been making peritonei so we made a double batch. The first one was big day and then we the other one

goes go into an aggressive Jagan Ville Yeah. All right. All right. Wait, so you beat the other one last night?

Yeah, so that one is still unopened on the first one turned out pretty good. Now we're happy with it.

Yeah. And you did the whole hanging upside down what was it a sourdough or a yeast or comp what what were you doing? Oh yeah, cuz it's so funny like I guess it tis the season right Julia Moscon for those of you that don't know want to do nothing else between now if you celebrate Christmas and you want to do nothing else between now and Christmas, you can start joining them Hoskins Panatela recipe they just came out yesterday. But yeah, so what were you any tips for people that things that you think went wrong things that are hard? Here we never had on? Remember when I remember him and Matt sartwell said that everyone if you're gonna get a Pantone book, David was that crazy hardcore professional Pantone book? Remember that?

Oh, right.

I never got it. And we never got ROI on you let your ROI pentatone fan right.

Yeah. Yeah, because I had it for the first time do that. It was very delicious.

Kind of say something No, go No. You

know, no, I haven't found something I was just gonna say can't I will have to look up. The listeners sent it to us last year but he made the best pentatone Yeah, I had him from Toronto I think well, I don't have to look him up his stuff was delicious and give him a better shout out.

Alright, so, you know, it used to be, you know, when I was a kid, it was like fairly rare to find them right now literally Goya makes pentatone is and you can get them in my, like corner, which is fundamentally like it's, it's, it used to be like a key foods and now it's like one level up it's like, it's like halfway from a key foods to a Food Emporium. Now for those who don't remember that, anyway, so like, oh, the book I'm being told is called sourdough. Sourdough pentatonic and jaguars are the the ones that listen, for those of you that never been to Vienna. I would love to go back because I swear if someone says like Vienna and pastry together on my merch, probably pretty good then because Vienna pastry. Other level? Oh, yeah. You're like, Oh, my country's got good pastry? No. You go to Vienna and you're like, oh, I have a pastry. pastry. Yeah, yeah. So like, you know, there was an Austrian dude moved into my mom's neighborhood up in Westchester was when I was too young to know any better. And actually, that stretch was in my 20s. And I was like, How could be lost when you come on? I go in there. I was like, Oh, yeah. No, yeah. And he was the guy that couldn't even hack it in Austria to move to America. I'm just kidding. I'm not like that. Not that I feel

that about the horseradish they have in Austria. Oh, yeah. slamming it comes in like toothpaste tubes.

Ah, dawlish, on my corner on my block. day every year in the season. You know, the Passover time. They're out on the corner, grinding horseradish with a gas mask on and then putting it directly in mason jars and selling it right there. Wow. Yeah. There's some things in my neighborhood are still cool. And some things like, you know, what I used to have during surcoat every year is we'd have the outdoor like, you know, how like people on the street sell things like weird things. We used to have the outdoor Citron market. The egg rug? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so like, you know, you'd have the super fancy ones with a hat. That was all completely intact, and little nub and on the end and everything,

they're there, they're really kind of ugly fruit. Yeah, yeah. But

then after, you know, look, if you're, if you're a double celebrator right after it sucks over candy, that mother and then use it in your panettone

or you make some type of like lemon with a lemon liqueur,

lemon cello. Again, triggering the Stasi again, was supposed to be a good time with her father, and it ended up being sickly sweet are my right Anastasia.

Yeah, that is true. Sure.

Did you still like looking back? Still have a good time with your father making it though? Yes, that's all the murder. So that's all that matters. You know? I mean, that's all it matters. All right. So Quinn, any tips on it? Other than obviously get long skewers and hang it upside down after it comes out anything like that anything you would do differently? Anything, anything

anything. Actually, I am force working on an original technique for getting the fact into the peritonei

was the problem with the old technique.

I mean, it just seemed unnecessary. And sort of takes time. You're getting the little bits and butter. And

we'll start writing the letter. They put it in brioche style.

Yeah. Okay, yeah.

I've done side by sides. But go ahead.

Hold back a little bit of flour. And then once the gluten is developed, kick the eggs, the butter and make a liquid emulsion. And then just like slumped out in the rest of the flower, and just surgeries, she sleep and

sleep. What's that song? That song? Shoot. What's that song Joe? Sleep Giambi not another one goes? Shoe. Well figured it out. Yeah, so I have never done that but I have experimented quite a bit usually. I've done a lot with the with like the no needs and melted butter brioche is in there fine, but I just don't have a problem with beating beating the butter and I don't know why. You know, my issue is is that melted butter. The dough is real slack until you chill it you know what I'm saying? No, no, no, no, I love the look. Or here's what it is. I love the look of dough that you've beaten soft butter into I just like the way it looks. And when it's melted it it comes out fine. It comes out great but it always has that little grease sheen. It doesn't have that like silk look when and the people who eat it. They don't care. They don't care. Right? Because they're not pregame eating it we're getting fishbowl again Hello Oh wow. Yeah, different kinds of folk though. Different kind of folk. Yes. No. What about you guys? You guys do anything interesting. You got got anything going on John anything for the holidays since this is no tan This is not a tangent by the way. This is cooking. We're talking holiday cooking. I did cookies this weekend. Do you guys do anyone else here

do Christmas cookies used to sugar cookies? Sugar? Yeah.

You don't seem too excited about a sugar cookie. I mean, they're good. But what happens are spreads. Cut, cut. Okay, but

I haven't done those in a long time. I don't I'm trying to figure out what to do for Christmas dinner.

Yeah, so yeah, I, I made I saw like, years ago, we used to do spreads all the time. Like cut cookies and same batter for spritz cookies using the 1993. Cook's Illustrated where you put cornstarch in to the to the flour, a little bit of lemon zest and all that and you let it chill you roll it out, right so it makes either good sugar cookies or it makes decent spirits cookies. But I don't know we got we stopped using the cookie gun for a while for whatever reason we know the aluminum, the fat aluminum one with a twist doodle. And then I was in a thrift store like at the beginning of the year. And they had like the Italian marcato Atlas cookie press, which works more like a caulk gun that you push down. And it's got 20 dies and a picture of what each die actually does with cookies. And a really hardcore like the Italian recipe which is it's, it's it's crazy. It's a huge amounts of butter huge. It's like flour. I used integrally these are like you can make an integral and like I will then and so like I use the flour, like loads of butter. And then just for egg yolks, right, and I added zest so the liquid is for egg yolks and then just enough milk to get it to go into the press. And you could pick this dough up and roll it like kind of playdough and that gun is awesome. And then I use them to make lemon sandwich cookies. So I made like a lemon cream. And my lemon cream was instead of using all shortening, which is kind of gross, right? Yeah. Instead of using all butter, which is kinda like wet, right? Because it's gonna get all greasy unless you keep it real cool. I did 5050 Butter coconut. I use coconut oil, you know, coconut fat and butter. And I whipped those together with the lemon zest Lemon. Lemon essence. Yeah, vanilla. Yes. It's good. Good. Add a citric acid because you know me, obviously. Although a lot of people might not like the citric acid because it's like powder, it doesn't really melt in the fat stuff. So it's more like it's more like you know, like remember those. I used to love these kind of they're not good cookies, but I loved them too called lemon coolers. And it's yeah 11 coolers right they're like they look like a Nilla wafer but they're they're covered in powdered sugar and there's a weird little crevices of yellow crystals that are like real lemony and they pop those suckers. Those were those were big money cash money when I was a kid like that was like that. I remember those. Yeah, have those two a messy, messy powdered sugar everyone. Yep.

How should I hate powdered sugar? Really? The only one I can't stand pat like I can send like a Zeppeli with full of powdered sugar.

Let me ask you this. Joe, let me ask you this.

You get the coffee. That's what I thought.

I knew. I knew it. You're eating it one day, the summer mizuko. That's the word you are trying to like have a conversation with someone you breathe in while the pastry was near your face. Like that, you know what I mean? Yeah, and then like, you know, is the other thing I used to hate is I remember the first time I went to New Orleans, you have to go the first time you go to New Orleans you have to go to cafe du monde. And they put an absurd, absurd amount of powdered sugar on their bein yeas, right. I guess like the first pound of powdered sugar that goes on each one absorbs the extra oil. And then the rest of the rest of it is just like a cakey layer on top. So like when I was a kid, I used to wear a blue dress pants everywhere. So I still remember like the blue dress patches like cuz also like you know, I was I am still messy human. Both powdered sugar everywhere else like this is a nightmare. But I do like the effect of powdered sugar. I like a powdered sugar doughnut. But I like to eat it over the sink. And I like to sit at a table and eat a powdered sugar product. Anyway. You want to not edible Chicago hotdogs what? too messy same thing the drip everywhere? Yeah. I don't know that sounds like you probably also like Toronto hot they drip everywhere. What's the Toronto content with everywhere anywhere you go and a street hot dog has

it because too much relish

too much everything anytime you put a like this in New York City where like you put mustard you put sauerkraut you hold it in your hands it's not that big. You shove it into your face at a trot and it doesn't fall on you so did

you not like superduper weenie?

I did like superduper windy but I topping heavy I now in you sit need it. Yes. It's not a running dog New York, New York hot dogs for as little as I enjoy caseless hot dogs, right? The one thing we've got going other than the fact that if you go to like mics or it used to be great grazing mics used to be able to get to hot dogs for $1 Yeah, the fact that they can put out infinity hot dogs in zero seconds, and that they're that cheap, but also New York's are running hot dog. That's true. You know, I use To buy a hot dog on 100. And where was that place? It was 100 and like ninth or 10th street, and I will go in, I'd be like, how much do I have I pocket 255 dogs, you handle the 250 they hand you or whatever it is, yeah, five dogs at five dogs. Those five dogs I would eat. In the five minutes it took to walk the five blocks back to my studio. That's how New York lunch works.

Yeah, just like when you eat lamb over rice.

You said it's not cool, right? We know the Stasi and I got running dinners. The Stasi and I got running dinners.

We all made it to the same place at the same time. Oh, well, people John is making

exactly making our point for us. We order like, you know, you know heroes, right? Like something like like some sort of lamb or chicken stuff in a bread that's wrapped that it's wrapped in aluminum foil. So you could appeal the aluminum foil back like a freaking banana. Shove the sandwich in your face while you're running to Billy Joel. Just ask am I wrong about this?

Yeah, all right. All right. Well, then John got a bowl with a fork

with rice, tiny grains. Yeah,

I eat that like almost every night after work naughty wandering back from elsewhere to my apartment. Listen.

Everybody knows that if you need to Hoover rice, if you need to Hoover it. Get his phone at least at least his phone. He's like eating it with a pitchfork. You know how crappy those like plastic plastic chopsticks? Oh my god, Joe, don't get me started. If he if he had gotten a pair of chopsticks. First of all, the Hello card guy would have been like, what do you what do you use? And then secondly, if he had had chopsticks, I think the Stasi would have punched him. I'm pretty sure that's what would have happened. You guys got any? Oh, one more. One more cookie thing on my side. I made. So I always make the Richier rally, which are the almond cookies. They're like, like, you just it's almond. Or you can usually grind the almonds, but you can use almond flour. And if you grind the almonds, you grind it with with regular sugar so it doesn't turn into a paste, right. But if you use almond flour, you use powdered sugar. And there's no flour in it. So it's gluten free. And then whipped egg whites. And like vanilla and zest. You know, I mean like orange zest and almond extract. If you if you really want to do it, you can get the apricot kernels and add your own stuff, but just get the extract anyways. So like you make the you make the batter. And then you let it rest for a long time. And then you make the cookie shape and you put the cookie shape and powdered sugar and then you make them into like you know, little like kind of laws and shapes and you put them on the tray and you let it rest for like an hour after that so that this dries out and when you cook it, it puffs a little bit and you get cracks in it right. So I decided to do with pecans this year, but again, like I'm the only person and eat them all because they're so delicious. I skipped a zest and I used a brown sugar instead of regular sugar and I ground the pecans in thing but other and I didn't whip the egg whites is where I normally do. And they still are great. I think what happened is is that the old one where you whip the egg whites is to get a little air in it so that there's bubbles in it while it's resting. But the food processor whips enough air into it as it's grinding that I think it's fine. I need to do now next next year I'll do two batches of almond as well as pecan one with the food processor one without Yeah, anyway, it's on Instagram, you can go check it out, but ritually are good. They're good, good product. And the pecan ones are you know not ritually because they're pecans, but they're still delicious. Alright, stars. What are you doing? Are you doing anything for Christmas stars anything? No nothing by you Jack.

This year go to my brother. My brother's where's your brother? No. I'm gonna my brother's in Connecticut. But in terms of cookies my grandma used to make those. Have you ever had them the Sicilian like pina Lata

Oh yeah, I love those. Those things

do Yeah, that was my grandma's thing. So my mom does still do those

with it. Did she make it the way that the way that that so someone who for the past you know, I don't know 15 years or so we always make Christmas cookies with the same family and with for them they make the Imperial latte with they use a to wine based it's a wine based pasta dough that they roll out and then with the nuts and and and raisins and all that and they roll them into the shape and then cook them and then then they drizzle is it the same way in your family?

No I think we're just like regular fried dough.

We did this is more like one of the like a fried thing more like a smoothly. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, but where's that one from fried dough balls and the Sicilian. Oh, yeah, these guys are Calabrian. Yeah, so must be a different product. Anyway. I like it. I like it.

Yeah, no, I think I think in Sicilian they call them Pina lotsa But it's like truthfully, wouldn't be what it would normally be called.

me ask you this. Have you ever had when you go out and you get like a screw, flee? And it's like a hard brick and has those weird little sprinkles on top? Aren't you always kind of like what the hell? You know? I mean, you're like, so for those who don't know, imagine

she made them with sprinkles to really rainbow sprinkles, right? Yeah. Yeah.

It looks like a miniaturised goopy croquembouche with sprinkles on top. To me. That's the way I always because the balls are little, the little balls, right? Yep. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I never wrap my head around it. But this is something that you look forward to.

Actually don't even like you know, it's a nice nostalgic. Yeah, it's gonna I think that's the kind of reminds me of grandma, but I never liked him.

Okay. Okay. So I want anyone who's listening to this. Who likes that? To tell us why they like it. Why does it still exist as a product other than for nostalgia? Speaking of styles, you know what I mean? Hey, start, didn't you when you were a kid? Say that you also used to do the popcorn and cranberries strings. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we used to do that. I haven't done it with my kids. I don't even know what it is anymore. I think it's gone. I think it's gone.

Is that like the decoration type of thing. You do the popcorn and the Yeah. Yeah, we never we never did

any Jewish. Tie it to the mantel. Anyway, but you know what I did do that I did in the 70s it's holiday time. I did the orange with the clove. And then he does it was cinnamon. That's nice. I think I believe it are called Palm Enders. And Jen made one it was all fancy looked all fancy. Look like what's that character from Hellraiser? pinhead. Hers kind of look like pinhead. And then when they dry out the clothes kind of stick out of the orange more so it looks like you magically stuck all the clothes exactly in at half height. But really just the orange shrank around it. It's pretty slick. But the clothes stop the orange from rotting as well as the cinnamon dust that you put on it. So they don't rot. They just dry out. As long as you hang them. Anyway. Enough Enough of our holiday garbage. Let's deal with some folks call it a garbage. It's not garbage people. Listen, I call everything garbage people shouldn't get offended. Am I right, John?

Yeah. Natrum get offended. Yeah, yeah. All right.

To each their own garbage. Right. Jay Peltier writes in, hey, I'm going to be cooking a beef Wellington for eight for Christmas dinner this year. I've made it once before, I don't remember the recipe and ended up with middling results. After looking around online I'm planning on largely using kanjis recipe but want to see if there any additional recommendations as to technique, recipe or strategy to make sure I do not let down the extended family on Christmas. Thanks in advance. Listen, Jay, you're going to let down your family no matter what. That's my been my experience is that no matter what I do, I've done something to let my family down, right? Yeah, can't escape it. That's like part of Christmas. First thing you should do is watch somebody whose family is messed up Christmas even more like watch Christmas vacation. Yeah. And then that's the person who's messed up Christmas even more. Yeah. And then you're like, it's fine. Yeah. But I looked at Kennedy's recipe. I kind of so. So for those you that don't know Beef Wellington. It's a tenderloin, you see, or the tenderloin off. And then you put, you know, cut up mushrooms that have been sauteed in butter and usually pate default gras, although let's see a lot of recipes, skip it now. And then assuming and then nowadays, I didn't do it when I you know, in the 70s they wrap a parachute around it to keep it to a package, wrap it and puff pastry and then cook off the puff pastry. Kgs uses like actual slices of swag right? I think that's kind of sounds like a pain in the behind me. I like pate is easy to spread. Here's something a pate is easy to buy, easy to spread, right? I don't even see anything off. So I mean, I would stick with the pate. The other thing that he does is he wraps a fellow around the beef log beef log to absorb some of the liquids so the puff pastry doesn't get soggy. That seems like an okay thing. My thing is this look, I looked at some of the people on the internet and what they do is is they they buy the tenderloin and then they cut off the tip of the tenderloin. So you have a pretty even cylinder, right? And the truth of the matter is, that's not the way most of us buy it. Right? We're buying the like usually when I buy a tenderloin I buy the whole thing and I've got the tail on it right and I don't know about you I am too sleep. So I am not going to like cut that off and grind it to I don't know what I'll do it I'm not going to cut it off it's not gonna happen. So what's I'm not cool. I used to do back you know when I was a kid when I was like afford it the fold that tip over and try to make a tube and you roll it up. The better way to do it is to cut it and then get meat glue get you know go get Moo glue on the you know on Amazon like overnight delivery which is trans glute ham. In case and glue it to glue the tail back on to the slanting parts so that you have an actual perfect log. All right with me. Now, specifically Kenji believes, right, because we've had this argument, he believes that you can, that there's a miracle whereby the beef is going to be exactly perfect, you know, at the exact minute that the puff pastry is done, and that everything is going to be copacetic. And that the world is in that there's going to be joy and laughter in the world. And I have found that stuff goes wrong more often than not, if you if you pull something like that, as soon as the puff pastry is done, by the way, here's something if you pull that thing when the puff pastry is done, when it comes out of a 450 degree oven, I'd slice it right quick. Here's why it's gonna keep cooking, right? And then you're OSED. Right. So I think the protections he uses are anyone who's looking at if you look at it, and they have a nice rosy center, the duck sells and all that is more of a protection against over cooking, right, because it's just stuff that you have to cook through before you get to meet. The whole trick is to get the puff pastry cooked before the meats overcooked. So I would make sure it has a good buffer all the way around it. Right? Then he hates pre cooking doing that, but I'm a huge believer in insurance. He salts his liberally before he Sears it and and then rolls it. So if you're going to do that the issue is is that the pre Cook has to be below safe temperature. All right, you're not going to want to cook that tenderloin higher than about 52 Celsius, right? So you can cook a tenderloin up to about 45 minutes or so at 54 degrees Celsius. And have it be good. If you cook it for more than about an hour. It starts getting fibery you know that fibery tastes that I hate. Some people don't mind it. There is there is literally 100 kids walking through the lobby. It's a lot of cute though. I kids, the kids like No, no Hello, children. Yeah. So anyways, so if you solve it beforehand, right, you need to drop the temperature a couple of degrees because that's the effect salt adds that firmness of a couple of degrees of temperature, especially when you're going to chill it down. Roll it and like have it chill as a chilled log before you cook it. So what I like to do is cook it low, but just remember, it's not being saved. So cook it at like 50 to like sear the outside so that you kill the bacteria on the outside. Put in a 40 to a 52 for like no more than an hour like less even get the shape nice like meat, glue it together, roll it into a log 52 Maybe 5352 for an hour, pull it, chill it, put your duck sails, roll it, you know, make your package roll it chill it, then wrap the puff pastry and pull it out of the pull it out of the fridge. Like an hour or so before you're going to cook it. Let it warm up a little bit to give the thing a jump. And then throw it in the oven on rip. And then just as soon as the puff pastry is done, pull it and you should be okay. But now you don't have to worry. Did I get the the inside make it up to 120? Who cares? That's what Suvi for insurance is people. It's insurance and having ruined so many food items in my life. Anytime that I can be like, I don't care. I'm insured. I'm like Yeah, do that. You know what I mean? And then just get that puff pastry cooked as quickly as possible. You wouldn't be done.

Yeah, I would also recommend looking up Calum Franklin, he was a chef in the UK who is very, very, very well known for his Beef Wellington. Is he dead? Now he's alive. Oh, and he's got a cookbook out there some recipes. Well, he's no longer at the pie room. He's moved on to somewhere else

that yeah, if he's if he knows pies, yes. Yeah, yeah,

that was supposed to be great. Yeah. So recommend that.

Don't worry, stop. I'm not getting on the pie train. I don't believe there's any pie questions. Don't have to worry about it

okay, Dave Klein writes in so Jeremy Umansky. We had on the show when, when he enrich came out with the kkog book, not co G. Weight, not koji your dog Kochi.

Kochi alchemy.

Did you name your dog after the book came out?

I don't know. When did the book come out? I don't know. Like two years ago, a

book came out first. Okay. We had them on the show when we were still with Voldemort. Oh, that's right. Yeah. All right. Jeremy Umansky from larder. Who, John John, you've been there? You liked that place. I

started there for a week. I

never I've never been there for

super tasty place. So if I go to Cleveland, I would always will always go here. It's great.

Dax is applying to a school in Cleveland. I haven't I haven't been to Cleveland since I was in my 20s. Yeah, I did a really it was a good city. I did an art install at Progressive the progressive owns a huge art collection. They have one The largest private art collections anywhere and it's all throughout all the progressive buildings and every no they used to do it every year so they would hire like you know a big current artists to do a large scale presentation and like one of their you know large scale installation one of their and I had to help my my art professor at the time. You want to hate doing sanding metal man? Yeah, I freaking hate it. Like just like, even with masks like you caught you. You're coughing up black and silvery phlegm. And like, even when I pass it on the street, the smell of grinding wheels. My wife's like, I don't mind I'm like, Yeah, because you didn't have to work on a metal.

Like ferrous oxide like wood. Well,

it's like, so like, you know how like, When you scrub stainless, you smell it. There's that metal smell. I can't stand that smell. So imagine that plus the abrasive grit and burning from the disks. You're just you're just putting all of these like yeah, aluminum oxide discs, you're grinding them down. And the black dust and the and the stuff it's just filling the air. It's it's also loud as hell. So it's like constant punishing. Loud plus, like this like, like it's it's a very distinct smell metal shop smell is a very distinct smell. I don't mind the welding smell actually I liked the arc smell. But like the grinding smell. No, no, no thanks. We

have similar tastes I used to work my father is an auto mechanic and I grew up my whole life working with him. So I do remember very particular smells of metal and chemicals but the smell of brake pads being brake pads, not the calipers the actual discs being recut is by far one of the terrible smells of the world. Which is

so funny because you love the brake fluid.

Love the rate floor. I love the brake fluid.

Yeah, feels like I'm a Kanye Shanthi of the different brake products aroma. The brake fluid choice. Good wrench. Geez. Alright, so back to Umansky. Right, so we're talking about Lemanski lock is now Romanski does a non standard lock I've never we were you there during the season. Were you making lock? Because there was yes, actually. Yeah. Yeah. Was he using this new technique while you were there?

What's the technique? So for whatever

reason, whether it's historical or not, he's like, I don't want to use a lot of binders. I don't want to do a lot of I want potato you know, basically potato only. So he Parr bakes them, right. Yes, he did. First let me say this people. Everyone says things about russets? Yes, it's the correct one to use. But the logic people use about what starch does is bent it the everyone is right use russets. And yes, they are higher in starch, what they are is actually lower in water. Right? They have a higher specific gravity, right? That's the bill Billy. Right? And you there's a lot more water in the cells of a of a lower gravity potato. So it's not that they're russets. Right. It's a you need a high gravity, potato, low gravity potato no matter how you squeeze it is going to have more water in it. It's going to absorb more oil when it fries, right. So but anyway, neither here nor there. But every time I read an explanation of why do you russet potatoes, like it's kind of right, but why does it always have to be wrong? Yeah, right. Starch doesn't make blockers go brown. Sugar makes Lacus go brown. Right? Yeah. So it's like there are sugars in most of the potatoes that we have because of the way they're stored. Which is one reason why if you're going to make potato chips or if you're going to make blood because and you're worried that they're going to go to brown, you soak them that gets rid of the sugar and you squeak some people don't soak whatever or with potato chips and the squeeze the hell out of them to get the extra water out. The reason if you do soak right to things, keeping the enzymes from you know, ruining the potatoes, turning them all garbagey like you know, I think it also has a taste that weird brown, purple red grossness that potatoes get, you know, but there's that because it won't happen underwater. And there's also leaching out sugars, right? Starch on its own doesn't burn because if it did, then the potatoes which are made of starch would burn. It is sugar that burns. Alright, anyway. So are we got to college, I finished it. I finished the landscaping or take the color and then go back to a mascot. He parks the potatoes. He parks the potatoes, about 30 minutes roast them then grates them when they're parked. Right, I'm gonna let that sink in why he does that? And I'll give you a hint. It's because he's pregelatinized Some of the starch so the starch has already soaked up some of the water that's in it. It's easy. He doesn't use a binder because cooking the potato makes the potato into its own binder. Okay, so now Let's take the caller caller, you're on the air.

Hey, how's it going? Good. All right, what's up,

stuff definitely has a little bit of a moisture management issue certainly not holiday related. In the process of actually trying to formulate a pet chew, it's a blend of using oat flour, egg whites, pork fat, peanut butter powder, and beef broth. And, you know, right now, the only mold that I have to cook them in are a fairly thick silicone mold. My business partner is a silicone mold manufacturer. And the issue I'm having is that I'm baking them at 350 for 15 minutes rotating and other minutes and they just can't seem to get the moisture out utilizing the silicone molds and the nature of the cook that I have right now. I get better results when I go to a coarser particle size, like a brand versus an oat flour. And actually, I'm actually aligning with a manufacturer that's going to be able to bake these off and vacuum ovens getting to an average of 12 inches mercury or 300. Tour.

So you're trying to get

a crunchy chew. Yeah. dogs enjoy a nice crunch.

Yeah. I mean, like, I mean, the perfect the, how do the big companies, because I would only know how to do it once everything starts dry, and then goes in almost to like, like an extruder and then comes out of the extruder relatively dry and then just needs to be like, like hacked up when it's like a dough. And then you know, it can basically go on a conveyor belt oven and be dehydrated rather than cooked. Right. Right. And then, you know, once it dehydrates to a certain scale yet, right. But I'm wondering like, like, kinder Adobe pipe? It can. Yeah, I mean, I'm wondering whether or not like, you might, I mean, I know your partner's a silicone mold manufacturer, right, but I don't know anyone that commercially would mold it, right? I wonder whether or not right? I wonder whether there's

a reason why we do have to mold it, why there is a you know, a strategy behind the creation of the shape is essentially a PA, we have a cavity in the palm of the PA that a gelatin filling actually goes on as a delivery mechanism for CVD. And it's a it's a fairly, you know, dynamic product that we're working on. But essentially, we need to have this shapes that cavity on to make like a linear chart for for dogs and incense. But having this cavity shape is going to be you know, crucial for the design of this product and the suffer now at least until we can get stamped metal mold, you know, kind of like muffin tin so to speak that we can cook into and conduct better. I need to figure out a solution with what we have right now. And I was wondering if you could

but this is more reasonable direction. It's not a food, it's a snack. So you're like a person is not buying a 20 pound sack. They're buying like a four ounce bag, so you don't need to worry about I was thinking you're sitting there and like, you're like, you know, have you know, five sheet trays. Here's your breakfast Pucci. You know what I mean? So it's like you're not doing that, like you're doing more cookie. All right. I mean, I don't know I might try like, like I was talking earlier in the show like a cookie gun. But if you want to do a mold, and you haven't had any luck, just like letting it dry out for a while, right. And then D molding it and finishing on more.

I've done a 15 minute cook unmold pseudo successfully continue to cook for another like 30 minutes, and then that desiccate that completely and get to the craziness that I'm looking for.

Here's what I would do it. Try this, try this. Try this. Try this. mold them, strike off the mold, mold them, freeze them, pop them out frozen onto a D high tray and then just dehydrate them gently. Have you tried freezing that

wood? I haven't. It's just I don't know if I'm going to have the capacity freezer capacity at production to be doing that. Have you ever cooked with vacuum ovens before?

I have tried to modify unsuccessfully, an oven I've also tried to do microwave vacuum dehydration. And you have to be real careful when you do that because you get intense plasma arcs which like are awesome but they ruin all the food that's inside of your inside of your oven. I mean, like like crazy like Like, you know, like, you know, all bow to Zod like electricity and freaking the Emperor kind of like stuff, but it's like, yeah, I've never owned a vacuum oven, but they're probably good. You can lower the temperature, I think, look, you, you want to lower the temperature and have it go in a reasonable amount of time, I'd say you got to D mold those suckers somehow, like, you know, in production. I know it's more expensive, but you could do a park a quick par freeze with ln will pop them out in in the silicone won't get killed, you could pop them out in in like under a minute. You don't I mean, you could just like par freeze them, you could pop them out under a minute and they also won't be frozen in the middle. So you won't have to wait all that time to get them to thaw before they start dehydrating. But I you know, I think it's not going to have a lot of luck inside of the molds cooking it because the grease is going to render out and it's not going to stay where it is. And it's gonna you're gonna get weird floaties and like, all this kind of my guess is that's what's going to happen. And that, you know, there's always going to be kind of issues and this way you won't need as many molds, you throw them on sheet trays and they could probably just dehydrate you know, in plain air for a while until they until you have oven times. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, so I'm gonna try some.

I'm gonna be running. Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna be running trials with the vacuum ovens here in the next couple weeks. All if you guys

Yeah, do you have a vacuum? I mean, I've never I've never really used one. But they are, they are great for reducing your temperature, which liquid boils. So, you know, like dehydrating apple chips and things that brown it's great. So maybe, you know, maybe you'll have some luck? Let us know. So shoot me a tweet at cooking issues. Or if you still Twitter, or Instagram. Anyway, Twitter now is all people talking about how much they hate Twitter. No one ever actually gives real information on Twitter anymore. You know, I mean, it's like, I don't care, either quit. Or ask me a question about cooking. I don't know. I don't need to know about the mechanism of how we're communicating at this point. Anyway, maybe I do. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. All right. All right. Well, good luck. Let us know how it works out. All right, back to latkes. So moisture management on lockers, right? So the classic locker recipe, you grate the potatoes, you squeeze the hell out of you squeeze the hell out of the potatoes to get the liquid out of it, right? Because if that liquid, you need to get the liquid out quickly, right. But then conversely, you add liquid back in the form of batter, which just goes to show, right that the question of liquid is liquid itself is not your enemy bound liquid inside of the potato that doesn't immediately leave is your enemy. Liquid in the binding is kind of okay, because otherwise eggs wouldn't work. Right. Right. So that stuff, though, can bubble out and kind of leave quickly. So what was the question that Dave had about this? My question is, can we be a little more scientific about the recipe, what's happening, what's actually the ideal temperature to bring the potatoes to to properly denature, whatever enzymes are causing them to oxidize or to maximize stickiness, I prefer to use an internal thermometer and bring the potatoes to a specific temperature. So I don't have to worry so much about things like size, initial temperature, and so forth. That way, I can even use a water bath to park them, I'd love to hear you elaborate on the subject. I wouldn't use a water bath, like the whole point of kind of baking them as you're flashing off some of the liquid right? Also, the issue is, is that kind of like and someone asked later on if we're gonna get to it, but they asked about an externalization question and someone's going to ask about a milk bread question. And you're not trying to cook the potato all the way through. If you cooked a potato all the way through, right, then it's going to be mush when you when you grade it, you're trying to to park. So you're trying to get you know, the starch granules to start to swell to start to, you know, paste to start to gelatinous, but not to go all the way. So it's kind of very hard actually, to judge that based on a thermometer. Because as soon as the center gets up to a particular temperature, basically you don't know what the outer stuff is up to. So it's actually kind of complicated to come up with a bullet proof number, it's easier. And when you're a professional, like Jeremy is, you know, you're ordering a potato size, it's relatively uniform, right? You get you order a particular size of potato. If you're going into you know, a supermarket. I typically buy sack potatoes, like five pound sacks of potatoes. But even those are not uniform at all. And if you get what's called don't get a bacon potato, that's going to be a nightmare. They're too big, you know what I mean? Like quote unquote, baking potato. So I have to say, I don't think there's going to be a way too easy Lee science of phi, this, basically what he's doing with this technique, and it's kind of just because he wants to do it, right. Because you know what binds lockers? Well, matzah meal. Like matzah meal binds because you know why? Because it's pre cooked. It's pregelatinized starch. It's already absorbing liquid. Like as we speak, you stick it in liquid, it's absorbing liquid. Uncut. Oh my what that heck is this they've