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Hello, and welcome to cooking Tuesday marled your host of cooking issues coming to you pre taped, pre taped, right so it's going to be pre taped on the radio network in Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you happen to have gotten our message that we're pre taping today, you can still call in your questions to send 184972128 That's 718-497-2128. Today, we have a very special guest in the studio, we have Linda Kwok, who is the founder of cup for cup gluten free, like kind of like the best known like, for years. For those of you who have celiac, or perhaps you are one of those people that for some reason I don't understand just reduces your gluten intake even though you have no problem with it. You know, one of the issues has been that there's been no very good kind of restraint replacement for wheat flour that works in you know, a variety of different recipes. And one of the reasons is because wheat flour is kind of a miracle. So, you know, Lana was at? Well let her tell the story. Welcome to the show. Hi, everyone,

how you doing?

And of course we got stars here and we got we got Jack over in the booth. And we have Lindsey actually Lin, his publicist. So why don't you tell me a little story about how a cup for cup came to exist? And correct me if I'm wrong. It's like the only decent one on the market. Right?

I don't know if I'd say that. But we definitely focus on quality control.

So give me a little bit of the story. So I actually

interned at the French Laundry, right at a culinary school. And one of the things that I noticed was that the chefs work about 14 to 12 hours a shift. And so these are really creative, creative, creative individuals. And they had no time to experiment with all of their innovative thoughts. And so I wrote out a proposal at the end of my internship to create a position r&d chef at the French Laundry. And the chef at the time Cory Lee, he actually took this concept and took it to Thomas and I was accepted as the r&d Chef. And from there I did a lot of dietary restrictions for diabetic dishes. And then also gluten free, and vegans, and with a one dish that really resonated well with the chef's were the gluten free bread. And so from there, we started developing products because people were coming in and crying over pieces of bread, because they haven't had it for seven years. And with about a year and a half, we dove into this project and started developing a gluten free flour line.

Nice. So now I think something that people might not understand me probably listeners to this show understand, but like how much care you know, restaurants, you know, at this level take with people who have everyone knows this shows hate when people have restrictions, dietary restrictions, every chef hates it when someone has a dietary restriction, right. They hate it. They hate

it. But you know, it's one of these things. There's, there's a divide with chefs, I feel like there are the chefs who, you know, it is it is their style. And their as artists, you know, they feel so passionate about what they serve, they want to change anything because it is their piece of work. However, there are other group of chefs who understand also there's, it's an experience, you know, and everyone has a preference as an individual. So who are you to also tell an individual how to eat something, you know, and so there's two schools of thought, I don't believe one is better than the other. However, you know, for Thomas, it's really about how a guest takes in that experience, and he wants to make it everything, he doesn't want to dilute anything, just because you may have a restriction. So he wants to elevate that whole experience for you.

Right. I mean, I think one of the reasons why a lot of chefs hate people with not hate people, it's very, it's very valid. But one of the one of the reasons that they get all hot and bothered when someone has a dietary restriction is, and this is what I think people don't understand is that they are worried it's not as I mean, sometimes it's just ego. But a lot of times I think the chef is worried that the person is going to, it's the same as when someone asked for their steak, well done, the chef just worries that this person is actually not going to have a good experience at the restaurant. Because now the chef has to cook something that the chef doesn't like, or chef doesn't respect or chef doesn't know whether the quality is the same. And they want the quality to be as good. No matter what they put out. They want to be proud of what they put out. And they want all the customers to have the best possible experience. And I think it's the nervousness that they're not going to be able to do that in the face of certain dietary restrictions that gets a lot of a lot of chefs bent like a pretzel, but you know, the fact of the matter is, is that that in the more kind of high end more expensive restaurants are, the more typically they'll bend over backwards to try to accommodate this stuff if they can.

Absolutely. And, you know, I think I completely understand how chefs take this as they want to guide someone's experience to the level that they understand as experts what's going to be the best way to present one dish, but at the same time, those people who have certain you know, specific needs or you know, they don't particularly like certain things, they're not gonna allow themselves experience that the way maybe a chef would like and so rather than fighting that I think it's just give people what they want, you know, they're coming in to have a certain level of expectation when they sit down, you know, they're paying for their meal and I really believe that you know, you have to accommodate people as they come in because they're your guests you know,

now when you're when you're trying to develop something that is gluten free flour that works for kind of any application right I mean there's there's a lot of issues with that because a lot of recipes right use one aspect of wheat flour and a lot of recipes use different aspects of wheat flour and very few very few things you know act like like wheat flour in every kind of situation. So how did you how did you go about taking up this kind of how did you approach this kind of a problem

god I'm so glad you brought this up I can give you a hug because it's so hard to really explain to people you know that flour is such a complex single ingredient you know if anything because of my research development through this I've had such a deeper appreciation for flour and its performance. But yes, there are different types of wheat flour that people don't really always consider. People always call in about a cup or a cup. Can I make bread and and yes, you could formulate you know a recipe using that ingredient but it's not gonna perform the best bread flour well because it has higher gluten content. And even all purpose flour is different from bread flour and, and so I think it's very hard for people to understand that there are there are different applications for just regular flour that you know with cup for cup what I really focused on was what were people missing the most from baking was cookies, quick breads, pies biscuits, I felt like that was what the home cook was looking for. So I really needed to develop something that was more like pastry flour, if anything, however, able to perform in different recipes as a multipurpose

right because none of those applications rely heavily on gluten in fact, a lot of those law Out of those applications, people tried to shunt out to gluten, you know, in a lot of ways. So those are kind of good, good applications, but even

frying also, it works better with, like temperature matters because there's no gluten that's going to cause it to be a soggy fry batter

do like tempura.

I don't, me personally, I don't like to eat a lot of fried but I definitely like crispy.

Yeah, I mean, that's the thing I think 10 For I'm gonna get yelled at by somebody. But like, it's one of those things that I think that you know, every everyone thinks it's the most like, like many, like, very tweaked out Japanese techniques. People think that it's kind of the height of the fry. And I just don't I don't think that's necessarily the case. I mean, I think that I think that, you know, I've had some very good tempura chefs make stuff for me. And I'm like, Yes, this is good. Do I think this is the height of fried?

No. Now I like to shatter like light fry. If sometimes I don't even like a batter. Actually. I like it when it really is a very thin shattered fry. If you're talking about specific frying methods. Yeah, so temperature is not my favorite, because it might be a little thicker. But I've had a wonderful temperature before. Yeah, yeah, it's good. But

then it's like, also, like, you need to eat it instantaneously. They under fry it. So it's so freakin blonde. It's like, you know, it's whatever, I don't want that done. Don't get me started, we started. So the nobody. So like a lot of the applications that you see. And I think this is the way to hit things that people miss the most. Because a lot of people they're gonna bring up bread, the most difficult, I mean, the most difficult, but

even bread, you know, it's one of those things that takes such technique and years of experience to make good bread, you know. And I again, it's not something that we're not working on, it's going to be a lot more work than just pastry flour.

Right. Now, aside from the gluten, the actual starches, like wheat starch works differently from other kinds of starches, and for many reasons, right one is because of the different kind of the actual texture of the flower when it's ground, the ground granules structure, right. And then there's how the how the actual structure is now the reason you can't let's say just do all rice flour is because it acts totally differently. And it will be like a rice bun or a rice noodle, which is not what people are looking for correct.

pletely different you know, and I'll walk through there and get up and speak. So we have corn starch, which really acts is when you think about flour, and its performance in a recipe. It's a filler, you know, it really is the body of the body of the recipe in a baking formula. And then you have rice flowers that are going to provide more of a textural difference because cornstarch is just too fluffy. And then the other ingredients are really for elasticity purposes, you know, how do you bind because that's what flour does as well It binds and it will be able to within the baking process, how steam and everything works hold its shape. And so that's really how the formula goes

to what are the what are the other ones you have cornstarch you have rice, what else you got?

We've got tapioca potato starch, Xantham Gum and milk powder, which is another thing that is really important to point out it adds tenderness, a lot of other gluten free flowers they have eliminated dairy because they want to it's a larger market when you do dairy free gluten free everything free you know but for for us when we decided this if I took out the milk powder, it was gonna be less performing

flour and it's no solids right? So still no lactose in it.

No there is it's a skim milk powder you know and it's very crucial to the baking process it will create a tender crumb

now look proteins are awesome. Yeah, they really are. But okay, so you have the potato which swells fast right? Yes. And then you had was the other one is tapioca. Milk is weird ever quick was straight to

have yogurt. so surreal. It is but it does give that showing

join. Yeah, for joining. Yeah, it's just no joke.

No joke. I mean, have you ever had that? Brazilian cheese bread?

No, I've had Portuguese like corn cheese bread like bro.

No, it's blanking out what it's called. But it's this. It's made with the cassava tapioca stuff. And it's delicious. But it's fried. And it's all chewy inside. Yeah,

no, it's just good. I used to have to when I was doing work on puft stuff. You know, years ago for the blog. I was doing a lot of tapioca doses when they're a pain especially like they're just like really a pain.

They're really pain because you also have to heat them up and then you're working with like Galop and then then

well so heating up you bring a good point. So when you're doing when you're doing a dough that doesn't have any gluten in it. I mean, one of the things that you know we always used to do is just pre cooked some of the starch because you know, when you're working without the gluten things tend to be kind of like a sandy agglomeration of things. They don't tend to dough up on you. They just don't so like the question is do you have some pre cooked in here as well without telling me like how it works? Or is it were you able to do it without any pre cooked

no pre cut because one of the things that was difficult with this process because that When we developed the French Laundry, you know, French Laundry really sourced from smaller, you know, farmers, just our resources are more, you know, local. And for us to go out to a market and provide nationally, we really needed to start digging into resources that we could find large volumes for. And so pre pre cooked starches, it's, we don't work with them

now because they're easier to work with right they are easier to work with

and they're a little more stable however the volume of it it's just not there.

Now I see you have one here called wholesome that says it's dairy free is a dairy free product, what do you have in in to make up for the dairy and that sucker?

So the wholesome flower is actually our first response back to the public people are really looking for non GMO and what we found was it's really in the category there missing whole wheat flour and so this is a solution for the whole wheat flour nutrient dense performing so no milk powder but what we did add was ground flax seeds and so flax seeds you know with little bit more fat it adds a little texture and also creates that I guess textural difference in the quick breads and pastries. It does absorb a little bit more water like whole wheat flour does so have Lexi

likes to absorb water that's that's for sure. Yeah, yeah flaxseed. Did a while man I don't want to get into flexing I mean presumably it's not like a lot a lot of flaxseed right?

No but it definitely has its share so it has equal parts of fiber as whole wheat and then also has Omega fatty acids contribute via flax seeds and rice bran as well.

Did you know that some people like soaking grind up flax seeds and eat that gummy pulpy stuff on purpose just like as is didn't know that.

So I was going through a week of like healthy after after eating too much and I was gonna grind up some I was like, Oh, I was just throwing flax seeds into my smoothie. Don't ever do any more than two tablespoons.

It's just a freaking like it's a freaking gummy nightmare. I mean it's it's a natural Yes, yes. Fiber hydrocolloid saw great and stuff was just man that is some of so you know, how many how many? How many flowers you have in the line. Now you have.

So we have the copper copper original line. So it has a pancake waffle pizza, chocolate brownie, and then our wholesome line which is actually in stores now at William Sonoma. It is we're going to look to extend it and release two other products behind it. Okay,

now, you just came last night from Del Posto. Mark Ladner is a big fan of being able to make all of his pastas gluten free. He used his cup for cup. Which one does he use? The OG? Yes,

the OG? Yeah,

he's the OG stuff. Now he actually tasted Well, last night on all the pastas. Right.

It was amazing. And I you know, I had heard about that poster about a year and a half and just all of the oppressive receive with the gluten free pastas. You know, I've had an odd chance to meet Mark. And, you know, I ran into you guys last weekend out of you know, coincidence,

by the way, we judged a pie. I think we talked about it, we judge a we judge we didn't talk about it. So stash and I went out to UCLA and we were judging a not a pie eating contest, pie making contest, right pie making contests to people. We're not gonna I'm not gonna say anything positive or negative about the pies. Because you know, just in case, just in case, they either like Scrooge does like school years over these these kids that are like freshman sophomores that they're not listening to that they don't know. But like, so we had to eat like something like 22 pies and 2220 22 pies, you know, and you know, thankfully, like you can have gluten if you happen to have created that like the one kind of gluten free like you know, replacement flour, but you actually can consume the gluten. So we were eating these pies. And for some reason, we didn't like the like the bet like one of the best pie crests there. Like I don't know, like I was my face was buried and I don't know what the hell happened but you know, you had advocated for I

stuck up for them. I totally did. And I got chewed out but it was totally you're totally right.

And then later you were like, I can't believe and I was like why? And then Miss Sasha never gonna freakin let me forget the fact that I let first of all, here's what happened. Like, okay, okay, okay, okay, so they have this class what's the name of the class at UCLA? Do you remember?

Why I know the event was the food and science but I don't know what the name of the class yes Professor

robot out there. Yeah, she has a class and she teaches it. And so you know, one of the things she does is she you know, you're supposed to like learn some science like come up with an experiment and it's based around making apple pie right it's

great. It gets the kids you know really excited about making pies. First time diving into it.

Yeah, but all of these freaking kids, like not enough salt in the crust. Oh my Jesus. Not enough salt in the crust. People when you make pie, put salt in the freaking Christ. I was like, how much unsalted Like crusted, you have to eat because I think like it's like, I think this is I was yelling at someone else like all the chefs we were talking about before all the chefs like naming us unsalted butter, right until the better man. But the problem is, is then like people who like maybe like they use a recipe that was written for salt, but they don't taste the crust or whatever, it doesn't have any salt in it.

I really think someone has to publish an article about how a chef's pinch technically is, I think about a tablespoon, even if you think about it. And that's why people always when they say a pinch, they take maybe half a teaspoon, and they they throw it in.

See, that's the thing, people just need a taste to sum that thing and see whether or not like it tastes good. People don't know. Here's another thing, like, as any of you know, like that, I read that book recently. Sugar, salt, fat, and I have some huge issues with that book, huge issues with that book, written by Moss, right? Because one of the things is, he's like, do you know that? Do you know that corporations try to make their food taste good? Don't like, what what am I what my point is, is that especially I think he falls flat and the anti salt stuff, because you cannot make decent baked goods or decent ice creams without salt. And like people don't know how much salt is in a decent dough. Like when I was growing up, Biggie told me there's a there's a famous bread book writer used to cook at one of the schools and was one of the bakeries out in San Francisco. I forget his name. He came out with a book maybe four years ago, and he says over the past maybe even 12 to 15 years, like salt levels have gone up in all of the artisan breads, at least in the West Coast. Because I used to you know, do like maybe like a percent and a half people closer to 2% on bread. Yeah, dry weight basis, dry weight Bay flour weight basis, you know, and so, you know, I'm still you know, back at Weasley one and a half. You don't need that much in a pie crust but something solid? Well, you

have to think about you know, flavors, is it same thing as composing music. If you were to only use one note, how flat would that be. But if you add different beats to it, it's really going to accent like accentuate the sound of it and really focus. And then same thing with flavor. So I actually had a Dell post. So this great. It was a dried apricot sorbet. And he had he had dusted it with a little salt on top. And it just brightens everything. So you really need that offset flavor to really highlight the dish. Yeah,

like unless unless you have salt sensitive hypertension, like salts, your good buddy for flavor, you know what I mean? So anyway, so like they under salted, they're crushed. They undercooked their crust in general, right?

They did. But you know, I will have to say it was a really fair stab at everything. Oh,

yeah. But anyway, so what happened is this, the ACA started to tell the grandma story. So like,

I've routed for you guys, I just want to let you know. Yeah. So

here's what happens. So this one just one crew was working on. On cooking the apples that was their stick the thickness of the apple slice. Yeah, yeah, cooking with calipers was the name of their there. They're sticking the jig there, right. And so they're like, Okay, so they, they're like, well, our project wasn't about the crust. So for the crust, I just did grandma's crust. I call my grandma like a real assets. It's a real live grandma. Is this some sort of bull crap? You're trying to touch him? He's like, No, it's a real live grandma. And I had the crust. I was like, Dan, if that crust ain't good, like that's the crust I want to eat because they had like they'd coated the top right it had a little bit of sugar they crusted it was beautiful. Like it was cooked all the way through. It was actually flaky. It was like,

I think that was the only pie gave a five out of five went on the chart that we had. Where you're like, would you give this to someone with no like questions asked. I said the pycroft, yes. Yeah,

those guys got hosed. They got nothing they got they got ripped buddy. Dude, they didn't even they got honorable nothing. They got hosed. Mainly because I was sitting there trying to sift through my freaking papers when it was going on and like we were confused over you know which team was I'm sorry, grandma's pie people cooking with calipers. My fault, my fault, my fault. All right. So let's go on to a quick question we had last week from a reader about gluten free Nigel Olsson wrote in Hey Dave and mustache because he didn't know you. I love your show have been listeners since day one here in Napier, New Zealand, North Island East Coast right by the Pacific Ocean. I've been an avid follower of your work. You guys seemed the logical people to ask Could you help me come up with a gluten free issue? I guess me solution solution right? Solution. I plan on making peripherals cream profs eclairs that sort of thing for sale our local farmers market. I'd like to have a gluten free option available but I'm not sure what flour alternative would have the gluten type strength to sustain the shoe pastries expansion during baking. Now shoe pastry interesting because it's pre cooked, right? And so you get to you get to mess around a lot more with stuff with the shoe pastry than you would otherwise right. Are you in New Zealand?

No, we're not. But you know what really works with the shoe pastry is if you use a blend of different rice flowers, so you're gonna have to use a blend of brown rice and also white glutinous rice to kind of get that stickied No, I would say probably

the same thing though like like cook butter and then beat the egg

blenden near rice flours, I would probably test around 50% of both white and brown rice and then and use it as weight with a parachute pastry recipe that's what I would say

and it's going to be okay it's not going to have that weird like look see through rice thing

it will but you know, I'm just thinking halftime I had without going into, you know, the formulation of kefir cup too heavily if if it is just for pastry flour, I have seen rice flour blends work well because you're able to cook it and then it it has enough of that starch quality will roll into a ball. And because there is enough steam, it will steam up and you you want that hollow center so I would say rice flour would be the best bet for the easiest you know you don't try it out. But

I'm sure that like people who write into the show they don't want easy if you're going to do difficult with your stuff work well on a shoot pastry application.

Absolutely. Actually, if you look up cut for cup, she pastry people have done several different variations of recipes using this.

Right. So be yourself not New Zealand.

No, sorry.

No. Well anywho so yes, it can be done and what and the you know, one of the things that you like the benefit, the benefits you have is that one of the more difficult things I'm told about working with, you know, non wheat flowers is the is the fact that the DOS don't cohere so well, but because you're going to cook the crap out of beforehand, you win.

Yeah, I think choux pastry will be it's going to be an easier one to figure out with rice flour is definitely

what would you add to it to have it not be so rice? See?

That's the thing. Yeah, you're right. You know, I would definitely add a little bit of cornstarch to give it more of that filler. You know, but you're gonna need the most of it as the body is gonna be the rice.

Now, when people are doing this stuff at home, do they try to add stuff that's got like little more that nuttiness, right? But then then what do they add? They add like buckwheat or something. But buckwheat doesn't act right? Right?

No buckwheat doesn't act right? You know, what I like to do a lot too, is to toast the flower, you really are able to taste that that nutty flavor from it.

Yeah, so dope and a little bit of the corn, but he's not going to need any other stuff like tapeo he's not gonna need that stuff.

Now, just because you're going to cook the starches, and it's going to be already such a hard like, glob, you know, you're gonna you're gonna be able to get that without having to use tapioca potato, anything else that's going to cause it to retract,

right? Yeah, potatoes super swell. The now the, the other thing is for the, for the rice flowers, you can just get brown rice flour.

The so this is the difficult part. When it comes to gluten free flowers or flowers in general, there are so many different variations of one type of brown rice, you know, you could get pregelatinized you can get certain different grains, you know, the, the starch structure, you know, from crop to crop a will change, you know, and so, you that's, that's what's going to be really difficult sourcing, you know, and it's going to be it's hard for me to say like one specific is going to be better than the other right now.

Right? When also like, you know, for instance, like not harping on them, but like Bob's Red Mill's like like their their rice flour. I think I've had a package that once and that feels totally different from the stuff I buy, you know, in Chinatown, which is like a powder. It's almost like rice. It's almost like starch and so powdery.

Well what I noticed is so that was one of the flowers that we tested with coffeecup originally and the Asian flowers, they go through a different process. So they soak the grains and then they mill it so that really produces a definitely a different flower that has a lot more moisture content and it performs completely differently from like American starches because we don't go through that process here.

Yeah, because also like I've had terrible luck with rice, like grinding your own rice, but oh my god, it's horrible. Like it's actually do it. I try it. Yeah, like back when I was you know back when I you know people you know, whatever. I try anything once but like grinding that stuff. It's just like it's like little pellets nightmares. You know what I mean? Like it doesn't? It's not I've actually haven't any good luck milling my own wheat flour either. I mean, I have a I have a you know, a grain mill, but it's I don't really like it very much. And like the really coarse the really coarse. like whole wheat. It's like, it's like, just killer.

Like yeah, you need that me you need that intense equipment to be able to support that grind.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, I love whole wheat flour, but I'm not the stuff that I make. No offense. No offense to me. Way too. Jack is telling me we're already host as we're done. We're already hosed. Oh, man, so All right, well, listen. We were pre taped this week. So I swear, Rob, next week, I will talk to you like fiddleheads firms. Yes. Did you know this is very strange bacilli. fiddlehead Fern that we eat is ostrich ferns. Right? So we don't eat brackin although apparently in Asia, many people eat brackin and people have eaten brackin in in the US for millennia, you know, Native Americans meeting Brett bracket different kind of firm does, like don't care. But like the, but the fact of matter is, is that brackin has some well known as some well known carcinogens in it like the most well known as I can't pronounce it, but it's like toquilla, aside from something like this, right. And in fact, some people think that this mate like consumption, high consumption of Bracken Fern, might be the reason why there is everyone's looking to figure out why more people get us off that deal and stomach cancer in Korea, let's say or, you know, places around there. And so a lot of you know, some people have pegged it on like, the inordinate amount of kimchi that's consumed. But then some people were like, Hey, how about the brackin? Like, we all know that brackin, you know, has cancer causing agents in it, but I don't think

it's that readily eaten that much. And high volume would affect it? I don't know. Because I heard it was because like the stomach cancer, it was a lot to do with alcohol consumption, you think? Yeah, because I think it's the population 80% aren't able to consume. They don't have the enzyme to break down alcohol and so they still consume it. And that's also contributing to the high rate

right? So the paint the pain about it is right that there you get two copies of the gene, right? So like most Caucasian stuff, folks, like myself have two copies of the stuff that you know, for the alcohol dehydrogenase and can break down and alcohol like nobody's business, right? Then you have like a whole, you know, a whole like Asian consort of people who have no copies. They're the ones that are gonna go bright red. Yeah. And they're drinking, right. And then you have people who have one copy that don't go bright red does the research at Red, they don't go bright red, so they consume alcohol, but they're more likely to get damaged like yeah, and in cancers and stuff. So it's like that middle ground where you have one copy, where it's like danger Ville,

I wonder if it's the same because also the Irish population also because it's the dilation of your capillaries, where that's why you're turning red. But I wonder if it affects different cultures as well.

I don't know. I don't know. But I will try to research more of the brackin stuff, but the ostrich firms strangely, just in the past 10 years people have had these weird food poisonings happen from undercooked fiddleheads real ones ostrich ferns, but nobody knows why. And so the good news Rob is is is that if you're gonna get poisoned, it's not a cancer thing you would have gotten poison within about 12 hours but so you're good but yet we people do recommend that you cook your fiddleheads like overcook them in fact like way over cooked but I'm going to look into it more and I have a lot more information I can get to you next week on and and unfortunately I thought we would have time to get to get Ken and grammar see because he had a chewy crust problem with his pizzas. And we could talk about that because I think you know, one of the issues I think people you know, like when I was growing up everyone all they worried about with with flour was protein content, right? No one was worried about the way it was milled milling fractions of it and like how the hydration is affected by how the flower is milled. But anyway, we're gonna have two important

for bread flour, but you know, it's a quick solution go by cup for cup pizza

booming with that we'll have to leave it cooking issues.

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