Hello, everybody, and welcome to a brand new series on heritage radio network called the culinary call sheet where we give a peek into the back kitchen of culinary media. I'm your host, April Jones,

and I'm your co host, Darren bresnitz. Part of why we started the show was to offer an unofficial mentorship for anyone who's interested in learning about all aspects of food and video, whether that's TV, social media online, or just something you want to do for fun.

Absolutely what was once niche or a little silly, as I'm sure you remember, Darren, when we started out, this man has now become such a massive playing field for so many creatives using food as the medium.

It's something that has driven us professionally and personally, for so many years. What excites me the most about this show is that we're going to sit down with some of the industry leaders to hear how they made it and what drew them into this industry.

With 20 years in the culinary production game ourselves. We're hoping we can give through these conversations an insider's view into personal stories from the field, as well as an in depth behind the scenes look into some of the most popular food programming. In today's evolving culinary media landscape.

We'll be covering everything from how to style your food, to how to license IP, to developing your own ideas, and some tips from the masters of how to host your own show.

Yeah, it's a little bit of conversation, how to and how do you do the things that you do in color media, which I'm so excited about? I love so many of the guests that are coming on this season. We have talent from Food Network from Vice media eater refinery 29,

we've met some of the best people in the world both in front of and behind the camera. And we're bringing them all together to share their stories, their delicious adventure and their unique journey into this crazy world.

So to be the first to hear our episodes when they launched this fall, go to wherever podcasts are streaming and hit subscribe and make sure to give us a follow at the Culinary call sheet on Instagram.

Today's program has been brought to you by white oak pastures a five generation Georgia based beef and poultry farm determined to conduct business in an honorable manner. For more information visit White Oak pastures.com This is

Michael Harland Terkel hosts of the food scene. You're listening to heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn, if you'd like this program, visit heritage radio network.org for 1000s More

Hello, and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking dishes coming to you live from Roberta's pizzeria in Bushwick on the heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 joined not with Natasha hammer Lopez she's not doing well today so instead not as a not as a consolation prize but you know in your own rights and as awesome folks we have a Peter Kim and Emma both from the Museum of food and drink you know so

a by the way, I need to provide a visual for what we just saw when when Dave does that intro thing. He has like sweat beating on his forehead and do you know that scene in Total Recall when Arnold Schwarzenegger goes out on Mars and his eyes start like bugging out

I was gonna hope I got to be quiet Hill I'm just get to be honest for a second with his eyes bugging me kwacha was the guy that I'm like in buried in someone else's chest. I thought.

No, no, no, this is this is more like your eyes are bugging out like Arnold Schwarzenegger and Total Recall. But that's the image that I saw. When you were doing that opening thing.

Do you know I've used that reference. Like countless dozens of times teaching Soviet and vacuum work like the whenever like I tried to talk about what happens to a piece of meat when you put it in a vacuum machine and it's warm, for instance, close to body temperature, even room temperature. I always try to bring up the total recall where Schwarzenegger's eyes are puffing up. Can you remember the noises he was making? He's going back and forth. It's like halfway between a person and a pig. And it sounds very unlikely. The Schwarzenegger that we all know and love, by the way, had a weird Schwarzenegger dream. Like nights ago, I was hanging out with him. And when I was totally surprised he in the dream also uses all of his own catchphrases. Like at random just random times. He would just say get to the choppa like randomly, so we're available I wonder in real life whether he does that or not.

But I think my favorite source of Schwarzenegger quotes is from Kindergarten Cop.

Oh, not a tumor.

Yeah, not a tumor. I can't remember else there's

that mean? That's the best one not tumor. Who is your daddy? What does he do? That's not a good one. Who is your daddy? What does he do? Alright. Join in the engineering booth by Jack is Lee and white white. What's your last name?

White burns,

white burns, like whenever I hear burns, I think Mr. Burns you get that a lot. If you don't look like him, I don't know why I would think of that.

Mo can do a great Mr. Burns impression actually,

I wouldn't say the whole impression more just the kind of shutter.

Yeah. I see that. Alright, so why don't we got a caller right out the gate. All right call right out the gate you're on the air.

Hey, what's up? How you doing? All right. I got a question about backfill firm for salami curing. I'm using I think frm. I started with Paul's Dean's book, I think he recommends frm 52. I don't recall off the top of my head. But basically, as you I'm sure I already know, it calls for like a 12 or so hour incubation period. Right now what I'm doing is I actually have a light bulb on a timer that I close in my oven door with all the Salome's that goes on like X amount of minutes per hour. I keep between 80 and 100. But my question is, is there any reason I can't put it in a water bath sealed up to do that? Or does it need to kind of have that drying out as well?

Well, it's not just a drying out is that? Hmm, I've never had anyone asked me that before. I mean, you're trying to you want the pH to drop now the lacto the lactic acid bacteria or anaerobic so you shouldn't need the oxygen. Maybe the thing is to stop the ox maybe the thing is to stop the exterior bacteria that are not that are aerobic from growing during the initial period of drying out, you know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, I

was worried about the moist environment inside the bag somehow being a safety issue. But I don't know, if it'd be that much different than being inside the dry oven or hanging in a warm box or something?

Well, I mean, remember, it's, it's more it's inside the bag is not only is it you know, not drying. And remember, your humidity at the beginning of this stuff is super high anyway, you know what I'm saying? Like so at the beginning, you know, if especially if you're doing it like in a converted fridge thing, your humidities are I mean, it's been it's been years since I've looked up the numbers, but your humidity is are in the 90s when you're doing your initial fermentation, but if you put it in a bag, you've shifted it from the exterior being an aerobic environment to an anaerobic environment. And I don't know, I mean, you know, you might be putting yourself at risk for various things that way. But I mean,

suspended over the water on our back. Oh, that leads to hover with a towel, right?

I mean, that would definitely work we'd be putting yourself in in 100% humidity environment now whether or not that's a problem or not? I don't know. I mean, like it look, I'll tell you what, Peter, next week, we're going out to hang out in medicine. That's right, aren't we the next week? Are we going to meet with the curing folks in medicine when we're out there? Yeah, I'll ask him about I asked them when I see them. You know, maybe they have some experience. I mean, obviously, I've never heard of Outlook. Obviously, there are some lactic acid, things that take place entirely aerobic ly underwater. I eat almost every pickle and every sauerkraut. Yeah. Why not? Do why not do it in a bag. For sausages. I frankly, I don't

know what I'm doing is working. But I just figured it out as a matter of convenience and absolutely stable temperature for a very specific amount of time. I just figured, you know, I just got the circular, I'm trying to use it for every stinking thing I can think of as you as you know how it goes. Yeah,

I mean, if you bag it, you're definitely going to get blow off in that time. Because, you know, and that's another interesting point is that, of course you putting you're putting a culture in it. So I don't know. I mean, I've had very, very, very unpleasant fermentations take place in vacuum bags, you know, in the mid to in the low 50s Celsius, overnight, like hyper unpleasant smells in in, specifically in pork. So you know, we used to hold pork shoulders, in fat. And I remember because fat, fat you know, is not obviously it's thicker than water so it doesn't circulate as well. It's also not as good of a conductor doesn't have his highest specific heat so it doesn't, you know, put as much energy out so if you circulate fat, you have to be really super careful that you get really good circulation all the way around. And I had some stagnant points in my fat bath that I had these pork shoulders in. And not only that the pork shoulders were touching each other in a couple places. And so it was total not only a dead spot, but you had something that was roughly the size of a Chevy engine that was trying to get warm. And then you know couple that with the fact that even when was regulating temperature, right? It was only 57 which is just a mirror like like six degrees above or seven degrees above like kind of growth for this then so yeah, I had a 10 degree temperature delta over the over the, you know, the span of this bath. And the next day I walked in, it was like someone had taken like, like a really bad blue cheese and just, you know, put it into a pressure washer and spray the whole room with me it stank to high heaven. And while I love the smell of blue cheese, with the rare exception of some of the Chinese hand that I had once and the and I think they're really good like Colonel nuisance hams and blue cheese is not usually a note you're shooting for in meat. And when it when it when it commingles with like that slight kind of putrescent that you get out of some fermentations. Like, unless you're eating Scandinavian fish, I'm talking to you so strongly not to the haka, which we all know did not smell that rotten from last week. I think you can. I mean, I know for a fact that unpleasant things happen in that. But if you're using a startup culture, I don't know, I'd have to just talk to some, some people who have more than theoretical ideas about it. You know what I mean?

Yeah, man, I'd love it. If you get to get to the bottom of that for me. That'd be awesome. Sure, no problem. And also that email about Turkey port shadows for me too. So I hope you guys get the chance to address that today. That'd be sweet.

Did that just come in because mustaches. Like I say she's not she's not here. So I didn't get there. Apparently, I had three questions. But from this past couple of days, but I didn't get you wanted to tell me the question now.

Wow, I was already told only one question for color. I will I will tell you anyway, Kenji. You know, Kennedy, he had a experiment he did where he and I did this with a chicken that was a turkey and I'll make it brief. Basically, break it down. Brian, the brass, pound him out, grind all the dark money into sausage, roll it up into a perfect torpedo, you know, with saran wrap, and then wrap it in the skin, Sue eat it or whatever. And then, and then deep fry the whole thing and then serve slices of it, which sounds amazing.

I use it all day every day. Yeah. Yeah. So

my question is that, since I'm going to be serving it at a different home other than I'm preparing it in, is it gonna suck? If I fry it at my house, and then try to rewarm it? I'm not too sure about the properties of skim that's been low tamped and then fried. If it's going to hold a crisp like, like the Korean wings do?

No, absolutely not. No, it's not gonna suck. It's just not going to be like that. I mean, first of all, but usually when I do it, I couldn't remember exactly what you do. Usually, I put the dark meat around the outside because it's the most, then you don't even need to Brian the white usually. I mean, I do the opposite. Look, when you think about it, right? From a technical standpoint, you want the dark meat to cook to a higher temperature than the white meat, right? I mean, that's just fact by about two degrees. So usually what I'll do is I'll pound out the dark. I can't remember what you said it and then I'll put the white on the inside I look I used as one of my as my standard demo mills. And I used to do like a what's it called turducken this way, right? The way that you're describing would just get on the outside but one of my standard demos was to bone out a whole chicken. Put the breast in the center pound out the dark meat. Wrap it in the skin with meat glue rolling into and by the way, there's a skill and an art to doing torsions with plastic wrap. And you know, I learned it from Niels Norton and I'm not saying that like it's a good way to learn but cooking issues in the low tech primer cooking issues.com Which we're not updating anymore but still exists has a like a like a good visual thing on how to rap a nice stiff torsional which you should by the way sink that's how you know you've done it right if the sucker floats

on the tongue as expect that out because my eyes are a little sketchy. I keep going back and forth between the freezer just to keep everything where it's supposed to be you know,

if you use the look Mills Noren mate will make any any anything into a tube I've seen him make the least tube like things into tubes. And so you know, I learned his technique it's really good and then aurvey also from the French culinary his magical secret sauce was he would after you put the normally what would be the last wrap of plastic around the tour shown he would do one more thin layer of plastic and get this with a couple of butter knives rolled into it the butter knives just sink the torch on straight to the bottom of the circulator. Which is a sweet trick sweet trick now but back to your your other thing super crispy skin either happens from long frying right like double frying typically in in the Korean thing usually in the presence of extra starchy crap that can because it's all the water management like crispy skin is all about managing the water right so in some of the in like the what I think is like the super awesome Korean drums strict stick technique because really I could give a rat's behind about the rest of the rest of it like for me like that, like old style like whatever you want to call it. killshot style bonchon style whatever you want to call it. You know Peter woody like to call which style do you would you don't care. He's what speak Korean or whatever. But the one the one that one that forms like a maraca with the meat, like that's about like setting the skin at the right temperature, the meat kind of drifts away from the skin which maintains this thing and then you have awesome water balance so and then they put it with that kind of sugary crap that also helps it keep kind of crunchy because it's like it's basically like, you know, a candy shell of awesomeness. I think that's that's fantastic. But in a low temperature environment where you've meat glued the skin to it, and you're getting all of your texture off the final fry. It's never going to be that crispy unless you batter it and deep fried. Now if you battered and deep fry it, then you might have some good luck but you're still you're then you're relying on the fact that you have a thick crust to deal with the moisture management problem because when you're doing low temp, you're never overcooking the meat. Because you're never overcooking the meat. You're always having something moist in contact with the skin and so it never lasts that long. However, like these tour shots can be really good even as a cold prep for a buffet and the skin looks nice because you stare at it once and I did that once for you know my wife had to throw a baby shower for someone and I wasn't allowed to be there kind of a dude and apparently like some people like they don't like dudes that their baby shower.

I wouldn't complain if you ever been to a baby shower and on

a regular good well, so anyway, so like she didn't want to do much cooking and I wasn't allowed to be there to finish stuff off. So I did a bunch of cold prep with chicken and turkey, which is fantastic. Because no one's used to having a cold prep that doesn't suck.

Oh, you're right. I'll agree with that. Yeah,

you're actually one of the one way I do roast chicken at home is I sort of dry out the chicken over a few different days for two or three days. So it's just like mummy like appearance. Yeah, actually then when it's super dry, it looks almost desiccated, then I roast it and you get a super crispy skin.

And that's a good point. Like when I do low temperature on turkey for Thanksgiving, I'll do the low temperature and then I'll just leave it uncovered in the in the fridge for a while to flash off. And if you pull it out of the tour, Shawn, when it's hot, you'll get more flash off on the skin and you're liable to get crispier skin anyway, but I don't think you're ever going to make it to Korean fried chicken lamb with that?

Well, no, I was just using that as an example. But I mean, I could always just low tap it and then refrigerate it and then finish it in like a 500 degree oven like right, by me. I'm sure I get some oven space, they have like three

ovens. Oh, that's that's always a good call. That's always a good call. Because then you're doing what I always call a low temperature cooking for insurance purposes, meaning the suckers cook through so you don't need to worry about it's going to get kind of mildly warm in the middle. So nothing really matters. And then you cook it like you're going to normally cook it in somebody's crappy oven, but you no longer have to sweat it because the insides already cooked. I mean, that's genius move that's like then then you don't have to like ask them or anything fancy. You don't have to fry. You don't have to look like you're high maintenance. You just throw it in their oven it comes out there like Mark came I cook like this because well because you're not thinking straight. That's why you can cook like this.

I'll be the hero.

Exactly here Thanksgiving. That's what I like to hear

they have a little defect that on the one hand, you are no longer a high maintenance guest. On the other hand, you're telling them the host the host, they're not thinking straight. So well that's only if they ask

it's only if they ask oil everybody out of the kitchen. Yeah, now you know what the thing is also, like if you're bringing something kind of like that major to the to the event like their seating like their seating anything to you, you know what I'm saying? Like, they're like, oh, make some science and then you're gonna have like the big old Turkey thing. It's like, Look, you get to save basically whatever you want. But it still is mega cool to walk in there and not mess with the fact that they are still rushing around to get their mashed potatoes done, walk into the kitchen for about 25 seconds, throw the thing in and come back like, like 35 minutes later and pull out something delicious. You don't even have to talk about it. You know what I mean? It's just like, yeah, you dropped the mic the tape at that business idea I had check this out. I'm never gonna do this, as someone do this. Here's what I want to do someone do this. I want to make disposable like really like like inexpensive, recyclable, maybe disposable microphone things with just a simple accelerometer in it. You just keep them in your pocket. And they have a little speaker in them, right? And then when you do something, you just do you pull it out of your pocket, no one knows it's there. You drop it, and it goes, we walk away from it. And you buy like a pack of five of these like drop the mics and then you know you'll always have one with you for when it's time to drop the mic and walk away.

I think I hear your new Kickstarter this was

someone you know look at this like before, it's like look, I've just handed someone like like a small like a wheelbarrow full of money just like send us something that's all I'm saying.

Here's the thing Dave in order to properly pitch the idea you need to have the mic drop at the end of your pitch

well that's what I'm saying. So as soon as the time to go make someone who has the time to go make the mic you know I'm saying like they should just make it and I'm just saying send us something that's all you know, I'm gonna generous dude I'm not I don't have time to it's not it's not in my it's not in my you know, the range of things that we work on Booker index, I can't really devote the time to it that it deserves that it merits Yeah, yeah. Anyway, good luck with the turkey.

Yeah, thanks for your help, guys.

Cool.

I got another caller.

Sweet caller you're on the air.

Hey, Dave, how you doing? I'm

doing all right, what's up, um,

I work at a manufacturing company. And recently they tasked me with designing like a full service kitchen. For all the guys that work on our shop floor suite and, and the owner of the company, I presented my initial layout to him and he thought it was great. I'm actually making use of some Suvi machines and stuff. And but he wants me to reuse some old equipment that we have lying around, which makes complete sense. He's got like two or 333 compartment sinks that he wants to use for cvwd. Right? I told him just use polycarbonate bends because I know they're cheap and it's versatile. You can stow them and stuff. I was just curious, how would you like how would you mount the controllers two or three comp sank and have like one per compartment and plus you got like, like water baths that are sharing lino walls in the sink and stuff like transmitting heat between different temperature baths? Like, what are your thoughts on that? I mean, his thought is that you can actually drain the thing when you're done with your CV, and you're not dumping out a big bin of water and all that.

Sure. Well, I mean, like, okay, so Gerard Philip Preston from Poly Science built one to build something very much like that for Jarrard bedtime from cuisine solutions. And and he loves it right. So you know, it's obviously feasible. The thing is, you're going to be dealing typically with a sink, you're going to be dealing with a much larger water, water situation than you would be with a with a regular circulator, which tops out at around, so regular 1000 watt heater and a circulator tops out at around 28 liters worth of water. So you need to measure kind of how much your your big your sink is, and kind of figure from there, how much power you're going to need. Secondly, it a lot depends on how you're going to mount the heating head. So some people have done it, where they mount, they like mount a standard circulator, into a into a sink. And if you're going to do that, what you have to be careful of is that you get full circulation from top to bottom, right. So a lot of people just worry about, you know, is the pump above the water and is the heater above the water, but that is you, because think about it this way, this pump typically circulates straight out. And cold, colder water tends to sink. So if you have something of circulating over the top, you can have stagnation at the bottom and all the cooler water is flowing into the bottom. So you're never heating all the way down to the bottom of your tank, especially if you have product in there. So typically, if you're going to have something if you're going to do something like let's say, Well, what kind of shop? Do you guys have metal, plastic, what do

we do, we do everything we do metal, wood, plastic, and like a ton of different things.

So you're good to go. So what you would I would do is like hat like well like a bracket so that you could put the circulator pump in the sink, if you need to this is the simplest way you can go much more complicated, and really internal. So you can mount a controller in a circulator. And you could like well to pump into it so that you never have to have something on the outside depends on what you want to put into it. But you know, I have seen people well brackets and then have the circulator fit in that way, if there's a problem, you're not Ribbeck, a controller that's built in out of the sink, it's less work you have to do, it's a little more not as built in. So it's a little bit bigger the pain of the boat, but it's also easier to sanitize, because you can remove all the units, you don't have to worry about a flow through pump. Now, back to the sink itself, usually in a depends on what kind of three compartments think that you have. But most of the time, it's not like an actual partition. In other words, just a piece of metal, typically, you know, you'll have is it or is it like three things that are sunk into it and you have like a good like half three quarters of an inch lip in between the compartments.

I don't think there's an air gap. I think it's just metal and then it's just a metal divider or something wrong. I don't think it's actually like a like a U shape or anything.

Right? Well you then you could always just make if you want like an insulated metal kind of saddle that you can mount the two circulators to that'll slip over the panel. And that will provide enough insulation to stop too much crosstalk between the two and provide an easy way to drop two circulators into the sink without modifying the sink you understand what I'm saying? Like almost Yeah, and that you know that's going to be maybe the easiest way because it doesn't require any kind of actual modification of the sink unit itself. It can stay where it is and that everything else can be done in the shop. What I would recommend is putting some spray insulation on the inside under the other parts of the sink so that you're not losing too much through the bottom of the cabinets. That make sense.

Yeah, and then for evaporation just do some custom lids with a cut out for the controller.

Yeah, exactly. I wouldn't use those ping pong balls. I think they're a pain in the butt. I've never met anyone who's been like, you know what, I'm really glad I use those ping pong balls. I think like those like I think were sold as a bill of goods to chefs or something that was good. I think that's really awesome when you're doing stuff that like is really nasty with really nasty volatiles. Like if you're electroplating fantastic, but for cooking now, like like, you know, just like a modified I'd like like San lid. And you know, depending on how fancy you want to go, you can, you know, like, I've seen people make little like hinge portions of it. So you could go in and get portion by portion, you know, but the nice thing about sinks is you can drain some water, and then you can just pitch ice into it and drop the temp down. Or you can, what you should typically do is, is drain the water, let it sit for a couple minutes, add regular room temperature, tap water to it, let it sit for a couple of minutes, and then I sit down, you can do all of that under circulation, which makes it a lot more efficient.

Awesome, awesome. Well, I'm actually really stoked about it. So that's, that's really good, helpful information. I just found out too that we have like an endless supply of liquid nitrogen. So I'm gonna check with our supplier make sure it's dude grid and then go to town with that. Yeah,

you know, most of it it like most of the people who supply supply also to kind of medical places. So the product itself is all good. It's a question of the filling apparatus, and the tank they put it into is usually what the what the dealio is, but most of the time you're actually okay. Because it'd be harder for them to, you know, give you something that's ruined the not in most cases, not always, always check with them. They don't usually call it food grade, they call it medical grade. Okay. All right. Awesome. Thanks so much, super. Let us know how it works. All right. So I have another All right. Caller you're on the air.

I don't have the gun going all right.

Hey, I'm looking to try and make the duck for shadows and Romans book. And I think it calls for you know, hanging it somewhere between 50 and 60? Where the heck would you do that in New York apartment, the fridge is going to be way too cold. I feel like the rest of my apartments way too hot. Can I can I try it either way? Or what would you suggest?

What do you have access to? Right? What do you have access to equipment wise

circulator? I think that's kind of the main thing. But yeah, just in terms of the hanging like,

Okay, well, I don't actually, frankly, know how, how, what's the word I'm looking for? I don't know how sensitive it's going to be to temperature like, so you know, a lot of times what will happen when you're doing when you're hanging something is that or when you're fermenting a carrier, any anything you're doing right, is that a number of things are going on, you're drying the product out. In some cases, there's bacterial fermentation going on. But there's also a lot of enzymatic activity that's going on. And in any of those situations, you're going to be affected by both the heat and the humidity. And it can affect not only the length of time, but also the flavor that's going to come out of it, which is why American country hams, we're talking about lot of enzymatic activity in the meat along with the drying up the higher temperature products are going to have a kind of a different, you know, more robust kind of more American flavor now. So point is, you'll probably be able to get it done at a lower temperature, but it might not be the same. Also you want to you know, what humidity does he recommend? You know, what humidity does he recommend you? Do? I forget?

I don't remember? And I'm not sure if it's even noticed to be honest. Yeah.

So I mean, depending on how, you know, I mean, I feel you probably don't have the space to get a wine cooler and use it for and use it for curing meats, although it works

quite well, because by one of those little vino Trump kind of things, or Yeah,

like, you know, one of the ones that like, I have one that holds I think like, I don't know, like 1516 bottles, and I use it like, I use it. I never have that much extra, maybe it's two case, I don't know, I never have that much wine in my house. Because I don't collect like expensive wines. But I also use it to store my cheeses when they come in. Because I don't like to refrigerate my cheeses. And I'll use it for meats that I'm you know, holding up. So you could use something like that. You might be able to literally just, like throw some ice in the bottom. How long do you have to do it? How long do you have to keep it?

I think they say about a week or so maybe, maybe two,

you could build something depends on how handy you are like you could build easily build like with a Peltier a like a thermal electrical, you don't need to move that much energy out, right? So you could probably pretty easily build something that would hold the right temperature inside of like a cooler, or even something you made out of styro it's just a question of like, where you would keep it like would you like hide in a closet somewhere, but it would be you know, it wouldn't be that difficult for it wouldn't be that difficult for you to to do. I'm trying to think of a way that doesn't shock me you can easily do it if you shaft your fridge, but then you can't keep anything else. That's not really a valid solution.

I wonder if there's any commercial enterprise that you could sort of tip them tip money their way to be able to use a little corner of their like walk in or something.

The problem is is we can't put it something that they don't know that the laws are on already got a

tweet in from Elliott Papineau says, a dorm fridge with temp humidity control might be a good way to go.

Yeah, if you have the space for it, like, that's a great way to go, Elliot the like, you know, you get one of those little fridges, it's not going to hold that much. But then from October instruments.com, you can get really cheap kind of humidity and temperature control stuff and just kind of keep it up, you know, you'd be putting it in the cooling phase rather than the warming phase. So you wouldn't have a heater on it, you'd have a cooler on it. Then if you were really slick, like if you wanted to raise the temperature above ambient later, you could throw a heater into it as well. But like, yeah, that would that mean that would clearly work. If you have the space for it like to thing is dedicating a closet to it, you know, it's not going to be going on that often. So you might be able to get away with in the closets and the closets not going to get too hot. And I know that for a fact that the wine cooler because I've kept a wine cooler in a closet for you know, over a decade and it worked fine.

Yeah, I mean, I think I think the question is comes down to, how much am I going to be doing this? Am I going to get really into it, where there's something that I'm going to, you know, constantly be doing? And then it's like, oh, yeah, just find the fridge. That's no problem. But yeah, I mean, that's a good point that you can store cheeses and other stuff in it, too. That might kind of make it worth the space.

Also false coming on. So what I would do is do it like fairly close to a place maybe you can crack a whip. If you're anything like most people in New York apartments, it gets hot as heck because they have those radiators and radiators can't be adjusted. And so like you have to open your windows in the middle of winter or you like that. That's exactly the problem. Yeah. So the good news about that if you can find a place in your place that's cold enough by putting it close enough to a window like you know, in a box with some screen over it really cheaply and figure out kind of whether you like it or not, or whether this is something you're going to do and then before it gets like really hot again, then you can invest in a in a in a more permanent like dorm fridge rig, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, absolutely.

I think that's a good idea. Yeah,

always good to test the waters but, or go the other way. The other way. The only way and I've done this many times, it's just jump right the heck and spend all the cash and you're like, Well, I got to do it now. Because I've devoted all this time energy to it. I got I got to do it. Now. That's how I learned to play bass guitar. Like, oh, I've done spent the money. Of course, that was back when I couldn't afford to, like lose that kind of money. So it was like, you know, you know, it's got to be efficient gamble kind of thing. Yeah, you have to make a big enough investment in time and or, and or money that it's it's a personal failure and embarrassment if you don't actually see it through, you know,

so Dave's advice is to take a high interest loan or pawn off some very valuable, you know, family jewels, and then take it up so that the stakes are so high that you must go through with it.

Well, I mean, that's, that's, interestingly, that Peter interpreted my, my advice that way, because that's exactly what he did with the Museum of food and drink basically took an extremely, like, huge gamble and like quit a fine lawyering job with, you know, kind of good benefits and salary to start the Museum of food and drink with absolutely no guarantees, which I forever appreciate. So he did exactly, he actually did take my advice that way. And here's here's where he is today. Right? True.

Thanks so much. Really appreciate it.

All right. Thank you. Alright, well, with that, before we go to break, why don't we discuss why Peter and Emma are here? Tell me you want to talk? Yeah, sure.

I mean, I think given all the discussions of sausages and turkeys introductions, this is actually a great segue to quickly plug our upcoming event this Thursday here in New York, both had Roundtable, the future of meat, we're bringing together four panelists who represent a wide variety of views on meat eating, and whether we should eat meat, how we should produce meat in the future. We've got an older singer, or whether we should produce meat in the future. That too. Yeah, we've got Peter Singer, the eminent philosopher and author of Animal Liberation among many other publications. Another philosopher named Mark Buddha Olson, who is currently working on a volume on food ethics to be published by Oxford University Press, Isha datar, who runs a nonprofit called new harvest. They advocate for cultured meat and various varieties of so called in vitro meat and think about sort of the possibilities of meat futures. And then finally, heritages own Patrick Martens, who recently published the carnivores manifesto, and also runs Heritage Foods USA, which is a purveyor of ethically and sustainably raised meats

so and don't forget there's some schmuck monitoring the whole thing. Oh, yeah, this

guy who's sitting right next to me, Dave will be there as well. So if you are in New York or the area we would love it if you could come tickets are@meet.mu fed.org And again, it's this Thursday the 16th

meet like get together meet like the stuff meet like the

what Jack said. Yeah, um, II at that movie.org Yeah,

unfortunately, Peter is going to do the introduction, so I can't go. Peter, Peter, Peter thing are vegetarian philosopher, right because he's like, he's like he's never probably invented. Do you say Wait Is life in order saying, yeah, yeah, I used to do it. Now it's your job. But Peter Singer, interesting. Yeah, he against eating meat on the grounds that if you don't believe in racism, then you also shouldn't believe in eating meat. I mean, it boils down to like, you can't distinguish between animal suffering numbers. Suffering is the thing. You can't distinguish between the suffering of animals and of people in terms of value judgments, and then says, Well, back in the day, we used to make differences between different groups of people. And we don't do that anymore. So Bubblebum man being relatively, it's kind of utilitarian. Plus bludgeoning you with your own sensibilities kind of argument about not eating meat, it's accurate or inaccurate.

So interestingly, he doesn't argue that the suffering that animals and humans experience isn't necessarily the same, but he does argue for equal consideration of suffering for living beings. So it's not that the pain that a human might experience who knows that there's a future to be lived upon the knowledge that he or she might be killed is the same as the pain that an animal might experience. Because perhaps the level of sentience differs there. But there's still he argues, a fundamental interest in life that all living things share.

Yeah, sure. And yeah, definitely not in a not equating the two, right, the animal suffering and the human suffering, but denying us as people the right to draw lines of distinction and treatment on when we recognize suffering is occurring, right? Pretty much and then but you know, then he's interesting. He's like, you know, and they're like, clearly probably not a food dude. Just saying it's because like, in a couple of the references in the book, he's like, especially for something as you know, not important as eating the animal you can kill it. You know what I mean? Like, he almost seems in some places, it's been years since I've read it, but you know, somebody's like, we're not talking like, you know, leather shoes, I can see even more than eating it. I don't know what the guy sounds like. He probably doesn't sound like he's Australian. For one. Oh, geez. I can't do an Australian accent. Well, I just do it the same way I do. New York anyway, doesn't matter. But it should be an

interesting trick on the panel. This will be great.

Oh my god, what Patrick's factory's gonna be like me it's so delicious like so you're gonna say the whole desert Patrick depression now Peter does a Patrick impression Peter do your do your Patrick impressions?

No, he's just saying like if you go over to the steak shack you see the big line of people waiting for the hamburgers and I can tell them to stop eating meat it's just not possible

that's pretty bad. Yeah, Peters Peters got that Peters got the

stick of breaks we can squeeze in some more questions. All right, we'll come

right back with more cooking issues.

Why don't pass is the only farm in the United States that has its own USDA inspected red meat abattoir or slaughterhouse and its own USDA inspected poultry abattoir, a slaughterhouse we partner with whole foods to deliver our high quality meat and poultry from Miami, Florida, all the way to Princeton, New Jersey, one family one farm five generations 145 years of full circle return to sustainable land stewardship humane animal Stockman ship. For more information, please visit our website. White Oak pastures.com

scale one to 10 Dave How much do you love the commercial 10