Hello, everybody, and welcome to a brand new series on heritage radio network called the culinary call sheet where we give a peek into the back kitchen of culinary media. I'm your host, April Jones,

and I'm your co host, Darren bresnitz. Part of why we started the show was to offer an unofficial mentorship for anyone who's interested in learning about all aspects of food and video, whether that's TV, social media online, or just something you want to do for fun.

Absolutely what was once niche or a little silly, as I'm sure you remember, Darren, when we started out, this man has now become such a massive playing field for so many creatives using food as the medium.

It's something that has driven us professionally and personally, for so many years. What excites me the most about this show is that we're going to sit down with some of the industry leaders to hear how they made it and what drew them into this industry.

With 20 years in the culinary production game ourselves. We're hoping we can give through these conversations an insider's view into personal stories from the field, as well as an in depth behind the scenes look into some of the most popular food programming. In today's evolving culinary media landscape.

We'll be covering everything from how to style your food, to how to license IP, to developing your own ideas, and some tips from the masters of how to host your own show.

Yeah, it's a little bit of conversation, how to and how do you do the things that you do in color media, which I'm so excited about? I love so many of the guests that are coming on this season. We have talent from Food Network from Vice media eater refinery 29,

we've met some of the best people in the world both in front of and behind the camera. And we're bringing them all together to share their stories, their delicious adventure and their unique journey into this crazy world.

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Today's show is brought to you by molecular recipes.com The world's number one source for modernist recipes, techniques, ingredients and tools.

Hi, this is Joe Campanelli the host of in the drink you're listening to heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn, if you like this program visit heritage radio network.org for 1000s. Alright, should i Happy birthday

to you Happy birthday to you. Happy Birthday

Day.

Happy birthday to you.

Very nice. Very nice. Very nice. All right now before we start, thank you. I want to I get to say years young instead of years old.

I don't know when you're like 60 Yeah, probably. Yeah.

44 years young. Alright, so here's the here's the here's the question. Should I should I do this NPR style or should I start this like regular cooking issue style?

I think regular cooking issue style we can take you from the top

Welcome to Cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking, alive and reverted pizzeria in Bushwick every Tuesday on the heritage radio network from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 joined as usual witness does you know the hammer Lopez got Jack and engineering booth. Calling your questions to 718-471-8497 to one to eight. That's 718-497-2128 You liked that one better than the NPR style.

I prefer the NPR sale. Yeah, I've heard feedback from listeners that listen in the morning and so that yelling is like but when

maybe it's like he could use it as like your he he? For me. It

gets me ready for what's Yeah, um, you know,

hello. Welcome to Cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues broadcasting live out of the studios in Roberta's pizzeria Bushwick Brooklyn, on heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to 1245 calling your live questions to 718-497-2128 That's 718-497-2128 Like that one like that one better. I don't know. I don't know we can put it to a vote.

Yeah, right. Right. Listen, guys.

When you tweet at Heritage What do you at Heritage underscore

radio?

Yeah, that underscores kind of a killer I love the underscores the other one owned by the by the like the foundation? I don't think so. That is unrelated to you guys.

know who the regular heritage radio on Twitter is. But oh, that's a dead account the other heritage radio?

Was it the other heritage radio the false heritage radio

the other at Heritage radio regular has one tweet and it says it's from 2009. It says I am planning next week's syndicated old time radio show. No other tweets.

That's yeah, I was like I'm we have no bottle opener here and I'm just gonna use your table here old school because I don't have like even like a knife with me so I don't feel like a as Mr. Atia would say, you're only half a man because you don't have your knife with you. But, you know, I'm of the

so what do you do for your birthday? Yesterday?

I worked. I worked. I ate leftovers and I fell asleep. Like that. No, I was gonna go out to the bar and hang but I you know, looked like people were there for you know, they were they were there for they were eating dinner at Sun. Anyway. So the point that yes, whatever, like, you know, birthdays when once you you know, once you're, you know my age again, birthday is fun. It's nice. You know, I cooked a big meal on on Sunday, because a birthday isn't a Monday, Monday birthdays like we can do on a Monday birthday. Everyone's got to work, you know, I'm saying anyways, but you gotta tandoor. Oh, yeah, so big news for well, so next week is Easter. And so, of course, what do you when you're going to cook Easter dinner? What do you do? You buy a tandoor. So I drove to plus also, I've mentioned before, I'm going to do a big outdoor kitchen, but I've really been kind of researching kind of what I'm going to do, I'm going to build a an old school bread oven, I considered maybe buying a bread oven, and then it's putting it in, but I think I'm just gonna actually build it from scratch. But the problem is, is that when you're pouring the concrete and doing all this, you have like days and days where it's gonna take a long time, it's gonna take probably the better part of this season for me to actually be able to build the bread oven if I'm only working, you know, on, you know, every other weekend or something to do it. So it's gonna take a while. So, what can I do right now, I can just get a tandoor and you can buy for not that much means expensive, but not that much money just a completely built in hand or they build the tandoor liner, you know, with whatever hairy crap they put into the clay, the clay, they in Delhi, they put it inside of a stainless steel trashcan fundamentally, and then they put refractory cement around it. They give you some skewers, a little bread, Cushing, Johan nonwork, right. Yep. With the bread cushion. So they give you a little bread cushion. And you're ready to go. So you know, I'm going to be doing I'm going to do I gotta call Patrick Martin's I know. Yeah. Listen, people's if you need lamb for Easter, which I'm sure you do, there is still time to go to heritage meats and purchase some of their lamps. Are you familiar with the lamb and heritage meat? Jack? I know you're very

good. Yeah. Anyways, Tunis lamb if I'm not mistaken, really.

From from Tunisia, I would guess. Probably those guys know from lamb anyway. So the point being, I'm going to try and I'm gonna try and like sneak some lamb from Patrick and I'm going to do I'm going to do Mediterranean flavors. Tender cooking. What do you mean? That's good. Do you like you like kabobs of lamb? Really? You've had them and don't like them? Yeah. Why the hell?

Although I had from a food check last night.

Is that Is that your new that sounds from a food truck sounds like like a novel like your first novel from a food truck.

What's that called?

what's what? shave it off? Which version of it?

shwarma Yeah, no, it's called some hero. Yeah. Oh, it

was really good. Donor. No. Yeah. Which, I don't know. But that's like pulped lamb. And other stuff.

Yeah. Like like the crusty lamb with all the spices on the outside.

Oh my god. You know, you know stars. You never sees in finding new ways to culinary disappoint me. You don't like the crusty deliciousness on the outside of a lamb kebab.

No, I don't I don't like some of those flavors. But as a human. You don't like you don't like human you don't like chili? Is he that? Remember when he yelled at me for not putting cumin in the chili? And you were like, it's not chili? It's tomato stew. Right? That? Yeah.

Until you had the cumin. At which point? Well, or, you know, beef stew. It's beef stew. And a rather crappy beef stew with that until you add freakin cumin. That is That is not cool stuff. Okay, so back to the although acknowledged can't get that out of my head. Oh, cheers. What does Jack What about BT? Well, he's classic. What about the what about the like the Russian version of, of lamb kabobs. I have another shot slicks, the Russian you would like that. It's not spiced.

That's great. Yeah. Well, that's

what I'm gonna make. Okay,

what's not gonna be there?

Someday you will come up. Someday you will come up and we'll get the lamp. Anyway, this we're going off topic. Is that ever happen before it? We've gone off topic. Never. It's never happened. Anyway, I'm very excited about the tandoor. I have to there's you're one of the big things when you get a tandoors it's Clay Right. So like people first you have to pre fire it. So I got to do the pre firing with charcoal. And that stops it from cracking because, remember, when we made the fake Tandoor for Anthony Bourdain, they do we cracked it because we fired real hard real fast. We tried to do pre fire, but we did Matt.

We did that stuff back then. And I was less hardcore than then what I mean legally hard core. What do you mean, the legality of what we did was not normally what

we carry anyway. So yeah, so you know, and we made that tender and what like, like a debt Lesson A Day lesson, we did the old school like to flower pot tandoor. And we drilled a hole in the bottom for the charcoal thing, put it in the trash can, surrounded with installations, and the food was delicious. Anyway, but now a little more hardcore. So got to do a pre firing of it. And then the big bone of contention with the tandoors is that you have to season the inside of it. But like with a mixture,

he hasn't used it, who the guy who sells them knew

Oh, I went to his warehouse in New Jersey, you can go to this warehouse in New Jersey, and the guy will just hand you a tandoor while it's like 350 pounds, but they'll hand it to you. He has actually a giant warehouse dude, who looks like a giant warehouse do complete with this sweet warehouse dude beard. And he like picks up the thing and puts it in the back of your station wagon anyways. Yeah, so right out there in Jersey, like 20 minutes from New York. You can just go by it. Pick it up. Thanks.

Yeah. So I hate to have to say this, but I have a caller on the line who's upset with the way you treated her progetti

oh. Oh my goodness. Dave the greatest it's the greatest thing that's ever happened.

Dave I was listening a couple of weeks ago and I heard you were talking badly about the VA jetty.

Just the name the name

The name but you don't trust the noodle the product? No,

you don't trust the product. You said that noodle.

Doc you said that you didn't trust the product?

We were talking about vegetable.

Noodle. Yeah, it's not I think it's could be an interesting. I think it could be an interesting look. I mean, I think like shredded. Like, like Daikon shreds and strips are delicious. Right? Yeah. Many shredded. Shredded, or let's strips noodle Ira lives? spiralize oh my gosh, you know what? All right. All right. And so you have this you have a you have a vested stake in the individuality device or more just a love for it. I have a What are you like part of the Jedi corporation or do you just have just just how

I just I got one. Because I'm you know, trying to cut back on the car and it changed my life. I mean, you can you can use it for everything like the Jedi carbonara, the Jedi and meatballs. I mean, it's like you just

say the Jedi and meatballs

I mean, it's amazing. You can do the Jedi fritters

once the kill themselves

you ever done like sausage and machete sausage in the gravy with the Virginian. I'm not going to here's here. Here's a Okay, what's your favorite things to get to the Jedi is? Or spiralised? You would say what are your favorite things to to spiralize in the Jedi?

Well, I pretty much exclusively spiralized zucchini, green and yellow variety. Didn't I just try never really done anything else? I don't I think that, you know, it has to be a little bit soft. I think that like a potato or a carrot would be a little too much for the spiralizer you know,

how big is the opening to the jetty? How big is the alternate? Do it like what? What size of a veg? Can you stick into that thing?

I mean, like zucchini size, you could do a cucumber, you could do like a cold cucumber salad.

You could put a cucumber Alright, all right. Hold on. Here's my question.

Feminists send you one for your birthday.

All right, well, we'll play around with

you experiment with it. And then you know, I'll call back in and we can go from there.

That's a fair deal. That's a fair deal. All right, we'll do they haven't busted out a lot of like, we haven't done a lot of side by sides or like, you know, culinary tests in the past year or so because of being you know, focused more on bar and the cookbook and everything in the series all, but we will definitely reopen our testing our testing phase of our career with the VA God, I look forward to it. Thanks.

Thank you. And I'll say that those fears on the Jedi are a great match.

We'll test it for you. When you send it send send your favorite things that you'd like to do.

Okay, for those of you that don't know By the way, I guess you know you know if you listen to the previous conversation you know what the virginity does for a living? Oh man, so we're talking about the fourth tandoors yes so whenever you're when you when you when you fire a tender for the first time you you protect the clade from later thermal shock right but then you have to put a seasoning on the inside so I'm trying to figure out whose recipe for seasoning you need because people mix like like sugar and mustard oil and like eggs and spinach and they rub it all on the inside the theory being that I guess it affects like the patina and whether or not the nones will stick to it properly and then release properly when they're when they're cooked. But expect me to go on kind of Tandoor frenzy for the next I'm gonna do I'm gonna probably do Mediterranean style lamb with spices that you might appreciate for Easter along with just non after nine after nine after that you like non Yeah, everybody likes not anyone in the engineering booth. Not like non do have to get an argument over here.

Come on. Garlic nons. My fav Yeah,

yeah. You like the garlic man? Yeah, I like clean. I don't know why I like clean. What about Eustace? I like playing? I like playing generally you like playing have to recover from that. So last week we had we had a question we didn't get to from Brian Van clever and clever, clever in about him. Hey, Dave hammer and the boot squad who I liked that boot squad. So yeah, Jackie molecules in the booth. Man. Yeah. Well, it's like it's almost like you become like the Terror Squad. Yeah, man Terror Squad. Alright, I received my first country ham last week, a half of a Colonel Bill Newsom's country ham. Colonel Bill Newsom is out of by the way, I believe it's Princeton, Kentucky I think is where they're from. But they're Nancy Mahaffey is the is the ham carrying master there. And she's been doing it for a long time, I think she took over the business, it's got to be like, maybe 1520 years ago. Now at least I think, I don't know. It's been a long time. I've spoken to her in years. But her hands are done according to the recipe that they've had in the family since their family was in Virginia, you know, hundreds of years ago. And they do ambient curing. So ambient curing, meaning they they really only care one time of year, when it starts getting cold out. And then they don't do a refrigerated care process. They wouldn't they do it in the way that you would have done it before you had refrigeration. So she has you know, every year she produces a different batch, some of which she saves for long enough to do two and three year old aged hands, although they all get bought up right now because she has, you know, pretty wide cold following following. The thing I like about her hand, she also doesn't for what it's worth she, I believe she's a non non nitrite adding non nitrate adding person, but I can't remember. But anyways, I think the interesting thing about her hands in particular, is that they that I've never been to her cure curing area, but apparently it's near pretty swampy region. And maybe that's why but they like at their best. Her hands have a particular kind of funky, almost at the back of your mouth blue cheese kind of a note that I think are indicative of her best hands. And so whenever I taste one of her hands, I like taste to see whether it has that particular note to it. In which case, you know, I'm like, oh, that's the real deal. And the only other hands I've had to have that blue cheese note are is a ham that my wife smuggled back to me from China, which when we go visit production, we can Yeah, I'm gonna go on a hackathon and China. Can't wait. Cannot wait. Anyway, that wasn't so I've got a few questions on storing it and slicing it for storing. I just put it in a brown paper sack and fold up the end tightly inside my kitchen cabinet. Then I set the ham in a bag on a metal great trivet. Online, it's mentioned to use cloth or wrap or to wrap it in paper. So I figured this is close but I'm still on the lookout for a cotton bag or something. My house has a California cooler, which is a vented food storage box which I could use for food storage as well. The conditions inside there for the next several months will probably be around 52 to 64 degrees and around 75% average humidity maybe a bit higher whereas the cabinet would be a tad warmer and drier. Of course I could always just use the fridge. But the other spaces are more plentiful of the options between us a kitchen cabinet a California cooler and a fridge What would be ideal? And because I got half a ham there's quite a bit of meat that's already exposed. Is it necessary to cover sliced areas with some sort of fat? I'd prefer not to use lard or shortening with hydrogenated oils if possible. Why though? Wonder why?

Don't know why.

So I was wondering if peanut oil or something might be a decent substitute. If not, I do have some leaf lard I can render down if I need to. I'm wondering what the best way to slice is. I've looked at instructions for slicing both country hams and Spanish and most of what I've seen for country hands look like they instruct you to cut perpendicular like a spiral cut, or or at least closer to being perpendicular to the bone, which used to be better for frying or whatnot. I like what not to do and right well in it for the Spanish hams that cut seem to be closer to being parallel to the bone. If I'm primarily eating it uncooked with very thin slices, what is the best way to cut it? Thanks, Brian from San Francisco, California i A Okay, now let's go and you want to go in reverse order, it's gonna reverse order. Alright, first of all, how to cut a ham now the age old. This is like this is the heart of the and I've spent a lot of time figuring out whether you should cut a ham across the grain the way that we traditionally eat all hams in this country. And by that, I mean even when they're eaten crudo styles. I'm talking for Shooto and even the average American slicing a Spanish ham was going to slice it across the grain. Now, my feeling borne out by research that I've done now, like did over 10 years ago, so I have there's probably I'm sure there's been a lot of recent Scott much more recent scholarship on this not that what I was doing was scholarship, but it was for the Hammond ham exhibit I did back in a form was that traditionally, meats are hands like this were sliced if there were going to be eaten and a crudo style were sliced. The way a Spanish ham was in that in that to this day, you know, the Italian folks who you know, are more artisanal at it doing it will slice it, The Long Way that is horizontally that is with you know, with the grain running along in a long strip, this does several things. It produces a much chewier piece of meat. And it allows you to section the entire length of or not the entire length, but a larger length of the ham in in one in one slice. So it gives you a two year thing and more textural variation. And also, let's be honest, most hams a hand ham slicing isn't so good. So it gets like thick and thin and thick and thin and thick and thin. Remember that time we were doing it and you everyone's laughing at each other. Everyone was telling how everyone else was a crap hole. And then as soon as you said someone else was doing a good job, then they would break through and mess it up. Yeah, it's fun. Anyways, so the point is, is that, that people who liked that style, like that style now, the cross cut that we have now, really, I believe didn't it never came into vogue in terms of crudo ham serving until the invention of the meat slicer by a fella named Van Berkel who have the Burchell meat slicer. So those those and those the original ones were completely vertical, the ones that you see in the fancier shops with the vertical blade, and actually the original ones were amazingly frightening looking because it was literally a large spinning blade with no guards at all. There's they're fantastically frightening. You ever seen the pictures of those guys? There's a picture of what looks like a, you know, a 2015 Brooklynite, ie, he's got like a huge hipster kind of mustache on him. And standing in front of this machine. Oh my god, imagine if we got one of those old ones and like, set it up and then forced hipsters to use it. Their hands would get cut off, like left and right. No blade guards on this thing.

They don't use their hands to hold on in the bank. Fixies anyway, right?

Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, the only time I've been heavily damaged in the kitchen was with a meat slicer. Well, I mean, other than being horribly burned. But I mean, in turn with a knife lie. And the lie Yeah, but what I meant to say is the only time I've been really really badly cut in the kitchen was on the on a meat slicer. And that was like a semi modern one with a bunch of guards on either like I'm holding my thumb even just thinking about feeding my thumb into the edge of that blade, which is anyway. I've thankfully never, you know, severed huge, you know, any whatever. Yet, yet. Wow. You don't want to notice that you said anyways, the point is that the advent of that slicing technology has kind of like led not only to the luncheon meat phenomenon that you have, remember Blimpie back in the day? Yeah. Fresh lace Blimpie those things still exist. They still have anyways. But led to this idea of cross cut hams and the ability to slice them very, very thin. And all Americans grew up who grew up eating Americans that grew up eating prosciutto. And other crudo style hams grew up eating it this way. And I have to say, I like it. I like a cross cut him cross cut ham is 5000 times like, I don't know it's more supple. It hangs like a fabric in your hands. You could put up your nose, sniff it in a way that you can't I think the long kind of different scripts and I like it and it's it's sections a different thing instead of section and along the length accent accent it sections, whatever particular muscle group you're on right now all the way through. So I like it. But that said it's a matter of taste. I don't believe as other people believe that there's a right answer or a wrong answer. I think it's what you want. If you want that more tender, thinner slice, go crosscut if you want to sample all the different pieces and you like that textural variation go go horizontal but I will say it's incredibly difficult to try to make good cross cut slices by hand. So if you don't have a meat slicer I would slice it more traditionally get a like a long, thin or straight slicer and learn to strike a slice, surrounded style. Makes sense. Okay, now, as for was the middle part of the question, the middle part of the question was quite a bit of meat already exposed. So the fact of the matter is, is that any meat that you leave exposed will, you want to keep it in, you know, not to dry an environment or it's going to overdrive it's going to dry out. But any piece of meat that you leave exposed will end up depending on how long you store it drying out to the same extent that a, that the fit. So if you look at a ham, like a standard like American country ham, there is a portion of the meat that's exposed, you know, where you severed the leg from the pig, right? The face of the of the ham there where you severed, there's that exposed meat, and eventually any cut surface will approach the same level of desiccation as that face section of me, which maybe like maybe you don't, I would believe that any oil covering would help somewhat ameliorate that problem. You could probably even literally store it in oil. You know, I mean, with a complete cover of like in a gallon Zippy with like, oil around it to prevent I don't know, I've never tried it, but I'm sure that would work. But that said the old school folks, in fact, in mountain in Spanish mountain hams, and in Italian, Italian and Italian hams right, they'll I forget what you remember what they mix in with the with the lard, they mix some sort of flour with the lard, but I forget what it is and paste it over the face. That's why the face of prosciutto is that kind of like whitish color when they're when they're carrying it. And that prevents rapid moisture loss through the face. And so what that means is is that is that the meat will be relatively similar levels of dryness throughout the muscle wears. If you look at a cross cut of an American ham, you'll notice that the meat that's closer to the face is substantially darker, substantially drier, has a different texture and different tastes therefore then the main cushion of the meat which is up and usually very, very much softer. So anyway, and in the old days, yeah, you would rub lard and probably with some other mixture, some crap with it so that it doesn't drip out on you. I don't know. And that's what I remember. I think it was Morris burger from burgers Smokehouse in Hawley, I think I believe they're in Hollywood, in the Ozarks, but the town is called I think it's the town is called Hollywood, which is pretty awesome. Anyway, he used to say that what they would do is they would go out, they would hang their hands on a wire because the rats in the barn couldn't hold on to the wire, right so they couldn't climb down a wire to get to the hams and then they would slather lard, they would cut the piece off, then they would slather it with lard and hang it, hang it back up on the wire. And that's the way they would keep their hands out in the barn when he was a kid, and then they would go scrape off, slice another frying slice out and then put the lard back on and go and that's how they would keep it so that should work fine. Now as to where you should keep your hands. I used to hang my hands. There's two. There's three. There are several enemies to hams. So the first enemy is over desiccation, I would guess probably in San Francisco, that's not going to be too much of a of a problem. The other two enemies are bugs, specifically like things that bore into the meat these like little beetles. I hate them. I hate them and you can see like you'll get like little bore holes in your hand where those freakin beetles get in now this is where screening is going to help you. Right and any sort of thing like that it's going to help because once they hit they'll hit all the hands that you have that have exposed me right so the bag should probably prevent this like the cloth bag it will probably prevent this some papers and sacks probably prevent this. So you won't have that problem. The other problem is freaking mites. Now mites they form like a dusty powder and you'll notice a dusty powder accumulating under your hands because he's mites get there and I don't think any screen. I'm not sure but I don't think any screen is going to prevent you from once you have the mites on the ham. And for me it was I brought a mighty hand in mighty ham. I brought a mighty ham in and in all the rest of my hands got contaminated with the mites. And I spoke to I spoke to Sam Edwards from as well as Edwards and son as a supporter of our network, by the way, and he was like yeah, like unless you have treatments for it like in your home. You don't typically treat for mites unless you treat for it. Like once you get a mite and once you get mites in there, you're done. You're going to have the mites and nobody the mites they make that powdery stuff. I mean, I don't know that they hurt the hand but it's kind of an irritant. So storing in the fridge the problem of storing in the fridge wrapped in paper is that you'll get some moisture coming up to the surface there and I've gotten mold on the paper which is not a big problem. You have to kind of wash it off so I would just kind of hang it out maybe in your California cooler. I think it should be good temperature fluctuation not bad. It'll just keep aging you just got to worry about over desiccation, which you could probably fix it Seeing some form of large spread over the face of the meat or some stuff like this. Yeah, yeah, yes. Let's take a break come back with more cooking issues we're not no, we're not going to commercial break all right. Jackie molecule is not ready with his

Hey, what's up guys, it's me Jack, as in Jack from cooking issues as in the guy that's probably been talking on this show. So here on the break to tell you about molecular recipes.com, which is not only an awesome website and store and resource, but also they support us, which makes them even that much cooler. So I know Dave gives you plenty and plenty of information on the show. But should you need further resource should you want to get some of the things he's talking about? Molecular recipes.com has recipes, techniques, ingredients, tools, all in the world of this modernist thing we love so much on the show. So you know, explore the world of phones and spheres and invisible foods and mind blowing cocktails, all that awesome stuff. There's a community of over 400,000 chefs scientists and food lovers sharing their favorite recipes, tips and tricks, cool photos, tools, gadgets. Again, this is everything you'd be into all in one place, molecular recipes.com. And just for being a listener of the show, you'll get 10% off any of their popular kits, just by using the promo code heritage at checkout. That's promo code heritage. So again, check them out molecular recipes.com tons of really awesome stuff. They're definitely right up your alley

we're back when you say invisible foods, Jackie molecules can't see him. Can't see him. How do you know how to show

you like if you go to the website you'll see there's like invisible raviolis and stuff.

Oh, you see see through?

I guess it would be see through? Yeah,

I mean, like I'll tell you what, if I could sell invisible food I'd be a rich look at all the invisible food in front of you right now. So you pay me

transparent and see through.

I like to I like transparency through as you all know. Anyone that's met me knows that I enjoy. I enjoy some clarified products. Yes, I'm still products. Listen, go to that. Go to their website. Check it out. And, you know, hopefully you're going to find something that you desperately need in order to show that that you know their sponsorship is worthwhile. I'm all right, Jack.

I'm eating invisible scallops right now, by

the way. Oh my god. How do they taste? They'd really good they're seared perfectly. Really? Yeah, even the searing is invisible. Yep. Dang. Dang. You don't remember the first time someone I remember. Because the Roca is right, so the, you know, Jordy the brother Rocha, who's the pastry chef or I guess still is at L Clark and Roca. He was using their Rotovac because they were kind of pioneers of roto Vapp. And he was making all of these perfectly colorless, clear desserts like with the flavor of X, Y and Z. Like years ago. It's kind of a mind blowing, mind blowing experiment back in the day. Way back in the day, anyway. Okay. Questions. I didn't know right saying about pepper. Hey, David, the crew I'm in love with the oils produced via the chef step technique. So you look up on ChefSteps thyme oil, as basically they do, they back they vacuum bag and then cook their time with oil and other spices at 55. C for Celsius for three hours. Okay, so far, we go through a ton of time and rosemary oil at my house. Now thinking about adapting that method for black pepper oil, obviously will need longer extract time and heat question and he but where would you start on a process for that? Thanks, Eddie. Okay. But it's a good question. I've never, I've never since I haven't done it, right. I'm like, I'm not going to give any numbers here we're going to say is I would, I would set up test batches, small test batches. So the first thing you're going to want to do is I would test a range of the short answer is no, I don't have any recommendations. Here's a long answer. I would save a bunch of test batches with a different kind of grinds of the pepper, different peppers. First of all, I mean obviously you know black pepper is not a kind of unitary thing you can get like Malabar you can get tele cherry you can get you know, a bunch of different things. kind. So even like a trip, if you live here in New York, you can just go to Calusa, Ian's, or even a dual specialty or in these places and you can buy five or six different kinds of pepper. And we used to do that. Remember, we used to have those pepper tastings and kind of did you like that tasting? Yeah, that was fun. We did it basically on butter with bread, right? Because the butter helped, like spread it out. And so we will just do butter bread and pepper, which smelled by itself. And in fact, there are stark and huge differences between the different kinds of peppers. Right? Right. Yeah. Even you agreed? Yes. Yeah, the lady who thinks that all ketchup stays the same. The subject back to this. So what I would do is I would first try to figure out which kind of pepper you want to use. And then I would try whole, cracked, and fine. And then I would because I've done pepper with with liquor, right. In fact, I think I have one black pepper tincture in the book. And for that I tested a variety of grinds, but I've never done it in a variety of peppers, but I've never done it in oils this way if and then I would test a variety of temperatures. And then I would see, test those temperatures to see which temperature regime you like best in terms of balance. And then after you do it, I would test like maybe three different temperatures like low, medium, and high. And then and then in between those temperatures, I would test probably another two and then I would test duration of time. So you're going to have to run a bunch of tests. But in the end, you'll be able to get something that you really like and then you can tweet us back and tell us tell us what you like. But I'll say another thing is that I'm reminded years ago, Stein garden called me on the phone. And he said Geoffrey Stein garden, you know, like one of my culinary writing idols. Someone recently or talked to him recently, anyway. Remember when he's on the show? Yep. That was fun. Yeah, you like him? Because he's mean to me? Yes, I do. Yeah. Anyway, when we come back on the show, to actually get some Stein garden back on the show. Last time garden. Yeah. So anyway, so he said to me, he says, You are an idiot. Like everyone else, you add pepper at the beginning of cooking, whereas it's known via studies that, that you know, basically the the awesome aroma of pepper volatilizes, you know, within minutes after adding it, and all you're left with is the bitter taste, to which I replied, but Jeffrey, I liked that bitter taste, you know what I mean? And so we got got an argument, but what it leads to is this idea that you can have just like hops, where you can add kind of a bittering hop, and then an aroma hop, right, you can add pepper at the beginning of a cook for its bitterness, and then at the end for aroma, so with your oil. And I do that actually with when I'm doing hop infusions, hop infusions into alcohol, I'll do some heated and some cold, right, you might also experiment with pepper with oil, by the way, using an EC to try and get a higher pressure to pressurize stuff into the pepper. But the point being is that you're going to get different results because pepper oil is extremely volatile. Here's another little wrinkle, I read a paper or tried to read a paper I didn't really have time called thermal properties of blackpepper. And it's volatile oil by type is too small here Marilla dar Meg wall, and tk Swami 2011. And I was hoping for some like, like hard and fast numbers, which they didn't give it. But suffice it to say, the one number that didn't stick out in my head was that the volatile oils are solid below about 38 degrees Celsius. And they in the introduction, they mentioned that the grinding even kind of normal grinding can heat pepper up substantially and change the composition of its volatile oils by volatilizing. Some of them so and they say cryo grinding is one way you might get around it. So another interesting thing you might do to try to get an infusion of flavors that you'll get in a whole peppercorn but doing it more completely in the ground fashion would be to cryo grind your pepper keeping it below about 40 degrees minus 40 degrees Celsius minus 40 degrees, your average fridge does about minus 20. So we're talking about like storing dry ice for a while and grinding it or using ln to grind it but that might give you a different result which we hold interesting kind of thing. So some things you might want to think about is this kind of you know pre pepper post hit pepper similar to kind of dry hopping to try to get the bitterness out of one and the aroma out of another that another thing you might want to look at is maybe doing like a super chilled like a cryo grind to see whether that gives you something different versus the normal just playing with temperatures and times. But hopefully this is some food for thought. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, stashes like you. Okay, move on. Alright. Now, we have a question in from Brooke in Tribeca, and Brooke writes at the official style with a capital T to capital B and capital capital C. Do you ever do that?

No, no, no, no, no. I guess I live there. Maybe. You're really? Yeah, yeah.

What are your feelings on Tribeca? Like it do you I mean back in the day Tribeca was like you know, it was the it was the fizzy you know what I mean? Like that's like the artists that couldn't afford to live in the Soho this so they moved down to Tribeca. Now it's like super fancy My wife used to live in that's where isn't that where they Yeah. And that's the only reason you liked that event right is you can look at on Beyonce department and hopefully she came out once, right? Yeah. And you were like, oh, Beyonce, right. Who my brother calls Beyonce are used to anyways. Love the show new listener. Quick question about making fresh cheeses, specifically ricotta. What are your thoughts on ricotta stuff like it? Yeah. All right, fine. No, no problems here. Is there any advantage to using a circulator to make something like ricotta versus a quick stovetop method? I recently used a ricotta recipe they call for cooking the entire milk cream acid mixture in a bag for one hour at 172 degrees Fahrenheit. That's pretty damn specific. What that and Celsius can you look at it for me says that sounds like the kind of thing that someone came up with a Celsius recipe and then just hit convert. What is it? 172? It's, I bet it's pretty close to an even five degrees somewhere in Celsius. Let's see what it is. We have for people sizes, fingers are fastly lightning. But you know, the Google in here is not necessarily so fast. While she's finding that I'll continue the question. But traditional stovetop methods seem to call for just a quick simmer before adding the acid to the Kirtle well, you with the thing you didn't tell me Brooke is like what would the result? What is 77? That's not a good one. So no, that is a real number. 77 on wood

77.77

Yeah, okay, but who would choose 77.77777? You said 172. Right. Yeah. All right. So they must have meant that but you didn't tell me what the what the results were. So I don't know whether or not you enjoy that 172 Anyway, wherever moving on, but traditional stovetop methods seem to call for just a quick simmer before adding the acid to the Kirtle. While we're on the topic, what's better, whole milk or milk with some heavy cream? And is there any difference in texture between lemon juice distilled vinegar and white wine vinegar? Or is that just a taste preference? Many thanks and congrats on the nomination. Best Brooke from Tribeca get a nomination for the beard and a one one and ICP Jane Grigson award. Oh, yeah. Hey, yeah,