Hello, everybody, and welcome to a brand new series on heritage radio network called the culinary call sheet where we give a peek into the back kitchen of culinary media. I'm your host, April Jones,

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Hello, and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave harden your host of cooking issues coming to you live Roberta's pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn on the heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to 1245. Join as usual in the studio with Natasha are the hammer Lopez dangerous that's good. Yeah, yeah. And got Jack in the in the booth. How you doing? Good. Oh, oh, you hear this? Yeah, some reverb Jack.

That's my new nickname reverb.

Reverb Jack Are you switch between revert Jack and Jackie molecules? Speaking of which, we had a suggestion about the hammer. And Peggy from Australia. You know, we have some we have some listeners in Australia. Which, which I enjoy. We've never been European says. Would you like to go? No, you don't want to go to Australia? We're not far.

X accent now.

What do you Booker

so far? For an English speaking country don't want to go?

Whoa, whoa, whoa, what? Wait, you only want to travel for a far distance if they don't speak English.

I just don't have any interest in Australia. I really don't.

What about New Zealand? I would go there before best

No. Don't have any interest.

I need to kind of know what's poisoning you again see a whole continent. Oh my god, well, that fits in. Listen, people. This is just like you now you're getting a little taste of what it's actually like to be with Nastasia Lopez. So Peggy from Australia, wrote in she had a question but she also says that we need a new ringtone for you stars. And it's, it's called. I just don't like it. And the the artist it's old is a drag queen who goes by the name of Pauline pants down, but making fun of an extreme right wing person named Paul Pauline Hanson. Right. Who was had a political party called or still they're called One Nation. And among other things, they believed in in like, not giving the Aborigines any rights and like basically turning Australia into a big like, you know, Anglo dominated universe, no immigration, all this other stuff. And, and so one of the lines from this thing is my language has been murdered my language has been murdered so very very apropos. Jackie how that can we can we hear the I don't like it course.

Yep. All right what we got here we go

me now it means that I don't like it when you've turned my voice about I don't like it when you burst one nation out my language has been murdered. My language has been murdered my shopping trolley murdered my groceries just gone I don't like when you've turned my voice about when you've heard one nation out my language has been murdered. My language has been murdered my shopping trolley. My groceries just gone 123678 racist rubbish racist rubbish 123678 racist.

Oh, you know what? I can't wait with this egg cup. We don't like shopping trolley you also do not like British people because they call their luggage release

and jumpers and all

that what's a jumper? sweater? Why is it a jumper? I don't know. It's like the opposite you like pop into it? Yeah. You don't jump into that. But anyway, so but that sounds like it was actually her voice being used. Whereas there's other other versions where it's, it's him singing as her Sunday. What do you think? Could that be like? That could be your theme song. Yeah. I like it like

it. You can't hear the Australian accent too hard on it.

Dang. Well, it's like, look. Okay, okay. Okay, okay. I

know our accent sucks too. Okay, okay. Okay. Listen. Actually. Yeah, what? Yeah, What? What? Yeah,

listen. Jack back me up. Because you are you are a musical sort. Right? Yeah, but nine times out of 10 When no matter what language no matter what accent you have, when you sing you pretty much sing in neutral Americans so but it's that's true, right? So it you're gonna say what's the most music wait unless you're

like Green Day or some of these American bands and then put on some other weird acts.

But what is the Green Day accent doesn't even exist. Like that's not even a real accent. Right? I know what that is. Whoa, all right. I mean, doesn't doesn't really exist. But like, you know, the Beatles basically sound American most of the time. Yeah, but I'm saying so in other words, like the language of music, which is, you know, melodious is like a kind of neutral American thing being the counterexamples actually like a lot like Billy Bragg who could not sound less American court of course he's not you like that stuff. Jack you into the old brag good stuff, right?

How about like the Michael McDonald accent? What does that go? That's I'm not gonna do it.

Wait, do you the guy from the doobies they're gonna be you

know, the piano playing singing soulful from the Doobie. Maybe I'm using the TVs.

I can't do the do the Doobie because a doobie you have to like wrong yet. Like you can't like you can't outdo be the doobies. You know what I mean? Even George Clinton gave a shout out to the Doobie Brothers. You know what I mean? Many when my language has been murdered, they were socially. So should we now that you've insulted her entire country and said you have no desire to go there?

I didn't insult her.

Oh, look, I didn't install us. I just insulted your whole country. That's all you know. Yeah. You live there. Yeah, yeah, you were born there. And like, it's part of your heritage and your culture and everything. But you know, it's not you. I don't like it's your whole country. You know what I mean? It's not right. I can't believe you don't want to do it. But you Jack

i With all due respect to everybody there and I'm with stars on this one. My list of places it would be. Yeah. I mean, convince me otherwise,

I guess. I mean, you know, it's like how many marsupial's do we have like one or two? Like a possum? Like the worst marsupial? We have like the worst marsupial Yeah,

like what do you want to do with them

without platypus? You don't like to platter you are not anonymous. What

what like what's the point? You don't

what's the point of anything? What

do you what do you like I'm really humbled Torah Thailand and you're like I'm gonna go see marsupial's like

good temple tour of Thailand. They've looked with you go off the coast of New Caledonia very rich in in strange conifers and strange plants in general. Look all I'm saying is is like you know since when are you interested in free content? No, I'm

saying what sounds distances you know the

kangaroos hopping out the Outback. You don't want to see the Outback out?

No, I don't have any interest

in some of the oldest living things on Earth are out there Great Barrier Reef don't care Great Barrier Reef doesn't get a vote Sounds good. All right. Thank you.

Like Hawaii make for the for waves and stuff. Yeah, no, I'm

not you're not catching a wave and sitting on top of the frickin world stars. Let's be honest. Cheese. Is that a call? We got to save me from from like my, my hateful crew here. Yes. Caller you're on the air.

Okay, this is Jasper calling in from three then hey, how

you doing? Good. How are you? Alright, so you're having problems locating which chiller to use, right?

Yep, exactly. Yep.

So for those of you that fall has been taking a while to Jasper's putting together a roto lab setup in Sweden, and he's looking at buki, who are manufacturers of the road have apps. And they also make a lot of chillers. And the question is, how cold does it does it need to go. So my old work when I back before I was using liquid nitrogen in my roadmap, I was using Poly Science chiller, the PolyScience chiller made it down to about minus 20 degrees Celsius, which is about chilling power very low. So what happens is, is that what you do is, is you you have a relatively large reservoir of either glycol or alcohol, right, and you get the whole reservoir down to minus 20 and change. And then during the distillation process, the the condenser heats up, but so like at the beginning, like the if you do your standard thing, where you're putting a liter of spirits into your into your thing plus whatever you've added, so like a liter of spirits, plus, let's say, like 200 grams of like peppers or herbs, whatever, right. So usually off of that leader. If I start with 40% alcohol, I'm going to end up with roughly somewhere between 600 mils and 700 mils of distillate. So those are usually my parameters. That's usually where I'm working. Okay when I'm doing alcoholic distillations. So when I'm running the PolyScience, chiller, I'll start out my distillation at like minus 20 or so. And by the time I'm done, I'm much higher temperature like minus four minus five, right? Which is where the where it can maintain forever, because that's where it's, that's where the chilling power is equal to the equal to the heating power of my thing, right? Okay, yep. So the, the thing is, is that early in the distillation, when you get the much more fugitive stuff, right, the stuff that boils more easily, and it's harder to capture more important to have those low, low temperatures at the beginning of the run, versus at the end of the run. And so I never mind it so much that the temperature would rise over the course of the run. Now, you don't want it ridiculously underpowered or having a very, very small reservoir, because then the temperature changes are immediate, right. So you know, the one that I was using the reservoir was, was a lot it was like, I want to say, like seven liters, maybe it's seven eight liters of stuff in the reservoir. And so you know, I had a good bit of a good bit of stuff that was down at temperature to start my distillation run with. Now also remember that when you are, you know, when I was doing lower temperature, or I should say higher temperature distillation using a chiller, I also had the I was pumping product out of my column as it was going. So as it was heating up, I didn't really have a lot of danger of the stuff that was in the receiver flask revitalizing and going up through my stacking up through the vacuum thing. So you can, you can get around that problem either by chilling your receiver flask, right, which works or putting a pump on to that onto that spherical join at the bottom where the receiver is or a third option that I never did was just install, like a small Dry Ice Trap in between. So for those who don't know what I'm talking about, so we're talking about a big distillation rig that's hooked up to a vacuum pump. And typically, one of the issues on these vacuum pumps is they get if you if you start pumping vapor through the vacuum pump that is with the product you're losing flavor one and two, you're dead, you're degrading the vacuum level because it can't really pump you know vapor other than dry air it can't doesn't want stuff really condensing in. So there's a little bottle called a wolf bottle. And the wolf bottle is a something that goes in between your vacuum controller and your and your your condenser column. And what you can do there is you can just put, instead of like a standard wolf bottle, you can basically make a little like super cold trap so you could put like a little bit of dry ice, or a little bit of ln in there and then you have a secondary trap to re condense any stuff it's gonna go through and then right at the end of the run, you can just because it's a small trap, it's not your main trap. You can pour your liquid into the into the wolf bottle to thaw out anything you've gotten. So those are the options that you can do. But so you wrote into me on Twitter, I think like last night or something. I haven't had a chance to try to talk to Tony yet that Tony conigliaro, our good friend over 69, colebrooke Row ins that are townhouse and the drink factory in, in the UK, who's has a couple road of apps and uses a chiller that only gets down to what do you say minus? What?

10 300 watts. So it surprised me a little bit that it was that high.

That's not just not true. I just don't believe that. I just don't believe it at all. But what

I need to do I need to do it. Yeah. Oh, I got I got that fact. Data from view view ca themselves?

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, look, what I would do is I would, if you find a drink fact, drink factory, you know, I was gonna tweet them out later. And then CCU on it, or you can see see me and the drink factory on a tweet, and just say, hey, look, we're looking to get a chiller and beauty lied to us and said you had this and they'll tell you exactly what said up there running, I don't believe because Tony likes to run his distillations even lower than I do, right. So you know, I'm running my, you know, look, it's a little bit of a lie. Right. So like, I'm running my water bath at 50. Celsius. And he's typically running or used to be back when I was working with him on the road of ABS, he was running his bath at like 40 Celsius. Now, as you know, the temperature of the water bath and the distillation rig is not the same thing as the temperature that distillation is taking place at because you know, the harder the harder you're distilling, you know, the greater the temperature difference between the, between the water bath and the actual product. And I and I don't know what kind of glass he uses, but I only use fairly thick wall plastic coated glass. And so I have I have one of the one of the higher temperature deltas between my bath and the product. So you know, my standard operating procedure is to always place the back of my hand. Because the front of my hand has to callus. That's why I use the back of my hand to test everything starts. Did you know that I was used to back because, yeah, because I can't sense temperature with my fingertips anymore, just because you know, whatever. So I use the back of my hand on the on the neck of the rotating distillation class to judge the true temperature of the vapor because that equalizes out pretty much where the vapors so that can give you an idea of what you're kind of where you're distilling. So like I say, it's hard to judge, but I know that he likes to run his stuff down at like 40. So if he's running his stuff at 40, like even like the way that beauty wants you to do it, like they want at least 20 degrees. What do they want? No, they want 40. Right? I think they want 40 or

40? In difference. Yeah,

yeah. And so like, that wouldn't even work because it would need to go to even to zero based on on his. And if it only went to 10. You could even though Europeans tend to have a hatred of ice machines compared to Americans, like you could just use a frickin ice bath at that point. And so it wouldn't make sense. Do you want I mean, doesn't make sense to me. 10 degrees Celsius doesn't make any sense to me at all?

No, it doesn't make for me either. But however, I do have like a number because I understand everything you say, but what I can't figure out is like a chilling power at minus 20. See, like a number for that? Because I don't have a good feeling for that. It's like 300 Watts, okay, or is 200 Watts, okay, or? I mean it Yeah, so of course, a lot in price if you go from 200 to 400 watts at minus 20, for instance. So, right, so I'll have a difference, right?

So I would look at so let's say you have like a I don't really I don't remember anymore. Let's say you have like an eight liter bath, right? And I would look at what its performance is at like minus five Celsius. And I would kind of maximize that number. And then I would, and then I would just see, I don't think mine had 200 watts at I don't think mine at 200 watts at minus 20 I think it was like 100. And it's been many, many, many years, I could try to go look up the old numbers on my Poly Science. But you know, if sweet spot was down around minus five or minus six Celsius, that's where the majority of its power was. And then and then it just you know, the power went down. As you know, listen, people like anytime you reduce the temperature on a refrigeration unit like this, you reduce the number of actual watts of cooling power it has even though you're not reducing the usage of power that the machine has, it just becomes less efficient. So So yeah, so I would bet that like 200 watts at minus 20 is fine, as long as you have like, you know, a corresponding, you know, big wallop of power when you get down to minus five and then you get kind of a natural gradation as you go because remember, towards the end of your distillation, you're pumping mostly water and you don't really want freeze up on your on your coils. You want it to drip down receiver. Yep, yeah. But I like either tweet me and also tweet that drink factory. I'll try to remember later on today to see what kind of unit they use, because I know that, you know, they're running them day in and day out and they use only stuff that you can get in Europe. And I guarantee you that they did not use something that only gets down to 10. Yeah, no, it just doesn't make any sense. No matter what beauty says. Remember, beauty makes great equipment. They're not cooks, you know? You know, it's Oh, yeah, it's that simple.

Okay, yeah. They Thank you very much for your information. I will make a tweet and the CCU on that one. Tony. All right. Okay,

we'll figure it out. All right, cool. All right. Bye. Bye. Now back to back to Peggy's question in Australia. And by the way, she I don't what's this emotive? What's this? What's this emoticon happy face. But it's not a happy if it's like a happy rising sun.

It's a new Gmail happy face.

Yeah. So like, I don't know how to use emoticons. So I literally just write out what the emoticon kindness and my favorite is smiling by love boo, smiling pilot. And we have we mentioned on some we've mentioned on air how much I'm upset that Siri won't come out and just say smiling pile of poo unless you texted to me right Jack? And we talked about that? No, really. So it turns out that if like, let's say Booker DAX sends me a bunch of emoticons or let's say stars does it because you know, she has the same kind of mentality that they do. sends me an emoticon and I do as well come on him to be honest. Like that says that's that's smiling pile of poo, right? Smiling pile of poo. And then you say please read me. Siri, please read me Anastasia is you know, text. And it'll go that yellow pads wrote smiling pile of poo, smiling pile of poo, smiling pile of poop. But if you just go Siri say smiling pile of poo. She won't do it. Is that right? It's weird. Isn't Don't? Don't we all isn't it a machine's not a human. Right.

Well, she'll read you what you get, but she will not be told what to do.

That's the equivalent of someone who like sings NWA lyrics and drops and bombs like they're like it's raining and doesn't like an oboe won't say it. Oh, I won't say it if you just asked me to say it. But if I'm quoting, NWA lyric, well, then I can just say it left and right. Which is not true. It's not true. either. You can say it or you can say

is to have some morality and that's where we have well, then

she shouldn't say you're 10 She should be like, Dave I won't repeat what Anastasia says because she has foul language right? Or like some sort of like substitution like you do when you're quoting rap songs. Jack You substitute when you quote rat. Oh, yes. Yeah, of course. You

don't have to silence on the word. Yeah, you Oh, really? You blank

yourself out? Yeah, you know what, who was like remember when Nine Inch Nails used to do their radio edit stuff. And they would literally just blank out the frickin song during the verses. Yeah, I was like, wow, that was strong because because like, up until that point, most radio edits I knew they would just insert a different word. You know, I need to record a separate version. But like the ad he's like, I'm not going to change my song man. You're just gonna get silenced during that part. If you think Trent Reznor for as much of a jerk as he probably was like, he made some baller moves. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. All right. Anyway, back to this question. I don't know. How do I get into that? What is wrong with me? 26 is a medication. Do.

We talked about this before? Therapy?

Okay. Peggy again writes in I love my little a novice circulator. But like some others who have written into I have big issues with the landfill aspect of low temperature cooking. I use Ziploc bags as much as possible, but they have limited reuse before they fail. By the way, Dave, great job on nailing down SC Johnson about cooking in their bags. I want to remember that when I found was like a canned cook in the freaking bags that can right they're like yes, you can. Using rolls of thick bagging material and a domestic sealer. I can start with a stupidly long bag line length and for each you sacrifice only an inch or so from one sealed edge. more environmentally friendly as well as frugal, but washing all these use greasy bags get greasy or greasy. See, I like breezy. I know. Me too. Yeah, breezy. Bags of either sort is just nasty. Which is true. Pondering reusable options. Is there a preferably non toxic and this is where this rising sun smiley like. Although the moment going into high temperature melting wax that could be used as a coating for meats. Assuming it was possible to formulate such a wax, would it be theoretically able to transfer heat well enough? It would have to it would be great to have a coating slash skin that I could peel off remelt and reuse from what you know about materials. This is even a possibility or am I just dreaming? Is it just me or would anyone else use something like this? I also kind of like the idea of peeling back a coating to reveal the magic like with some cheeses. Oh, you remember the baby bells.

They're still around.

You know Booker loves those things and he likes to peel the wax and he mutilates I'm sure you also a wax mutilator I don't eat those. Even when you're a kid What about like any wax coating on a cheese? Jack? Oh, I'm a wax mutilator your wax mutilator Oh yeah, because it's fun. Oh yeah. Do you like stars? Do you like those wax candies? Like those wax lips? You

know I like all those wax bottles that you won't let me

eat nickel nips. Yeah, no, I was buying those from my freakin brother. That's why they wouldn't

let me eat them in the car. What? In your car? You said your car would get dirty?

I did not get people. Anyone who knows me. No, that's a ridiculous thing to say. Anyone who's met me or the fact that like I carry my

labs gonna be candy dust everywhere. This is when you first got your car. No, no, no,

no. First of all, there's no dust from a nickel nib. It's a liquid wax phenomenon. I just probably knew that you're gonna crumple up the wax and now you know what I was with this. No one paper? No, I can't No, no, no, this is crap. First of all, I want to record everything you should. And in full context. I like weird editing. Anastasia is the queen of weird editing. I don't know how to edit. You know? No, I mean, like the Stasi, like well, the Stasi will like do like a big Socratic thing. She drags you through a half an hour of arguments and like with like, like, a billion conditions and then like, okay, in the event that you know, I was on an island and an aeroplane and blah, blah, blah, blah, it ends up with you cutting your foot off and eating it. And then she's like, that's, that's but then when you talk to someone else be like Dave wants to cut off his foot needed? No, I don't. It's just like, if you give me a whole bunch of things that lead up to it, would I cut off my foot and eat it? If that's whatever the one that we talk about, please family show. Okay, so back to the question. Coating wax coating so like, you know, I'm thinking something like a bottarga it Look, obviously, it'd be possible to get a a wax coating that would melt at a high enough temperature, but I think you're gonna have problems. Remember, if it melts at that high temperature, then you'd have to get it up to that temperature to dip the meat into and if it was that hot when you were dipping the meat into it, it would start steaming the start steaming the the moisture that was in the meat. So I think you'd have I think you'd have problems basically, where now there could be for instance, like a self sealing wax or something like this, that you could just press onto the wax to do it. I think in the future what's going to happen isn't necessary although I do actually kind of like the idea that you have a stake and then you peel back the wax and then kind of sear it you don't like that idea. I kind of like that idea. What color is in your mind.

The wax red,

red. Yeah, I was sick. not black. I hate powdered Black Wax everywhere like from like, like, or like I actually I hate the powdered wax from like, the liquor bottles. I hate the powdered wax everywhere because when it gets old, it gets dry and brittle. Right but you hate that and it's like crimp crumbling everywhere. And you're like, why is this happening to me? But in my mind, is that weird? Translucent beeswax color. Okay, yeah, like a like a Matthew Barney sculpture anyway. I think the future here, Peggy is that someone's going to do like a bio plastics bag that can be composted. I mean, that's what's gonna happen right now. It's somewhat difficult for a number of reasons because they don't last long and hard processing and stuff like this, but someone's gonna make up a bio compostable bag that works and then we just won't feel bad about it. What do you think says we people wouldn't feel bad about it if it was like, corn plastic, right,

right. Yeah. What do you think? Sugar plastic?

Yes, sorry.

Yes, sugar plastic that you knew banned sugar plastic. But there's there's people who make those resealable silicone things but just the idea of reusing those bags and not getting 100% clean. The thought of like my dishwasher stuffed full of bags with like greasy crap and then when you don't put rinse aid in your dishwasher and then it leaves a little particles that you hate that. Hate it hate hate. Okay. And she writes in a quick response to why anyone wants to eat tomato blossoms. Remember, we had someone saying that we like you're getting weird tomatoes. Peggy brings up a good point here. If you want to increase the size of tomatoes, you can send out the blossoms or baby tomatoes, leaving the others to grow larger than they would have done with with the competition. While flowers probably wouldn't kill you unless you ate lots. Have you ever tasted them? Not a flavor I'd go looking for again. I suspect the person inquiring about their inability has not yet tried one garden Betty had a post on what she could find out about tomato plant toxicity but I was unable to access her sources. Long story short, she now uses some tomato leaf in her tomato sauce as a seasoning. And she thinks this for the show. By the way with tomato remember back I've ever done the distillation of tomato leaves for you? Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love that. So like for any of you have a road of app out there and can do like low temperature distillation at the end of the season. After you've gotten all your tomatoes in but you still have greenery, take the greenery and turn it into a distillate and that stuff my greenery has small spiders on it. Well, we told the story on the air right and how like you ship these parasites from California into your New York garden and obliterated everyone's tomatoes. And now people are a bit yeah, but you but because you don't control the garden you can't have tomatoes not planted for a year and no one there understands that like in order to kill this California Pest they need to let the land live fallow for a couple of years because like every plant you have has this like agricultural nightmare. Like who knows, you know, but I don't know. Maybe it'll spread maybe you've ruined the entire eastern seaboard knows Yeah. Anyway, should we take a break? Check? Yeah, yes. All right, coming right back with cooking issues.

Hello out there. It's Steve Jenkins. I'm with fairway markets. White Leghorn red wattle, Bourbon red, Navajo churro Baja. These are names you're likely to hear at a fairway butcher counter or any other counter today but before the rise of factory farming you would have and at Heritage Foods USA you still do. Heritage Foods USA exists to promote genetic diversity, small family farms and a fully traceable food supply. You see, we believe the best way to help a family farmers to buy from them and Heritage Foods is honored to represent a network of family farmers and artisanal producers whose work presents an immeasurable gift to our food system and to biodiversity the meat we celebrate whether its heritage Turkey, Japanese steaks, Berkshire pork or Navajo children lamb chops is the righteous kind from healthy animals of sound genetics that have been treated humanely and allowed to pursue their natural instincts it's a simple fact animals raised according to this philosophy tastes better and as we like to say you have to eat them to save them visit us at Heritage Foods usa.com For more information yeah,

oh yeah, eat him to save them.

So before we get back to the show, Dave I don't know if you saw but a little boy came up to the glass while me and stars we're doing our pre show show that nobody gets to hear every week show Yep, it's called the issues

we just completed that's how you that's how you that's how you fluff the crowd up but the

Yeah, exactly the opening act exactly. Nice. And this little boy came up to the glass window here and held up a napkin that said we love hammer.

Yeah, it said and Jack and Dave to in small letters, right?

Yeah, never last but it was mostly about

hammer. Yes. Well, that's that's typical Mr. Anastasia as much as she like the you know what? I'm like, It's not that I'm a jerk. I'm just really that's all you know what I mean? Like really? This wants a acceptance you know? Yes. Yeah. And wants to be accepted for who she is. It's true yeah. Hey, we got we got a friend of the program. Curious Claire writing and again, that's yeah. Hi Dave. When is raw to raw man is raw to raw and so now my favorite question Yeah, I think we ever got yes now I have the I have that bluster I Busta Rhymes is now going through my head. Yeah,

everything we make we make

raw rice now what he says I make

sure everything remains raw

raw. That's it. Can we call that up? Because I love it so much. Even for like playing like It's like we're like it's discussions like educational. It's educational. It's like a news program talking about Busta Rhymes who you know you know why Busta Rhymes disappoints me, right? Because like you know when you're young like being like a homophobe, I could be like you're you're young and just ignorant but he's been around the world like a long time and he's maintained his kind of homophobic stance. Yeah. Which is you know, not going to get into it. When is raw to to roll? I am scared of meat that is to read. Because I feel like I'm eating a live animal at what point does it go from moo cow to dinner? Curious. Clear. Okay. So what we have here is a psychological question. Right? Because

and I cooked steak last night perfectly. But then she used the zeros on the cut pieces and like obliterated it.

Well, how thick Did you cut the pieces? It was good steak. So, so thin. Yeah. Okay. So for instance, you can like Okay, so, the color of a meat is what people use to judge how done it is right? But the color of the meat can lie. You know quite clearly it can lie because the myoglobin which is what's providing the color, the primarily what's providing the color in the meat. The color that it takes on when it's cooked is dependent not just on the temperature that it's reached, but the environment in which it reaches that temperature. So the oxygenation state of it also the rate at which it's heated, right. So you can take a piece of meat that cooked low temperature, right, you can overcook it, right. And then when you cut it, and you let it sit for a while, undenatured, myoglobin will get oxygen hit on it, and boom, it'll is what we call cheering up. And it'll just turn this kind of bright, kind of, like freaky cherry color you've seen happen, right? And this can flip people out, right, which is why in general, when you're doing a sliced, we're doing the low temperature meat that's cooked for a long time, especially one that tends to have a lighter background like so you know, like, I don't know, I don't know. But like, what I'll do is if you slice it right beforehand, so it doesn't have a chance to cheer you up. And then people don't notice, or you can throw it flash it under a broiler, which is in essence what Claire did with the series all to just try and take that color off. Now you can do it fast enough for the series or that you don't actually overcook the meat if you're quick, I'm sure she hammered the hell out of it, because she's worried about it. But the knowing so you know, but the point is, is that we kind of, you know, they all saw we tasted it with our eyes first. So like, I can, I can cook a chicken like I say fully through but it has that persistent pinking at the bones of it cook slowly enough, and then people won't eat it even if they know it's cooked. So the where things actually become cooked is a can be measured based on like, what's happening with the proteins where it looks cooked depends on a number of variables that are very hard to control. So you know, you can shut your eyes. You know what I mean? Like this is like, like when I when you when I remember when I was doing eggs, like a long time ago when you first start doing low temperature eggs, right? They if you're not used to a low temperature egg, that's let's say 62 degrees, which is like the perfect yolk texture and that for like eggs Benedict, right and it had but it has like kind of a it has kind of a weird look on the white if you're not used to it, right? So for normal folk, we would pass them through simmering water, right? But really, it's just a visual thing because once you coat that egg with hollandaise sauce, ain't nobody complaining, you know what I mean? So, a lot of this stuff is really, really just visual. Now if you're talking on a textural basis, when's it done? That has a lot to do. That does have a lot to do with temperature, but also time. So if what you actually want is something that's firmer,

and it's not that it's like, am I eating an animal like, oh, you worry at all it's all bloody, bloody blood. It's not really blood, but I know. You know when you put the steak on the plate and juices run out she's like dead blood get it off and like,

well, even a high temperature cooked meats gonna have those juices in it unless you let it rest see that at rest. And if by God if I catch any of you cooking meat until the juices quote unquote run clear, I will find you like that's overcooking by so much. You know what I mean? Like, what a nightmare. Whoever invented that, but is a hater of food. It's like my, you know, grandma and grandpa used to have that like that, like, onion soup mix on top of the microwave, like piece of beef. You ever have that?

No, but I know. Yeah. Is

it dead yet? Is it dead? Listen, Claire. Claire. Claire, the animal has died once. Don't kill it again. So I'm gonna say, you know, dang. That didn't even answer the question.

I hope so.

I don't know Jack. You're back there to answer the question. I don't know. Yeah, I think so. One is road to road look. It's like I say it's a matter it's a matter of taste. But I will say cooks need to take into account the reaction of their diners right. So on a skirt steak. How do you cook it's does

just in a pan. Give it like

describe it. Oh,

they salted it. And then I put oil on the pan. Got it hot. Threw it in flipped it.

Okay, skirt steak is like what like a centimeter seven and a half? How many? How many? How long did he say?

Three minutes? You've said four minutes each side?

Oh so you cook you cooked it I cooked it? Yeah. So what was happening there is you cooked it and you probably didn't let it rest before you sliced it. No, I let it rest and realize that yeah, really for like five minutes not long and while you don't want to congeal and get nasty, and then I

cut it and there was the middle was perfect. But just seeing red

Cesare perfect or perfect perfect, perfect. Cesare Casella you know one of our good friends the man likes raw inside me char on the outside but he's he's is good meat so it's fine to that's how I like it. Yeah. What are you a black? You're black and blue man Pittsburgh. That tell you what I was talking to someone. I was like, she's like, I'm no fun. As people from Pittsburgh I was like I was like, hey Pittsburgh I hear Pittsburgh is a good town you ever been there check in there been there?

No, but I want to go I wanted the managers here at Roberta's opened a place in Pittsburgh

really? Anyway, so she goes yeah, Pittsburgh is great. If you like racists. I'm like, wow. Yikes, I did not know that. I think she was just in a bad mood. I don't know. So untasted call me and tell me what it's like in Pittsburgh, but I heard some nice town. They say her What am I from St. Louis. Awesome. Anyway, we got another question in from BJD. longtime listener several time email or want to try my modern hand at pellet the pork Allah beer was pellet meaning anyway, like a pipe like plate, right? I don't know. Yeah. of pork with beer. I've made it following ordains instructions in the lizelle Cookbook. It was delicious. Which probably means do not mess with success. I've circulated shoulders before smoking in the past. That worked well. I was wondering about circulating a pork shoulder dish that is traditionally braised would end up being a final product with only the sauce, reminding the diner of the original, I would have present more like steak. Am I a fool? I have 10 weeks of paternity leave with a four month old and a three year old Hey, good luck. It will be a battle I'm hoping to dial in some recipe ideas. Sunday suppers Listen, my memory of being with a four month old and a three year old because I had that exact thing is like you know, I'm not planning my cooking time. I'm like trying to plan when I can go pee. You know what I mean? You know, I'm saying it's like when can I like or a shower? Imagine like taking a shower. You're like Oh, shower. Anyway, I'm hoping to diamond some recipe ideas, Sunday suppers with my circulator. And my new rock espresso maker. While is the rock is that? Does anyone know? Is that the one with the two levers? Or is that some new one that are no electronic? I gotta look it up. I didn't look it up beforehand. Because I was testing some new Quick by the way, I shouldn't say the reason I might not be as prepared today as I normally am, is because I was testing some new equipment that we'll be talking about soon that Booker index is working on. Yes, yes. Does does the Stasi is the sole determiner of when we discuss the specifics of what we're doing? On Air? That's really not? What I mean like, Don't we have to see what we need to protect her? No. No, no, I will say well, let me finish the question. Any tips on things that try with either my circulator or our Okay, it says espresso in quotes, I gotta look up what it look up what it is, does are what are okay, capital R, capital O, capital K, I want to master a whole muscle meats that can get us through a week, I'll stop type typing and listening two days very respectfully. BJD. Okay, so congratulations on the four month old. Look, in my experience, which is Oh, yeah, it isn't whatsoever. In my ex, I haven't had it, I haven't used that thing for infusions. So I don't know. But I hear it's a very nice machine for making espresso. So you're gonna need it. So I would keep pounding out those double shots so that you can, you know, have your brain working. My I have extensive experience in doing braises in both the bag and in, in tradition, if you want something tastes like a traditional brace, brace, right, then you have to extremely over reduce the sauce that you're using, because the there's no reduction inside of the bag, right. So what happens is, is you make a sauce that you think is good. And you're like, oh, that's gonna be good. You use a stock, you make it rich, then you put your seared piece of meat into the bag. And then as it cooks, the moisture leaves the meat, right. And as the moisture leaves the meat, it waters down the sauce, the sauce is no longer the perfect flavor level it's been watered down. And so now when you pull out instead of tasting like a braise the example I always use it tastes like a pot if it's good, but it's not necessarily what you're looking for. It's more of a poached or cooked in broth kind of a situation rather than a braising phenomenon. If you want something that tastes braised, you have to go extremely reduced on the sauces and stocks that you put in like ping pong ball kind of reduction. The other thing is in a braised any veg that you put in, you should pre cook the veg because the veg will not cook in, in the bag. So typically what I'll do is I'll sweat out all of the stuff, pour in the stock reduce or whatever, you know, whatever sauce, reduce it down until once it's hard once it's done, it's like ping pong ball consistency of gelatinous nests, then I'll see are the meats throw them in and go to it. But now you're looking at having a much kind of a longer procedure. Now, even if you did that, what happens is is that let's take you could take a pork shoulder or you can take a short rib or you can take a you could take like a cargo van any like pick any brace that you want. What tends to happen is if you were to do a side by side tasting between a traditionally done one and a one that's done in a circulator, most people if you present them as being a traditional braise, we'll choose the traditional one. And the reason is that it is just a things tend to taste more meaty, right, they taste more like people traditionally want them. If you bend your expectations, and you tell people that what they're because, for instance, in a traditional braise on a piece of beef, that beef will get that kind of stringy braised texture and, and the gelatin will melt out of the meat and get everywhere. And so you'll have that kind of gooey like that stuff, right? That stick to it, like stick to your ribs, gooey, kind of like texture thing that people like. Whereas low temp, it's ordered with pork, it's the same thing low temp, the meat is going to retain its shape, it's going to retain a lot more of its moisture, it's going to have a different overall taste and texture. And if you don't prime people for it, then they tend to prefer the kind of traditional one even though I think that the low temperature one is like a delicious product in its own right. And so that can be an issue the on things like confetti or other long things I'll tend to when I want to do it in a bag, because bags can be convenient, right? So you cook it in a bag, then you can save it and it doesn't degrade over time. So you can you know, have it over the course of a week. But when I'm doing things like that, I'll typically do them at traditional temperatures so that I have that kind of traditional taste and texture. And so you can do that with a bag. Another thing you can do, and I can't believe I'm saying this, but if you want to do these long, because I don't even have one crockpot you ever have crock pot. And when I was a kid, did you enjoy this stuff, you could do like a traditional braise in a crock party kind of situation and then bag hot, exclude the air and then refrigerate. And you'll get a lot of the advantages of both things. I don't think I believe I've ever suggested that. But anyway, it depends on what you like for oh, I'm about to go to listen, stars things. I'm going to talk to her off air and we'll come back. I have some more questions I didn't get to I'll get to them. Next week. I hope you know unless I need to do another catch up thing. But maybe next week, we'll talk about our project that we're working on. Yeah. Well, this has been a cliffhanger. Oh yeah. cliffhanging cooking issues.