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I'm Damon volti host of the speakeasy you're listening to heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn, if you like this program, visit heritage radio network.org for 1000s more. Hello, and welcome to cooking

issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the heritage Radio Network reverse pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245. Actually, we're really on time this Yeah, today, right? Yeah. Crazy. We got a lot to go through some good, some great some terrible. If you have questions. Call your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 on the show, we have as usual Anastasia, the hammer Lopez. I'm good. Good. We have Dave slash David in the booth, how you doing? What a good. We have a special recurring guest and a secondary tasting panel. Because for those of you that listen to the podcast regularly, Mr. Garcia literally doesn't care about coffee merely because I do care. Really. It's the only the only real reason so we brought a lover of all things tastes related, and coffee as well and also an expert in coffee techniques that I am not. We got Paul from Popular Science. I don't I'm good. Yeah, I've had a lot of coffee already. Yeah, so you know and you can tweet him out at at Pope dot post dot notes at pote at Pop's, I eats I perhaps I eat so Cody's you're

on Twitter, Twitter, or you can email me at my secret private

strength and we have now I'm not sure his title but we have Cali Cali Cali. Cali. Cali. Cali freeze from sudden coffee. Correct? Correct. And what's your title over there

are definitely not chief coffee officer. But yeah, I have a coffee. I'm co founder.

Are you on the engineering side? Are you on the production side, the tasting side, the money side, the brew side?

There's two of us and I have a numbers guy. Josh is very much a numbers guy. And then I handled the rest.

So you're more production engineering. Alright. So he's on the show today, because I think you're probably here for the Coffee Festival we had in New York this weekend, right? Yeah, yeah. Which I went to we could talk more about that later. But we had a number of people actually tweeting on and I think asking even whether we had tried this sudden coffee II and so we're gonna try it in a minute. You want to go over what the you've had this like, Well, how do you start with your Kickstarter situation? What were you?

We will I started working on it about a year ago so sudden coffee is some coffee that says really good,

right? That's it. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention what it is is, is instant coffee that's supposed to actually be good now is it tastes like coffee or it's just good in its own right but isn't the same thing as coffee?

Well, we think it's pretty good as as coffee. That's definitely what we aim for. Okay, so it's not a third product. No, really, I think we're what we want to be doing is creating another way of like, alternative way of drinking good coffee. It's not meant to replace brewing coffee herself or going out to a coffee shop, but rather just hope you're in good coffee when you wouldn't be able to otherwise. Yeah, yep.

So now your main competitor, then is Starbucks still selling that via thing where it was was called via con Dios. What the hell was that called?

Yeah. Via whatever. Yeah. Why would you

choose something that has alternate English pronunciations?

It's good question

via via,

you can even hire, you can hire a very expensive brand agency who will tell you that, that it sounds sophisticated, I guess.

Do you think it sounds sophisticated?

I don't think so.

When I Brooks is definitely the guy that doesn't have special names for sizes of coffee.

Do you know that back in the day, I used to get into arguments, I think people have become much more flexible. Now. We might have talked about this years and years ago and stuff. But you would actually appreciate this. Because this is the kind of thing to start to do. I'd walk in I would like I would like a double espresso. And they're like doppio. And I would say double. And they will say yeah, they would say don't do and I was like no, I would like a double. It would just I would see how long I can keep it going. And it used to be basically forever. They would just they would go like W and then go and you know, there's no need to go into like what the hell Tom means because it has no meaning. But yeah, I don't think I don't like things that sound like spending via sounds like via duct. Yeah. And ductwork doesn't say anything I want to drink out of or Viagra. Oh, that well, that probably that's that's a good, you know, I'll certainly err before but my son Booker is now 14. So it'd be incredibly inappropriate for him to say this. But when he was a little kid, he used to say, I'm going to put batteries in my penis when he's a little kid before he knew what it meant. And I thought that'd be the best Viagra slogan would beat the hell out of like all these like Cialis and Viagra things if they if a dude just walked in was like, Yo put batteries in your penis Viagra boom, and then walked away. How many were that cell because batteries, you know, has that they're kind of you know, you've put some batteries in it becomes like a Maglite you know what I mean? It's very strong,

very stronger. Yeah. You can shape the pills to look like little battery like little batteries.

Yeah, it works. It's got the energizer. It's got the energizer reference. Anyway, I think it's genius. And my son Booker has a promising future as an ad. Exec, I think anyway, so back to back to sudden coffee. Before we tasted, I have other stuff to go through. So explain the process. What makes us different from viaduct coffee, or Folgers which as Anastasia believes is the best part of waking up is definitely not true.

Okay. Before I go there, I think a little bit of context is sort of important. I would be extremely skeptical if somebody came on our air and said that this is isn't coffee that doesn't suck. My background, I've been working in coffee as a barista for like 10 years, one of the Finnish barista championships twice and I was ranked ninth in the world last year, ran a couple of coffee shops and all sinky also the best coffee teacher I think. And basically what I do mean coffee is a really concrete, great way of making somebody's day better. And I want to make great coffee as easy and fun and accessible as possible. And I was really frustrated by how unscalable doing a coffee shop is. So does that close that about a year and a half ago and started figuring out what would be a more like a better way to make good coffee happen. And I studied Food Science at University of Helsinki, so had a pretty good idea of instant coffee and why it sucks.

And first of all, for those of you that don't know, Finns have one of the highest per capita coffee consumptions in the world. True, but you also like traditionally drink it. Some people drink it with grounds. So you also have like strange health anomalies due to high consumption of grounds. Is that not true?

Yeah, and especially sort of, there's a lot of theories about basically the cholesterol or like cholesterol, increasing effects of drinking also, unfiltered coffee. Yeah. But the vast majority is like drip coffee. Yeah.

But you're like you're that much math kind of people that you're like, I just hit the ground. I just, that's it. Who needs a filter? Totally. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Neil's Nora and my friend. You finish work. He's Swedish but he has finished jokes where like you're you're drinking when you're drinking with a fin. And the Swede says to the fin skull, and the fin says, Are we here to drink or to talk? So you talk more than most fins? I would expect?

I know that's why they kicked me out. And I thought I always a bit of a bit of a US.

Yeah. Nice. Sorry. Go ahead. So like you, like you've said more than the entire country of Finland. Pretty much. Okay, good. All right. So go ahead. So basically what you're saying is you have credentials now what?

Yeah, so isn't coffee is is liquid coffee that's dehydrated, right. And usually the big companies that have been making now have the intention of making as much of it for as little money as possible without really caring how it tastes like, although it

is technologically sophisticated process, right? It is extremely, like evaporation we capturing rejoining the solids with the theoretically with the aromas. Yeah, yeah,

theoretically, but I mean, like, if you tasted doesn't taste great for what's been out on the market so far. And that's because they essentially started with like, really cheap, crappy coffee, but nobody else wants to drink. Take that roasted and the extracted twice, which like blew my mind, when I first heard about it, I

mean, actually, like, steep it twice to make two beverages like a like a, like a small beer and a lot like, like, like rewashing.

Yeah, but even more, so the extracted like normal temperature, it was called the rim extraction. So at about like 100 degrees Celsius for for whatever time. And normally out of coffee, you can extract about 30% of the mass. So that's like water soluble part and rest of cellulose is ground to dump. What they do is that they so they breed wine once and then they brew it twice second time at like 15 bars pressure, 180 degrees Celsius for hours. And what happens that pressure hemicellulose changes and becomes water soluble. And you can go from like 20% extraction yield, which is the stuff you extract, which is what you normally want to do to up to 60%, which makes a lot of sense if you want to get as much stuff out of there out of the beaten for as little money as possible.

Well, does that also, do they need the increase? In other words, like, Would an alternate technique with if they weren't looking for pure number of extraction? Is the hemicellulose help in bulking later? Is that another reason why they do it? Could they add another solids bulking agent? Or is that

it's partly for that? So they what they do after that is they basically combine them and then essentially boil it down. So if that brand vacuum just distillation, right? Yeah, yeah. And then same like for orange juice, right. And most of it is spray dried. So they actually use that sort of the the added solids, it helps them to spray dry, right?

They don't have to add molto, right, they don't write that in maltodextrin. Now, but from my impression there is a vacuum distillation run, then a spray dry, right then a recomp combining and then an air drying or something like there's many steps. It takes a lot of steps to make even crappy instant coffee.

Right? And I don't even know like what else like all the stuff that goes into a factory. They haven't turned me one. But but there's a bunch of stuff going and then it's like spray dried, so dried with hot air. And it's not definitely a great way to preserve any flavors that might be in there are rumors that they've already de aromatize at that point, for the most part. Yeah, most for Yeah. So they actually once you have the dry coffee, they sprayed some of the coffee aroma and oil into that ground to make it smell and taste fresher. Right. But I mean, to me this like whole thing doesn't make any sense. Like, we were thinking that what if we? What if we just started with the best possible coffee you can find right? Extracted really nicely, and dehydrated in a way that really preserves all the flavors in there or as much as we can.

By the way, I've never tasted instant coffee.

What really never What's wrong with you?

Why would I do that?

Well, I mean, that's the thing. I don't blame you. Yeah,

I mean, have you tasted it says yeah, I mean, yeah, obviously. What about you, Paul?

I believe I've tasted it. It doesn't really I think

we used to have it in my house when I was growing up because my mom would use it in cake recipes. Right? Yeah. Well,

should we trust them now?

Yeah. Okay. So but before, like, what's your technique? When I get milk and sugar? Whoa. You can but I will stare at you strangely with busted up by. Yeah, actually, David, can we can we get some because otherwise, the Stasi is going to hem and haw the rest of the day and say that I'm a bad person more than normal. Yeah, we'll give him or her. That's fine. Yeah. All right. So so what's your take? Are you using straight freeze drying? Or what are you doing?

Kind of? So we like we started as a look, we're a San Francisco based startup now. So we started as this famous guy called Paul Graham, who says that do things that don't scale? Like first, get a product done, see if you can make something you like Yeah, right. And if somebody wants to pay you that before you figure out how to scale that. So we started by having myself in a garage and so my neighborhood with a single group espresso machine pulling a lot of espresso shots that we then kind of filter in to through our process and essentially free trade.

Okay, now one of the problems with espresso in general, I'm sure you're familiar is that it's, it's like like, changing constantly on a chemical basis the minute it's pulled, so like a cold espresso even as carefully rewarmed as possible in a completely static environment with no anything. Just changes over time or espresso keeping keep kept at a constant temperature will change drastically. The overtime even if it's sealed. So it's not just simply a volatile loss like it's actually changing as it's sitting there more so the drip, right? Yeah. I mean drip was also changing but that's like on the order of couple of hours it's kept properly right? We radically changing versus espresso which is like changing radically quickly No

Yeah, I mean drip coffee you have the biggest change is the stuff called chlorogenic acids that start breaking down and because of due to that like bitter, nasty sour taste you like the airport taste?

That's what Miss dassia likes the most so if you don't have that she's not gonna like

it. I'm sorry. We like I couldn't delivery a little bit of oxygen like oxidation, but that's about it.

Yeah, so now Anastasia, like preferred, I guess weird. She likes really good wine. I was about to make a jug wine joke, but she actually likes really good wine said with milk and sugar and milk and sugar. And remember, she had her first food job. I think real food job was with Cesare Casella, who will who would put ice cubes and Dom Perignon, given the choice. And by the way, he can do whatever he wants, because he's treasuring, Casella, United saying some people have earned the right with their palette over time to do whatever the hell they want. Yep. Okay, so you're essentially freeze drying, right?

Yeah, but we do a bunch of other stuff, too. Which,

is there some sort of patent involved here? Or is it a trade secret situation or what it's more like a trade secret situation? I will mention this. Not knowing a coffee is notoriously difficult to capture as a distillate. I don't know whether anyone out there listening knows that. But the aroma of coffee very hard to capture and keep in, especially in a non alcoholic situation, virtually impossible to get a decent thing, and I think it's because so much of so much of the coffee character is in the is in the larger molecular weight crap that's left behind in the cup. So would you agree with that?

Yeah, we've actually been like, one of the interesting parts of this working on this is that I get to, to geek out about stuff like this. And you can certainly capture some of the aroma. But it does not. So yeah, it's true. Like a big part of it is sort of a heavier molecule of weights that you just cannot do heavy enough that you cannot extract them, like distill them out of there, which is really interesting. And sort of all the like, the dimensions, you get into flavor.

Alright, so I actually this is what we'll do, why don't we take this coffee and then we'll, we'll, we'll talk about the coffee thing. And then after the break, we'll come back as those beginning of the show, and I'll talk about the other stuff I've done. Does that make sense? We'll just stay with coffee. We're going to stay with coffee. Coffee. No, no, I asked. I'm going to have to do I have questions I have to get to and I have also you'll stay around and tell it and we'll have a look at so let's face it. How long was it? How instant is instant?

It's It's very sad. Oh, yeah, not

not what's it sudden, by the way

for you when you leave? Whenever you're really working with SpaceX?

No, that was our April Fool's joke. These

cups are warm. Enemies of quality all around us feel that stuff for that? No, I usually you miss dasya is frightened of cups that have like grit on the outside. Their grip. Yeah, no, I think it's the dishwasher. How are you going to lick it and find out? No, see whether it's due

to taste like why did you decide to start with espresso rather than drip coffee? Oh,

what's up good questions.com

It's a good question. I mean, it's literally only the concentration really, like there's nothing intrinsically great about espresso. Just the fact that what there's

nothing intrinsically great about espresso. What kidding?

I mean, well, I mean, so drip coffee would have a concentration of about 1.5% like 1.5 to say has 98% Water whereas espresso is roughly like 10% Coffee solids and 90% water so when you when you can only like basically dehydrated some amount of stuff makes a lot more sense to dehydrate espresso.

Do you sell it in these tubes? Yes.

How do they how many come in?

How many when you buy

you can you can choose it's like between eight and 24

cups Now have you caught up with production because apparently you can't buy this stuff right?

Yeah we're like the biggest issue has been producing enough so we're now we're now we're really working on scaling up the production that hot enough that water attribute good so I like boiling earlier don't want to do this and then I will get this so will be skill of like caught up in production. And by end of October latest I think

I think the Stasi likes dumping the coffee out. Let me take a look at it. My eyes are really bad for reasons I'll discuss later. If you want to take calls on this part of the show or wait till later. Yeah, let's see. Especially if they're

related to Well That was sudden it is like can

I use the sudden thing as a steering device? Oh, it stops you wanting to make yours first. Is that hanging on to Paul? Oh, you did? Right.

So what I'm doing now I just have brown powder in the bottom of a cup and pouring water and you get a cup of coffee. Which sounds like coffee

do we do we have a color related to coffee or anything else? We have a color I don't know if it's related to coffee let's take it what were the color you're on the Eric asked me any question about Coffee along with whatever the question we're gonna ask. Okay,

I have no questions about coffee. Sorry, that's I don't drink coffee. Wow, I like it an ice cream though. You're the opposite. I know you're lukewarm about that. Dave,

you're the opposite of me.

You know exciting coffee is really awesome with ice cream. You just mix it and become super awesome.

work for the company is something anyway, so what's gonna go ahead with your question while we're making the last couple of sudden coffee hours? Last two cups. Sir, all right. Yeah, you

guys are you guys are a little blurry there. But I'm gonna give you my question here, which is has to do with ice cream? The by the way, this is Brian in New York. And my question has to do with making basil or any kind of herbs. Ice cream, because I've seen a bunch of different recipes. I've tried a few I can't figure out which is best. Some say heat up the base. And then blend in your your earth. Other say just do a cold infusion with the base on stage do a cold infusion in milk. I'm wondering kind of what what's the best, best way to get the best flavor is without getting any of those those off notes?

Yeah, that's a good question. I can No, I can't remember if I've ever like how soon do you have to? How soon do you have to wait before you turn it in? What's your turning? What what are you using to turn it?

I mean, I don't I don't have any of the herbs on the right now.

I don't mean that. But like what kind of week? What kind of machinery? I tried it but are you doing Paco? Or you're asking me how soon? No, no. What kind of machine are you using?

Oh, what kind of Yeah, just one of those trees in the bowl? Kind of machines.

Right? Okay. So here are the issues, right? If you want it to not go nasty once it's frozen it the sad part is it probably will continue to go nasty because you're going to be hyper concentrated hyper concentrating the enzymes and whatever's left to the liquid phase. But it will also happen. I don't know what a win whether the concentration will win or whether the reduced temperature is going to win in terms of making it stay nice. I think that the correct answer is not going to be is not going to be blanching it because then you're not going to get any of the kind of fresh flavors that you want. If you're going to use something like a pacojet, I would just freeze the leaves hole and then pacojet it down but you're not going to do that. You could do you could blend the herbs in like a little bit of like high proof ethanol and then use the high proof ethanol blended herbs in with the base and that will it will mess with your freezing point depression slightly but the that I believe that the Alcohol should help denature the poly phenol oxidase enzymes and a little bit of ascorbic acid but not enough to mess with you're not enough to mess with your milk milk would be would be helpful in that as well. But I wish I had more personal experience working on it because basil ice cream is a thing you see, so people must know how to do it. If anyone in the chat room David had given me anything. One sec, let me check to see if anyone in the chat room chimes in with anything obviously for just punch color without going brown but it won't have fresh flavors, dried herbs, dried mint will stay green because the drying process gets rid of the poly phenol oxidase enzymes. They're just talking about Starbucks instant coffee. Well, time to get on it and go to the chat room and without thinking about I'm sure someone will call in or tweet me and tell me what the correct answer is. And we'll read it out on the air next time if we can.

Okay, great. So definitely not blanching your hands I Blanche.

I'm not anti Blanche. Unless I'm anti Blanche. If you want the flavor of fresh basil for that you should read Harold McGee section on pesto in the Curious Cook wherein he tries various different techniques for keeping pesto pesto nice and green. One of which is blanching which is deemed poor.

In terms of theory, I don't care about color I care most about flavor.

Well, yeah. But the problem is color and flavor are linked to the brown notes. The brown color is linked with oxidized flavor in those situations. Brown notes. Brown notes. Yeah. Brown and town. Yeah, the which is where we're going with coffee. Anyway, I'm sure someone will tweet me the answer and we'll and we'll figure it out. Speaking of singing Broadway musicals All right, thanks. Thanks. We'll get you the answer. Not this week, but we'll get you the answer. So like Broadway musicals the entire morning this morning as I was getting ready with sun coffee. I was singing suddenly see more to my son. I don't know that they suddenly see more you know that song Paul, the you know

that he loves musicals. You know that he's like a musical. I didn't know that.

Yeah, any way that's a great I forget her name a Little Shop of Horrors with Rick Moran is disappointing he wasn't in the in the recent Ghostbusters reboot. Were you one of those anti Ghostbusters reboot people Paul You strike me as as could either be one or not.

There was not one there is not anti not anti

virus proceeded people so anti women.

I think it destroyed their childhoods women were anti.

No, I think because women were playing the roles.

Yes, the new Ghostbusters are all women, which destroys the childhoods of people who saw it growing up in which the original Ghostbusters were not women. Is that actual truth? Yes, that's what I've heard that

yes, Dave. Thank God Paul's here because you'd be like,

I don't believe you. I didn't say that. I just didn't know. I didn't know the the answer II. Well, every single living Ghostbuster was in that movie, with the exception of Rick Mirantis who's like known misogynist, Rick Mirantis for reals

was not in the movie because of the women in the movie. Oh, that's

why I thought you had some actual information about Rick Maraniss? You're like she wasn't in the movie. Therefore he hates women. It's not your kids. That's the problem. People working with the Stasi you never know whether she is just like saying something that is actually backed up with information or whether she's just blowing smoke up here. You never know. Never know. All right. So let's talk about this. What do you think? Coffee man like you? Well, the Stasi likes it. But that is not a vote of confidence, my friends.

It's got a lot more body than I would expect from an instant coffee. Why is that?

I think it's a it's a variety of things. The I think ideal flavor balance we find is a little higher concentration than for a regular filter coffee. So instead of like, one point five, it's closer to two. Yeah, just gives you a little more solid. But I think it's also so originally I thought that it would be just like the same coffee that we use, but not so interesting version of him. And now I think it's more of just a different kind of representation or different brewing method in a way. So you lose some of the acidity through

the person. Yeah, it's not a very acidic hit. It's also not very bitter. It's not

very bitter. Yeah. So I mean, we what we try to do is get a coffee that is really sweet is really balanced and like nicely, sort of big body and low acidity and a little bitterness or what's

interesting is it almost tastes like an espresso profile but as a drip that as a drip water balance,

right. And the cool thing is that you can also drink it with higher concentration like espresso style, if that's how you like it.

Can you make us a 10% one?

Sure. Heat up the water again now. What was the name of the of the actress? She was so awesome and Lucia horse

in the movie? Yeah,

she was so awesome.

I don't remember the movie.

I like to anyway theatrical. Of course she did you know born raised New Yorker. We in that the theater, okay. So, so So Nastasia likes it which as I say is not by the way in stasis brother. So like, it can be on the air. He could pull up a mic. I see. Him and his fiancee are sitting there in the way just staring into the glass is so so weird. Your whole family lurkers Anastasia lurkers. So when you think you're going to be up and running with production,

we're I mean, we're like all hands on deck working on it, where it's getting better all the time. And by early October, we should be in sort of much, much better point.

David you coffee man. love coffee. Well, why didn't you get a cup and try this stuff? Because I gotta make the wheels turn here. Oh, now you have wheels in the sky. keep on turning go into my head. By the way, I don't know where I'm going to be tomorrow. By the way, David's Ellen green. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, okay. So

you want to do a break and then come back with your let's do a break.

We'll come back. Yeah, happy birthday. We'll get some coffee. The stasis brother will come in. And we'll we'll pretend like the show is starting again with with whole new whole new set of like questions and answers. Okay, coming back the cookie issues

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and we're back. What's upstairs? All right. over the break, we tasted some espresso strength. Sudden coffee was espresso strength. Obviously, no crema not an emotion, you know, you need to sell is you need to sell a little like a frothing device. So you can be like, you could do an espresso strengthening. And like frost some air into it. Right? What do you you don't like that idea? No, not a chromosome? Oh, in general? No. But why do you not like crema? Because you've tasted it separately? And it's different constituent? Because it's coming out mainly on the part of the extraction, right? Is it you don't like what is it you don't like about it? It's really bitter what it is. But is that because of what is that? Because that it is frothy? Or is that because of when it's happening during the shop? Have you actually tried frosting your product? And does it taste better?

So what I think about a cream ice cream is basically that foam where you have basically like oils, proteins and just like physical like unsuitable parts of the coffee bean. And I think it's those many those kind of bitter unsuitable parts of the beam that are just so fine that they go through the middle middle filter that make it more bitter. Right,

but but hear me out here, if you're looking at him, if you're looking at like machine profile on crema, right, the way that used to be said was that lever machines produce a lot less crema, but have a lot better will have a lot. Some people like the flavor profile of lever machines better. And the reason is, is because they're pushing less water through at the end because the pressure is dropping as the spring goes down, right as a spring, right? So you're getting less crumb on that, because you're pulling out less at the end at the end is when that like last floating stuff, and you're extracting that stuff out, right? And that's why the creamer is bitter because that's where it's coming from. Whereas we all know that espresso has higher foaming capacity than regular coffee when you're making regular drinks with it. So merely the fact that there is foam on top isn't necessarily mean that that foam is better. It's where the foam is coming from in an actual regular produce espresso shot. Right? Or could be I wish I go back to my other question. Have you actually tried filming your product to see whether you like it,

I actually haven't tried it with just like filming the whole thing. But I kind of tried shaking it and doesn't sort of produce like if you try making a fresh out of it. It doesn't like Oh really? Like film quite as like, doesn't feel the same way as Nescafe.

Again, Nescafe? Like you've lost me there, but like, but like, in other words, like if I was to take this product, just ask us like, don't drink all my stuff. Don't rank on my garbage. Like what if you were to take if you were to take an espresso shot, right? Let it cool and a cup take you know, some sudden coffee to the same the same extraction density right? And then you were to add milk and Shake with ice with the beverage where the regular espresso foam appreciably better on the shake.

Probably would. But that's also what we do after we brew the coffee we you know, we do a full trade, which literally reduces the amount of frame I'm removing some of those undissolved solids that personally I don't enjoy the coffee and I like we want to have removed

you could sell those today. Right?

Oh no, I actually like labor shots best. Like Like when I've had side by side. Same barista same beans. Same grinder like same espresso machine Corporation. Yep. Love that's actually when I say when I've had was one time it was Victoria Arduino. I had one of their levers versus they're not and they're lever machine while I was like,

oh my god, I love this show.

Have you had pressure profiled?

Yes, we could talk about that. At the end of the show. We'll talk about the coffee. We'll talk about the coffee you know that I built my own pressure profile or like years ago with with I shunted, I shunted out my proton pump with a with a ball valve and was able to profile pressure but it sucked because I had to reach underneath my counter and then put my head up to look at the gauge to see where I was going. But I could I could dial between 100% bypass zero pressure and all the way up to nine bar and then just go anywhere in between but it was it's real touchy, like throttling pressures with a ball valve like that is is touchy because it's not linear. Anyways. Great. I like like one out of eight shots, I was able to get like a pretty smooth ramp from you know, like, like full spring pressure, which has been a while but it's like, it's like 100 And like, right when the spring releases is like 100 And I think 50 psi, I don't know what bar and then it goes down to well below Oh, maybe less, maybe eight and a half bar, I don't know anyway, but it goes down to well below a normal thing at the end of the shot, because obviously it goes down. So I was able to get decent shots that way, it was just so much of a pain in the butt. And then I was going to try to build one with a servo that would do it. But then eventually, I didn't do it for many years. And eventually it became like a thing. But now a lot of people like I was talking to the landlord so called people yesterday, in fact, and those guys were like, people are so worried about all these variables, they don't even control like the most important thing, which is the dose, they don't even control the dose. And so they're like all this pressure profile stuff whatever great. He's like the fact that matter is that now temperature profile everyone's got temperature profiles going where like wrench Helios new machine, they can do a temperature profile. In fact, one of their temperature profiles was they started colder in the beginning and end hotter, which is the weirdest thing ever, because you're like, intentionally producing a tart shot, right? So you start with your extraction at a low temperature, you're sucking out like very acidic shot, which like the only people I know who make like, yeah, it's not it's like a purposely aesthetic shot. But I guess some people like it, right? Kind of like what do you what do you say about this? You were at the show? You saw this machine, right?

Oh, yeah. I mean, I think it doesn't make any sense. I don't really believe in the temperature profiling. I mean, doesn't make sense, in the sense that if you have colder coffee in the beginning might like absorb more energy and your mind might want to have a higher temperature in the beginning. And then basically, like, ramped down.

Yeah, but I wouldn't be ramping ramping. But the other way around, doesn't make any sense to me.

Like it's not gonna it's a different thing and having like a sour or acidic and that's only going to make it like sour like, three unpleasantly like like tasting a citrus,

right? It's not gonna it's not gonna make it like want whiny or more Kenyan tasting. Definitely not. Yeah. And I mean, like that crap and espresso by the way, do you like those like African acidic, whiny notes and espresso shots? Or no, I guess not. Tasting your coffee, so I guess not.

Right. Well, so the thing is that it's a decent Ethiopian coffee called because so and it is a lot more acidic in the beginning. And we're, um, we're still very early on. We're working on preserving more of that acidity through the process that we started with something that's kind of more acidic.

So we have oh, because it gets blunted by the process. Yeah. So if you taste

this against any other Indian coffee, it's actually a lot more acidic than, than anything else, but it does not taste that acidic compared to like a drip coffee. Right? Mmm. And I mean, personally, I prefer more. I was kind of very sort of acidic profile. And now I prefer more like, just a bit more balanced, sweeter approach.

Alright, so since you're an espresso guy, where are we, as he's also saying, I was discussing with the LA Marzocco people. I thought we're gonna talk about this after Walmart. I can't stop I can't stop myself. This this E. Cheese. Okay, so where are we in the where are we in the espresso volume wars? Are we coming back up to normal shot volumes? Are we still with these like skim cup craziness is

I think we're coming back to like normal volumes, like one to two ratios, like one part coffee grounds to like two pairs coffee in the cup. So we would use something like 20 gram dose of grande coffee and like 40 grams of coffee in like

2001. Like, people are like, I'm using 16 grams, and they're pulling like what would now be like a long shot. And now then, like it's gone, but you're just coming somewhere in between?

Yeah, well, me. So like, 10 years ago, when I started in coffee, it was like super ristretto. So like, using the same like one to one like using a ton of coffee and then having Yeah, very little coffee. Yeah. Like like,

oh, so Oh, six or seven stuff like that. It was like, it was literally Yeah, they were filling triple baskets. And then like, you know, I was like, where? where's the where's the coffee? Right? You know what I mean? It's like,

which I mean, I think it's really bad. Like what the most important thing in coffee is sort of extraction yield, which is how much stuff you extract out of the grounds. And the more water you use, the higher extraction yield you can get, because we have seen a lot of coffee, but more water to do the job. And so, at some point, like a couple years ago, we went to the extreme like, people using 20 grams coffee, even like 60 grams at a cup, which in some ways can be very enjoyable. It's a it's a different type of coffee. But I think now it's it's somewhere around like the sort of closer to regular.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, in my mind, I still make it more like you would have gotten in 2001. Because I guess I don't know. That's what I like or whatever. That's me. Okay, now hold on. Now off coffee for a minute. We can go back and coffee later.

Dave, what happened to your face? Well,

before we talk about what happened in my face, I showed you the face first. No, no, no, no not gonna face first. Let's, let's first take up now. Let's take a minute. Really sad news. On Friday. Dorothy can Hamilton the founder of the French Culinary Institute now the International Culinary Center died in a car accident in her beloved Nova Scotia. And I don't really know the particulars of it yet. I don't know because, you know, they they just publicly announced it I think on Sunday night, I think or something like that, right, Anastasia. So, you know, Dorothy, she was the only person in the car. As far as I know, the only person killed in the car. She founded the French culinary in like 1984 Right. Around the same year actually the on food and cooking came out. And you know, she was kind of the force behind a lot of what was good about culinary education in the United States for many, many years. She gave me my first real job in the in the food world. You know what, I was the director of culinary technology there for years. With Anastasia, and yeah, so as you know, it's not she was not steak was not nothing was very terrible, terrible news. And my heart goes out to to her family and to the whole community at the ICC. Yeah, it's terrible news. So anyway, yeah. So I don't know. We should have done that. Right. Before the break, I guess. Yeah. I don't want to talk about anything. Yeah. For a minute. But yep, we should have we should have or we should have never handled anything well, because a moron but yeah, a lot of people. A lot of people have gone through that school to affect a lot of people. Most recently she did the she did the expo in Milan, the food expo in Milan. So just you know, stayed super in it super active. You know, one of the things I was there, she wrested control away from investors and got the school back and she's just, you know, she was she was a force to be reckoned with. Dorothy. Anyway. Terrible, terrible. So on to onto the what is how do you transition with that under what I was doing? Last week? I was in Catalonia last week, giving a talk at Alesia. The LISI foundation familiar with this? Yes. Well, you familiar with this instance? Yeah. Alicia is the cooking foundation. I think it was founded by Ferghana and the elderly people or it's founded by the Catalan Government, and he, he helped out with it. But it's in the middle of this town. It's near a town called Navarro class because I can't pronounce the other one. The other town is something literally like fruity bags. It's like fruity bags, but it's in it's in Catalan. So I don't even know how it's like sweet to buy or something like this, and fruity bags. And it's correct fruity bags. And it's in and I was there. And actually, interestingly, I was doing a demo for a bunch of olfactory scientists. And I was using the actual centrifuge that was the first one that varan had used. And by the way, not nearly as good as the one that we used to use the French culinary boom stars. Yay. Yeah, now the flip side is he got his new so you know, he didn't have to clean all the rabies out of it like we did, right. Yeah, it wasn't sprayed with like CSI juice like ours was but the also I use the actual rotary evaporator that that the Roca is used to do their oyster distillate way back it was a No comment. No comment. It turns out that rotary evaporators need quite a bit of maintenance to have them work properly and it wasn't set up like it was a painting. So like literally, I and they know it like they're like you know, we don't they don't really do that kind of work anymore to LISI but they have all of the stuff leftover so I was like okay, so I went to go use it because I was doing and actually this fits into a question there was someone who asked about not sweet honey, we could go and I have commented that I can't remember whether I've done a honey distillate but when I went there I was supposed to mess with olfaction right? And when I use gymnemic acid and gymnemic acid is the is the material that knocks out your sense of sweetness for about half hour and the Stasi has done it you've done it right Paul with me I never had I never have tastes terrible tastes like tastes like like the bottom of a Rodin cage is awful. And but you swirl it around and then for like half hour or more sometimes you can't taste anything sweet. So white sugar tastes like sand. Everything just it just knocks out everything it's completely unpleasant but it's we use it to teach kind of what sugar does to texture so you can just remove this sensation of sweetness and it knocks out artificial sweeteners. It knocks out the effect of miraculous so you know it ruins that party to it. It knocks out brown sugar doesn't taste sweet things that smell sweet to you but but like candies, things that you associate with sweetness don't taste sweet at all. What is brown sugar tastes like sand with a little bit of a butterscotch he hit but the melting sand but honey still tastes sweet and so I distilled honey there and serve them honey distillate with none of the sugar and they all agreed it tasted sweet. So there's something about honey that we perceive as sweet. That's not that's olfaction based does not have anything to do with the sweet receptors because you're sweet receptors are totally wiped out by opinion, Nick acid. So that's going back to the question that Andrew asked last week. So anyway, so while I was there, I also did some oldies but goodies I used to do. I did a thing years and years ago, called the cheese course where I would take wines, I would take like three sweet wines, I would take off the brandy and a rotary evaporator and then reduce them down to about 60 or 70 bricks, so they were like a syrup that have never been heated. And then serve them both with cheeses and an array of like, you know, array of toppings. And so anyway, so I did one of those cheese courses. So I had to evaporate the stuff down in the rotary evaporator was a little bit leaky, so I couldn't get this stuff that down, but they had a vacuum oven. So I ripped the vacuum oven apart, and like put a cold trap built a cold trap on the output of the vacuum oven, because I had a really good vacuum pump, then stuck this stuff in a vacuum bag and taped it to the interior, the cylinder of the vacuum and it was able to get all of my product down to 70 bricks in the vacuum oven. And I was like I had to go to a lunch when the lunch was over and had to go get the stuff out of the vacuum. And now all of Alicia is like all this glass. It's all glass everywhere. Glass, walls, glass doors, just freaking glass everywhere. And like, I guess for like HVAC reasons, they staggered the door. So you have to go in one. And then you have to turn and go in another and then the kitchens there. But the kitchens all glass, all glass. And so like this thing I don't know, I thought it was a frickin door. And, and when I walk I walk fast, especially when I'm going to get some I don't run because you don't run in the kitchen. Right? You walk fast, I work fast and bone right into the glass like right into the glass, like right on the point of my forehead because when I walk, I walk with my head slightly down and slightly turn to one side. It's my kind of thinking mode. So as you've seen that a million times, right? Slightly down and slightly to one side. And so I hit right above my left eyebrow like like, boom, I didn't pass out but I did one of those like I did one of those like sumo squats down. And it was in like, just stayed there for like frozen like in like, like, like, like, you know, like you can't see because you're on a radio but like one of these.