Hello, everybody, and welcome to a brand new series on heritage radio network called the culinary call sheet where we give a peek into the back kitchen of culinary media. I'm your host, April Jones,

and I'm your co host, Darren bresnitz. Part of why we started the show was to offer an unofficial mentorship for anyone who's interested in learning about all aspects of food and video, whether that's TV, social media online, or just something you want to do for fun.

Absolutely what was once niche or a little silly, as I'm sure you remember, Darren, when we started out, this man has now become such a massive playing field for so many creatives using food as the medium.

It's something that has driven us professionally and personally, for so many years. What excites me the most about this show is that we're going to sit down with some of the industry leaders to hear how they made it and what drew them into this industry.

With 20 years in the culinary production game ourselves. We're hoping we can give through these conversations an insider's view into personal stories from the field, as well as an in depth behind the scenes look into some of the most popular food programming. In today's evolving culinary media landscape.

We'll be covering everything from how to style your food, to how to license IP, to developing your own ideas, and some tips from the masters of how to host your own show.

Yeah, it's a little bit of conversation, how to and how do you do the things that you do in color media, which I'm so excited about? I love so many of the guests that are coming on this season. We have talent from Food Network from Vice media eater refinery 29,

we've met some of the best people in the world both in front of and behind the camera. And we're bringing them all together to share their stories, their delicious adventure and their unique journey into this crazy world.

So to be the first to hear our episodes when they launched this fall, go to wherever podcasts are streaming and hit subscribe and make sure to give us a follow at the Culinary call sheet on Instagram.

This episode is brought to you by Joule the immersion circulator for suevey by ChefSteps. Order now at chefsteps.com/joul e

Hello, and welcome to cookie issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking just coming to you live on the heritage radio network from Roberta's pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn every Tuesday at 1245 or you know, one depends on how you feel. Yeah. How're you guys doing? Uh, got a got with me today? No. Nastasia hammer Lopez. Yeah. She's in Chicago. She got to fly out yesterday in that awesome, awesome. Wind and rainstorm we had in New York, I think out of LaGuardia, I'm amazed that they let her fly out. I mean, LaGuardia has planes fly out of there at all. Well, you know, it's like, for those of you that don't know, like, we have three major airports in New York. One of them is in New Jersey, so go figure and it used to actually it's a lot easier now to come in and out of Newark, which is the one in New Jersey because now you can kind of like Uber back and forth but it used to be you take a New York City cab to New York First of all, we we also have in the studio, replacing the Stasi Lopez for today only the evil cocktail overlord of the universe, Don Lee Don,

I brought the anger yeah, here to smash nice nice are gonna hate everything.

He's like, are you more are you more Kylo Ren are more Darth Vader?

Ooh, tough question. Definitely more Darth Vader more angsty thing going

no, no dad killing thing just straight evil. Yeah, I like that better

get the Anakin to just straight Darth Vader.

Yeah, that well, he was the worst and it was the worst like that acting so unbelievable. I'll

do I just got an interesting tip. If you're gonna rewatch the prequels watch it in a language you don't understand with subtitles apparently a lot better.

I mean, if you can't hear his acting, yeah. So you know, you've just got subtitles like Washington Farsi. But in dubbed in Farsi, Farsi English subtitles. Well. I mean, I don't know the guy Christian. What's his name? The dude, Hayden Christensen Hayden Christiansen. I mean, has he acted anything or he's good after that. It's horrific. I mean, Natalie Portman is a good actress. And she's horrific in that. So I don't know, man. It has anyone ever watched The Phantom Menace all the way through?

I mean, painfully the first time it came out. Not since then. Exactly.

I've tried on several occasions to make it all the way through.

Have you ever watched the two hour long review of The Phantom Menace on YouTube? This guy he reviews all three of the prequels and he also like has there's this subplot of him being like a Buffalo Bill as a serial killer because truly only someone like that could review those movies, but it's really really good.

Yeah. Does it start like the Phantom And as with a bunch of weird trade rules, it's like it's almost like what's going on in politics right now. It just starts with a bunch of trade regulations that nobody understands. And then like muddles on and then all of a sudden Darth Maul comes out and gets killed in like 10 seconds, right? I mean, it's like at the end of the movie.

Yeah, I mean, the only good thing to come out of the movies, the duel of the fates song. That's a great song, John Williams.

Oh, wait, John. I don't know that. What's

What's the that's the song when they're actually fighting at the very end. But is it better than like the actual like Darth Vader theme? Of course, can't be better than that. But it is in the pantheon of you know, Star Wars songs. One

of the great What about the plaintiff Rebel Alliance song that's awesome. To

the home team, the loop team lithiumion. It's as good right now leitmotifs all about that.

Yeah, you know, what, is there anyone better than him? At what he does anyone?

I don't know. Whoever just did a Rogue One did a pretty good job. wasn't him? wasn't him. Yeah.

He's still alive, though.

He's still alive kind of wanting to get on because it's, it's A Star Wars Story, not the official Star Wars.

But when Darth Vader was in it, they use the original. But then it changed very quickly. If you listen carefully, they just say well, I remember when the dark, I don't know why we're talking about this. Anyway, back to the quickly on our airport. So now you can take the Uber back from there. So it's not so bad. But we have two other main airports. In here we have John F. Kennedy International Airport, which is where a lot of the international flights come in. Also terrible airport worst. Here's the worst. Like when you fly internationally, they make you walk basically the length of an entire country to get from the airplane to the where they check you into the country at customs. Then they make you stand in three separate lines in the name of efficiency, they make you stand in three separate lines, you have to go in the line to talk to the computer to tell it what you brought in or didn't then wait in the line to hand that piece of paper to an agent who stamps your passport. So you can wait in line to go to a customs person who actually verifies that they're going to serve you or not.

Wait, how is it that you don't have Global Entry yet?

Okay, people so you can pay $100 and go get this thing called Global Entry. The problem is you actually have to show up somewhere to do that. You can't just walk and be like, here's my $100.

Yeah, but you don't even have to go to an airport in New York City. There's a TSA office in lower Manhattan. And first of

all, are you a citizen of the United States? Donnelly? Of course I am. Am I a citizen? Am I a citizen? United States? Yeah, yeah. Should I have to pay my government to not be inconvenienced? Should it be a rich person's freaking right only to not have to go through hell. So when he scrapes their nickels together so they can finally take that international freaking trip, they should have to pay $100 so that their government doesn't RAM, a freaking ramrod of nasty time. Waste suck crap up your you know what, when you come back in to the country,

listen, clearly, that shouldn't be the case. But you know, this is the world we've got. So what are you going to do? And besides, most credit cards will pay for it for you as well. Any frequent flyer service.

We need frequent flyer service. If you've got frequent flyer status, don't pay for it. Again, you have to be a frequent flyer, you have to be a special person. Listen, you're

a frequent flyer, you

fly all the time, but I don't sign up for anything because I can't do paperwork.

Alright, we're talking about this off the air.

All right now. So anyway, so here's the other thing about John F. Kennedy International Airport, it costs 60 $80 to get there. I mean, that's just it unless you take public transportation. And there's no convenient public transportation at John F. Kennedy Airport, because you have to take at a minimum at a minimum, a subway to another train, and then walking in between that's minimum,

you can do the express bus to Midtown.

To an oh, well, yeah, but didn't you have to get to Midtown. I don't live in Midtown. So that's your problem. And by the way, you're going with bags, bags, and do they do things like not have like lots of stairs? They have some convenient way to get around those subways and things? No, no, they do not. It is not built for people to use. Right? Well,

I believe they're all ATA accessible, they've got elevators, there is

no. Also there's traffic. Like, okay, there are maybe 15 to 20% of the time during the day when you can get to and from JFK without traffic but your flight your plane never lands or takes off during those times. Right? So you spend like 40 minutes in a car and then 40 minutes later, 40 minutes into your car ride you pass LaGuardia on the way home, which is the airport is incredibly convenient to get into but it's a freaking nightmare because planes never take off or land on time because the runways are too short. Correct. How are we a major city?

Listen, this is this is what we got. We got a you know over 100 year old subway system that floods we're gonna lean to close down and tunnels. There's lots of problems here.

But how are we? Like how is this okay? Like how are we like who we are

wasn't if we had a major war that leveled the city and we rebuilt it from the ground up like Rotterdam it'd be nicer you know, or like Seoul or Tokyo.

Alright, alright, listen, I'm going to need this later. I didn't write it down. So please remember this. Please remember this name of this article people. Later on we're going to answer or talk about a question about soybean and pulse proteins ubass Skin Yuba beancurd skin And we're going to talk about this article. So if you are interested in protein of other legumes and pulses, just remember this article, it's a review. So you can just get a handle on what the proteins are by Joyce, boy, and its post proteins, colon processing, characterization, functional properties and applications in food and feed, a review in Food Research International. And you can find that you can find abstracts to it on the internet. Or if you can steal access to a university, you can get it that way. I forget what year we see what year was from 2010. So you know, less than a decade old, relatively recent. Calling your questions leguminous are not 27184970 my god, I forgot the number 718-497-2128 That's 718-497-2128. So I just got back from Oregon from Portland. And I saw them the dogs actually hunting truffle. So now I know how to do the truffle hunting. And I have to say that the fact that I've not been able to get my dog one of my major my large lab to successfully hunt troubles. It's not his fault. I think I was looking in the wrong places here in Connecticut. My truffle contact. Charles LeFevre in in, in Charles raffia my other truffle contract in in Portland. They they tell me they insist that I have truffles here in Connecticut that we all have truffles everywhere truffles everywhere. She got to know how to look for him. So but

non culinary truffles,

potentially unclear. Unclear, unclear. So I know a lot. We talked a lot about truffles already. But I have a lot more experience with the Oregon truffle now. So if anyone cares to talk more about, you know, non european truffles like non Melanosporum ie Perigord and nonmagnetic, ie white Alba truffles, you know, let me know.

So what were you doing wrong with your dog this is like going to close to the base of the tree like looking in the wrong place.

Truffles don't like like a lot of like, debris and wooden garbage on the ground. Like truffles, like forests that are relatively recently planted. They're like, like, relatively, they live in conjunction with disturbance, right? Because there are these truffles anyway, relatively young forest and they don't like I think a lot of competitive like, shrubs and wood and all this kind of other garbage on the ground. You know, like the land I have, I was looking very rocky, but they also don't like waterlogged ground. So you have to look in places that aren't completely waterlogged. So it's like I just got an eye of where they were looking for this stuff in, in Oregon. So I feel like I have a

better I'm just envisioning you like you know, bribing your sons to go like rake the forest to like, clear the debris now,

well, what you need. I don't know the numbers. I don't know if that'll help or it's just whether it's it needs to be kind of just like that naturally like the where we were was like the classic like dug for like needles on the ground, soft Duff you know, ferns here and there, but not a lot of like, you know, crazy downed stuff. You know what I mean? But so

the acidic soils is okay with that.

Is that a duck for frozen? I don't know. Like, I think everything depends. I gotta, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta look it up. But so so the dog that I was with Dante, and they use some sort of precursor to the poodle the like, I forget what it's called. It's called like the lake Roman old or something. It looks like a poodle. But it's apparently older, and I don't really buy it. But so Dante finds a truffle does the mark, put his paw down, does the initial scrape and I was like, Don't get stop. And I got down on my hands and knees and put my nose to the dirt. Got the minty smell. Dude, it's not me. This one has like everyone's different, right? It's like Rosemary's Baby, every truffle is different. But the for those of you that have seen Rosemary's Baby, but these ones have like kind of a sulfur almost like horseradish, Allium hit to them, along with some other aromas. It's like once you smell it, so the thing with this is, once you smell it, like fresh out of the ground, it's like, Okay, I've got a lock on what the Oregon white truffle smells like. But what I'm here to tell you is is that a human being with their nose to the ground, can smell it and I'm sure if you were to, like, crawl on all fours constantly, or like, you know, wheel yourself around, face down on a car dolly all the time that you you could find these things, too. You know what I'm saying? Sounds like a challenge. Let me tell you something else. Smelling the ground in a dug for dug for patch is nice anyway. Like, there's no bad smells there. You know what I mean? It's not like putting your nose to the pavement in the Lower East Side. It's not just like a big giant pile of filth.

turned it into like some kind of like yoga meditation thing where you have to go into the forest and do this.

Oh my god, we totally should. It's like you find X number of truffles and you've reached this certain level of daily enlightenment. Yeah, yeah, we can

be a whole religion around this business selling truffles, you know, selling them. Leighton and on the other side,

and let me tell you that you become much more doglike when you're on the ground. So like, you know, you're sitting there and you've ever watched a dog outside? Yeah, yeah, they do the they do the they didn't they go and they blow out. You do the same thing when you're doing it. You're like okay, I feel like not I feel like I'm saturated with whatever's right here. You do the blowout. And then you start again you're like without even thinking about it you're like oh my god I'm acting just like a dog

right but the nostrils themselves in the dogs are very different. So they've got that little like kind of curlicue looks like a coma almost where the when they do blow out, it creates this interesting like vortex so that they're really directional smelling versus is really kind of everywhere, right? Harold

McGee, one of his favorite studies to bring up is this study, and I forget what it was, it was at some UC school, I don't know, like 1520 years ago, something like this, where and so I've read studies that basically say, Yes, dogs are better than humans. But it's not like I don't think it's orders of orders of magnitude better than humans. And I think there's some contentious kind of argument over this. But obviously, they use dogs to smell things that we can't, right. So there you go. I don't know whether dogs can smell more compounds, strictly speaking, more numbers of compounds we can or their sensitivity to those compounds. But there was a study where this person in California I forget who it was drugged some chocolate aroma or could have been tracking it down. It's just chocolate because chocolate aroma through the ground, and then put flashlights on students heads, and then overhead took a picture of them at night, trying to sniff their way. And they found it and you can see them like you could see them do that kind of like like, like the hunt porpoise back and forth until they hit the right trail and then staying on deviating off coming back. So humans can do it.

Yeah, we can do it. It's just my understanding was from a pure anatomy standpoint, the dogs, the snouts are longer so the way that they experienced smell is more. It's more, was it a ortho nasal than retro nasal you know, for us it's a lot of it is like, you know, associated with when we eat and so it's that retro nasal smell, but the dog gets primarily that ortho nasal from the outside directly through the nostrils and the shape of the nostrils make it more directional than us. So

yeah, Lieberman, the human evolutionist his theory, I don't know whether it still has any credit or not, is that we are the retro nasal like royalty of the animal world, whereas everyone else is Yeah, completely ortho nasal. So like dogs, you know, like dogs. When you make dog food. You're not worried about how it smells when they're chewing it. It's all about you know, getting it in the face getting in the face. You know what I mean? Yeah, anyway, how the hell to get into this airports? Truffles, truffles?

Star Wars truffles?

Yeah, weird. Okay, so Quinn wrote in. This was last week. Back in November, I asked you a question on how to make a double extracted chicken stock. I didn't talk about this. Did I David the nuts from star a star chefs or did I mean from ChefSteps?

I don't think so. No,

I had a different question I talked about right. Yeah. All right. So I recently tried making stock using the double pressure cooker technique he described and worked out nicely great. The flavor was more concentrated than any stock I'd previously made. There was also a huge difference in the body of the stock. As I children an ice bath it solidified into a gel, whereas previous stocks I'd made there would be some gelatin, but it would still be mostly liquid. Thanks for the help. I have a question about a ChefSteps recipe for deep fried glassy nuts. What do you think about that title down deep fried, glassy nuts?

Who doesn't like some fluffy nuts?

glassy nuts?

What about classy nuts?

Well, well, what about classy glassy nuts? Hey, man, we have so many people asked like, the feeling like everybody knows is like they can in their heads. Just say deez nuts at this point on this show with the number of times that we've had like these nuts references. I always think McGee's nuts now. Oh, because we did it on that show. McGee's nuts. Yeah, yeah, that's replaced deez nuts in my mind. So when you actually hear Snoop Dogg saying it to his girlfriend on the phone, you hear him saying McGee's nuts.

Yeah, my mind just pastes. McGee's in over what he's saying. Wow. Yeah, that's kind of cool. It's a testament to the power of the show and radio. Now.

Can we get Martha Stewart to ask Snoop to say McGee's nuts?

That would be amazing in the Snoop Dogg in the Snoop Dogg way. That's going through my head. Here's another one that goes through my head all the time. Whenever I think of Total Eclipse of the Heart, the heart the song, yeah. In my mind, the word heart is replaced by Shawn pulsar, and vice versa. Whenever anyone mentions John Paul Sartre, I sing Total Eclipse of the John Paul Sartre in my head.

Sounds like an existential

nightmare. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there you go. Anyway, so the recipe is ChefSteps tips and tricks, deep fried, glassy nuts. So briefly, what they do is they take the nuts, whatever nut I think they do pecan in their recipe, but I think it works theoretically on any nut, and they blanch it for a while in water. So there's, there's for a couple minutes, there's two things by the way that that blanching step is doing, it's adding some moisture to the nut, which is going to help in the next procedure, but it's also leaching out the tannins. So if I were you, you know, but it's not going to penetrate too far. So you're not can leach out too much of the nuts flavor but basically all of the all of the stuff that you don't like when you're roasting like those kind of burnt bitter notes, a lot of that stuff is coming from the skin which is also kind of high in tannins, especially on something like a Walmart or pecan Anywho. So you blanch it for more or less time depending I guess on how much crap you want to leach out. And then you instantly throw it into they do it in salted water too. So I guess they're salting at the same time, which is always a good idea. And they throw it into powdered sugar but confectioner sugar I guess, which also has some cornstarch. I think they use confectioner sugar. It's interesting, I doubt that the ChefSteps guys bother making their own powdered sugar and any non any commercial confectioner sugar you have as cornstarch in it, because that's how they keep it from kicking together. So excuse me, after you pull it out, you drain it, then you shake it like shake and bake in Cambro of, of this powdered sugar, this confection of sugar, and then you fry it right. And so the purpose of frying there is I guess, to keep them separate, frying it or rather low temperature, you're keeping them separate from each other. So not like on a baking rag, and you're also preventing stuff from dripping off because any watery stuff is going to adhere to the nut inside the oil because it has no reason to go off into the oil. And at the same time, you're evaporating the moisture off of the surface out of the nut entirely to dehydrated again, and at the same time. You're taking this slurry of sugar that you've made on the outside with the water and the nut and anything is coming out and you're melting that into a glassy coating. When it's done. You pull it out you dry it off. So that oh man my phone decided that I was done done reading so it stopped. So anyway, so the point being that see what happened to him then I followed their procedure blanching the pecans and salted water for about a minute then strain and immediately dumped them into a Cambro of powdered sugar shaking the coat coat well before frying and 325 degree hot oil. Several pecans had sugar the crystallized resulting in a clumpy coating very few ended up looking glassy any ideas as to what went wrong. Thanks Quinn from LA. So I looked at the ChefSteps their website and there were like huge numbers of people who were like worked like a charm work like a charm. And then occasionally people would have this problem. Typically, what's going on in this problem is there's there's I haven't I haven't tried the recipe so I can't say but typically what happens to me when you're cooking sugar is either either you've never fully melted this stuff to begin with. And so a crystal stays there and then it just crystallizes as it cools down. Or two, you have something that does fully melt out but a crystal then gets reintroduced back into it, and it just crystals and glasses over. So you know one would be you know, something that's never works, right. So like you know how, you know how if you take if you take sugar and you don't get all the crystals off of the side as it starts to boil, then if you and if you stir it while it's doing you can hit a crystal into it and you can crystal out your whole batch once you make it to a certain temperature because you're not hot enough to melt everything out. You're not hot enough to go 100% caramel, but you're not you know you're cold enough that you can stay in that supersaturated state you're basically putting the I'm not being clear you're basically putting the sugar into a supersaturated state and then introducing a nucleation site that's what's happening. So my guess is maybe you're draining it too much and you need a little more water on it that's my guess I don't know what do you think you have any Are you a sugar cooking person done

not so much of sugar cooking person but it's sounds interesting I wonder if it has to do with the kind of the powdered sugar that he's using as well. I mean, is it the cornstarch really gonna affect it that much is that going to make things better or worse?

I mean if I had to guess I would say it would make it more crystallin right because it's it's non sugar that's in the in the thing my guess is that it's not going to matter too much maybe someone on the chat room knows about this Dave and can can like weigh in on this nother thing is mean your oil temperature if your oil temperature was right the oil temperature surely can affect it but i don't know i don't know i don't know how the recipe doesn't actually say it's powdered sugar so I mean these guys are pretty specific to the maybe they he's you know one sells powdered sugar though. You superfine super fine that pattern of clothes super fine powder done super fine is not powdered sugar but if that is in fact the case the best way to do it is to put superfine in in like a Vita prep and just Blitz the hell out of it until it's a powder but it's mean try it but at the look really closely on the What's a call on their video. And you can tell by looking at the way it shakes whether or not it's Yeah, but you know, don't be don't be substituting superfine. For powder man not the same

listen if you if you have to choose one or the other I'd rather take the new cornstarch

in the real life I don't know I guess it's probably helpful for some things What about for glazes? I'm sure it's helpful and glazes I use nothing but confectioner sugar and glue. Yeah but that's like you know if you want that specific thing if you always want to you don't like lasers on cakes I

just I've had too many cocktails where someone reads the recipe sees powdered sugar and then uses confectionery sugar, and then now I've got

should never use that in the cocktail. That's what I'm saying what did they use it for? Wrong?

They just shouldn't use it.

But what do they use it for? It's just they don't understand what recipe calls for pattern, like old recipes

that you know, they're not looking at modern recipes. So they'll they'll read a Jerry Thomas style recipe, see powdered sugar, and then

there's no place for cornstarch in a normal cocktail. Which is

why for me if you have to choose, go super fun, because

cornstarch is just gonna make it cloudy. Exactly. And if I forget what it is, I think it's not low. I think it's something it's not as high as 10% I don't think but it's not an insignificant amount of cornstarch that's in it. So I would imagine also that it's going to leave this mega definitely a texture once it's dissolved. Yeah, yeah.

And this this little, you know, slurry on the bottom, as you drink the drink. It's a nightmare. Why would anyone do that? And it music quality,

and music quality? Hey, you still go buy that shirt? Oh, by the way, next week, when the Stasi is back, hopefully we have more information on the spins all how it's going. We're still have the campaign going. Going well might have some news next week about our plans. We're talking with our factories in China in advance of the Lunar New Year, which is this weekend. So basically, we're getting our last licks in before the Lunar New Year. And hopefully I have more on dates, timings, updates on how much money we've had pledged to date and how much money we're actually going to need going forward. And then we'll, we'll talk more about

it. Yeah, for people that don't know, when the manufacturing in China side of things. Lunar New Year is the largest voluntary migration of people that happens every year, and everything shuts down in China for almost an entire month.

Yeah, well, and the interesting thing is, even though the celebrations are probably what, like a week or something like this, I was talking to the guys and so like what you have is like it a lot of factories in China people are they go to the factories from they live a long way away, long way away. And they go and they live in the factory dormitory style. We're talking like, you know, young people, like 1819 20 year old people, you know, working in these factories, not like young like, like, you know, like child labor young, but like, you know, first job young. And those group of people sometimes when they go home for, you know, for the Lunar New Year, it's a long way to get there. And maybe they didn't like their job so much. So they just don't come back. And so like it takes a long, long time for the factory to get back up to speed because they don't know what percentage of their workers are going to get back. And you know, maybe that'll change later in time in China as fewer and fewer workers become migratory or come from other provinces. I don't know. It's an interesting and strange phenomenon has learned. I mean, very interesting. Yeah. Are you guys manufacture in China? At cocktail kingdom? Right? We do some there. Yeah, yeah. Not everything. But some right. Yep. You see, are you hearing any rumblings yet about the whole Trump thing?

Not not anything that specifically affects us? Yeah,

I'm interested because I'm working there. I'm interested to see what happens. I kind of you know, I wish I could make I wish I could make the spins all in the US, but we just don't have the quantity. You know what I mean? Like this one, I think people don't understand like a small manufacturer like me, or like, you know, you guys a cocktail kingdom be virtually impossible for a lot of the stuff we do to get the numbers reasonable. Like the US were really good at making a couple. And we're really, really good at making a lot. But anything that is not in automation range. Yeah. Is like doesn't exist. Yeah. You can't like you have to make enough of something, to have it be automated for it to be viable here in the US. But then how many jobs are you really providing? If you're going to an automated? You know, I don't know. It's interesting problem. I wish I could. It doesn't want to call. Yeah, sure. Caller you're on the air.

Hi, Dave. My name is Becky. I'm calling from the UK. Hey. I'm good. Thank you, you guys. Yeah, did I have a cocktail related question? I'm trying to make a tequila and rhubarb sour where I'm using the rhubarb juice both taking rhubarb juice, using that making of syrup from that and also using it to the acid but it's got got a problem with the astringency. It's kind of really good. So if you make one drink and it's great balance between the kind of acid and and the sugar, but if, if you then go to have a second drink second one of it, you get that real kind of tonic drying quality stringency at the mouth. And I just wonder if you had any ideas on how to deal with that.

Sure. So me go to your procedure first of all, this is a heated rhubarb.

Yeah, so the rhubarb is cooked in about in a water bath, 60 degrees for an hour, blended with pectin x and then spun in a centrifuge to take that off. And then so then split into two parts and from one half of that, make a 50 brick syrup. And then essentially, then make it like a, like a, if you're making a daiquiri, so Well, a one and a half ounce of of tequila and three quarters of juice and three quarters of Sir,

one and a half. I gotta go to two. Anyway. Well, like, but let me ask you this. Well, maybe not depends. Yeah, you should go. Yeah. Anyway, what? Let me let me let me work mentally backwards here. So I've never cooked rhubarb at 60 Is that enough to have it taste cooked or does it still taste raw?

It tastes cooked. Okay. Yeah,

because raw rhubarb, which I've also used is even more challenging to use in a cocktail than cooked rhubarb. I would recommend me anytime I have a problem of astringency, I moved to some sort of stripping regimen, but I would do it like on the juice itself. So casein like milk is a relatively gentle stripping things and you could do like a milk washing to it. Before you add sugar, obviously likes the sugar will stabilize it. So you know, it'll kind of ruin it, unless you want to actually make a milk syrup out of it. But then the problem is, then you have to have a lot of milk. But yeah, so milk would, would do it. A lot of other stringency removers are relatively brutal, like egg white is a relatively brutal stripping agent it like it'll just really tear the hell out of the flavor script the hell out of it. As a first shot, I would just make the drink with an egg white, and see whether the egg white, if you have to have the just with your current syrup that you have right now, if it's something that can be bound with a protein, just making it with an egg white twice, it's going to change the balance a lot of your cocktail, but it'll let you know whether or not a stripping agent would help right

now Sorry to interrupt, but I did a try to milk wash on it. And I liked the results. And that's remind me what the next part of the question is. Is there a vegan alternative to using a milk wash?

Okay, well, let me think about it.

Have you ever tried to emote wash with soy milk? Soy milk?

I haven't. I don't know. My impression. Don you tried it? I haven't tried it but I can't imagine that that would work. Here's the thing I don't know maybe someone on the on the What's it called? We'll know on the on the message things will know. But usually with soy protein so it is a protein right? I've never find with it. My guess is that soy is to coagulate soy you add positive ions right? You add calcium typically or magnesium like double positive which leads me to guess that the soy currently has a net negative right I have no idea. I have no idea I shouldn't even speculate Mike I would try it like and like I like you know it's it's definitely an interesting idea I've done like it's Kiesel saw which you add is negative right? Because then you add kind of sandwich a positive so you could I've done I've done I forget what it was I did a a gelatin strip where I added a fining agent to do the to do the attachment and then I added Joanne to precipitate it out but that's very gentle. Okay, gelatin is a good stripper but it's not obviously not vegan

I guess I'm more curious as to why it's the second drink and not from the very beginning not from that first drink so if you if you would try to making you know like not rhubarb Margarita like a regular Margarita and then you have a rhubarb Margarita as your second drink. Is that still feeling too? too stringent? Oh, I don't know.

stringency can build up over time. I mean, astringents The as of five or six years ago, which was last time I actually looked it up what there was still some debate over the mechanism of stringency. But there are at least some people who believe it's a loss of lubricity on the tongue. Right. And so you could definitely have an additive effect over time. With whether stringency

I guess what I would do is I would try you know, another sour drink first and then have this a second drink. Is it a specifically any second drink? Or if you had a double sized drink by this time you get to the end of that first drink? Is it just because the accumulation over time? You know,

a David, has anyone on anyone in the chat room around as anyone tried stripping with soy?

Doesn't look like it? No. Yeah. No, no thoughts on this? Somebody wants to know What about

Well, someone still wants to everyone wants to Aqua aquafaba and everything no, like, like chick, but that that's more of a hydrocolloid interaction. Like it's more of a thickening kind of protein. I don't know that charge of chickpea juice. But you know, in general, what you're looking for, like an like an aggregator, and so it's like something that like, it's going to bind to poly phenols. And so typically, you're looking at proteins like the complex with poly phenols, or they're poly phenols. Like the compact complex with other polyphenols in the in the right environment, and certain charged certain charged things will bind with poly phenols in the right environment. It's interesting idea, I should look into soy, like soy protein isolates. We just use soy protein isolates. I should try it I we easy enough to look up. Here's the other thing though. If you look up wine finding, right, which is how you get into this in wind, fine, as you will see, and there. There's lots of scholarly work on it right, you'll see blood, you'll see egg white, you'll see gelatin, you'll see Kiesel saw Kaita sand, you know the suspended silica courtesan, you'll see all of that stuff. I haven't you'll see you know PvP, you'll see all these things. You won't see you won't see so much. I've never seen soy. But maybe this Haven't they haven't tried it. But you know, that's an indicator of what you can do. There aren't karagin ins that are made for finding out beers. And they require a certain amount of heating probably a little bit above over what you're doing now. 60 C, but there are catholiccare gains that are made to add in small amounts to like bind protein haze in in beers other Hayes's in beers, maybe they would help. I don't know. I don't know an interesting thing to try. Sub jealous.

You're serving in like a bar restaurant, or is this something you just doing for yourself at home?

It's, it will be for a bar restaurant.

By the way, I am looking.

That's why I wanted to see if I can make it vegan because at home I already had already already using a bit of aquafaba in it and to give give some head and company were just said that that I'm not sure if that's I don't think that's doing any astringency stripping.

And Matthew question on the aquafaba. Here's my issue on a lot of texturizing agents and drinks. So I did some experimentation years ago with doping my lime juice with xanthan gum. And the reason being that I wanted to know if if lime juice has two functions in the shaking cocktail, right? It's a it is adding solids proteins for texturizing. And it's adding acidity, which is why you never shake with clarified lime juice. Right? Right. Okay, so I thought, well, if a little bit of bodying is good, more might be better. So I added xanthan gum, so that could hold the body better. And this is also in like, anyway, and my thing was is that I couldn't find anyone who liked it that much better. I wasn't adding enough to make it first of all, remember Xanthan not a whipping agent. So you're not going to it doesn't make a foam. It just holds the foam you've got right be very clear on what Xanthan does, but I wasn't able to find anyone that liked it better fresh, but I was able to find people who at the end of the cocktail, once the cocktail had warmed up a little bit could taste a different body in at the end of the cocktail. Now my question on aquafaba and a cocktail is do you have the same problem at that end of a cocktail?

I don't know. Because I've been drinking them quite quickly. Yeah. But I mean I because I really don't. I can really taste eggwhite you Get a drink, which is why I don't like it,

I know what you should do on you share what you do on egg white crack and just do this test for me, since you're not a vegan, crack your egg white in the morning, leave it in your fridge, and then use it in the evening. And tell me if you can still smell it or taste it. A lot of that stuff is kind of transient. And it's hard to do in a bar, because you know, you don't want to crack out that many in advance. But it's one of the few cases where I think people who do do pre crack on their egg white and put it in squeezes. It's problematic in some ways, because it doesn't dose right. But you know, the technique where you crack your egg whites into a squeeze bottle, and then you put it in the new jigger your egg white. If you crack it, like several hours in advance prior to service, all of that smell flashes away. And so it's actually superior. Okay, and another thing that I don't think I mentioned in the book, in liquid intelligence, I can't remember I wrote a while, you know, quite a while ago, but anytime we're doing testing for drinks, like we have a very firm rule that you make one, and you drink it right away, because that's the way God wants you to do it. But then you make another one and you take a sip, and then you let it sit for 15 minutes. And then you take a sip, let it sit around because some drinks, some drinks, which work like off flavors. For instance, egg white drinks on freshly cracked eggs, all flavors will develop after a couple of minutes. Or like in the case of the Xanthan stuff, like bad textures will come out as it warms up. So it's like super good practice, I think because you can't like guarantee that all your customers are good people, you know what I mean? And that they're going to drink in a timely fashion.