Hello and welcome. This is Dave Arnold your host Michael geezers coming to you live from the heart of Manhattan the Rockefeller Center at newsstands studios joined in the studio with John how you doing? Great thanks joined remotely by Anastasia the hammer Lopez chillin with Jackie molecules in Los Angeles. How you guys doing? We're good. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Got got Queen over there in a way Oh, got Quinn over there in Vancouver Island. Not the city of Vancouver. Don't confuse them. Yeah. Vancouver Island do you have to take off like a float plane to? You can't like just walk from Vancouver to Vancouver Island. There is no

bridge or a ferry. You can take a ferry? Yeah, but

how much cooler? Is it? Take a float plane. Cool. It's cool. I have to say my dad used to fly float planes before my dad got remarried. Wow. So like, and we got rocking the panels behind us as usual Joe Hayes and I'm in my I'm in an abnormal position. I'm not used to doing the show not being able to see Joe Hasan.

Yeah, no, your back is to me. It's just very unusual. So yeah, maybe I need to set a mirror up or

maybe like one of those like, Don't Don't kill me. Pedestrian mirrors.

Yeah, yeah, call the trust fall, although

like, right, well, I have this feeling that I'm gonna do something and Joe's gonna hit me in the back of the head like a school teacher.

You know, I mean, so the trust ball isn't going? Well. All I'm

saying is, is that I'm sure most of you didn't grow up with school teachers, okay, in the back of their head. But anyway, as befits the way that we normally work before we start our beginning banter. I'm going to introduce our two guests. Very pleased to have Gary Richard with me today. Hello. And Ben Schaffer with me today. Hello, hello. Oh, you might know Garrett, from such things as working at existing conditions where I met him a you might have known him working where the hell do you work in NPR?

Oh, that was a long time ago. But I wasn't I was in radio. When I was in college and grad school. I was I worked at W FEV. So it is weird to be in a much tinier radio station. Yeah.

Well, we have a music question for you later. So so that's good. But you also know him from what I think. What do you think John? Like best bar going in New York now? Like certainly one of the best. I don't believe in best anything. Because I think it's really a dumb thing to try to rank one person's achievement over another when everyone's doing different things. You know what I'm saying? But if you had to get

out of all my bar experiences in the last two or three years, I guess that's not saying too much. Because the pandemic all my bar expenses in the last five years. It's was really excellent.

Let me put it this way. Here's what I here's, I'll say I'll say this. I'll say if someone says, Hey, there's like, you want to go somewhere? I'd be like, Yeah, let's go to sunken harbor. That sounds fun. Right? Yes. Yeah. You know what I mean, but

you know, I think one of the points as well is we lost so many amazing places in New York and other cities during the pandemic, that sunken harbor club opening during that time was like a beacon of hope. Right. So that has that kind of Yeah, the playing field

was really wiped for you know, a lot of our favorite spots, including the spot that I worked at with you unfortunate existing

conditions, formerly the best bar in New York. And now we're trying our best with some good hard

works. Well, some can harbor is a is a fantastic place. And well, we'll talk more about it. We'll talk more about it in in a little bit, but it's above gage and Tollner. And you guys don't run the bar program at gage and Tollner right

now. It's a separate team. I came in with my background of working with you and then having my own series of pop ups with Meghan Dorman called Exotica. And I

was fun. By the way, if you ever you don't, you can't do this anymore. Right? Too busy, too busy, busy.

It was very busy. It was very crowded. It was a very pre COVID kind of thing. Yeah. But, you know, sunken harbor is really the continuation of what I was doing at exotica, which was kind of on my days off and existing when I was working. It's like the it's like the fusion of those two things. But we're here to with my partner writing partner here, Ben to talk about who

you might know, or you might know from the blog, the rum reader, where you don't just read about it at home, you actually you've tasted from I have Yes. Not just a

couple times I just read about it. I prefer by the way we call it a magazine, even though it's online. Yes. I think blog implies some dude sitting at home. Right? Right. And and the room reader has a lot of different authors with different points of view and you know, it's a little bit unique. Well, you've been featured there. Yeah. We used to do a lot of events which we still do that have brought together luminaries such as yourself and Garrett and many others to talk about classic drinks. Yeah,

Dave did the Daiquiri panel it's slowly surely short hop skip and a jump from existing I remember

that wearing Shannon must affirm and I got wasn't heated already. We just got into discussion was very respectful. Aren't you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, and I wanted to do and I think maybe she did it with somebody else. But I wanted to do a thing with her where we just sit down and do it. And we talked about the differences between the drinks. Maybe that's the thing, I can pitch for tails of the cost. I needed seminar this year for tales of the cocktail. And I only have like a day and a half to try to pitch it. Yeah, let's do it, like literally a day and a half. But it's like, just actually test these things out and just talk about it like adults

actually do the do the experiments live as you've done? Yeah, yeah.

And often, I'm proven wrong, like the big ice cube experiment, wherein I walked into an experiment I'd never run before thinking I was gonna get proved right in front of 100 people and was proven wrong. I was like, oh, and then I walked back to Booker, and I didn't walk because, you know, it's a long walk from. Yeah, took an aeroplane. And then

I guess when you're proven wrong, you need that kind of walk of shame across the country. Yeah. But it

made me super happy. But then when I got back home, I was like, we're changing the way we make all our drinks. And they're like, Oh, come on. I was like, Yep. Hey, guys. Hey, guys.

I don't know if you remember this day. But at the slowly surely event work. Garrett was not present. Because then it gives working?

I put him in the audience. No, no, I was working.

But I don't know if you remember what you told me about Garrett, and his sort of unique status in your mind. Because you know, as you're talking about, there's people disagree with you on things when people say that you got to do it this way. Do you remember what you told me? Because I think it's a great characterization of your relationship, but also a little bit about Garrett and a little bit about you. You said basically, that, you know, Garrett was always telling you that he wanted to do things differently than you wanted to do them at existing conditions. And you said, If anyone else had said this to me, I'd say take a hike. Because it's Garrett. I'm like, prove it. Yeah. Yeah. And then you'd have him do the side by side. Well, and see you said, sometimes he convinced you.

Yes. Well, like my operational mode is that it? You know, if you no longer willing to be proven wrong, Jen, just step into the box. You know what I mean? Like, that's it, you're not going to grow anymore. Life is growth, right? So it's like you're done. But often, I would say, two people prove it to me, but I'm not really giving. I'm not really expecting them to prove me. But if Garrett said something, I'd be like, I can't just dismiss what this dude is saying out of hand because he doesn't talk out of his rear end. Very often, forever. Really? You know what I mean? I tried

to cut it down as much as I can. And these days, but what's weird

about it is is it Garrett will. Garrett will he has a lot of things to say but they're all considered which is rare. You know what I mean? He has a lot of considered things to say. But anyway, if you're listening live on the Patreon call and your questions 2917410 1507 That's 917-410-1507 And if they're not in the Patreon, John, how do they get to be on

Patreon patreon.com/cooking issues yet check it out joining gets you access to the discord priority questions on episodes they will always get to them awesome discounts like kitchen arts and letters and other cool people that we partner with. Yeah, it's worth checking out and signing up. We got a bunch of different membership levels so yeah, what are you waiting for?

And next week on the show we have IS HE is pleased ease. He's in Connecticut, but still, I mean, I mean, it's still Still we got we got Jack Papan on calling in next week. Well, I used to work with and I'm on the What's it called? Like he has some sort of like series of videos that are coming out where people holiday videos

I think they have come or come up today maybe Yeah, I think they come out today.

So I did a frozen like a frozen

series of videos. One comes out every week,

Wednesdays and one that I'm doing coming out

I believe January 11.

Somehow somehow January 11 thing winds epiphany I don't even make epiphany I don't even make epiphany well

your people need a whole year to prepare to make your thing probably the one I mean it's simple I

made it simple. It just frees grapefruit juice it's like a freakin Aqua V granita with grapefruit juice and like and like in acid and like you know you stir it and then like you know you put the pollution it because you know to do acid that grapefruit I think so come on. I might I might have just added some lemon I don't remember I tried to make it as bone not You're not a bonehead people out there not calling you boneheads but I tried to make it as normal mo as possible for people that they could just go make it all you need to own as a ziploc people and aka V although I even told him you can make with Jim is vastly inferior with gin. But you know, go by Lynnie

which Oh, so okay, we're doing Lynnie I mean, yeah, well, what if they don't have access to lightning? What if they have the other one? Whatever, man,

whatever. Alright, so before we get into the fact that you guys are here, which is you have a book coming out in May, given the title of the book,

tropical standard. That's a title, the slug slug underneath so the so the the full title is tropical standard, a cocktail techniques and reinvented recipes. And the whole the concept is kind of merging the streams. It's third stream cocktail, it's it's bringing two Over the craft cocktail revival, the tropical drinks cannon and the cutting edge techniques that I associate with people like Dave Arnold. That

jerk. Yeah, we'll get into this in a minute. But we don't want to miss a time to shoot the breeze because we use Thanksgiving. So what do you guys do for cook? I hear John heard you were sick.

Yeah, it's not fun. Yeah, I mean, ate well, Thursday night, but then sick for the next two or three days and was not able to enjoy all the delicious leftovers, which is my favorite meal of the year. So it was very sad.

I once again anticipated not having leftovers because I am no longer the child. I'm not at my and I'm not going to my mom's house. So I was like, I'm not getting the leftovers out of this. And I didn't get any leftovers out of this. So before I went to Thanksgiving, I put a turkey in my in a 15 pounder in my fridge. And when I got home next day, I cut that sucker up, and I load tempt the breast for sandwiches. I braised the dark meat for like hash and whatnot and you made

to order leftovers.

Yeah, yeah. You You don't need you only need the presentation once a

year so you didn't make the sides and all that you just made the turkey for sandwiches.

I'd already made stuffing so many times this year because the chain thing I didn't but I did make more cranberry sauce.

I don't know how I felt about the skin thing. Was that. Would you do that again? Yeah, yeah. Okay. I don't I feel like I want to skin around my turkey.

But there was no turkey.

What do you mean what we're at sexing the skin? I had

my presentation turkey. Okay. at Thanksgiving. Okay. And from here on out. I want Turkey bread sandwiches. Okay, I want last night I took my my toast oats and I made I made like a Thanksgiving stone bowl. Delicious. Really good. Oh my god. So good. That was like this is my favorite stone bowl ever. But I mean, it's the you know, the rice and the always with an egg on the top. Right. The rice, the chopped up dark meat that I had braised. And when I say put on carrots, peas, like you know, Popeye stuff, a lot of the gravy because I had a boatload of gravy because I had the carcass. Right. And I think scallions and fried onions. Yeah, it's really good. You can't lose with that. Right? It's not a losing proposition. Yeah. And so then I had the skin and I was like, I'm gonna cook this so that it gets real thick and crunchy. And I did. And you know what I, you know, the other side have made mashed potatoes. But I made it the way my mom used to when I was a kid. I put carrots in it. And DAX was like, I don't like this. You didn't even eat it. So he doesn't know whether he likes it tasted it. No. He doesn't eat anything orange because he thinks I'm slipping pumpkin in there. And that's the one thing he's allowed to say. He doesn't like,

what's the thought process with the carrots and the potatoes? Is it to just give like some of that sweetness, or

are they mashed up as well? It's just like little bits of carrot mash? Mash. So you mash them together.

Yeah. And my mom, you could do that all the time when we're a kid never heard he's always had it with fish. It's good, right? Yeah.

Is it just the sneak vegetables into the taste? A nice little sweetness. Yeah, so the extra little sugar? Yeah, tastes good.

I always like mashed potatoes. Or carrots. You always saw what Mr. tizzle? Boring.

No, no, no, here's what you got to do. First of all, first of all, you got to mash them. Right? What do you how do you mash your potatoes?

I have people for that. Okay, what

do they use?

You know? Well, I think also I grew up in an era where my mother as a professional woman was a fan of, you know, labor saving cooking, even though she was a gourmet cook in the sort of Julia Child Time Life international cookbook kind of stuff. You know, she made amazing stuff. But she would not waste time mashing a potato. So I feel like there were certain maybe that box of flakes was sometimes involved.

That's more of a baking ingredient. Yeah, yeah.

I don't know. But I mean, they can be good, but I don't obsess over them the way some people do. I mean, thinking the carrots thing sounds better. I like carrots more than like potatoes. So

when I was a kid, so my mom, mom, mom's a doctor. So one time she got called away to a conference and she was gone for like I don't know better part of a week so I'm there with my my stepfather and I'm trying to make food right since like junior high or high school. And I'm like, I'm gonna make those carrot mashed potatoes only I had never made mashed potatoes before. So I didn't know what's the cart. What's the cardinal sin John when you're when you're making mashed anything vegetable? Totes? I don't know. Under undercooked. Oh, under cryptographic.

Matching, but yeah.

Oh, yeah. You turn to glue, right? But you can cook it almost forever. Yes. And it's fine. Yes. As long as you dry it out a little bit before you and you don't you know, glue it. You know what I mean? So I didn't cook it enough. And I was sitting there and I was like, Why don't they sittings mash too hard. They're too hard. I didn't i i was like this is first I think I made the pieces really big. So you know how long it takes to boil a potato if you don't cut it into small pieces? Yeah. And I was like, This is not right. I was like thanks for coming home mom, you know when she came home and I made her makeup but then Gerard my stepfather's never let me forget this.

It's like that was your first failed experiment. Yeah, yeah.

Well, the first one that I let them Have though, like much earlier I used to do. I used to make garlic toast all the time. So I would take, you know, Wonder Bread was the 70s or whatever right? I would like put butter on it. And then I would just take garlic powder and chew to tune and then put it in the toaster. Because it's like the analog of cinnamon toast used to make cinnamon toast right? It's like cheap texas toast. Yeah, this is the 70s And so one time I dumped almost like a whole bottle of garlic powder on it. And I ate it. I was fine with it. But my dad would not let me sit even in the backseat of the grand Torino stationwagon I had to sit in like the very also the 70s Like no one cared about a seatbelt he basically like duct taped me to the rear window of that grand Torino you know what I mean to like to go around anyway, that was also failed in their eyes. I was fine with it. You know, just before

you want to fall tangents. We forgot to plug my friend gave me

today's Giving Tuesday, and later on we're going to plug later on on the Instagram. Right, Quinn. We're going to plug Jacques pan's foundation because we told him he would but right now I want mo fed and even though most likely you're listening to this on some Tuesday other than giving Tuesday you can still give even if it's not giving Tuesday. Did you know that John? I did. Yeah. Yeah,

that's an excellent point to bring up Yeah, yeah. So fab.org

Can we somehow by the way speaking of Japan next week, can we like mail him a chicken I want to see how fat because Jaffa pan used to do this demo right first of all Japan just had a book come out called like chicken the art of the chicken or the art of the cheddar chicken lives are like you know the life of a chicken or like you know chicken around the clock or something like this something with chicken it and it's watercolors that Jack Papan has done of chicken with like anecdotes about chicken first of all, Jack Papan from tradesave. Bourg en Bresse. And with it with a good accent Bulldog is Yeah. Which is anyone who knows chickens knows like, you want a fancy fresh chicken. That's where you go. So he comes from the land of chicken. Right? In like Kentucky. What? Well, in America, you'd be surprised to know if you're not fully dipped in chicken history. Where do you think chicken central in the United States is not right now. But where is the where's the genesis of the American Rhode Island reds. Yeah, that really but where is it? Where is it? Where is it? It's it's it's it's a give you a hint. It's a peninsula. Oh, it's Peninsula. No one's gonna be very surprised, Florida. No, but that is a peninsula. No offense, Florida. But if we cut you off, no one would notice. I'm just kidding. I guess I'm messing with you. I love you Florida, especially south Dade. Actually. Hey, listen, we're gonna be talking tropical drinks later and like, you know, can't have tropical drinks without Florida and parts of California anyway. Anyone? Anyone? The upper peninsula of Michigan? No, that's an interesting choice. Because there is good very good agriculture. No, it's Del Mar. Delmarva. Delmarva,

Delaware, Maryland, Virginia as well. Those three states for sure. Border. Yeah.

Yeah. That's it. That's where that's where that's where chickens were invented. That's where the modern chicken was invented. With it

without them. Is that reflected in junk bonds? watercolors? I don't know. I have. You see, like the light filtering in from a Delaware sky.

You know. And by the way, I don't know whether that's that because I've never had a quote unquote, Maryland fried chicken. But apparently that's a thing. Yeah. But it has to do with the fact that you're getting the chicken from one of the like a better farms in that area. But I've never had Maryland fried chicken. What's that other weird fried chicken that we've never had the one from like, oh, Cleveland, right? No, it's some wheat. Some weird. It's some small town. It's a small town and I don't know Ohio. Right. Yeah, yeah. Speaking of Ohio stars. How was Ohio Thanksgiving? Good. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. How was it any mishaps? Well, yeah.

Pat family bought precooked sides and pre cut chicken from the I mean, Turkey from the Kroger and then we just heated it all up in the microwave. And yeah,

wow. Yeah. Okay. What was the first pre cooked pre cooked

eyes? Buy?

Well, you know what, it's more about the company. So big box Thanksgiving. Honestly, like, at this point in my life, like, as long as I have the comfort foods, I don't care whether Kroger cooks it or not, you know what I mean? Like, I like sitting around with the people and having the food but I must have the requisite proper foods or I go home and make them myself.

Or we go to Boston Market.

They still have Boston Market. I

don't know they have all the sides seem

that's it? Yeah. Do you know what's a delicious one of those things that if you know, Honey Baked Ham actually I like Honey Baked?

Oh, yeah. Very good. Yeah,

that's a rare fine if you're driving around and you see a Honey Baked Ham store

while you know what the thing about Honey Baked Ham, so I'm always driving around on a Sunday. They're all closed on Sundays. You cannot buy a Honey Baked Ham on a Sunday.

We got to plan in advance you gotta go you know Saturday. Yeah, but I'm

not I'm not A hand planter I mean I am with with

age you know that on your day if you are a ham,

I am a ham planter for eight for for age hands but I'm not a ham planter for you. If I say Honey Baked Ham I want that thing to you

on it like immediately that's, that's a whim purchase.

You know what the easiest freakin HoneyBaked Ham from New York City we ate. We got eight over 8 million people in this freaking place. Right? No Honey Baked Ham stores. I want everyone to think about that. You have to go to Milford, Connecticut. Milford.

Milford on a Sunday.

Not freaking

Milford even get the Metro North. Yeah, that is that a rent a car situation?

Now you can get there to MetroNorth you have to walk across I 95 Which actually is not hard because the traffic is stopped.

It's way too easy the other way you're schlepping honey ham.

Yeah, yeah. Anyways, so yeah, I went to the Honey Baked Ham store. I used to only ever that doesn't say something already. I used to only pass the Honey Baked Ham on a Sunday. Right? So it's closed. Oh, it's right off the highway right by this nasty Mall. And it's instance on store though. So I walked in there once. I finally made it on a non Sunday. I think I was taking DAX on a on a tour of a college that like that. I was like I've been waiting 20 years to come to this freakin Honey Baked Ham but you're closed on Sundays. He's like, every Sunday closed. And I said to the lady behind it thing. I'm like, I've never been to the Honey Baked Ham. But I've always wanted to have a Honey Baked Ham. Should I get the what's the difference between the one with the bone and without the bone? She's like, now they're the same and the other way? Oh, no, no, no, no. No, get the one with the bone. I was like, okay. All right. And if you should go to Honey Baked Ham and buy Honey Baked Ham. Also buy their bean soup mix because you have to and then you can reverse engineer their bean soup mix. Which you make with the bone when it's done. That's all I'm gonna save us. Of course, he

didn't get one. So it doesn't matter.

Well, not not not Thanksgiving. Although, you know, like, my mom used to have to make ham on Thanksgiving because my grandpa would never eat turkey. He would you'd say grandpa you don't eat turkey, fowl, chicken fowl? Anything. Any bird? He would just say that those words over to you again. And together. They are foul. Yeah. Anytime you've handed a mushroom toadstool and you just say the same crap all the time. So like, you know, my mom eventually got sick of it and would always make him some crap that he would eat.

Anyway, what would you say when he got somebody who did like nothing? Right? That's when you know you do well

silences approval.

I mean, you know, he's he's one of those kind of, you know, that kind of generation of butthead. You know, I mean, whatever you jack, how was your Thanksgiving? Goodbye, fine.

I'm in Connecticut and my brother's he's, you know, first first time at his house. He's got two young kids so there was a it was good that you said about the company.

So you're saying that they ruined the turkey that's what I'm trying to read between the lines here. Turkey was run.

It was actually rotisserie chicken.

Rotisserie chicken. Rotisserie chicken. Did you at least have to be flavored gravy? Yes. Okay. Okay, cares about cares about what? Who cares about what I do? I can speak for one person I care. As I know, yeah. Well, you said Who? So you didn't know anyone who cared about it? You know, at least one person who cares about it. You know?

It wasn't worth it. Yeah. Yeah. looks horrible.

Oh, oh, you're telling me I shouldn't care about it. Well, you're wrong. I don't care about it. A turkey like it's one of those things. I love it so much. And so American walk a little day. Like you know, Ben Franklin was right. And crap on the eagle. Who needs an eagle although they are impressive birds. Eagles are impressive bird about you, Joe.

Yeah, it was a tough one. Little boy was there eating dinner. I got a truffle got a white truffle. Oh, yeah. I spent a fortune on a white truffle from Piedmonte was freaking delicious.

What do you do with it? The egg it up was it did you have we had eggs the next day? Okay, eggs. Definitely. The next day. I

was. We did over we did with with her over a mashed potatoes and a mac and cheese. I had to do both. I was gonna just do one. But the whole place was so fragrant. It was delicious. Yeah, it was really good. We didn't do Turkey. We didn't but we always we've been doing bird birds. We've been doing chickens for like, probably 1012 years. Yeah. My wife does amazing bird. Yeah,

yeah. I do have a truffle slicer.

Of course I do. Not. i Yeah, it'd be we can't truffles became a kind of a tradition in the last five years. So I went ahead and bought a very nice one. Oh, nice.

Yeah. I was given two of them. I have very little opportunity to shave a truffle

on its back. There. You're worth it doesn't make a really nice even cut.

So when you're at the table, do you like look at the other person as you're shaving? And then like have them like, put money in a basket for each. That's my favorite thing in a restaurant.

I don't know I'm, yeah, I wasn't wearing steel gloves, but definitely not going to cut my palm open. Those things are very sharp.

Yeah, like my favorite. My favorite thing to watch a when when, you know, you go to like, like place like Del Posto back in the day, right? Is to watch a couple on a date. And then like see the server come out with the truffle, right? And then you're like, he's going to price shame this date into a billion dollar source of truffle, right? And like someone like me, I can't be shamed. So they're like, one slice. I'm like, Don, poor, get out. You know what I mean? But then they go to two and then they look over at the person and the person has to give them the nod, but they don't want to be like No more No more tu tu tu tu tu tu tu tu tu Oh my god.

I feel like there's potential to rewrite the pepper boy sketch. The Dana Carvey was in an SNL but based on truffles. Is that the freshly ground pepper? Yeah, the with Fisher Fisher Fisher Fisher. I feel like that I feel like there's an updated version of it. truffles and maybe maybe the price shaming.

Yeah. Stars. You like to see someone get price shamed into a billion dollars for the truffles, don't you? It's hilarious.

I haven't seen I've never seen

it last time. Amazing. It's amazing. Because it's one of those things where the idea of it Yeah, it's it's awesome. I mean, it's a great thing. First of all, like don't be don't be ashamed that you don't have the money to spend on all of those shades of truffles. Like just say no, wave them off. Be proud that you can wave them off. Don't get shamed into something you can't afford.

Or you reverse it and you say I have self control. I understand that. There's only so much truffle for the restaurant.

Oh, you're so nice. Yeah, you become a martyr.

Yeah, like Joe you bring your own.

Imagine Can you imagine you wave off the dude and then you're like drinking tea. It's like that person who carries the salt shaker with them and like you'd be put your own salt on. John, what would you do if someone came into temperance, ordered something and then like whipped out a truffle and started shaving it?

In pressed? I mean, fair,

is there such a thing as a shave edge fee? As a corkage where truffle?

Just like there's a cake cutting fee and why not? Oh, then you guys have cake cutting? We don't. But we should say I hate cutting cakes. What is the why are

you allowed to do that at all? Like, why am I allowed to bring a cake in?

Because you're going to bring in the rest of the party that ever burners remember? Yeah,

we did a lot of things that were burned. It's like they wouldn't. They wouldn't give us a room alone. And so we brought her on arugula. This is not the truffle. We did.

Oh yeah. I remember there's Instagram.

We truffled a pizza. They would never give us anything. Wanted. Yeah, they would never give us anything we wanted. Like we were like oh

no, no, no, you are truffle shaming the restaurant.

We knew we knew that we were doing something wrong. And we did it anyway that I'm not saying we knew we were doing something wrong, but it was kind of a protest. It all started when we used to see the arugula salads come out. And they wouldn't put a rule on the pizza. That's how it all started. Okay, and we're like the Stasi was like about you just will order the freakin salad. Hold the frickin salad aisle a Jack Nicholson and Five Easy Pieces. Hold the salad. And then between your knees that's the line from Jack Nicholson Five Easy Pieces. Go watch it if you ain't whatever is not one

of the best films. Yeah, go watch anyway.

I want you to hold the chicken anyway. And put the ruler on the pizza they wouldn't do it were like charges extra charges infinity because it was the oh the Voldemort network was paying for it anyway so we're like you know charge infinity and they wouldn't do it right stars and that's where our that's where we're like oh, to hell with these guys don't follow any rules. Anyway, this whole place is put together with spackle and bubblegum and gonna fall apart. Someone's gonna die. I love the place by the way, but like that's just the essence of the thing. Started Am I wrong about this?

Yeah. And as we previously established a lot of Ziploc bags so don't test him. Yeah, he will use the full full collection.

Um, well my house is Zippy Central. Zippy Zippy zippy. Speaking zippers as opposed to vacuum you ever hear back from a nova Quiner? No. No. So we've had we had the a nova vacuum machine. And I want to talk about it, you know, because they have an awesome Black Friday deal going on, but I want to wait for them to respond some of the questions I had. So sorry, I'm not going to tell you anything about it. You know, I mean, right when? Anyway, so Wow. So, John, yeah, legally I know that we did it. Many people have done it we did it ex con cakes legally though outside foods always a problem. If you charge money, it's okay.

I have no idea. I think that's just more to like discourage people from doing it away because it is such a pain in the neck because it really requires your full attention. You have to get the beam filled with hot water to cut through the cake and then late like it's it's a time consuming endeavor we

come out with a glove and cut it cut it like chop cut it with gloves. Yeah, easier. Yeah. But I mean, if the deal age came in, could they hose you?

I don't know. That's a really good question. We've got some bells walking

by No, no, it's not Santa contact.

The elves are here. The white holes. Yeah.

Oh my god. Oh my god don't have a sound effect for that. Jeez, Louise. Oh my God, I'll pay $50 Anyone who goes out and like swipes, one goes out, you're gonna like lose that game. Where you like you get to get like in tech. And when you get down to you, like swipe their legs out.

Sweep the leg, Sweep the leg. They have candy canes in their hands, they essentially have a third leg. So I don't think that would work. If they

saw you coming out and do those things

or weapons. I was assuming they were going to try to hit you with that, that they're doing some sort of like Yoshimitsu situation with that thing. And they're gonna like, hit you with it. Anyone around anyone who's in a costume in New York City? I think it's an aggressive move. I think there's something is like something's amiss. Although I guess it is Rock Center.

It's kind of the territory. Santa cons.

The worst thing that's ever happened you guys you've never done Santa con. Have you? Please. Please, anyone who can hear us don't do Santa Claus.

Very quickly, Dave. As an aside, I was responsible for shaming Santa con out of coming to Bushwick. They were trying to move to Bushwick. And at the time, I used the platform of nighttime heritage radio to kind of get all the local bar owners to shaming them

away. And that's a good that's a

good very proud.

That's that's a good move. No small child needs to see. A 21 year old puking Santa's on the side of the street. No one. No child needs to see that. Yeah, of course. Yeah. But worse anyway.

Unless there was like that scene and 12 monkeys.

I don't remember. Is that that Brad Pitt movie?

Was it Yeah.

12 Monkeys was he's an amazing looking man kind of say that

Brad Pitt all the Santa Clauses that keep coming out and scaring the kids is awesome. Yeah.

Stars. How old's Brad Pitt? In that in that in that movie with that bed Tarantino movie with demands and stuff? How old? Was he in it when he did that? Like 50, right? I don't know. look fantastic. It was fun. Yeah, looks fantastic. That guy.

Anyway, it was only a few years ago.

Now. All right. So let's get to this book now that we've appropriately shot the breeze for half of the show. Let's get to this get to the book. So first of all, I think you know, as you said, Ben, like, it's kind of weird that in the and let's get this do this question before we get to the book because it's, it goes to the someone asked where we who asked a question about the word Tiki, someone asked a question about the word Tiki. Where is it? You guys know? Can you find it for me? Quinn?

Oh, don't have a document open right now.

Anyway, somebody asked it. And so we'll get to it eventually. But he has a very specific thing. People have been moving away from Tiki. It's an interesting time. So when we say tropical tropical is kind of the more modern term that encompasses What's it? Let's just get it out of the way now.

Yeah. Well, you know, I think some people erroneously say that that tropical is like the euphemism for tea that it's replaced with or I don't, I don't see it that way. For me, tropical drinks are a big tent. And Tiki is one slice of that. Whereas when we're talking about travel drinks, we're talking about drinks that have a Caribbean heritage, that you know, isn't only through the lens of Trader Vic and Dawn beach. You know, these are drinks that come from Cuba that come from Jamaica. And a lot of the things that Cara had worked with is more with those direct sources as well as obviously the guys from California, and, and Florida and other places. So the idea is that lots of things can be really tropical drinks are about celebrating tropical produce, which is, you know, amazing to taste. And also the you know, the traditions of the people who lived in those tropical regions and the things that they were doing. So I don't see it as a replacement for Tiki I think it's just a bigger, it's a bigger thing to talk about.

Right. So. So then, before we get into the book, so then how did like is there a disentangling between for instance, love of the 50s and 60s love of kitsch culture, and like this style of drink, because those those culture has been merged for so long, but I don't I don't know. We know kind of what the current thinking is of like that style, like, Are people still listening to like, serve music? And where does that fit in with modern, like culture and with this culture where, like, obviously they,

you know, Garrett can talk about that because I know Garrett is very knowledgeable with those things, but the book itself tropical standard. It's not it's not a kitsch culture, but oh yeah,

that's kind of the way we talk about,

we're talking about the classic drink, you know, experiences, which are nothing to do with how you dress or what music you listen to. But obviously, yeah, there's a certain I mean, there's a certain kind of people that I call them like Cold War reenactors, you know, they really want to go back to the 50s. And they want the drinks of the 50s, they want to close the 50s. Right, sometimes they want, you know, the politics of the 50s. Right. And that's the problem. That's not really what we're coming from, we're trying to celebrate these things that are actually some of them are a lot older than that, you know, things that were from the 1890s and 1910s and 1930s. And, you know, I think the the cultural part of it, we want to focus on the Caribbean culture, all aspects of it, not just the kind of reenacting, you know,

I also think the point of the book is to convey, like, the issues that we have now, when dealing with cocktail culture is that there's so much information out there. So it's contextualized in cocktails, and having the ability to, like, say that this drink echoes so many other things. So there are, there are drinks in this book that talk about, you know, something that occurred in Jerry Thomas's time, but also something that Audrey Saunders was doing at the same time at pegu club, that was, you know, contemporaneous to, you know, another tropical drink at the same time. So like, all these drinks, I think, speak to the volume of information that's out there, and how, like, you know, nothing is in a bubble really, like, you can't just say that, you know, a pre prohibition drink, you know, didn't have an impact on, you know, what, Don the Beachcomber was doing, and it doesn't have an impact on, you know, what a nomad bartender was doing in 2012. And I think we're really good about, you know, laying out the whole timeline and giving people a lot of context as to like, why these decisions are, and then what the changes are that we made to these cocktails, and like, what the thinking is behind them,

right? Well, I mean, what's interesting is, is that by and this is, what you don't see is that the book is very, and you know, you personally, very steeped in the history of spirits, the history of the places, the history of the drinks, right? The history of flavor combinations, but also in kind of the modern application of them, and kind of how they've evolved and where they might go. And so like, that's the piece of the puzzle that I think, you know, Ben, to your point, like, as opposed to doing like a reenactment, right? Where, you know, you're just trolling eBay for stuff so that you can be a better, you know, reenactor, right, is that this topic seems incredibly ripe for using new techniques, because the ingredients like need a lot you need, there's a lot of work that needs to be done to beat these ingredients into perfect cocktail shape, right. And there's a lot of things that can be done with these ingredients, that hasn't been done by the community that's interested in either the historical tropical drinks, or the modern ones. And so it's kind of this niche that's like, hello. And this book kind of fills that but also doesn't shun the history, which I think is obviously doesn't have any history, very, very kind of interesting lines. But I think

I think obviously you don't hit the point is, these drinks were lost for so long in terms of we didn't really know what the recipes were until people, mostly Jeff Berry, did the research and through many fortuitous events, found out a lot of these recipes and publish them. When I'm gonna, you know, recipes from Don Beach and Trader Vic, mostly Don beaches, recipes were never published, you know, professionally, unlike Twitter Vickery did a bunch of books. But so I think the idea was, because we didn't know how to do them the way they were done, then, when we had an idea of how to do them, we we wanted to replicate them, we wanted to do them the way they were done in the 30s, in the 40s, in the 50s. And I think that's great, because people needed to know what it was like. But of course, it's also impossible to really replicate things from then because the ingredients were all you know, the rums were different, citrus is different, everything's different. So if you even use that original recipe, and of course, there's also some interpretation as to what that original recipe was. But even if you use that original recipe, you're not doing the same. So I think what Garrett was able to do is try to think, you know, what's the intention? And how can we get closer to the intention, even if we do things a little differently in the technique,