Hello and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live from the heart of Manhattan the Rockefeller Center newsstand studios joined as usual with John here in the booth behind me. How're you doing, John doing great, thanks. Yeah, yes. Got Joe rocking the panels Joe Hasan, what's up? Hey, how are you guys? Happy holidays. Happy holidays to you as well. Live in Vancouver Island, not Vancouver. We got Quinn. How you doing Quinn?

Hey, I'm doing good, good, good. And

together again in Los Angeles. We have Jackie molecule's Anastasia the hammer Lopez. What's up guys?

Hi, hey, hello. Hey, and

we're gonna go back to our normal format. Like last week, we had Jack Papan on and we're gonna do our like, introduce our guests at the beginning and shoot the breeze like we've been doing and his assistant was like, he'll hate that. But this week, he's she's like, she's like, he doesn't want to hear more than one person talking once. We're like, okay, but this week's not like that. So our special guest today is tiny hop is how you do it. Fruit, the food grill. You know, as a food grill. We're going to talk a lot more about what you know what she does in general. But welcome to the show. First time on Thank you for having me here. All right, so now this is the part of the show where we just shoot the breeze about what happened last week, or whatever in the world, in life and in life in food. So who's who's got who's got who's got something good? Who's got John you got some foodwise No, no, no, I heard that. This is Jimmy John's first year as like the chef running a restaurant. All right. Oh, right. Yeah, congratulations. Temperance, temperance Winebar and everyone should go even though I have not gone since you took it over because well, well known I'm a bad person and the Stasi has gone multiple times multiple times and you enjoy the rest as you know wish she would go days I was gonna try to whatever man Jesus anyway so my point being though is he fell into the trap of not closing the place on New Year's Eve or Christmas Eve but also not selling it out. So now it's just gonna be there it's a loop of in major one

Yeah, it's not my decision to make unfortunately it's the owners so yeah, I have to abide. Yeah,

I haven't Well, I

hope that on New Year's Eve at least John that you do not come by your name honestly in the back of house and after you make like however many kidnaps you gotta make for the revelers that you just start pounding champagne, you know and as a because like,

yeah, at least there's that yes to cases of champagne. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

What what about what about over there in LA any any interesting food products? Food, things? Non food? Anything going on in Los Angeles that I should be aware of?

Are we gonna we are absolutely terrible meal at some bar and the worst burger maybe I've ever had. Oh, talk

to me about how bad your burger what

happened with us. Okay.

Describe the burger. Describe the please.

Okay, I ordered medium rare. Okay, because the burger is different. Maybe an inch.

Maybe take burger. Okay.

No, well, no.

Then you're not gonna get medium. No,

it was gray. You know? Okay. It was great. Right? It tasted like defrosted freezer ice. It was like, like water. Nice. Yeah. Really, really bad. And I have a pretty like, low bar for a bar burger and I'm not expecting the world out of it makes a lot for me to be like just bar burger is terrible.

Now did you what what did have cheese on it?

It did it was cheddar lettuce. tomato onion.

Yeah, it's still no flavor.

Just a very sad looking burger. I think so took a picture of it right? Yeah, I'll put it up put it in the discord. Yeah,

put in the discord. Put that. Put that stuff out there. I want to see Jack's sad, sad, sad burger. There is something incredibly sad. I remember when I used to occasionally be a judge on at the finals, the French Culinary Institute back when that existed. Yeah. And it was always like interesting when students somehow simultaneously over and undercooked it. You know, I'm saying Come on. It's well, it works. Well, well. Yeah. You cook the hell out of the inside. You hammer the hell out of the inside. But the outside still doesn't have like any sort of crust on it. And yet it's not more it's not a you steamed it. It's dry. On the outside, it's just there's no crust. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. And the inside is the inside is I have a new I have a new burger theory recently. Yeah, everyone's like all about crust now all about smash all about crust all about thin and they double up on pay. That's like, every five years, whatever changes wherever it doesn't matter. Yeah, I do believe though, that you need to use a more flavorful meat if you're going to use a thick Patty because you do get a lot of that inside burger. I like I like a nice flavorful meat. No, it makes a good meat are our friends Edwards Asian meat, they do make their hamburger meat now that I had their hamburger meat. I don't know that I cosign his name for it. Beef crack. It's a little bit. It's a little bit

not appetizing. Well, my opinion.

I'm not. I'm not like, you know, like, as someone who was a kid in the 80s. Like, I never understood crack becoming something that you want. That was like a positive for the addicts. Right. But that's the whole point. In other words, like, no, it's like, I was never for crack as a positive attribute.

My brain was on the whole other definition of crack. I didn't even know that's what I always assume that's

the ontology. I think it's the addictive nature to it.

No, no, no. The body part known as

Oh, the bug crack. Yeah. Beef crack. Like the Oh.

Thank you. Ah, and then like, even worse, was there any sauce on the sad little burger? Because like, a special sauce?

Oh, no. Was that it was their sauce? Yeah. When unsalted sauce. That's like, if a burger doesn't have salt on the outside. What is it? It's horrible that you know what? What about places that serve bar food, but don't put salt out?

Well, because usually it's already salty enough. It's already it's never dehydrate you so that you hydrate yourself at the bar.

Are you saying you trust people telling

you? Not really? You know this? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I want to trust people. That's my first move until you know, no, they immediately give me reason not to. Yeah. So tasting it. Yeah.

So stars. You were also there. Yeah, I was there. They tasted the baked Kcd. And how was that?

It was not so good. What? Oh, yeah. And then we go then we get $10 pretzel bite. They were like these little soft pretzels squares that look like they were microwaved and because they were just bad. Yeah. Wow. confusing part is it was like a nice room and a nice part of La you wouldn't think it would be this bad. It was very confusing. Wow.

Oh, Ella usually has really good food. That's

to me Sunday. Right? Yeah. So, but the company was Go ahead. Right? You're like we had a good time together. Yeah, yeah. I look, I have to say this, like it like at this point in my life, like I love like good food. But like, if the food is solid and the company is good, and the atmosphere is okay. And the and the servers aren't like actively making me angry. Like, by being mean to me or like, actively not bringing me like the one thing that's going to make the food taste good when it tastes like garbage now, like if that's not happening, I don't it's all fine, but like we didn't sounds as bad as what you had. It's kind of like that's a whole nother level. But was it bad enough to be funny?

Yeah, it was it was it was the presentation was really funny. Susie said burger on a plate with nothing else.

That's kind of a weird. That's kind of a weird I've been to places I would agree. Yeah, I've been to places that were so bad that it was hilarious until the bill came. And then I'm like,

oh, yeah, that kind of happened to us too.

Yeah, what about you claim you got any good food stuff going? What about your Did you taste your fancy out so Quinn? I don't know if you're gonna mention his credit. I don't know if I'm blowing your world up here. But apparently, I did not know this. Quinn. Where's your the fancy olive oil that you have from?

Oh, from Red Coover Island. There's an even smaller island called Salt Spring Island. And apparently, they have an olive groves. They're in there, the company that makes very expensive. Olive oil.

But like how many bottles they make a year like 300. Yeah. And you have 100 Now last time I spoke to you about it. You hadn't tasted it. I put a call into Captain oily Nick Coleman. He's like I've heard about it. I want to taste it and want somebody to soil. Yeah, he doesn't talk like that. But yeah, but yes, but like, for the purposes of the topic. Yeah, exactly. So So what does it taste like when How is it?

I haven't tried it yet. What

is Please keep it going around that house. It's a perishable item, my friend.

I know, I know.

Those will start drizzling on anything. Yeah. Toothbrush. I mean,

I'm I'm

you know, it's not it's not. It's not gold bricks. You don't keep it

up next week. It'll be next week.

All right, so next week we have no tangent Tuesday and Quinn will tell us about his his greasy his greasy, greasy tastes. And, John, you want to talk about joining the Patreon who's coming up?

Yeah, well before, I mean, in mentioning that any Christmas related questions need to be gotten by next Tuesday. And we'd make sure that Dave answers those on a no tension Tuesdays to become a member at patreon.com/cooking issues. You get a bunch of great benefits with that like joining the discord interact with a lot of our members, you get discounts and kitchen Arts and Letters discounts from some of the people that we have on the show. Yeah, different membership levels. So give it a join and get your questions

now. And if you're listening live call in to 917-410-1507 That's 917-410-1507 All right, so I have a little food. I will food stuff this week. I am now so like, Are you like Tanya you a mixer person? Do you like mixers? Like not like parties? Like like physical machines? Mix?

Oh, like stand mixers? You know, I'm not that fancy. I'm a great cook, but I'm like old school. But you know, I can appreciate it. Because if it's required why? Well, I got a new mixer.

Okay. Okay. And

you want to talk about it? And you talk a little bit a little bit. So like,

so I grew up KitchenAid right. So my mom had like, from like, I think maybe she was like given it when I don't remember her without it. Right? So it had to be like somewhere as before we moved to New Jersey, so it's before 1973 Or four, right? That weird Yellow 70s Yellow I bet mustard. Yeah, like light muster. Yeah, yeah. And old tilt the tilt head one you know what I mean? Not like the one where you crank the bowl up and down to one that's like smaller that you have when used to have in the bowl, like clicks and snaps. Yeah, they made that it was well those were well made. Yeah, we She used that thing up until like 2010 or something like this. And the and it still worked fine. It's just you know, whatever. They made money so that she got a new one eventually. I don't know. Isn't it called TV yellow. It's called TV yellow.

I believe it's called TV yellow. Because Because yellow was one of the only colors that actually popped on black and white television.

Oh, I know that. The Lone Ranger shirt was light blue. Not white because light blue looks whiter than white does on TV. Or maybe it's maybe it's like the way that the cameras registered. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know it's back here TV yellow. KitchenAid Yeah, for all of you that care really, really bad color gamut on old school TVs. I don't remember how crappy TV was made, like not only the quality of the picture, but like what was on you know what I mean?

It was a lot of channels today making money playing all that old nostalgic. Yeah. So how crappy was it? Dave? I mean, I mean, you know, TV was TV man.

Did I need to see every Gilligan's Island 25 times

tip need is the is the bailiff Yeah, I but we did you

know yeah, like the shows that were like What What? What? What TV market did you watch when you were a kid?

Philadelphia, oh, major metro South South Jersey.

Okay, they say it like that. But you didn't get you didn't get 11 Did you get Channel Nine WR eventually

getting those when they like they were like the later ones? Yeah, yeah. Because there was a UHF and VHF Right, right. Yeah, I kind of Yeah,

yeah, I was always like that my memory in the New York market. So kids watched Channel Five, which became Fox later in channel 11, which was WpX. And so it was all the shows that were on those two things. So like, Scooby Doo what's happening? You know Gilligan's Island,

Island Flintstones,

maybe he came on to like five though. Okay,

what time are you talking about right now?

I mean, like, I would, as soon as I got home from school, oh, like, I would turn on my only friend the television set. Yeah. And have that thing go

exorcise the life of the of the X the Gen X. Yeah,

yeah. You know, as an only child, I was like 16 So Oh, my God. TV my best and only friend name. Yeah, same. Here we are. Yeah. fella. Good. That did us anyway. So anyway, so I grew up KitchenAid. Right. This is how we work here. So I grew up KitchenAid. And the new ones like they're really powerful and they're really big, but they really really piss me off like they throw flour everywhere. Like last year. So Booker, my older son Booker, he like started liking to make cakes. He would make all of these freaking cakes out of the milk bar cook book like, oh, yeah, all these Tozi cakes. He made these things, but they will never He makes icing because he does not care. He's autistic. He does not care. So he'll just put all the powdered sugar into the KitchenAid and go

boom. And then like fun for him I would say it sounds fun. I mean,

how much fun was a cleaning it up?

First of all, my kitchen is like, just like just equipment everywhere, stuff everywhere and all kinds of nooks and crannies and stuff and like open storage, right? Because my, which my wife hates. She's an architect. I'm like, I'm not gonna open a door to get a bowl. I'm not going to do a bowl I'm using all the time and also all my bowls same size, right? So I'm like, I'm like, I have a stack of bowls all the same size and then another stack of bowls. All the different sizes now there's Yes. I'm not about lifting one bowl to get the other bowl. No, no, that's not I hear you man. Yeah. So anyways, so he puts the pattern sugary and goes food and like skoosh it like it like a

volcano like a powdered sugar volcano like a like a world

war one like war movie like a mine like oh, just like powdered sugar everywhere. And I was like, I hate this. I was like I like legitimately hate this. And also the new kitchen aides. And for those of you that like have KitchenAid at home kitchen is fine piece of equipment. The new kitchen aids right? The none of the beaters touch the bottom of the bowl. They used to Yes, in the 70s they work the small one but the bigger ones. I

can remember that clicking that noise right now,

right there, like a dozen adjustments. There's an adjustment screw that you can make, but you can't make the ball go up far enough. So everyone has these fancy kitchen aides. And what do we all do? John? What about the bottom we grab the freakin bowl with our hand and we like jam it up into the beater to get good contact. Why? And then God forbid you make like a stiff dough like a pasta dough. Right? You can't walk away from that thing because kitchen aides go much like you know much like your son's about to be a Joe like to walk. And then they're like Ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba right off the counter a kitchen table walk right off the counter. Anyway, what's the moral of the story day I moved to Bosch, which is Sherman for a couple of years. Okay, different brands, different brands. So there's three but everyone here only uses KitchenAid. Right? But in Europe, there's two others, right and some in the US right Bosch which I lived for a couple of years started ticking me off for different reasons we'll get into I've just moved I've gone Swedish. And cars and so far

are that have the cloud so proud of the harps playing or the angels singing I

only just got it but I really like it. I really like so far no mess open bowl. You can stick your hand in it without getting your hand mangled because of the way all right that's a row class the bowl.

Oh rotates but do we have contact? Is there contact there is three to

one contact if I watch that show growing up. I'm talking about Yeah, no, it's good. I know more report on later but yeah, but

I was gonna say the moral the story. New isn't always better. Is it? Right?

Well, the screen is the Swedish one. They've been making the same exact designs to 40 since 1940.

They just You just made my point. Because he kept the word you kept saying was the KitchenAid the new the new Yeah, they do what it's like, but the moral of the story is new ain't always better. Right. Well, yeah, I mean, that's just you know, I know that's like anti capitalist of me an anti consumerist of me. But if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Yeah, well, the only thing problem with the old ones is that is that everyone, everyone wants to be semi pro at home so they make larger batches if

they think they want to be semi pro.

Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so that's my that's my food story of the week. So not even food storage equipment story.

equipment to make food Yeah.

Also, I got pumped into buying a I got pumped into buying a West Bend potato chip factory. by one of our listeners.

I want one of those I fixie, I'm, I just got pumped. It just sounds great. So

it was made in the 90s like 1993. Right? In and the engineers must have been just like, Hi. Right? Because it's it's a machine who needs it's a machine like roughly the size of a toaster. Yeah. And you put like two cups of oil into it and and get this there has a chute on the top and you you stick up just just a potato one potato

into the chute and potato and onto potatoes by me

if you wait, and then you sit there and it slices the potato drops the potato in the oil moves that thing around, then lifts it and like dumps it out of a chute but get this for chips at a time. Okay, hello. I'm gonna keep doing it.

Okay, I was gonna say but if the intervals if it's like, yeah, and then you end up with however many chips one.

Yeah, and then you stick another one in top, but I was like, this is the nuttiest thing Ever. So,

is it faster than running to the corner store to get a bag of chips? Oh, hell

no, no, no, no, no. Well, but I mean, like the principle of it's interesting because you know, honestly, like the problem people have with potato chips is they put too too many in and then the temperature drops, which actually theoretically shouldn't be a problem but you need your temperature regulation just right, so that you get all the moisture out before they burn anyway, so we'll see whether it's any good the problem with it is tiny that it has no mechanism for salting it. Well then. Right? So they think it's like what am I what do I need to be salted hot where the weather's are one of my most was yes, it was a salt every four chips, salt, every forges is supposed

to be on the ready with a little ramekin of, you know, Chef salt you the chef thought thing, that's what you're supposed to do.

It's also I saw some videos, they're loud, they're like

four chips.

Like if I ever have a party again, if I ever do a party again, we'll just have it out there running

chips steward or chip facilitator but it's yeah,

it's like 30 or 40 levels below you ever watched the old Belshaw donut robots like the mark for donut robot that's the thing that I have you ever go to like an event you know you go to like, you go to like a pick your own joint and they have like those apple cider doughnut the head of the machine going to boom to boom to boom to boom to boom if you say so anyway, so like they make all different lengths. Right, but the one that I've always wanted, they make one I think that runs off of a 110 outlet that's about yay big so like a yard and the yard yard and a half long about you know, metre and a half for you Euro Folk and are everywhere else but here. Yeah. And it's like a long like oil trough with a with a doughnut doser like a plunger thing. And it just sits there and goes and puts those little apple cider donut and he thinks donut holes are like actual don't know like that. Well, they make ones that'll do full size. But usually that these ones do the minis like a hole in the doughnut. Like I remember the donut. Yeah, yeah, like that size. It's a so like, and then like, they float along the oil on this little conveyor. And then the conveyor has like, like a little like a little trough that flips and flips the donut in the oil and then keeps conveying it and then lifts it up on a conveyor and then drops it into where they're dry. And then you just keep eating the keeping the donuts, where's

the glaze? Where's the powdered sugar? Where's that step that

again, you just need to do that. So like what some people would do. They build a like a rotary carousel that comes off of it, but it's more money, right? That comes off of it. And then they sometimes they have like patterning or glazing units off the edge of that. But adjacent roads, the artist back in the in the 90s. He put one into an art exhibit once Oh, and at the Whitney Biennial, and I went to the Whitney Biennial, you know because I used to be an art right? That was my thing. You remember Rhodes? John John was a former art professor.

Who knew? Yeah, memorization really know and your collective talents here in this room.

I show up at the Whitney Biennial, and he has all these doughnuts with his donut machine. And I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, Listen, if you're doing this and your art is about this, I'm gonna eat this donut. And I ate one. Yeah, it was a day. Dale was art. Well, but the whole point like, like, as someone who's like in the art business at the time, I was like the statement he's making the idea that it's precious and that I can't eat this donut is absurd. You know, it's honest, that

opened the museum and I went edible food that's good in a museum, whether it's art, or especially if it's art.

Yeah. Yeah. All right. So actually, so that brings us to actual topics that we're supposed to be discussing today. So I was trying to remember where I first met you dine meet you at the French culinary? Or was it one of the I think I met you before we ever were doing low fat events at the French culinary because you used to do stuff different culinary, didn't you?

I did. Oh my goodness. Were you at one of those ridiculous crack of dawn meeting morning meetings. We used to have to plan the fundraisers and the events to raise money for scholarships for students. I

don't remember I used to whoever they told me to do.

Goodness gracious. Yeah. My friend and colleague Heather Johnston, who owns good wine, a food lovers wine shop. Brooklyn, three to 7/5 Avenue between third and fourth, third or fourth streets? Yes. We, she she's an alum. And I don't know we roped each other into things all the time I roped her into like, well fed meats mine for the thing, which we do we always do. She wrote me in for this. The French culinary needs people to help with the thing. But I'm not a morning person. And we had to go to these meetings at like, I'm not I'm not exaggerating, somewhere between six and 8am. I at the French Culinary Institute and I was you know, getting my espresso injected. And but we would sit around the table and like everybody's faces a blur right now why? Because not a morning person. So you might have been sitting across from me at one of those levels. Yeah. We might have met there. I have my memories of meeting you on Bay art Street when you guys had the physical location in Williamsburg. Yeah, yeah.

Well, kind of Williamsburg kinda wasn't really one sprain. Was it Williamsburg was a Greenpoint wasn't in between Williamsburg adjacent. We had Williams point. Greensburg. Yeah, it was kind of like nobody's neighborhood. Right on the edge. Nobody smelled it unless you were a skateboarder, in which case it was the place skateboard centers, a huge skate park right across. That's to be the name of the place skateboard Central. Yeah. If we had started the Museum of skateboarding. Oh, my God,

that would have been like, Yeah, please. Right, John?

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, yeah. Are there all the time? Yeah.

All right. So your social media moniker is, of course, we were working a lot together on the African slash American thing, which we'll we'll get to fast forward. Yeah. Yeah. So like, your social media moniker is the food green. Why don't you describe what the heck that means?

Okay. All right. Thank you, because people read that. The food Grieux gr IoT, and they're like, griotte, G riot. G riot. And I'm like, the T's silent. First of all, it's a Grieux is a West African, had trois, Creole, French and formed word that means storyteller, racconto, historian, poet, musician, many things I'm I don't, the thing that appealed to me about the name is storyteller, keeper of information, transfer of that wisdom, making sure that things get carried from one generation to the next. And, you know, just the things I would observe an African American culture, American food culture, black food culture, I was like, stuff is getting lost, and we have to do something about it. And, you know, and also narratives, you know, being written back into the story, like the storytelling aspect of it, the history part of it, and the importance of making sure that it gets transferred and continues. So, and because most, most African Americans, particularly in North America, African Americans have DNA from West Africa. Like, if we trace our origin and ancestry. It's coming from what is present day, Nigeria, Ghana, Senegal, like, you know. And so that's where this word comes from. And it's a word that's popular in those different nations that weren't necessarily those nations back when the transatlantic slave trade started. Anyway, that's my long answer. Does your I never answer that question the same?

Well, good, that many people have to listen to multiple interviews to get all of the different aspects of

it. The challenge, though, is I you know, I want it to be like the food and drink trio. But that's a lot of character for a handle, right? Yeah. Because like, I'm half liquid. I'm as much solid. Yeah, a lot

of the stuff that you like, a lot of the consulting work you do, right. Is is cocktail based rum based cocktail based liquid based.

All the boozes insert your hooch. Yeah, it's it's like a whole

that's another one. So we'll get that right now. On Instagram getting such a huge, huge searcher sounds a little dirty.

You know, it could work though. Yeah. Because of that reason. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, the great granddaughter of a speakeasy owner.

I read that on your bio crazy, like, Did you did you ever get to meet her? Yeah.

Yeah, she was, like, in 1900. She was an amazing cook. And, and she's, she was the oldest of like, 13 children. And the last one born in the county, the Maryland county that were the tobacco plantations were our ancestors. For for centuries, like since the early 1700s. Michael Twitty another mutual friend of ours helped me to trace to we're back to like, I don't know somewhere around 1730s this one particular area so my great grandmother was the last person born there before the migration, the great migration from that upper South and to New Jersey and Philadelphia.

But as your food culture growing up still that kind of mid Atlantic, Maryland, absolutely. So talk to me about Maryland beaten biscuits. What do you want to know? I don't know. Like maybe could beat the biscuits. Can we make sound are they can they taste good? Are they the last manufacturer stop making I'm 10 years ago, I think or something like this like the last like, like cottage industry group of people. I've never, I've tried to make beaten biscuits, but they probably suck. I don't have a target because I didn't grow up eating. So I don't know whether the ones I'm making are any good or not.

Ah, there, you

know that you can like them. I mean, here's the thing, as opposed to a deep southern beaten biscuit

full disclosure, I can't even eat that many biscuits. Turns out I have a modern wheat issue. Yeah, not celiac. But you know, like, yeah, so I just started I'm not a biscuit connoisseur my friend Carla, who I'm going to see after this. You might know J Yeah, she is a biscuit s expert connoisseur. And she makes amazing biscuits. She's even made me some amazing gluten free biscuits. That tastes delicious. So sorry, Dave, I can see the disappointment in your eyes that I'm not going to be able to just want like someone to help me in the beaten biscuit that

I 3d printed a biscuit darker to try to get the right shape on the freakin because you know, you got to beat them for mum Dokkum.

That sounds like Edom pops up. For him doc. What was the other?

I don't know. Print them. You got to print. So what else from Maryland? What else? What else? Like Give me some more Mid Atlantic so I don't really like my family. Like, my dad's whole side of the family is Baltimore. But Malmo. Right? Like he went to, he went to Polly. And you know, whatever. Glenburnie they ended up moving out to Glenburnie whatever. But point being, you know, when I was a kid, my grandparents lived in Colombia. So like that area, right? But I don't really know much about the food culture there other than like, it's

crabs. It's the birthplace of American cuisine, sir. I mean, arguably, that whole Chesapeake Bay Area, the so so that's the Maryland side. The other part of my family is the Virginia side. So between Virginia and Maryland, and all that history there. It's always interesting to me that it's never quite I serve it up as such, but it's never quite been served up as the important region that it is. And when I first got into culinary history, I was going into the deep south down into Mississippi to the southern foodways conferences, and, you know, trying to rediscover myself and my people and my culture, my food. And I was like, wait a minute, wait a minute. This is not the origin point. This is later along the timeline in terms of, of the this real, to me the essence and significance, the profound impact that Southern cuisine has had on the development of fine dining in America, particularly coming out of the Chesapeake Bay, Virginia, Maryland, Virginia and Virginia. We're talking a star person being, you know, coming out of Monticello, Chef James Hamming. Right.

And you, you were the one of the co founders, James having,

having society was originally foundation now Society, who influences Edna Lewis, Chef Edna Lewis, a century and a half later, born in a neighboring county. Right. I did not know that. Yes. So her people are descendants of like the Madison plantation area, whereas the Hemings are part of the Jefferson. And so that's fascinating, right? How someone born in 1765 influences someone born in what year was Edna Louis born she comes to new to New York in the 30s I think she was born in like 1916. So whatever that math is, 1916 take by her style, this this like, Virginia in French fusion style is directly a result of the ripple effect effect of James's culinary education and training that he did have the Monticello chefs and the neighboring plantation chefs that also were impacted by that style that defines that region, and then works its way north as restaurants become

right. Well, that you know, so I know that a big part of you know, when we talk about the scholarship, I'm gonna get to independent scholarship in a minute cuz I remember one time we were out at drinks and talking about how like, independent scholars get the get the shout

out there without a net man, I'm sitting here listening, taking notes. So you guys as Patreon tips, I'm like, Oh, no to self. I need to do that.

You're like, you really want to like, it's it's nice if people want to hear what I had to say. But how about getting paid somehow? How about,

you know, because honorarium is like codeword for, here's $5 or $100, which is equivalent to $5 today, but yeah, yeah.

Well, when John was an adjunct you saying it's not much better, like even if you're like, formally, you know, within the supposedly like the, you know, the embrace of academia. You're still hosed. Right? John's

in the union and everything was only $400 a class for a whole semester. Right now. In 2400, for the semester this semester, one of my classes I had 100 students,

the Chinese, John, you get the imprimatur of the university? Yeah.

Which it was a privilege

and a privilege. Yep. You bet we don't live hydroponically or but you know, solar power. I'm like, to eat some of the foods that I talked about, please

get this John's like, I'm being exploited here. I'm gonna go work for the museum

he's like, Oh, I'm gonna go work. Oh, and then after that, he's like, You know what, I'm gonna thought about it in the same sandbox. Yeah. Oh, my God. Okay. So. But I know, like, one of the subjects that, you know, is interesting, when we were first sitting around trying to figure out what that African slash American exhibit was going to be, is this whole fact that all of the kind of professional cooks, right, or an all most of the professional cooks and like a lot of where that comes from, like high end American cooking, hospitality, hotels, catering, all black? You know, and it's like, somehow, when cooking became cool. That got written out

when it became an actual profession, prestige and honor and salary, whatever compensation celebrity, right compensated celebrity status, because there are early chefs, America's first celebrity chefs, which I don't like to use that term applied to enslaved people who are have no agency for them. So oh, there was a Liberty just because that kind of makes us think that oh, hell cool. Like no, but they were the most famous, you know, well known, where James Hamming chef James Hemmings in chef Hercules Posey owned by George Washington. And Thomas Jefferson and James Hemings until James Hemings negotiated for his his freedom. He he was involved in his own emancipation, which happened in 1796.

And then wait, we're but the no one knows exactly what happened to him after that, right. Or like, it's

yeah, it's a mystery. Yeah, they say, the story goes that it was death by suicide, but chef Asheville, McElveen, the founder of James hammock society, and the living foremost expert on the details, the research of James life who, you know, in Paris, he's done research in Paris, and here in the States for years. He's got other theories, he doesn't believe it was suicide.

And so let's trace that like a little bit further. Because, you know, I wish I wish I knew about or could have gone to this to this dinner. So like, really rich, northern industrialists all used to hang out in Saratoga Springs. And the people doing the cooking, they're also black folks. And there's been a couple of good scholarly works on kind of the hospitality industry in Saratoga in the 1800s. But someone who lived in Saratoga and then came down to cook, go, I didn't even know about and and Northup you know, then you do this whole meal reek. You know, reconstructing something actually in the mansion. Up in right now. I used to, like my mom was is a was a doctor at Columbia. I was like two blocks from the Jumel mansion. My whole childhood growing up, I spent at 160/8 Street and the hospital like chilling whenever my mom was doing stuff. And like, I never even went over to that match. I never even saw it. And so you do this dinner, reconstructing like a meal that she would have cooked cuz she was a professional cook. Like sometimes in Saratoga and sometimes so we, you know, we hear obviously, you know, 12 Years a Slave, blah, blah. She was she was the one left behind to do the work when he got stolen and he was

what she was doing. She was already doing that he that's part of he is abducted, stolen. While she's away. She's She's a highly sought after. Very highly skilled technique, chef, I don't know if they would have called this black woman, a chef in the early 1800s. But she was in high demand for, you know, high up people in government and business and it was the season that she was, you know, had to do these fancy estate dinners and things and and he was a fiddler and a carpenter he had like they had multiple they all they weren't they both work. She had always worked and he

was kidnapped when 1840s Right. Somewhere around there. So in that in that area, yeah.

comes out in 1852. So yeah, somewhere like yeah, like late 30s, early 40s But part of why she ends up cooking and the Jumel mansion the woman. What's her name? Madame? Some? Yeah,

I wish I didn't know this turns out she married Aaron Burr. Crazy lazy.

There's so many dogs to get back the layers.

When he was old though he was old.

It's like later it's not like it's not earlier and

burn. Well, I read like he had the he had the fancy pedigree even though he had shot Hamilton, but she had the money. And so I thought it was like no

pedigree, which is why she was like, called herself mme somebody. Yeah, but she had the mansion. And, yeah, Gmail was her first husband or was Yeah, but she was irregular and the Saratoga Springs, and loved the food and so forth and wanted that, that level of cookery in her mansion for entertaining and dinner parties. And, and Northup was desperate to try to play a role in trying to find help her husband, so she being in New York City was advantageous to and to for different abolitionist and advocate allies who are going to help to find Solomon Northup. And, and so she comes with this woman to to live for a couple of years and cook in the mansion. So when I found this research out, and then I was like, Oh, the mansion is still there. It's going strong, you have a functioning kitchen. And like, you know, I was like, Hey, I was like, Hey, I just discovered all this research that I'm doing. And you know, any interest in recreating meat? Like, yes, I would have hoped that that would have been a ongoing thing. I mean, it was people are still talking about this thing, but

only did it once again, I will bite me. First of all, the tickets were cheap.

Yeah, they were too cheap. They were too cheap. was a lot of work. A

lot of work man whose tanning is $10. I looked it up it was $10 to like, go on the tour, which is like, fundamentally free. Right? And there was $65 If you wanted the bike multicourse

five course wine paired, you know, soup to nuts and salad and cake. Yeah, I was delicious. And I actually we recruited some students from ice I believe,

to help, I'll forgive.

But the fact that we're talking about this, and we could do things again, in real life, everything doesn't have to be virtual. Let's do this. Let's do this, man. Let's make it happen. Sure. But you know, I don't know who's in charge of the mansion. Now that you know might be new, new management, new people, new people we got to make friends with

Alright, let's talk about something else. Before we get into the reason why I desperately wanted to have you on right now. Okay, but we

did you know that the guy potato chips just to connect the dots earlier and became this portal to all these amazing chefs and cooks. The guy who invents the the black chef guy who invents the American potato chip,

right? Have you done more research on it? Because you told me that you were like still working on it like years ago? Like I don't know what the current theory of operation on the Saratoga potato chip. And yeah,

the black guy named George Crumb. Pun intended because George Crumb in the 1850s comes up with he's credited for creating the

popularize from for making work. I guess what I heard was that there was a butthead guest. Right? Who's like,

not crispy? Not quite nice. not thin enough. Not crispy enough. Yeah,

yeah. And that's the Saratoga. That's the Saratoga chip, right? He like so the chef crumb is like, how about now? He's like, No. And every chef knows this. Eventually chefs like Fu, right? Right? Hammer these sons? Yeah. And then he's like, yeah, like

he comes up with this, like delicacy at the time that we now you know, have a snack food. There's a theory that it might have been there's some people were saying his sister was involved or that there's a hidden black woman in the scene involved in helping him

Is that why we didn't go harder on the story and the things I remember there being some sort of some kind of block or some kind of, I don't remember what the block was, it's

just not the data itself. You have to be like a detective. Like, it's so hard to get to the bottom of a lot of these stories, but

also stories were written out. Yeah, right.

People just were not included. Yeah. Also,

like, for me, the personal this is like, you know, personal in museum in general and like origin stories in general is that like, most origin stories are at best embellished, it's like, who made it? Who made it popular? Who made it popular? What's the group of people that write a group of people not necessarily like the one author?