Hello, everybody, and welcome to a brand new series on heritage radio network called the culinary call sheet where we give a peek into the back kitchen of culinary media. I'm your host, April Jones,

and I'm your co host, Darren bresnitz. Part of why we started the show was to offer an unofficial mentorship for anyone who's interested in learning about all aspects of food and video, whether that's TV, social media online, or just something you want to do for fun.

Absolutely what was once niche or a little silly, as I'm sure you remember, Darren, when we started out, this man has now become such a massive playing field for so many creatives using food as the medium.

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We'll be covering everything from how to style your food, to how to license IP, to developing your own ideas, and some tips from the masters of how to host your own show.

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Today's program has been brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information visit heritage foods usa.com You are listening to heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. If you'd like this program, visit heritage radio network.org for 1000s more. Hello,

and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cookie issues coming to you live from Roberta's pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn on the heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 calling your questions to send 184972128 That's 718-497-2128 joined in the studio with Natasha hammer Lopez How you doing good jack that headphones are really loud. Well,

maybe just yours

maybe I actually haven't I think one or two but okay, normally I don't complain. I do. Suck it up. I just take your hand.

I wonder who was here before you someone someone's deal is that better guys?

Yeah. So listen, Jack you Well, you're not from Brooklyn anymore. But you still you know the Bushwick news right? So I'm the chickens. Yeah, so here's the thing I want you guys to know heritage heritage meets whose offices are right here in Bushwick over on Siegel Street, not involved with the largest cockfighting ring in New York history that was just broken up. I was it yesterday, a day before you read about this? Does? They the biggest copywriting? What do you know about it, Jack?

I mean, I used to live near some of those places. So I'd see all the live poultry markets kind of walk by but I didn't realize those live poultry markets were also you know, underground cockfighting rings.

Yeah, they busted a farm in upstate.

And, you know, that was a that was a component of the farm bill that passed actually included some some language and legislation on being tougher on on animal fighting circuits. So maybe that has something to do with that.

Really? I did not know that. No. Do you? Do we have any good references for people to go to on our website for our feelings as a as a network on the farm bill and what's going on?

Absolutely. Yeah. Tomorrow on our front page, we're going to run a piece that has opinions from Marion Nestle. Michelle Nishan, the folks over at just food and a few others. So we kind of sourced a whole bunch of opinions and broke down the Farm Bill. So check the homepage tomorrow. That would be Wednesday. Nice. February

12. Nice. Good lead in all right. All right. Yeah. Nice. Nice, strong. Okay. So we had a question on the Twitter from Matt Schuester, saying at cookies us Hey, Dave, any suggestions for a food dehydrator with a timer for a small 50 seat restaurant. I want to de moist things Well, I don't really have any, like, the one I use I use almost exclusively is the Excalibur, which, you know, most restaurant folks that I knew know also use the Excalibur but the question is, how much stuff are you going to dehydrate and on what kind of a consistent basis now the Excalibur doesn't have a timer on it but like I said, I haven't used ones with a timer my main experience comes from either using the Excalibur or the crappy round ones. Now the Excalibur just beats the pants off of the crappy round ones. And the reason is because it can hold a lot more than the crappy round ones can and because the way the airflow works in it, it's not coming up to the center it's kind of passed along all the racks from the back, it's a lot more even rack to rack but and the Excalibur is good because it's relatively small for the amount of stuff it can dehydrate. So, you know you can dehydrate you know in the small Excalibur which is when I have you can dehydrate like two pounds of pasta right in one go. Or you know things like that now back the kind of kings and queens of dehydration that I have met are the folks at pure Pure Food and Wine Sarna Mellon diocese joint and back in the day they used to run Did you visit that kitchen with me says No, they weren't they ran the entire kitchen was it was like a library of X calibers like x caliber stocked on X calibers like like whole walls of X calibers and that I was joking with her when I visited years ago that it was the hottest kitchen I'd ever been in in my life even though it was like raw cooking and didn't have any because all those friggin dehydrators running all the time. Excalibur I believe I haven't a ton of checking because I just got the tweet in but Excalibur makes a much larger version now. And I know some people that have used the Cabela's the Cabela's dehydrator, you know Cabela's the folks that you know they sell outdoor gear, although I hear that I've never been to a Cabela's store I hear that they used to be like the life changing sports store but now stars has a new one that we need to go to what's it called big bass fishing or you say it's like in the most amazing story have ever been in right, the one in Foxborough. Where's Foxborough? In the stadium, Gillette Stadium? What state? Massachusetts, Massachusetts. Yeah. And you said it was like the greatest story you've ever visited in your life? Right? It is they had like what it had that you could get mauled by a bear or something if you want it or they had shooting, fishing and shooting in the store. But one of those like where you hit the target with, with the not the crappy ones from the from the carnival, where they shoot all in different directions, and they can't actually knock the star out? No, this was really cool. I took Booker index last summer to one of those things. And they had to try they wanted to try and shoot that pellet gun. Oh, that's horrible pellet guns at the carny things. And like, there's one little bit of star left and they don't get the prize. I'm like, kids. That's how it works. You're not supposed to win. This is like learn like kids don't learn. I still have a twins that I want to do those kinds of things. Did you used to play carnival games as a kid? Because your parents didn't let you because you just like even back then you're like, I hate the carnival games. I don't know. I just never did know. So anyway, so ask yourself why you need Matt a timer on your dehydrator. Here's what I typically do when I'm dehydrating. And I'm sorry that my my recommendations can't I don't have any personal use of large ones. You don't always want to do for really large stuff. That 5060 seats if you're only doing a couple garnishes Excalibur is great. And then even up to the point of buying 2x calibers, I would do it that way. And here's why. You can have two different x calibers set to two different drying regimens. And you don't then need to the brain just turned off and the crazy happens sometimes branch off, you don't need to worry about whether or not two things are different. You can have two things that want to go at different temperatures going at the same time if you just have to x calibers. I've always wanted to want to do large scale stuff and I believe the guys at pure food did this also feel food, you know, Galeana Fernando's placed, that we did that event that they had, they have like a bunch of dehydrators. I think they had a larger calibers. Right. Yeah, notice back in the kitchen. Yeah. So the, what I would do is get a couple of those when you're using a dehydrator, I don't know that a timer is strictly speaking. So necessarily, what I tend to do is I start my dehydrators fairly high, because there's a huge temperature gradient that forms as you because you're evaporating liquid off of your foods that the gecko and they're still fairly high water, you get a lot of evaporative cooling around the surface of your product. And so to speed dehydration, I always start the dehydrator at a higher temperature, and then I turn it down. So a lot of times when I'm doing puff snacks, the main problem is you don't want to over dehydrate because then you don't have enough moisture left in the stuff to puff properly. So what I'll do is, is I'll just packet to like 135, which I don't know what that is in Celsius, but like 135 Fahrenheit for a couple of hours, and then I'll just turn it down to low down to like 100 or something like this, and then let it ride overnight. Now, when the fans are going, it's not going to pick up a lot of moisture unless it's extremely humid in your kitchen. And it'll slowly Aquila braid and come down. And then in the morning, if it's still a little bit too soft, it won't be too dry at this point, but was still a little bit too soft, then I can jack the temperature for another hour or so but I just leave them running on low overnight is typically what I do, we have to really low so you don't over dry your products. If you wanted a project, the Excalibur is a fairly good case except the plastic on it tends to break is the only issue with it. You could put a PID on it, I've never done it, but you could get a you could get some way of measuring humidity at those low temperatures and kind of measure the humidity in the box. Or maybe even if possible, you could just do it and then drive it with a with a PID controller so that it would ramp itself down. I haven't done it. But it's technically feasible. And I'd say you could probably do it for under 200 bucks. Even with the weird stuff you'd be measuring trivially less if you just want to put it on a timer and ramp so you can go to Auburn instruments or anything like that. And by a controller that you could put on a timer and Ramp Soak that temperature if you didn't care about external measurements, and that would be a trivial problem that would cost you blue like on the order like 45 bucks to do. And you know if you've never done them before, it would take you probably a couple hours to figure it out. But I always wanted to do that with a bread with a bread prover we were going to do that. Remember years ago we were gonna do that we never did we're gonna convert a giant bread proofer into dehydrator? I think so and probably does that commercially because it's a good idea. And it makes sense. Anyway, so much for dehydrators I was doing a bunch just wasn't doing my dehydrator pasta recently. I was doing Yeah. Hey, we got a caller. Caller you're on the air.

Hi, Dave. And it's Tasha. Jack, everyone. It's Brian, how you doing yourself? Good. So two things. One is I have a question about bread. But first is that never heard heard the final answer about making my own coaching from me the other week?

I know dude, I have not gotten a hold of Ryan yet is the reason why you haven't gotten the information yet. I need to get a hold of those guys. I've liked they've been they haven't been MIA. I've been MIA, which is why you don't have the final answer yet. So we'll start with the other one. And I still owe you that answer.

Well, thank you very much. I'll hold on for that. But this one has to do with with with bread baking at home. So I don't have a deck oven. Here, you know, so I have no possibility of you know, injecting steam into into into my oven, you know, through the oven itself. And so my question is, you know, I've been doing a little bit of reading, and I'm looking at a couple different books, and one is the Tartine bread book, which says they use a combo cooker. It's kind of like a Dutch oven, basically, in which the kind of the smaller part, they kind of bake essentially on the lid. So it's basically like a Dutch oven as a way of kind of capturing the steam and then the

other one I mean, like, like Leahy style.

Exactly, yeah. All right. So except that if you use what's called a combo cooker, it makes it easier to not burn yourself. And then the other other thing and it made by loads by the way. And then the other thing I'm looking at is the Bucha and bakery cookbook from Thomas Keller, and Sebastian who excel and they're saying basically take a ridiculous amount of river stones and chain and put it in, in in the bottom of the oven as a way of capturing all the heat and then take a Super Soaker and inject a huge amount of water into the oven. So it all kind of turns turns to steam. And I'm kind of wondering, what's the best way to get steam into the oven. Which of these two methods would be most most effective for bread baking?

Okay, now your oven is under fire gas oven.

Yeah, okay. It's the standard standard home gas on it,

right? But the heat comes from then from below. Correct? Yeah, can you can't pull that like if you have like an electric oven with upper elements and stuff like that. You can't pull that lower chain and the reason that the chains and whatnot on the bottom of the oven is because that's where the heat is most intense. So that's like an old school, you know, bread bakers way to kind of you know, do you know kludge having not having you know, real steam injection. And it works the way that it obviously sounds it's going to work by literally use you put a bunch of stuff in the bottom with thermal mass, let it heat up. Right, and then indeed, these stones I'd be a little bit wary of because everyone and says like river stones aren't going to break. I've put stones that I thought were pretty smooth in fires and had them blow up before. Now the ovens probably maybe not be violent enough to blow a stone apart. But I don't know, you know what I'm saying? You know, I've put I've put many stones on fires before for for various reasons, and had them explode kind of expect tactically explode. Now it's inside of an oven, but you wouldn't want to be lowering your oven and putting your face in there when you're loading something to you know, just to have something explode on you. You know what I mean? So, I don't know,

I think that's the Supersoaker where you can do it from a distance.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Good idea. Supersoaker I forgot super. When you said Supersoaker. You know, I was in my head. I was thinking spray bottle because that's what I'm used to. Supersoaker interesting. My kids would love it. If I had to bring a supersoaker home to cook with, they would absolutely love it. But the so I mean, that works. Right? The you know, I've never done a lot of the like Leahy style by the way, that thing you call a combo cooker. Is that like their camp oven? Is that the load camp oven? Like their old Dutch oven,

Google Google combo cooker. And so basically, it's it's got a like, what the lid would have a handle and I think he'll cook on it separately. It's kind of like the lid would be the skillet and then you put the pot kind of right over it. Is this the technique? In this case? Oh, inverted. Inverted. Yeah, gosh, you're not having to like try to jam the your dough into a hot dutch oven.

Yeah, I think that's like the old camp cookers that you could flip the lids on do stuff like that. They're pretty cool. Do you like it?

I don't have one. I'm trying to figure out whether or not I should get one. Or if you know, I should go with the with the Busan method.

What do you like the Leahy's? Do you like that Leahy style like that? No need kind of very loose like large internal irregular bubble stuff cooked in a Dutch oven. Do you like it?

I've I've tried it in a in a Dutch oven at a friend's house and the dough in tasted fine. But the problem is you got to shape it into a bowl. Yeah. Right. So you can't have other shapes of bread?

Well, I mean, that dough is so loose anyway, that you're going to it's going to be problematic, I think to do, at least the recipes of it I've tried is very loose, I would try that. It

doesn't matter what, you know, what the what the dough is necessarily? I guess my question has to do with the method. Right. And and I guess the other problem with that is that, you know, in addition to what it does, in terms of capturing scenes, how does it change the temperature of the bread? Because then you have this kind of radiating heat source around around the bread, in addition to the oven.

Right? Well, I mean, I think of it mainly, I haven't thought about the second aspect of it, I've really spent most of my kind of mental energy on thinking about those things about the actual ability of a closed but still vented container to deliver steam to the crust over the initial portion of the bacon before the initial dehydration hits it, right. And look, it's effective. Like I, I tend to, you know, you know, when I was doing it, I used I didn't use river stones, I had a lot of masonry at the bottom of my oven, and I would throw water on it to cause kind of, you know, violent steam eruptions, whatever, you know, when I loaded and when I when I didn't, and I always had good luck with doing it that way. I never did the change because I had a lot of mystery. The reason why a lot of people don't recommend this is the flip side of putting a lot of masonry or, you know, or stones or chains or stuff in chains aren't going to affect the thermal mass of your oven as much because metal heats up fairly quickly. But, you know, in my the first one I did, which had a boatload of firebrick in it, it would take an hour and a half to heat up all the way you know what I mean? And, you know, I solved that in the last oven. I haven't modified my current up well I did a little bit but I haven't fully modified my current oven. In my last modified oven I did I put secondary heating elements into into my into my oven. And the secondary heating elements allowed me to heat up a massive masonry fairly fairly quickly. Which now you know, I'm using less masonry as well more nimbly with with the heating elements in it. So you know if you could get away if you like the results by doing the kind of chain and steam method. The thing I like about that is it leaves you a lot more open with loading your oven and futzing around cuz you're not worried about having to fit inside of some sort of Dutch oven or skillet thing you can just have your stone or if you're a steel person if you if you you know, by the modernist cook Doing story and switch to steel instead of stone for your bottom, it gives you much more ability to load things in different ways. That makes sense.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it just enables you to make different shapes, I can make backups and things. It doesn't have to be Round and fit into the, into the, into the Dutch oven. But as far as steam injection, you're not sure which is going to be most effective. No simulating that. Okay, no,

but you know, I've had some people say to me, Hey, you know, the steam dissipates very quickly when you just put steam. And you know, the other thing people used to do is they load ice cubes in on sheet trays right on the bottom of the hot oven, and then they would vaporize fairly quickly. Because a lot of people complain that the toss of water on the Steam dissipates so quickly, that you're not getting the full effect that you would want that that's the argument for the Dutch oven being the better technology because it's going to contain more steam around the bread longer than throwing the thing. And that's why some people used to do like kind of ice cubes on the bottom instead of instead of water because it was guaranteeing like a longer delivery of moisture to the product. I don't necessarily know I believe that, I'll tell you what I'm actually going to do. But I don't know how you know much you're allowed to modify, modify your oven, I'm planning on getting. Like, there's most ovens on the side where the control stuff is have a place where you can drill a small hole, and I was going to drill a small hole into it and then have a copper tube feeding up out of it with like a bottle that you could set like an IV drip and just have it drip water in and you could change whatever rate you want and actually add water to the oven with the door closed. And that's what I'm going to do you know fairly soon like that might just handed my my book manuscript and again the copy written so I have a little more time so hopefully I'm gonna do that in the next couple of weeks. The other thing Have you bought for loading? Have you bought a super peel yet? No, I haven't you seen it though.

I've seen it. It's like, you kind of pull it and then the canvas kind of rolls down.

Yeah, it's friggin awesome. I haven't got a chance to use it that much. But it's friggin awesome. I bought it for my for my kids birthday party when I was going to do a bunch of pizza and Dagnabbit it's like I used it as soon as you ever do that kind of baking bread and that kind of stuff. I like detest loading stuff often on peels. So much so that when I used to do pizza, I would make the pizzas on parchment paper, and then cut the parchment paper out and then just load all of my racks with with pizza loaded on parchment and then cook them on the parchment paper because it's so easy to load parchment off and on. But the super appeal. I like it so far to check it out.

Sounds like it's probably really good for a really flat dose.

Oh yeah, maybe because you're not touching you're not moving it around. If you look if you don't have done any bread loading on peels before put the pros that was make it look easy, but I don't bake bread that often. You know, and I hate having to shake it and then I hate over over you know over flowering or over whatever you add wherever you're, you know, the bottom on the bottom. I hate that and then you get that little extra crap of like, you know, either flowery or like burn on the I hate it. You know what I mean? I hate it. And I hate the thought of it sticking I hate sitting down there and, and squeegeeing around with it near my oven. I hate it hate it all but the super peel. You know, that's pretty cool little piece of kit get on Amazon now by the way. Look into it.

What do you think about those baking skills that Modernist Cuisine recommends you think that just getting the river rocks and in the end, the chain is just as good?

Well, the river rocks in the chain is not to bake right on top of that's for literally just for the steam aspect of it. Right. So it's not meant to replace is not meant to replace the way in which heat energy is delivered to the bottom of the crust on an you know, on initial bake in, in breads and so the old school way of doing it, which was based literally on trying to convert your oven into a you know, an old masonry oven, you know, so if you go and you read like the bread builders, by my gosh is by dove and wings, Scott, I think I forget the names of the authors, but the bread builders, which was one of the first you know, decades ago, whatever, a couple decades ago, like one of the first kind of really cool, like, here's how to build a bread oven book for folks like us. And, you know, it's like mimicking a bread oven inside. That's the baking stone right. Now, the thing about a stone is is that they store heat for a long time, but they're very slow kind of at releasing it. It's kind of retained heat kind of technology. Whereas the guys at Modernist Cuisine, and I've spoken at length with Chris Young about this, who's now running ChefSteps and you know, I think this was in part like his doing well, at least at least 1/3 and far right because he was the second author on that book is you don't need to store up the energy for a long time. You You just need to deliver it fairly quickly at the beginning. And so you need a thick enough piece of metal such that it can store enough heat to deliver that heat wall up to your crust. And that is the idea of the steel as opposed to the stone. Right. And clearly, it's more versatile, but I've just haven't really had an opportunity to use it because by the time that had come out, I'd already invested in a bunch of stone, and it cooked a bunch of it, but I have one now I haven't really used it yet, I'm going to see whether or not I like it when I fire up my oven next time. But, you know, they, they, they did a lot of testing and they have a lot of testimonials around it and people are now selling those those metal things at the at the housewares store. So you know, clearly clearly must have some efficacy.

Yeah, sounds like it but I'm wondering if it's too much for sounds good for pizza where you want one a quick and band to deliver all that heat, but I'm wondering if your bread and might be too much. And which are the bottom Do you think?

I don't know, you know, I don't think it'll char the bottom because it's never going to reheat up over the top of your initial of your oven temperature. So you know, if you're if you have, you know, depending on how you cook, how you bake, you know, if you you know if you use a ramping temperature so if you're one of those people that starts a little bit higher and then ramps down a little bit they stone will never mean the metal will never heat above your oven temperature. You know what I'm saying? What it will do is deliver that initial oven temperature for longer to the bottom of your crust than any other technique will a stone will deliver a more will deliver heat for longer but once it's depleted will not heat back up to oven temperatures as as quickly or at all. You know what I mean?

Right, right. Okay, this has been really really helpful. All I'll let you know what I end up going going with and see what happens.

All right, cool. Let us know All right. All right. Thanks. Have a good week. Bye. Bye. Thomasville road in a cooking issues clarifying with ag our ag are my favorite clarification seaweed. Even was Aguilar is like the one thing where like we say ag AR But like a lot of people technically say ag AR ag or like they say it twice. The hydrocolloid so nice. They named it twice. Edgar Edgar stars hates working with Edgar, don't you? I do. Remember that time we had to do all that grapefruit and we did a freestyle on it. And then it didn't work. And so then we had to do, we had to we had to do like quick Agbar on like gallons and gallons and gallons and gallons a grapefruit. And then we were spinning that sucker in the centrifuge and trying to pour it off. And then we kept on having to re spin it to get yield because our yield wasn't good enough. And we needed to get that crap out. We had that event. Yeah. And you remember, what do you say to me? I'm never doing this again. Yeah, I believe. Now, it's like three years ago. Yeah, you're like I'm never doing this again. Yeah, you're like ask for clarification. Dave. Not me. I won't do it. You don't mind? SPL you could do this dino. Yeah, I'm fine with that. Yeah. Okay. Clarifying with Aguilar juice has a funny medicinal taste post clarify. Is this normal from ag are any brand name recommendations? Thanks. Well, I only use telephone brand ag are actually that's true. I do only use telephone brands. But that's because you can buy telephone brand Aguilar from grocery stores like Asian grocery stores. Now I have that oh my gosh, I have that Spotify the new single Asian grocery store anyway so the but the thing is you know you can use any Aguilar as long as you get used to it. I wouldn't use the pre hydrated ones or the ones that don't require boiling because although I haven't used them I know friends of mine who have had bad luck with them. The I've never had an off case from Aguilar to be honest. What I would do is taste you're literally taste the egg or powder and see whether or not you're getting any sort of off taste. What I think is happening is this the taste of juicers changes sometimes quite radically when you clarify them. So what's most likely happening because you don't specify what kind of juice that you're using? Is that there are some flavors that this medicinal flavor was present already in the juice but was being masked by another flavor that was removed by a clearly a better flavor than was removed that was removed by the Aguilar so just to give you an idea when you ag are clarify orange juice the remaining orange juice tastes the clarified stuff tastes like Sunny D right? So if you like Sunny D then I guess that's good but you know most people want to choose to taste like orange juice and not like I think it tastes more like Sunny D than like Tang when you taste it as does. Do Did you drink Tang growing up? No, my best sunny day. Yeah. Do you like sunny day? Because you grew up with it? Yeah. So anyways, so that's my Feel like so when you clarify grapefruit juice with Algarve it appears to get much sweeter, it's not actually getting sweeter. It's just an arrangement and some of the bigger components have been stripped from it by the agar. So my guess is that it's not the brand of ag or you're using, it's the fact that there's flavors getting stripped out of it, but I could be wrong taste, taste the egg or I don't I'm a big believer in tasting a lot of these things at least once to see kind of what's going on and some hydrocolloids definitely do add a flavor to it. But think about it when you're clarifying with Aguilar, you're adding two grams per liter, that's two tenths of 1% of Aguilar. And you could add, you know, to get like two grams of straight acid for instance, wouldn't change wouldn't make a liter of product that acidic, you know what I mean lime juice for reference is around 6% acidity and this is two tenths of 1% or 10 times 30 times less acid that's in lime juice, it's the equivalent of putting one ounce of lime juice into a liter of liquid anyway. So I doubt that and that's a very strong acid so I'm doubting that you're getting the flavor transfer off it but I could be wrong things like methods so you standard tend to start tasting once the percentages get you know, up into the 1% range things like this, you know a 10th of a percent or 1% things like guar which can have a very beanie taste guar if you don't get the good one fracking wore it you know that can have a beanie taste that you can taste when you get over about half a percent but not Aguilar haven't had a problem with Oh, unless you're using those weird like unpurified like Aguilar flake let's which might have God knows what kind of like seaweed residue left in them you just make sure you're buying the powder, the powder, white powder, take a break we'll take a break come back back with cooking issues.

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as you get excited. Yeah, yeah,

well good anytime you got banjo music banjo music the

best others the chickens that excited Well, it's chickens plus banjos. How

do you beat chickens plus banjos especially coming off of a cockfighting bust impossible.

Hey, Dave, by the way, we were at the Eat Drink Bloody Mary competition again this year. Oh, yeah. And I enjoyed the booker index kind of was a pineapple curry. Because it was a wacky Bloody Mary you guys had there?

Did you like it? That's a bartender our bartender Austin that that was his creation only thing I helped them with is they were having some problem in the mid palettes I hadn't put a little tomato paste in to round out the mid palate but yeah, he did not when I heard it did not win who won

the judges choice went to Dover and then the People's Choice went to extra fancy which was like it's funny the People's Choice went to the the most classic standard Bloody Mary and I was like, Of course of course where does the line sit? You know like when does what you're making cease to be a Bloody Mary or for that matter? Any classic cocktail right like,

look like like this? thing is is there anything that you do this if you're going to do classic you know you're gonna you're gonna do classic when people want to crap that they're that they're used to that's why like every year like last year you know we did the we did the tomato soup with the with this grilled cheese sandwich for for the Bloody Mary. And people in general want you know they want what they want but they would they would they're used to it's kind of sad but like unless they're specifically going someplace to have it reinvented people in general just kind of want stuff what the one that one the judges choice was it wildly different or

it was pretty different? What was it? It had some kind of weird spices in it? I don't know, there were a lot to taste. I remember being one of the funkier ones though. But I mean, it's like, is it even a Bloody Mary anymore at that point, you know?

Well, I mean, these contests, right, like, here's the thing, look, let's say you were going to make a contest, people in general, they like a good story, this contest. Now, they like a good story. And you have to reinvent it. Otherwise, what's the point? Like it's not about, let's get, let's get five people in the room. We'll all make the same daiquiri specs and you'll see who makes the best Daiquiri. You know what I mean? Bloody Mary is a good one for people because everyone has their own. It's kind of like barbecue sauce. Everyone has like, their like, Well, my barbecue sauce, exactly how much brown sugar and and, you know, other stuff and do I put in, you know, whatever molasses or whatever vinegar, it's like, because they're all roughly the same, but people are like, people are like, you know, violently proud of their particular mix of the same ingredients that the next fella uses or they're like, I add this one special ingredient that makes mine radically different, not really radically different, they're all fairly similar, you know what I mean? And so, winning contests like that. There's kind of different ways you can go in a Bloody Mary contest. There's the radical difference idea and then there's, you know, where you take, hey, I'm doing a spicy tomato based cocktail. Now where can I go with that it's totally different you know? Or you could say I'm gonna go you know, with a very similar concept but then I'm going to add like my special pickle to it I'm making little quotes fingers and that's another way to you know, that's another way to kind of handle these contests in general someone who does something that has a flavor profile fairly similar to what people are used to tends to win you know, if you have like a little bit of like, you know, flair added to it like great but that's been my been my experience.

Like I don't like Bloody Mary so all the ones that I was voting for were the ones that didn't taste like Bloody Marys.

Wow, and only buddy mares What are you having a Bloody Mary?

I don't know it's to me it's like a meal. Like me

Like a meal? Yeah. All right.

So as your boy Mary's not really right. For real.

What is it because you don't like what don't you like about them? It's like a meal. Heavy. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I hate most kind of gloopy gloopy drinks, but that's the one that gets a pass for me. I don't like I'm part of this new new thing that we're all starting where you don't have to eat them at night. I don't think you necessarily need to have the meat sorry. In the morning. I think you can have one at night even though we started the bar with with a drink called Lady the night which was a Bloody Mary that was clarified so that you could drink it at night. I think you could drink it during the day. Let's not forget someone asked me this the other day. And I remember when I was a kid, you weren't supposed to have gin and tonics in the wintertime it was summertime only it was the equivalent of work which is the which is the holiday that ends the summer stuff. Labor labor Labor Day you know you're not supposed to wear white after Labor Day. Anyone remember this day? Yeah, so it was the same way with gin and tonics you weren't supposed to order gin and tonic after Labor Day either it's kind of when you can wear white is when you can also order drink gin and tonic right? I mean, I never wear white but but the the that's the point but that taboo is gone. I mean, no one has a stigma now walking into a bar and ordering a gin and tonic anytime of year people don't even think of it as a seasonal drink anymore. And so I think the Bloody Mary might be going that way where it's not only seen as you know, kind of a morning thing I mean, think if you think about it, people can order a corpse Reviver whenever they want a corpse Reviver is meant to be a little hair that dog that bit you for like heavily alcohol infused people in the morning. Anyway. Wait, Jack, we got a caller we do. Caller you're on the air.

Hey Dave. It's me, Donnelly.

Hey, John Lee.

I'm calling in to remind you that you are barbacking for us on Sunday at a mo fed fundraiser at the Golden Cadillac.

That's, that is true. That is true. From what time 5pm to

5pm until 7pm. We're gonna do $8 cocktails, courtesy of Pernod Ricard and all proceeds will be going to the museum of food and drink.

Are we getting? Are we getting Missy Elliott to recut Get Your FREE gone with Kate Your drink on for that or is that later?

I think that's gonna be the next fundraiser next fundraiser.

Did you get your drink on? That'd be great though, right?

This time you get to come harass me and John Derek on bartending together for the first time in three years. And he's gonna make some Malibu drinks. I want to make some fluid drinks, and we're going to, we're gonna play molecules to make a bad cocktail stays good.

Sweet, sweet. Well, you know, I hate molecules. I don't like them. Because I don't like matter. I don't like existence. So I did test all forms of molecules. But what was the last time what was it three years ago? Would you guys do three years ago,

we were at a PDP we open PDP together. That was only three years ago. That was we opened PDP five years ago.

That was only five years ago. Yeah. It was only five years ago. It seems like eight lifetimes ago. Yep. So yeah, Don Lee and John Aragon were the opening team at PDT and brought you such drinks as the Benton's was it Benton's what would you call that drink? Bentonville? Fashion? Yeah, with the with the fat washed. The fat washed with the fat wash

bourbon, Benton's bacon into four roses yellow label. And for the record, you're allowed to totally do bacon, infuse whatever you want. I'm not gonna give you shit

about that. No, but I'm not I will never do it. I won't. Like you guys own that. It's like, in fact, in the cocktail book like the the maria Made me put a fat washed. That's my editor made me put a fat wash drank in. And so I did a take on Do you remember? You know Tona Palomino, who was a WD 50 is now doing bar in in Chicago. He had a drink on the menu at WD called Old School back in like, oh seven. An old school was fat washed. What's it called? What's that stuff called peanut butter. But it was he did it on Faraj style, he would like spread a thin layer of peanut butter on the bottom of a hotel pan and then pour the stuff on top. And then they will let it sit in the fridge forever because he's going to carbonate it so he couldn't. He couldn't mix it in because because peanut butter has a lot of stuff that dissolves into liquid and doesn't doesn't cap out the way bacon does. Right. Right. And so yeah, so he did that and he would mix in Welch's grape jelly and then carbonate it which is awesome, right. So I did I did a take on that one because a finger yo PB and J and so many other people have ripped on the on the bacon thing that like you know, I couldn't I couldn't add like another there was there was no places left on the page to tear I couldn't rip on it anymore. You know what I mean? So anyway, but yeah, so that for those of you you know, you should come and the reteamed original PDT team. Oh, gee PDT. Right, Don Lee, for those of you that don't keep track of Donnelly's career as I'm sure most of you do. is now doing the bar program with it cocktail kingdom. But he's now doing the bar program. Is it temporary? Or is that permanent? It's permanent. And so I'm still a cocktail kingdom and then I'm also doing Golden Cat. Now my golden Cadillac that's permanent bar program or that's temporary permanent bar program. Okay, so Donnelly is now running the bar program at Golden Cadillac which is a fine bar on first and first here in the easiest address to remember in the world first and first. I couldn't remember what the street was first and first golden Cadillac and you got the awesome menus with like the with the really poorly done 70 style cutouts of the drinks on the back. I liked that. We're trying to keep it classy. It's totally totally classy. You can go there and get an overproof daiquiri with Tom the garnish done. But disco ball. It's