Hello, everybody, and welcome to a brand new series on heritage radio network called the culinary call sheet where we give a peek into the back kitchen of culinary media. I'm your host, April Jones,

and I'm your co host, Darren bresnitz. Part of why we started the show was to offer an unofficial mentorship for anyone who's interested in learning about all aspects of food and video, whether that's TV, social media online, or just something you want to do for fun.

Absolutely what was once niche or a little silly, as I'm sure you remember, Darren, when we started out, this man has now become such a massive playing field for so many creatives using food as the medium.

It's something that has driven us professionally and personally, for so many years. What excites me the most about this show is that we're going to sit down with some of the industry leaders to hear how they made it and what drew them into this industry.

With 20 years in the culinary production game ourselves. We're hoping we can give through these conversations an insider's view into personal stories from the field, as well as an in depth behind the scenes look into some of the most popular food programming. In today's evolving culinary media landscape.

We'll be covering everything from how to style your food, to how to license IP, to developing your own ideas, and some tips from the masters of how to host your own show.

Yeah, it's a little bit of conversation, how to and how do you do the things that you do in color media, which I'm so excited about? I love so many of the guests that are coming on this season. We have talent from Food Network from Vice media eater refinery 29,

we've met some of the best people in the world both in front of and behind the camera. And we're bringing them all together to share their stories, their delicious adventure and their unique journey into this crazy world.

So to be the first to hear our episodes when they launched this fall, go to wherever podcasts are streaming and hit subscribe and make sure to give us a follow at the Culinary call sheet on Instagram.

Today's program has been brought to you by underground meats an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. For more information visit shop dot underground food collective.org Or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin. You're listening to heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn, if you like this program, visit heritage radio network.org for 1000s more.

Hello and welcome to cooking issues. Dave Arnold, your host of cookie cutters coming to you live from the first pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn, on the heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to 1245. Here as usual with the hammer how're you doing? Good. And Jack in the booth. How you doing? Hey, it's just it's just the seal school crew today. It's good. It's just the stars and the jack and the mean nice right? Stars likes it that way. No offense to Joe. She's feels like she likes it. Like old school. Now. You're now stars. You have a problem with Jim. Oh, man. Yeah.

And started it.

And interesting. We brought back the song by Joel Gargano. Because Joe has a question. And today. Since Did you sense that you felt it? Does? The stars tip you off?

No, I shouldn't really.

I will before I go in calling your questions to send 184972128 That's 718-497-2128 Jack

have some good news.

Jackie. You have good news.

Oh, right. Yeah, good news. I'm sorry, I wouldn't share this kind of personal information on the show. But Anastasia is so happy that I'm leaving Brooklyn. I'm moving to New York City.

Now I like Well, here's here's the thing that might interest it will only actually interest people who are from New York, those other people just you know, bear with us for a second but so a quirk of New Yorkers. Is that it when you live in when you live outside of New York City and you ask someone from Brooklyn, you know, are you from New York City? They'll say yes. But when you're inside the city, the city is really just Manhattan starts backing me up on this right. Yeah. And so even even Jack long time Brooklyn pusher, you know, not in the you know, not in that sense, but you know, like, like a booster. That's how I met but Brooklyn booster. Moving to Manhattan now admits he's moving to the city. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what's the reason jet?

An opportunity has come up. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. So you're no longer gonna live in a bubble up, up, up, up, up, up up Bushwick.

I mean, you know, I'll be here a lot, but my home will be the city. That's my first home anyway, when I moved to the city went to NYU, so yeah,

yeah. Nice. Well, welcome back. Welcome back to our side of the river jacket. This is stuff that only makes sense to like to, to New Yorkers, though, right? As people, you know, you know, what pisses people off? Who don't, who don't live in New York, when you go to their city, and then they say, you know, when you're going back, you're gonna go, I'm going back to the city. And then you give the date. You're going back to New York, and you're like, What do you mean, the city? Like, it's a city like, I also live in a city, you're like, No, no, I'm in LA. Now. I'm going back to the city next week. You don't I mean, people hate that. Right? Yeah. Yeah. My wife used to hate that. In fact, she mentioned that to me, when we're going out like 20 years ago. I'm like, What are you talking about? And turns out, it's true. I've paid attention. People do get upset. Anyway. Back to Joe's question. Hey, crew. First off, I finally met Harold McGee at the Harvard lecture in September that you guys did that? Didn't see him there. Do you see him? No, I didn't. Maybe it was there for a separate lecture. I think I creeped him out. Remember, I was that guy you read to live on the air. This is what Joel said to McGee. I can imagine McGee standing there and Joe Walker be like, hey, remember when you read that stuff on the air? And he's like, he's like, Oh, yeah. And I wrote that song about you, too. I did get a sweet picture with Harold, though after you smoked out electoral nuts. I guess it wasn't when we were at. Yeah, I didn't see him anyway. I'm sure like McGee always just stands there and listens. He probably didn't like wasn't wasn't creeped out of Carroll doesn't get creeped out by that kind of stuff. No, no, there's

a strong, whatever it's called.

Alright, here are the questions. How is vinegar powder made? And if I were to make my own, what would be the best approach without the flavor becoming muted by ridiculous amounts of adsorbent? Is a tray of vinegar and a dehydrator the answer? Okay, so I'll hit that one. First. He's just two questions. No way vinegar powder is commercially made is through spray drying. So in spray drying, what you would do is you would mix so the problem with vinegar is vinegar is one of the very few you know acids that we eat that is volatile. That's why you can smell it so much. You know, when you put your head over a thing of vinegar, it smells like vinegar. Whereas you put your head over a thing aligned juice and your like, smells like lime juice, but it doesn't smell like acid, you know what I mean? And when you boil vinegar, you get that like aroma above it, you're like whoa, you know what I'm talking about, but you don't get it with something like lime or lemon or, or anything like that. It's because those acids, you know, boil at a high enough temperature that they're fundamentally non volatile, whereas acetic acid isn't. So anyway, so you spray dry acetic acid, vinegar by mixing it with a carrier usually maltodextrin and then spraying it into a chamber very, you know, very the the higher the better at a high temperature and as it goes down, the mist goes down and the Chamber dries out and turns into a powder. We remember we saw we went to David Michael the flavor house and we saw their spray dryer units. Pretty cool. Anyway. So that's how they make the powdered vinegar now powdered vinegar and you can go on, you know, modernist pantry or listening to or anywhere terrorist buys clues DNS if you're here in the city and buy a various different flavors of vinegar powder. The problem is that, like I say vinegar itself is non volatile. I mean, sorry, exact opposite vinegar is volatile. So the acetic acid is so you have to it's not very acidic, so you need to then dope the vinegar, the vinegar powder will have the flavor of whatever vinegar was there, malt vinegar or anything like that, but it's not actually very tart. So you'll need to augment it with another acid to really get the tartness of the vinegar back now. I think you could probably freeze dried vinegar as well. And I don't know whether the acidity is maintained through the freeze drying process because I don't know the I don't know how acetic acid works with sublimation and freeze drying as a sublimation procedure. The other thing and I looked up and people have done it is you can mix. You can make a sauce with vinegar in it and then dehydrate the entire sauce, right because then there's enough structure of other stuff in the sauce that you can dehydrate. And I saw on the internet that somebody did that with like their their favorite buffalo wing sauce, they poured the buffalo wing sauce in the dehydrator dehydrator for two days and then powdered it. I mean, I've never done it, but you could you could do that but don't use adsorbent remember, and absorb it is going to be an expensive carrier to use for this kind of thing and zorb it is a particular type of tapioca maltodextrin that is made specifically to have very, very, very low density and it's used as a bulking agent. And it also is used to make powdered oils and the reason it works is because the starch helix, right, the inside of the starch helix is relatively hydrophobic and so fat some oils can go inside of that helix without gumming up the outside of it. So it remains bulky and powdery. But the oil is somehow stored on the inside. As soon as you add water, it breaks down and turns to you know, it turns D bulks and turns like into into nothing, which is how the absorbent powdered oil trick works. So you can't you can't do it with absorb it or at least it's not a you know, you'd get a cheaper form of maltodextrin to use as a bulking agent if you're going to do the dehydration on it. But anyway, I hope that helps. Second question Joel had was it's always been the kitchen rule to let kambrose a stock's cool with the lid off the school of thought. And this is twofold it will cool faster because there's less insulation, and also the condensation builds up on the lid, if left on could promote bacterial growth. I hate cooling stocks with no lids because it increases the potential for items to be dropped in them during the cooling process. Not a question about cooling techniques. But I want to know if there's any danger in slapping a lid on hot stock and cooling it in an ice bath to room temp and then putting it in the walkin. Well, okay, I mean, look, is there any danger, so if if the product is way above the temperature, that of bacteria, right, and I don't think you're gonna have a problem with the lid, in terms of bacterial contamination, if you slapped it on it when it's really hot, and you know, the vapors coming up would be hot, it would hit it and everything would be okay. And, you know, presumably that's not the real problem, the real problem is, is that it takes forever and a day to cool to cool stock with a lid on because that a huge amount of heat is lost through evaporative cooling. So you know, if you were to put a lid on on top of stock, when it's cooling, it would super drastically increase the amount of time it takes to stock to get down to room temperature. Because you know, the the evaporative cooling is such a large percentage of how how the stuff gets away when you think about it, like radiation very low and conduction to the air very low in terms of ways to get rid of heat conduction, even to ice water through a Cambro is not super great because the Canberra is not so great at heat transfer, right? You know, a metal metal container in ice is good. But that as long as there's hot vapor coming off your you know, very drastically cooling and setting up a temperature gradient setting up convection, so long as the stock is a thin thing and really increasing the rate at which it cools. So I really think it's all about rate of cooling there. Now if you could guarantee a rate of cooling that's fast enough then a totally sealed system would be fine. I would guess Yeah. Oh, just as a note, it really is evaporative cooling. I poured Piper and I ran some tests today we did a quart container of product which is not same as camera was much smaller with a quart container of water with and without a lid drastically different cooling rates. And then also I poured like a teaspoon or a little bit of oil on top of another a third one and it's the same as putting a lid on a drastically damp the rate because you can't get evaporation off the off the top of their soil on top. I wonder whether that's why the guys in so you know in, you know in Tibet, they put like melted yak butter on top of tea. Yeah. I wonder so a lot of it is because of speaking to this guy. I think I mentioned this in a show previously is that I had like an actual Sherpa as a driver, like his last name was Sherpa and he was from Nepal. I think I talked about Yeah, but and he was saying that the interesting thing about the food there is that if it doesn't have a lot of fat in it, people are like what's wrong with you? I need the fat to survive. You know what I mean? Because they need to burn a lot of calories, I guess when they're at their high. But I wonder whether also you get a like wicked evaporative cooling up there because of the low pressures and I'm wondering whether or not the butter is an insulation effect as well to keep the tea hotter longer. Yeah, you're like me, I don't care. I'm

talking to your brother in law. So

you're talking to my brother in law. On right now while we're doing the reading. I got this in a note from John riper, friend of the show. Natasha. Another great show last week days quick riff on BLTs reminded me of an easy way to make them better. Hey, listen, John. Doe. Let me start in BLT. You can make one different. I don't know if you're gonna make it better.

That's a tough way to open it. Yeah.

I mean, look like you can make a different sandwich. It's like, here's what I have to say. Like, like, you know, you make a lot of bitters, like for cocktails. And it's like, I can make a difference. I can make a bitters that I like a lot, but I'm not going to make a better Angostura because how can you be better at being Angostura than Angostura is you don't I'm saying

wait to see what he's got. Yeah, okay, here we go.

Junk white bread is of course the way to go. Yeah. Back in the days when it helped to build strong bodies. 12 ways we take that's what he used to say about the junk white bread. We take a Wonder Bread I guess right? We take two pieces, slather on his Wonder Bread back yet by the way, Twinkies are bad it's back. Really,

we did a little news piece on it.

Thank god named because I told you because the deal is

so you like wonderbread then I accept it I like it

has no it has nothing to do with whether you like it or not. It's wonderbread it like it needs to exist. You know what I'm saying? Like when a French person comes to the United States, and you want to and you want to like show them like what it meant to be a kid growing up, you get Welch's grape jelly. Peanut butter of your choice. Mine would be probably Skippy Skippy because although my mom was quite choosy, she did not choose JIFF chunky, though it really I liked either, but it's interesting choice. You're only a chunky, chunky. See, here's my feeling like I like chunky. But I think if you want to go full American on someone you got to give them I think you got to start with the creamy and move into the chunk. I don't know. I don't know. And it has to be Welch's grape jelly. Yeah. Right. And so you get the wonderbread to Welch's grape jelly, and the peanut butter. And then you hand it to them. And what you have to say is and you've got to remember French people don't like concord grapes. And they don't like peanut butter. They're they're freaks about they don't like either one of those things. Anyway, good bread, right? And they love good bread. They hate Wonder Bread. And so So you hand them the this the sandwich, right? Which is like that's like how many of those Did you pound your grown up to many stars? How about you? Well, yeah, like and kids these days, that's not America anymore. Because a lot of the schools you can't bring peanut butter to anymore. But that was that's the sandwich and you hand it to them. And what you say to them is, hey, look, I don't expect you to like this. But if you don't, you can't wrap your mind around this sandwich then you can't wrap your mind around America period. And then you just walk away. You don't I mean, and then they eat it. They're like this is terrible. That's not French accent. It's not even French. This is a this is a horrible. There you go. That's a little better. Okay, so so back to back to back back to John. Okay, so back in the days when he helped build strong bodies 12 ways we take two pieces of bread wonder slather on some mayo and a couple of tomato slices add bacon and then instead of lettuce to see his instead of lettuce. We cook a sunny side up egg and the rendered bacon fat and slide it onto the bacon and tomatoes. When you want a sandwich that's greater than some other part of its parts. This is it now I agree that that might be a good sandwich. Maybe even a great sandwich. I don't know that it's going to be you know, I think I said a different sandwich shack. What

do you think that's that's much that's much more like a bacon egg and cheese variation.

Well, I like bacon a I like the words bacon egg and cheese are like some of the greatest words in the world. bacon egg and cheese so it's like a bacon egg and cheese with with tomato on wonderbread I wonder bread do you like speaking on Wonder Bread? Do you like a grilled cheese sandwich with a tomato on it?

Yeah, actually, that's that's always what I get. Now. I do yeah,

I like it two stars probably hates that. I get so much really because why? Because it's wet. still like it. But I mean, is it the wetness? Like I'm trying to analyze like the taste of a tomato and grilled cheese even like a dried tomato.

Right? Don't like it.

Tom Fisher writes in dear Dave, Natasha, Jackie Jo, sorry for not updating you last week on the eggnog you know, so we had a question a couple weeks ago about a traditional eggnog that's made and then let to sit for you know, several weeks we got to make that soon says

I know Yeah, Piper made that weird one.

I was terrible pipe. I love Piper who works with this you know, but he puts frickin Tiki bitters and everything he wants to Te fi everything. He made this eggnog he's like this is really good right and styles and are both like not It's garbage. It's garbage right? Yeah, this garbage what do you what do you remember what was in it?

No, and putting it on Petalite

is it's hard terrible. Oh, I look terrible. Oh my god so bad. Piper has come up with some really good ideas recently though. Like Piper did a I don't know if we talked about it. We did it at the event we did at the Center for discovery. Sour cream, simple syrup. Right which is like it's that's Piper's like genius invention of the recently Concord grape and vodka as gets good drinks. Good. We're gonna make that one for with absolute for Pernod Ricard, UK and a couple of days. That's good drink was good drink but the tiki eggnog not so much. Although interestingly, I did enlist Piper's help to answer this question. So let's let's get to it. As you recall, I made a large batch of aged aged eggnog but was concerned as it appeared to be very thin about the consistency of whole milk. The recipe calls for to be aged for a minimum of 21 days now on day 12, the egg naugus thicken slightly to the consistency of heavy cream. I'll check in again next week to let you know how it's going. But just for the sake of discussion, if it did not thicken on its own, what would I do? Thanks, Tom Fisher. Okay. So so I talked to Piper as you might know, Piper who works with us and who makes terrible Tiki flavored eggnog. I work for CP Kelco which is the Carageenan masters for a while and so, and right off the bat, you're gonna you know that that karagin is going to be the way to go to really fix a milk system up very well because Carageenan has synergistic effects with milk so you don't have to use very much of it. Now. There are are so I wouldn't use things like Xanthan. Even though Xanthan is really easy. It's going to snort it up real quick and eggnogs already got textural issues for me. And if you want something creamy and smooth, you don't want any of the you don't want any kind of snot rocket fuel to it right so there's no it's not rocket hate, it's not rocket. So, you're gonna want a karagin. And now there's three different fundament, well, there's more, but like the three Caribbeans, you're most likely to come in contact with or kappa carrageenan, Iota Carageenan and lambda Carageenan. And actually, in cooking, you're most often just going to come up with Kappa and Iota Kappa, makes hard, brittle gels you're not going to want that in this Iota makes softer gels, and is used in things like yogurts to get because they also read the gel resets. Now you're not looking to gel you're looking to thicken and the prime thickening karagin And the one that's used in chocolate milk, for instance, it lambda Carageenan or maybe small amounts of small, small small amounts of a tiny amount of a Yoda. Now Piper told me about the stuff that he used to use when he was working for CP Kelco. And he still maybe bought some I don't know some it's called genuine fisco they have such crappy names right? Who wants to put something called genuine disco into into the into their into their product anyway, genuine disco C S M to see like cold s like soluble M like milk so it's cold soluble and milk so it doesn't need to be heated. And the good news there is you can add it after you've made your product because it doesn't need to be heated. So Jenny, viscose CSM two and you're gonna want to use that in the ratio of between 0.1 and 0.25%. So anywhere between one gram per liter and 2.5 grams per liter. And the problem is, is that CP Coco is set up a thing with le Sanctuaire in California. So the Sanctuaire is a distributor of CP Kelco products. Piper checked and they don't have the genuine viscose CSM two on their website, maybe they can get it for you. The closest thing that they have is genuine Hisco j dash d s, which you use an even lower quantities, point 0.02. So two tenths of a gram per liter. And the problem with that, aside from the usage is it's mainly Iota and I think you might have I don't think it's called soluble in milk. So you can probably call CP Kelco and get them to send you some as a sample or pastoral Sanctuaire and maybe they'll get it for you but that's how I would go. Should we take our first break. We'll come right back after this commercial break with cooking issues.

Underground meats is an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. They use small farms from Southwest Wisconsin to source their meat. The animals are raised on pasture for their entire lives by farmers who care about animal welfare, while underground meats uses European traditions. They also use ingredients from the Upper Midwest to try to create new types of Salamis experimenting with both ingredients and techniques. The Salamis are made using heritage breeds mostly red wattles tam words Berkshire's and mule foots try their award winning cured pork shoulder and goat salami. To learn more in purchase products visit shopped up underground food collective.org or stopped by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin.

And we're back hello, questions. 27184972128. That's 718-497-2128 Speaking of underground meats had a question in from Brandon Hopkins saying hello hammer and the nails on the nails I guess. Yeah, you're the hammer. That means you're gonna hit me over the head. Like you don't

be a call quick with you want to grab that first? Oh, yeah. All right.

Caller you're on the air.

Hey, David, this Johnny Carson from Memphis, Tennessee. How you doing? All right, how you doing? Good. Great. I had a question about preserving linens and using Morton's Kosher salt with that. All right. And what I found was there's like a 3% sodium cyanide, if I'm pronouncing that correctly. And 97% Starting pour out of course. And when you the sodium ferrous CYOD hit is makes an acid it forms toxic gas.

Where like, as far as I know, Morton's Kosher salt is 100% Sodium chloride. Where's that? Where's that other thing? coming from.

It's taking me,

let me let me do a quick. It would definitely be much less than that amount. But let me let me just check up in the kosher salt add an anti caking

and Morton's kosher salt, they have anti caking agents.

I mean, look it up here for you real quick

I also have another question about

No, yeah, look that he asked me that question and I'm because normally like I would think that they would use. I mean, I've never heard of using sodium ferrocyanide as a as it lists that on the package,

I have to search through the Moreton Bay MSDS. And it would not. I found it after a long search, that it contains 3%, which I don't know, which makes it affects gluten tolerance? I don't know about that either.

No, I would have to be much like if they were to put something like that in, it would have to be much, much, much lower than that. But I'm going to look, I'm definitely going to look at in fact, the reason that I'm pausing as I say this as I am in the process of trying to look it up as we speak. But anyway, what's your what's your second question? Well, we're what we're what we're, what we're looking at.

I'm trying to package anaerobic bliss and cured meats. And, you know, they have to be sliced thin. And I've done it just in the vacuum machine, and they lose color after being sliced anything that could help them maintain color.

So you're doing a red dot, right? And you're doing a normal cure with with nitrites vacuum packing it and then slicing it.

It's it is cured. It is Brian, I'm sorry. And then it is smoke and internal about 140 by 150. And then then it's packaged after it cools.

Right. So I mean, color fade is a well known problem and cured meats. Because of light, and I years ago had done some research on how to ameliorate color fading of cured meats, I mean, obviously, the main thing to do is not to expose them to light, any nitrate cured meat is going to gray out on you, if you if you expose it to light. That's why you know, when you go to the store, and you see the old bacon, it's all gray, you know what I mean? Because you lose the color in light. But I'm going to have to It's been many, many years since I've read the papers on any attempts to make the pigmentation in cured meat light, fast. I mean, if you store it in darkness, it shouldn't fade on you at all. But I don't know of a way off the top my head to preserve the color if you're going to have it be exposed to light in a retail environment. Now I'm sure there is because I remember reading about years ago, this is the big problem that meat producers have. Right. And so I'm sure it's been solved. But I'm going to have to I'm going to have to put that one on the I'm gonna have to put that one on the on the on the side do some more research for you and and talk about it maybe next week when we come back because you will send an email to yourself for next week for done. Alright, so I'll do some research because it's something that I read about years ago, but I just don't have it on the tip of my head. Tip my head doesn't make any sense anyway. But like I'm interested, I was able to find that it is used as an antique kicking it but but the it's gonna have to be the back to the side. I think it's gonna have to be at a super low level. And I also see that it's added in.

What do you mean super low?

I mean, I'm gonna have to look up. I'm gonna have to look it up. Ie 535 sodium ferrocyanide. I don't know how much is in there. But

I'm 33%

it, maybe Maybe it's 3% of the anticaking agent, but it can't be three. Yeah, so then the question is what percentage of the salt is at Is anticaking agent? You see what I'm saying? So,

as I understood, it was it was 97 and three.

No, it can't possibly 3% of sodium ferrocyanide, which is pressing, like, I think it's basically the same as pressing gas would be would be death to us has to be

made mostly when it interacts with acid?

Yeah, it's gonna mean like, it's gonna have to be a much, much lower, much, much lower percent. But I'll look it up, I'll look it up and I'll tweet that one out and then also talk about it next week when I come back.

Okay, can I send you an email? Many things I find?

Yeah, sure. Yeah, the best way for me to see it is send an email to the regular radio email, or just tweet tweet me at at cooking issues and then I can I'm much faster because I see my tweets pretty much every day.

Okay. And email.

Which what do we use? Nastas. We use a lopez.mustache@gmail.com lopez.mustache@gmail.com. Yeah, shoot, shoot my way and I will definitely take a look at it because I'm interested to know how much cyanide they're allowed to put into our so. All right. Have a good day. Now you too. All right, back to Brandon Hawkins. He writes hammer and the nails. I was wondering if you have any suggestions for a really good salami maker. Thank you, Brandon from Phoenix, Arizona. Now the question is, What do you mean by good Fulani maker. Now? Do you mean like the people that make salami, like a producer salami, in which case I've never had that. You know, Jack, have you ever had anything from the underground meats collected? That's

very good.

Hey, thanks for sharing it, brother. Thanks.

We'll get some more. Yeah,

I've never tasted it. I'm sure it's good. I'd like to try it. I'd like to try their award winning goat salami. Would you like to try their work? Yeah, I would like that. But no, nothing for us anyway, all right. I mean, I like here in New York, I like to sell them area BLSA. Guys, I think they're really good. And I mean, I think they're excellent, in fact, and I love their products. And they're they were some of the like, early, they were really early in the wave of people in America trying to make actual high quality salumi. So a lot of people who, you know, in the past decade or so have started making salami, oh, a lot to them. Because a lot of people learned and a lot of people who like a lot of people who have taught other people have learned from them. And so you know, they're they're one of the you know, I think one of the people who deserve a lot of credit for what's going on in the US today. I mean, another early an early salami thing, although I haven't heard his products was Bertolli cooking by hand, which is a book we talked about before had a really interesting section on salami in it. I think that's a you know, that cookbook, I don't know if people read that. Do people still read that cookbook? Just mark like that book? I don't know. I don't know. I thought it was at the time is classic. I haven't read it in a while. The Chris Chris Cosentino our friend, book Aloni makes a good product out of San Francisco. Armando Batali. Mario's Dad, you've had his stuff, right. So really, he has a salumi place in what's it called, was a place called Seattle. And, you know, good products. I've had some of his stuff so a lot of good but if that's not what you mean, maybe you mean equipment to make salami which case for a curing box, I mean, the cheap way to go, you go to like our instruments or anyone get like a PID control for your and they have a humidity controller for your for your fridge. Or maybe you mean the sausage stuffer, sausage stuffer? I really don't think there's any need to spend like a boatload of money on a sausage stuffer. I've used the really expensive ones that are like hundreds and hundreds of dollars for the five pound press. And then I've used the, you know, $89 one from Northern tool or grizzly whoever happens to be selling them like to hunters, and the build quality is maybe a little better on the ones that are really expensive, but they stuffed sausage is just the same, you know? And so like I wouldn't, I wouldn't unless you're a pro, and you're doing it every day. I mean, it's a little bit harder to sanitize the crappy hunters ones because the welds aren't as good and so it's a little bit more difficult to sanitize but otherwise I would just stick with the $89 sausage stuffer. What do you think's does? Sounds good? Answer the question. Okay, so interesting thing from Michael Mackin and this fits in this is like this like three things kind of fit into this farm the toilet kind of movement that we're you know, dealing with the or if you have a composting toilet I guess toilet to farm to toilet right? That was what we're going to like Peter Kim for the museum of food and drink was joking that we're gonna do the farm to toilet show. We're not we're not going to do that. And then I was joking with Jack that we need to start the farm that farm before that movement. But anyway, I think it started the farm toilet movement. Yeah. When the Morning just you know, yeah, just now foreign to toilet. Okay. But Michael nakid writes in our good friend and the stock just bought like eight copies of his book I did. Like where you bought it bought it for all your friends

and family. Yeah.

He wrote in and he said, what you know, what do you what do you make of this? And it was this go on amazon.com and look up by Bernard Jensen. Tissue cleaning like tissue not like blow your nose tissue but like your bodily tissues. Stars hates the word tissue is as it pertains to bodily parts, right? Yeah, yeah. Tissue cleansing through bowel management. Yeah, that's stars is making the bowel phase tissue cleansing through bowel management. And you got to go. And you know, and Michael's basically, like, like, like, holy crap, take a look at this, you got to look at the cover the cover of this, of this book is it's like a yin yang thing, right? One house in color. And one house in black and white. And the center of the Yin Yang goes through the backside of like, what looks to be a 10 year old naked boys. But with like an image of the colon, like you might have inside like, like right there at the center of the Yin Yang thing. And on the left side, the black and white side, it's all industrial pollution. And like airplanes and power plants and factories. And on the right side, and color is like all apple trees and sunlight and Boyd's and all sorts of nice stuff, right. And so right off the bat, just like you look at this picture, and you're like, This guy is going to be a nut job. And so the awesome thing about it is you can look at a lot of it in the Amazon look inside thing. And so here's a choice, a choice tidbit. And I appreciate, you know, Michael bringing this to my attention, because this shows like, here's the thing, right? It's like, it's like any one of a number of like, like the Master Cleanse at it that we spoke about before that there's all these people who follow these cleansing regimens. And they're written by lunatics who have this idea that one single problem is, or one single issue is the reason and the solution to all of our problems. And it's part of this really, really pernicious magic bullet, thinking this this like this, this idea, which really, really honestly dates back, you know, hundreds of years, but in the US most prevalent sense, you know, Graham and and kind of like this. And then later the sanitarian and the sanitarium movement and the like the water care movement, and the prohibition movement, or temperance movement, all of these kinds of things stem from this, like font of evil, pernicious thinking that is modern humans have degenerated. Right. And we've we've lost kind of touch with ourselves and our bodies, right? And so we need to get back to that by purging and cleansing ourselves of all these toxins and problems, right. And today that manifests itself in juice cleanses, and other sort of BS, detoxifying crap, right, that you hear all about you. Back in the day, it manifests itself with eugenics and mass genocide, you know what I mean? It's like, it's all like the same problems that there's a degeneration and by the way, people are gonna say, I'm being hyperbolic. But it really comes from the same. And if you read if you go back and you read, where like a lot of these, like super crazy things come from, they sprang from an idea that human beings have degenerated and that there is this higher earlier self. And it's also unfortunately mixed in if you look at the history of it, mixed in with good Tengiz of misogyny, there's usually a good dose of anti semitism thrown in there. Like there's all sorts of because, you know, back in the 1800s, and early 1900s, prior to the prior to Nazis, when a lot of the like, classic encoded, but like well known literature on to generation was being written, there has to go and in fact, there's a guy Nora Tao is the classic author of the book degeneration, which is kind of like the cornerstone of, of semi modern, pseudo scientific thinking on the generation of human beings literally says things like, literally says things like impressionist painters this because that's the era he was writing in impressionist painters. The reason they paint the way they do is that their eyes have degenerated and they can't see the world like you and I can see it like really, like stupidity on that level. And remember, this is the same time people were going around measuring people's skulls to try and prove that the Northern European was a vastly superior based on the geometry of their skull, right and their brain can be like all of these sorts of things and you could tell what a criminal was like by the bumps on their on their phonology, but you know, all of these are part and parcel this idea that there was this This great old thing that we've degenerated to, and the like this current feeling of that right now that manifests itself in detoxing, right has its roots in this same sort of demented thinking right and as people just don't connect the dots of where their ideas come from, so here's a quote from it. He's not talking about you know, eugenics here although Kellogg who was one of these guys that you know, the cereal guy Kellogg was a believer in eugenics as where a lot of these early like a lot of these early people crazy anyway, here's the quote that I love. The bowel wise person is a blessing and source of inspiration to family and Associates. His cheerful disposition comes from having a vital toxin free body made possible by the efficient regular and cleansing action of a loved and well cared for bowel. Every person who desires the higher things in life must be aware of proper bowel management, what it is, how it works, and what is required. In so doing, you will discover many secrets of life. That's a great quote. Yeah, so if you just get your pooper in order, like you know, oh, that cancer problem you have gone anyway. Thanks, Michael for that little bit of craziness. I appreciate I encourage all of you go look at that crazy cover to that person as book on the subject of poop. Got two good poop stories. One knows Nora and got back from Bali recently and went to a Kopi Luwak farm. And I hadn't realized so Kopi Luwak is the coffee that comes up from Indonesia. And what they do is, is these civets, right, which are these? They're called Civic cats, but they're not cats. And as Piper reminded me this morning, they're weasels. They're weasels. They're weasel Piper, like Piper is a hater of many animal varieties hates beavers. They're on in quotes. The list right hates weasels of any variety anyway hates rodents, too. As we know we were threatened to put a woodchuck in a car with a member that anyways, do not threaten or do not even joke with Piper about putting a woodchuck or any form of rodents in a car that he happens to be in is no sense of humor about it. That guy anyways, so I didn't realize that copy. So what happens is the civets they eat the, they eat the ripest choices coffee cherries, right? And then the bean, they digest the outer haul, and they poop out the bean. And then you harvest the pooped out beans, and one they only eat the right ones, which is good because that means you know you're only getting the right best berries and to their digestive system is supposed to do something cool to the to the coffee. And there's been studies on it to show that in fact, it is altered in certain ways by going through the digestive system and who's so they have farms now and in barley. And the one I think that knows went to is a barley. Polina and Niels brought back some Kopi Luwak for us to roast because it's a green coffee not roasted, which is amazing, but he brought me back the special one that they don't sell. They had one lying around. This one stars who you saw it right? No, I haven't seen it yet. I have a picture. I'll tweet it out. It's still in log form. Now, I don't know about anyone else listening to this program, but my hat's off to the civet for being able to like, create a full on log after eating all of that coffee. These little suckers are eating just coffee, straight coffee, and like pooping out what looks like like popcorn ball logs of like coffee beans cemented together with very little else. And you know that if you and I already eat that much coffee, like we would be set on spray, like indefinitely, there wouldn't be any any log action. So anyway, I'll tweet the picture that out. And then I have to figure out I don't have that much of it. And so I have to figure out what the best washing and roasting thing is, but we'll run through it. Maybe we'll put some some stuff out, but I'd never seen it in log form. So that's the second poop story. And for the third poop story in our farm to toilet edition of cooking issues. Yesterday, Natasha and Piper at the lab, were making lunch and I wasn't really paying much attention to what they were making from lunch. And as they're eating as they're halfway through their lunch, I walked over and I noticed that they both have giant plates of of greens, and freegan Jerusalem artichokes sunchokes and like holy crap, are you guys for real? And they're like What? What? I was like you really never read The Curious Cook have you? They're like, Well yeah, parts I was like, if you haven't read the Curious Cook had you and they're like, No, even though literally, we have a copy of it in the office waiting for Harold McGee to come back and sign because we're going to we're going to auction that off at the at one of the museum things right.