Hello, everybody, and welcome to a brand new series on heritage radio network called the culinary call sheet where we give a peek into the back kitchen of culinary media. I'm your host, April Jones,

and I'm your co host, Darren bresnitz. Part of why we started the show was to offer an unofficial mentorship for anyone who's interested in learning about all aspects of food and video, whether that's TV, social media online, or just something you want to do for fun.

Absolutely what was once niche or a little silly, as I'm sure you remember, Darren, when we started out, this man has now become such a massive playing field for so many creatives using food as the medium.

It's something that has driven us professionally and personally, for so many years. What excites me the most about this show is that we're going to sit down with some of the industry leaders to hear how they made it and what drew them into this industry.

With 20 years in the culinary production game ourselves. We're hoping we can give through these conversations an insider's view into personal stories from the field, as well as an in depth behind the scenes look into some of the most popular food programming. In today's evolving culinary media landscape.

We'll be covering everything from how to style your food, to how to license IP, to developing your own ideas, and some tips from the masters of how to host your own show.

Yeah, it's a little bit of conversation, how to and how do you do the things that you do in color media, which I'm so excited about? I love so many of the guests that are coming on this season. We have talent from Food Network from Vice media eater refinery 29,

we've met some of the best people in the world both in front of and behind the camera. And we're bringing them all together to share their stories, their delicious adventure and their unique journey into this crazy world.

So to be the first to hear our episodes when they launched this fall, go to wherever podcasts are streaming and hit subscribe and make sure to give us a follow at the Culinary call sheet on Instagram.

Today's program has been brought to you by underground meats an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. For more information visit shop dot underground food collective.org Or stop by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin. You are listening to heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit heritage radio network.org for 1000s more.

Hello, and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live from Roberta's pizzeria in the back of no well we're in the back of Roberta's we're in Bushwick kind of the back of Bushwick too, though, right? Pretty much like the butt and

back of Williamsburg in the front of Bushwick.

Oh, really, you think that this is the front end of Bushwick? I think people who actually live in Bushwick might disagree. I don't know I live here. You live in industrial Bushwick or you live in Bushwick Bushwick I live in Bushwick Bushwick like by the park. Yeah. But I mean, this is like East industrial Williamsburg Park

stuff. Yeah, well, Bushwick sounds a little more catchy than that. Right? Bushwick joined as usual with Natasha hammer Lopez. Hey, dudes does good. Yeah. Jack and Joe in the engineering booth. Hey, guys, how's the wine? It's good. You want to tell us what? What you've gave given us a drink here? Wish I could? Wow. Yeah. Well, it's some form of oxidized wine that Natasha by the way, here's something for all you people that she actually enjoys. She likes various varieties of oxidized wine products. Hey, look at that. I didn't even know like, are you big Sherry fan?

Not really. I think it has something to do with the color. I like the orange color. I like the weird taste.

That sounds like you. Alright, so listen, this is a actually a real coincidence. I don't want people to think that. I'm shilling out for sponsors here because I had no idea underground meats was this is the first time they've sponsored us.

First or Second, I think maybe once or twice before, but he was here recently. Cool, dude. Nice.

Well, anyway, turns out the guys from underground meats in med town, as I guess they'd like to call it to cheese head cheese head folks. If you ever met you're ever hung out with people from Madison, Wisconsin.

I mean, just Johnny hunter from underground meats. But

like, here's the thing about Madison, Wisconsin. I think I went once when I was a little kid because I used to go to Oshkosh for the flying you know that with the EAA flying. But people from Madison freegan love it. Like everyone that went to school up there everyone they just they freakin love it. You ever meet someone from Madison is like, yeah, man, Madison. Everybody I know for Madison is obsessed with a card game called sheep's head. Like Sheepshead Bay, but not but not Sheepshead Bay. It's a card game and whenever Madison people get together they play sheep's head. What's it based on? Is it a trick based game? No, I can't even really describe it because I always lose. Because I don't know how to play this. I'm not for Madison. Does it involve cheese or beer? Well, I'm sure yeah. But anyway. So back to what we were talking about. Turns out the underground meats, by the way, which is part of a larger thing of a jig called the underground food collective that's going on. They're in, in Madison, right? They have a Kickstarter, and I read about, it's actually quite an interesting Kickstarter. So just talking about here, first, you want to search on going to go to kickstarter.com, or anywhere, I guess, Google and search for underground, underground meats, and then Kickstarter, and you'll, you'll get it right away. And it's very interesting. Here's the thing, they have a, they have a right to sell their cured meats and charcuterie on a state level, right? They have Wisconsin state approval, but they want to get USDA approval so that they can sell across state lines, so they get approved to sell across state lines. In order to do that, you need to have what's called a validated hassad plants now for you guys who don't know what it has a plan is has IP stands for hazard analysis, critical control points. And it's the fundamental core oh, by the way, calling your question 274 and 72128, that's 74 9721 to eight back to hazards, so has it is it's the core of food safety in the United States, and actually other countries as well. And it was originally designed for the space program leases is my interpretation of it, you know, the space program, they, when they were doing that, they realized that, you know, if an astronaut got food poisoned in space, it could be it could have some serious, serious, serious consequences. So you know, you don't want the astronauts to get the runs in space, because you're gonna hold that stuff and just kill that's not really what they wanted to be sick in space. So they wanted to have a zero tolerance policy on foodborne illness in in space. And so they applied a lot of the same verification and checking techniques to the food that was going into the space program, as was going into the individual components, the switches, the wires, you know, the materials that were in the spacecraft themselves. So large companies figured out a way to, in essence, as best you can guarantee food safety. And so big, big companies were involved in this program once like Pillsbury, it just became the over overarching way that we do food safety in the US. And what it stands for is hazard analysis, you first have to analyze the hazards and a hazard can be anything from maybe some person was picking fruit in a field somewhere, and their ring fell off, and their ring fell off into this has happened to me, not when I was picking fruit, but when I was washing dishes when we ring falls off, and then it ends up in the basket of fruit and thing and then it ends up in your equipment and then somehow ends up in your food. And then you chew on the ring. And you know, lo and behold, you crack your tooth. Well, that's a hazard. Right? So you've analyzed that hazard. And those hazards can be anything from things like actual foreign object damage, stuff like that foreign objects to adult like deliberate adulteration by things like terrorists, which is why a lot of that has also got a big boost in terms of traceability after 911, to destroying pathogens to ensuring the Coltrane, all of these things are analyzing where there can be possible hazards within the food chain all the way from the where the wrong greeting was produced until the consumer puts it in their mouth. Right. Okay. Now the that's only the first part, you have to analyze the hazard hazard analysis now you have what's called a critical control point, you say, Okay, I know there's a hazard, you know, person might drop their ring into the basket of fruit that they're picking. Now you have to have a control point well, so how am I going to control to make sure that the ring doesn't make it into the apple pie? Well, let's say I put a metal detector at the front of the factory when the apples come in all the apples go through a metal detector. And if there's any metal, we make sure we take it out. That's a control point. Now, I guess they wanted a catchy thing. So they call it hassle because there's actually a third and very important part to has IP and that's verification you have to have logbooks you have to build to verify that you've checked and verify that your control points are adequately monitoring your products to ensure that they're safe Hazard Analysis Critical Control Point and verification, right has it now you know, it's these are things that are done, for instance, modified hasit plan simple hazard plans are put in place all the time and restaurants for instance, here in New York, for cvwd cooking, but also it's used in a much more kind of screwed down tighten down button down way industry by everyone who's a commercial food producer. Now, the issue if you're going to get a USDA approval to do something like charcuteries you need what's called a validated hassle plan right? And what a validated hasit plan is not only that you shown in theory that you have analyzed all the hazards and that you have chosen the correct Critical Control Points and that you are verifying properly. You have to then prove it with an outside third party source in that case us money. Now I'm going to show you something there's a there's an article Jonathan hunter from, from the underground food collective did an interview on food safety news.com. About this Kickstarter they're doing so what these guys are trying to do is they're trying to raise 40 grand, right? They raise the 40 Grand, they can hire the outside sources to do the microbiology and do all the things to prove that the techniques that they're writing down for curing meats, do in fact, kill pathogens, right, they're going to, presumably, they're going to measure the salt content, the pH, I don't know if they're going to measure water activity, what but they're going to they're going to verify that the techniques and tools that they use to verify safety for the salumi products that they're making. They're gonna verify that those things are in fact safe. And then they have to pay someone to verify that for them. So here's a comment by by someone named JT on the internet on an article on food safety. And I'm mentioning this because it's a classic people who make comments on the internet presumably in their pajamas late at night while they're while they're sipping on on their on their last glass of wine before they hit the bed or while they're watching Jerry Springer, they think that they can make a comment that is useful. So here's what JT said and I'm only saying this because I want people to know kind of where this kind of comic goes wrong. So you don't think the same way because the what these guys are doing they're asking for 40 grand they're gonna have their own a validated hassle plan but then I forgot to mention this I said this right at the outset what they're going to do is take this hassle plan and then publish it so that anyone who uses the same procedures and same equipment can then use that same hassle plan without having to shell out 40 grand they're trying to make an open source kind of validated hassle plan. That's the concept. Okay, look, so JT writes in incorrectly, if you understand this is about like, why? I'll paraphrase JT, what do you need? What do you need 40 grand for a hassle plan to hire someone else to do it has to plan for that's how I imagined JT talks because he says if you understand your processes and how to make them safe and clean, then you should really be able to develop your own asset plan based on the numerous guides and templates that already exists. You already like a lack of understanding Yeah, you can have a template for a theoretical asset plan but you need a verified has to plan for specific procedures, especially something like salumi where you're dealing with multifactorial burial barriers to killing bacteria and pathogens like water activity salt content pH all intertwined and time whatever anyway, so you should really be able to develop your own hassle plan based on the numerous guides and templates that already exist if you need to hire a third party to develop your hazard plan forget that you need to because you need to prove it not only do you need to provide the actual scientific you can go anyone who cares to can go on the FSI s which is whatever it is Food Safety Inspection Services whatever website and read what's required to get a validated hassle plan because right there on the thing and I know it's the URL is too long to read, but they they have it there it first you have to get your own scientific, bolstering facts right from actual scientific literature, literature, and if that doesn't exist, which thankfully it does in this case, but if that doesn't exist, you have to provide it and then you have to do that and in practice prove that your tech specific techniques work anyway so if you need to hire a third party to develop your hazard plan, then you probably should not be in the business you're in because that means you are highly ignorant about how to safely produce your products or JT you are highly ignorant about regulation. So please go check out their Kickstarter and remember if you enjoy the ability for small producers who cannot afford to have a validated hassle plan if you would enjoy to have more of those people around in our country making delicious products or at least making products that they believe in if you support people doing what they believe in then you should go take a look at his Kickstarter waving was he talking about that on the on the on the program got

oh yeah we did we did a short piece with him that I think will debut soon on the whole issue breaking down has it been everything

that mean? Well I hope what I just said put a jives with what he said me because that kind of just hit it off top my head but remember, you only got 22 days to donate to that Kickstarter and they send you salami if you do. Anyways. Okay. Got some questions in. Now, Steven Steven Benziger wrote in earlier and he says that hey, I asked you call last week about transglutaminase and hydrocolloid polymerization resources to post but I can't remember for the life of me what I said I was gonna post can anyone remember what the heck I said I was gonna post someone like Stephen tweet into me and tell me exactly what I said I was gonna post and I'll make sure that I do it because you gotta remember like my mind, right? He totally like goes blank Fritz's and runs the show. I don't think there's any culture wasn't from two weeks ago,

many weeks ago if this because this email was lost, so it was many weeks ago. Oh, no calls asked

me know who's Dino. All right. So Steve was also curious about some foods that he can circulate and refrigerate for long periods of time. Being a medical student. He says I like to cook on week hope to cook on weekends and reheat them before they're at school. Thanks. Okay, well, there are a lot of products that you can fact like one of the main benefits of now it was good sushi in particular of sushi cooking is you can Pre circulate a lot of your stuff, and then just return it. You remember, you can't send another one of the bizarre things you can't say reheat because reheat is a technical term that you can say at home doesn't matter. But like in like in professionally, if you say reheat, you have to reheat it to a pathogen killing temperature. Whereas, if you've pasteurized your product and kept it, you know, properly cold during the thing, then you only have to reach thermal ice, which means you can heat up to any temperature you want. Okay, so most things are possible to do this way, the only thing that you can't really do are things that you can't pasteurize. If you're going to, if you're going to heat something in a bag, right. And in this in when you're doing this, you're going to keep something for a long time, it's advisable to actually vacuum bag it because when you do things like zip ease, or some, some oxygen on the inside, and if you're doing foods that have or that are prone to oxidation, like meats, especially meats tend to oxidize on reheating. It's called warmed over flavor. If you have a problem, thinking of products like that, it behooves you to get rid of the oxygen in there so that you don't have those sorts of issues on rethemed, that you don't have kind of oxidized off flavors, not dangers, just off flavors. So you probably want to invest in a vacuum bag in a situation like that. And you want to make sure if you're going to keep stuff for a long time, that you pasteurize the products that you put in, right, because if you don't pasteurize and if you're just heating them to a point where, you know, maybe you like the way they taste, but you've left bacteria, you can be put in a situation where you actually have incubated a certain portion of the bacteria and cause it to be less safe as possible. I mean, not likely, but possible. So you want to choose things that you can patch, right? What does that mean, don't do fish, most fish can't be adequately pasteurized in a vacuum bag, because you're going to have to cook it for too high, or for too long to get a good pasteurization such that you can safely cool it and then return it again later, almost anything if you pasteurize it properly, can be kept in your fridge for a week, and then eaten later with no ill effects. Now, if commercially, there is data that some people have gotten things to grow in vacuum bags, you know, at temperatures between 38 Fahrenheit and 40 Fahrenheit in that range. And so we actually have to keep you know, if you're going to store stuff for a week, commercially, at least in New York, I don't know federally yet, because it's been a while since I've read this stuff, you actually have to keep your products below 40 degrees. It's been a while but I think the number is somewhere like 38, or, or maybe even 34, I gotta look it up. If you want to keep it for a full week, otherwise, you know, you have a shorter window to keep it however, in the reality if you do adequate pasteurization and you cool the stuff down rapidly enough, you know, you're not going to get you're not going to get in most real world situations, any sort of bacterial growth on the inside of that bag. Within that one week, you know, within the within the Monday to Friday window. If you're cooking on a Saturday or Sunday and you're going to eat it before a Monday or a Friday. Just make sure that you adequately pasteurize everything that's all good job. She said they just thought I was just like so that I'll be quiet and move on. So they noticed I know you said well, she's like, You should be quiet about the about the safety stuff says like says doesn't care stars. Oh, you care about safety somewhat? I do. I do. Yeah. Now my safety. No, no, no. All right. And with that, why don't we take our first commercial break, come back with cooking issues.

Underground meats is an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. They use small farms from Southwest Wisconsin to source their meat. The animals are raised on pasture for their entire lives by farmers who care about animal welfare, while underground meats uses European traditions. They also use ingredients from the Upper Midwest to try to create new types of Salamis experimenting with both ingredients and techniques. The Salamis are made using heritage breeds mostly red wattles tam words Berkshire's and mule foots try their award winning cured pork shoulder and goat salami. To learn more and purchase products visit shop dot underground food collective.org Or stop by their butcher shop in Madison Wisconsin.

And welcome back.

Let's obsess Oh I thought they're gonna do another commercial

nope not it's just us nice right okay. Although we don't we don't mind the commercials we like we like commercials. Right? Okay. Lucas writes in who we met. Pretty sure it's the same Lucas that we met at the at the at when I first met him at the Kickstarter launch party and then at the at the puffing gun party that we had, which was a good party. Yeah, good party. Good, good party. Okay. I believe I believe this is St. Lucas, although I'm not sure Hi, Dave, Anastasia, Jack and Joe. I went to El Calarco and Roca, which by the way, you know, his name was it last year a couple years ago, like the best restaurant in the world. Like, you know, it's the it's the Roca family. I have never, I've never Who Wait, who said that's when I was Pellegrini? You know, I hate. First of all, like we say this again, I'll say this again. Although, you know, if you've met me, you've heard me say this many times. The idea of the best restaurants the most ridiculous thing in the world. I mean, they're actually that's not true. There are more ridiculous things. Like, you know, I don't know, like the Syrian government didn't do that chemical attack. That's more ridiculous. But like, like bad, like, like, like, Best Restaurant is just a silly concept. Because what does that mean? Do you want to go out to, you know, a three Michelin star meal every night? No, no, hell no. Right. So like, it's like the best restaurant on any particular night. I mean, I don't know. It's like, but that said, it's one of the restaurants in the world. One of the you know, I would say top three restaurants in the world that I want to go to that I haven't been to. Okay. Hey, guys, Piper's on the line. Oh, Piper. All right. Well, let me make them hold. Boom, boom. Oh, yeah. All right. Now we'll take Piper now we'll come back down Clark and Rogan is going to be the Hey, Piper. Hey, Dad, how you doing? Pretty good. So we had a question a couple of weeks ago, and I promised that I would get you on the line to talk about it. And it has to do with puddings. And I know that you're putting head and so you you know by the way, Piper worked with us at poker index Equipment Corporation, and worked for a while doing research Food Research technical stuff for CP Kelco the manufacturers of such fine products as gelatin and a lot of the high grade pectins that you buy and they also make what else they make the clear locust bean. What do they make clear locust bean gum

carrageenan. xanthan gum, Neff, and they have locust bean gum. Yeah.

What do they need to clear locust bean gum so they can make their fake gelatin stuff with Carageenan because everyone if you want to do a vegetarian, fake gelatin, like one of the classic ones is a mixture of catholiccare carried well mostly catholiccare Jean and locust bean gum to kind of soften to soften the texture a little bit so it's not so brittle. But if you want to replace gelatin, it has to be fairly clear. So regular Lucas being gone, which is cloudy doesn't make a good gelatin. replacer. So see, because who has to make this expensive clear locust bean gum that would you say it's accurate?

Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

So Anywho. So I forget who it was. But gentleman called in a couple of weeks ago and said he was having problems with the texture of his puddings. And he was doing kind of classic cornstarch based puddings. And I knew that you would be making the Piper version of the moustache of vegan face for not using some sort of better putting technology. So what and I said, I would find out what Piper's favorite putting technology is. So go,

Well, I mean, it really depends on what he has at hand to like, just add cornstarch, you know? What I like to do is an iota heavy, I have a cathode karagin and blend Iota Kappa and Loki is being planned. So like, depending on firmness, like point three Iota point one Kappa and when five Lucasian gum just for some research.

So you say point what on the iota. I like to do about point three right. Now do it now. Have you ever had any experience with the readily available Carageenan blends because some extended people don't really understand in general is that hydrocolloid, like Caribbeans are Caribbeans are gotten from seaweeds and all the Caribbeans are from the similar varieties of seaweeds, but there's no such thing as pure kappa or pure iota or pure lambda karagin and Carageenan is because of the result of kind of, you know, finding a purifying and natural seaweed product are all kind of shotgun mixtures and each manufacturer standardizes a particular Carageenan blend for a particular application. So one iota is not the same as another Iota one kappa is not the same as another kappa right, they might have a different blend of karagin and they might have hydrocarbons come in differing polymerization lengths, how long the how long the actual polysaccharides are that are in them and so, they have different ranges, but have you found that like the various iotas that are available for people to purchase are roughly similar in their action here or do you have a particular brand that you like to use that is available to humans?

The texture is is is pretty, pretty close to the the most pure blends that I can compete to Calico.

Okay, so you use their Iota in their Kappa and you say well Find their Iota in their cap. All right. And Taro works good to Terra spices Iota and kappa work fine. Okay, so give those give those percentages one more time.

Well, this is for like a current relay. Right? Texture it's point 3% Iota point 1% Tapper and then point oh, five, Lucasian gum.

Okay, now, folks, just so you know, locust bean gum has to be heated above what about? Well, all of those things have to be heated above like 75 C or something like that, right?

Yeah. Yeah, I don't mind taking until like 80. Yeah,

but then so so if you're going to add something that would otherwise not work well at those temperatures, proteins, eggs, stuff like that. You would pre hydrate that stuff and then temperate back in right, because locust bean gum was never going to set and they karagin ins aren't going to set until it gets down into the probably like the 130s Fahrenheit 120s Fahrenheit, right.

Yeah. And then I mean, if you've got corn starch, you can also you can put that in and that could that would sort of stop in the the gel up a little bit, it would interrupt the

structure. Well, that's also what you know, Wiley's cornstarch is his egg yolks to stop them from setting in his in his hollandaise sauce, but the blu ray does really well, it probably uses something more sophisticated. But that will also stop. That'll also buffer the proteins a bit if you add them to the proteins first, right.

Yeah, I mean, it'll Yeah, it'll do a couple of things. I mean, it'll it'll also stop up from your sentries it's not amazingly well, but what I'd like to do is do about 10% Or maybe like 12% Sugar drive land on my pleasure college and that dispersed in 5050, cream and milk and then eat that too to you know, roughly 85 and then put in the blender and add about what like two egg yolks per 250 milliliters of liquid and then I add that at about right as it's cooling down. It helps it helps speed things up and then I just poured into a setting

right so now to translate some of the things that Piper just said he dry blends the hydrocolloid with sugar. Why? Because the main problem with using hydrocarbons two things you need to do with hydrocarbon hydrocolloid swell and clumps, so if you want them to work, you have to prevent that. So dry blending in with sugar helps to physically separate the particles of the hydrocolloid so that they can be dispersed right? After he disperses them. He hydrates them by heating, right and then hydrates them in the closest thing to pure water he has in this case, which is milk and wherever else he's going to do and then afterwards as it's cooling in the blender under high shear adds things like egg yolks and then allows the product to set. Now if you break down what he's using for the actual hydrocolloid base here, he's using IoT Carageenan I O to carry and by the way, Carageenan. One of the main things about karagin. And that's awesome is it has a synergistic effect with milk meaning it takes a very, very small amount of karagin and to set milk. And the advantage of of that is that the smaller amount of a hydrocolloid you use to create a gel, the less masking you have a flavor. Well, it's cheaper also. But you know if for most people at home, that's not really a concern, because the amount you're using are so small, but also there's a lot less flavor masking if you're using much smaller amounts of hydrocolloids. So Iota carrageenan, is a kind of rubbery, if you use a lot of it kind of rubbery, and kind of bouncy textured stuff, but kind of, you know, blowing, blowing, blowing, blowing kind of texture. It has an interesting properties. Unlike most other hydrocolloids it will reform a gel after it has been sheared. Which is interesting, right? But it's the soft one cap up is brittle, more like Aguilar, it snaps when you break it in half. So he's doing a mix between Iota and kappa to get the kind of texture he wants. And then he's adding locust bean gum, the locust bean gum is going to do two things, it's going to soften the Kappa a bit, right? And it's also going to stabilize any of the water that's not locked into the Carageenan gel matrix and prevent that water from weeping out. That's what he's saying. syneresis so when you have locust bean gum, that you're adding locust bean gum is preventing the weeping or the sinner Rhesus that you often get in gel systems or even in regular putting systems if you consider them a gel system. And in fact, that is why you have in most ice creams to stabilizers, it's not that they want to jack everything up, but they have one that's doing a mild gelling, right to prevent crystallization or something like Carageenan and then you have something to prevent what's called way off or center Rhesus, even at low temperature of liquids out of the matrix of the ice cream, and that is something like a locust bean gum or guar. Yes or No? Yeah. All right.

And also insist that people use non vigorous percentages because it would it would throw off the recipe.

You say it said again

they shouldn't is a bigger percentage is it some it's like absolute percentages

you talking about when you say well so Piper when Piper because he worked for CPE cocoa writes a recipe and he says a percent he means that there is there is one gram of hydrocolloid in 99 grams of water and that's 1% Yeah, but you're talking less than a percent and everything it's going to be minimal.

I mean, it's going to be minimal plus you got 10 to 12%. Sugar. You know, it, it makes it makes a difference

with the sugar. It does not with the hydrocolloid, though,

but the sugar is, as a percentage of the whole your whole your liquid portion is smaller. I don't know I'm sorry.

Well, okay. So what you're saying is, what you're saying is they should figure out what their total weight of their batches and then do your hydrocolloids based on that? Yeah. Because you haven't calculated a liquid a liquid basis only. Yeah. Now we should calculate a liquid basis because no one does that, you know? No, one. I mean, whenever I write a hydrocolloid recipe, I always try to write the numbers based on percent of water and then try to ignore the sugar stuff. But it's a really it's a complicated thing. It's a problem. The fact of the matter is, if you find a recipe that you like, that works, as long as you are consistent in applying that recipe, you're going to be okay, Piper's method, which is the actual method you use in the in the actual in in business and industry commercially, is better because if you think about the hydrocolloid to liquid base as being or the hydrocolloid to total base, and how the sugar interacts with it, it's going to make it easier for you to make a second and third recipe that don't contain sugar. Right. That's the that's that's what you're saying. But it makes it more difficult for someone at home to to figure out or like the recipe in general, would you say that's accurate? Piper No,

that's true. It also makes it easier for scaling. While you're testing your technique,

yeah, right. Yeah. I mean, that's there must be a reason why everyone does it in the real world, but chefs just don't like it. They don't do it. You know, anyway. Yeah. All right. Pipes. Thanks for calling in. I see it a little bit. Yep. All right. So back to Lucas's problem. I went to El color can Roca a couple of months ago and really enjoyed it. The problem is that this place is in Spain and not exactly a budget meal. That's true. I hear it's quite expensive anyway. One of the most impressive things I had there was an oyster with a venison mayo. It wasn't a tense an oyster with venison mail. It was an intense experience I'm trying to reproduce it but I have no idea how to infuse so much flavor into the mail. I can make a quite a strong stock with a pressure cooker using multiple abstraction typically once you make mail you do not add much of any additional liquid what happens is either I end up with not a very flavorful product or I break the mayo Do you think they somehow infuse the oil directly or do they make some Ultra flavorful stock? I'm trying with duck rather than venison is I don't have venison but I guess this is not an issue regards Lucas. Okay. Okay, there are there's, there's, I have some guesses as how you do it, there's there's a couple of ways you can do this one you could the simplest way. The kind of the most bonehead simple way is to make a fluid gel like a gel and base fluid gel out of the stock I know a stock already has gelatin in it but you make a fluid gel right and then you can mix the fluid gel into the mayonnaise without breaking the mayonnaise because you're not actually adding a liquid to it you're adding a second solid that has the same consistency as the mayonnaise itself. So it shouldn't dork with the emulsion too much right so you're gonna have a man is and then you're gonna fold into the man is something with the exact same texture as the man is but just a fluid Joe. Okay, now that's one now the more high tech way to do it. Okay and if you were going to do the fluid gelatin into a man as I'd say with Jalen C, you can do an ag or fluid Joe actually agri fluids that will be easier to achieve in terms of stuff you could go out and buy at a store. If you're gonna do an ag or fluid gel, it would probably be on the order of 0.9% AG or Oh, Aguilar and gelatin can cause problems sometimes. To look at it, Joanne should work. But the the real baller way to do it would be to take your venison stock, right? And then get an enzyme and stars we got to find a source of this enzyme. This is my one of my favorite enzymes of all time to use. It's called correlates. So correlation is an enzyme that breaks down gelatin. Now the problem with like using let's say a meat tenderizer like Popeye eating or one of these other things that you can buy meat tenderizer meat tenderizer enzymes break down protein beans but they can often break down the proteins into bitter poly peptides. Okay. And also I've tested it, they're not as effective as you would like and totally breaking all the gelatin down. You know as you want for the application we're about to tell you this enzyme correlates which breaks down gelatin is specifically designed specifically chosen, because when it breaks down gelatin, it does it in a way that does not create any off flavors at all. It creates only completely soluble, non viscous and tasteless poly peptides, right? So and this stuff is a miracle you can take colds, while cold mean if it's cold, it takes longer for it to work. But you could take jellied stock drip a couple of drops in of correlates into it, and it completely melts the stock down nothing, so has no more body in it, right? Once you destroy the gelatin, you can take that stock, you could take a two liters of stock and reduce it down to 100 milliliters. And then and it still will not set it becomes you have to worry about not scorching because as an incredibly high solids level, just from the from the from the the solids in it, but not gelatin. And so it allows you to get ridiculous reductions on that stuff. And then you can incorporate that as a liquid base into Manet's without having interfering effects from setting gelatin or any of these other problems or having to add too much it's going to break it and that's the way you know when I when I had when I back when I had correlates when I had some of it. That's the way we would do like super strong beef flavored drinks we would make we would break the or like very very concentrated very concentrated cold concentrates that were liquid by breaking the gelatin and then hyper reducing it and then that you know, you could then probably get a lot of flavor into a mayonnaise without having to resort to something like a fluid Joe but if you want to go out and do it tonight, I would go out and make a Joanne fluid gel with your venison stock. You know first reduce it make a gel and fluid gel, blend it and then and then fold it in that should that should work waiting. Good job. We get again she's like I don't care just if he asked me just tell him to stop talking. Yeah,

we've had a lot of people kind of tweeting in rightness about 3d printers and asking us to cover that what do you know about 3d printers

and food? US meaning us or us? Me and the greater us the greater us station?

Well, that's an interesting question. So the 3d printing of food is something you know, we were, you know, a number of years ago, we were dealing with Cornell with the fab at home, which is basically extrusion. extruder, right. Rachael Ray, they were on the Rachael Ray program and we had to run over some syringes because there's some interest didn't come through, we still had some syringes leftover, so we brought them over, but and Piper and Natasha wanted to get into the studio audience. We want to know when did anyone that day when a cruise we never saw the show? She didn't even look to see whether or not you didn't win a cruise. So you're upset about a cruise that you may or may not have won? Yeah. What you don't want to know,

I don't want to know, no, you don't want to you don't want to know what I would have thought harder

you take that you're like, Okay, here's the question before we get into printing. So like the question, if you could take a genetic test to know whether or not you're more likely to get a specific disease or not. Right? Would you take it? Answer Yes. Because then you can prevent or do something. So you want to know, like your possible future genetically. But you don't want to know whether or not the cruise was an actual issue. I

would have fought harder. Like I paid for this genetic testing. I paid you know, like I'm doing everything I can I didn't do everything I could for the Rachael Ray show possible cruise. So I don't want to know if I go to one

because you don't want to know that like possible personal weakness caused you to not get Chris right. Fair. Thank you fair. So, back to 3d printing. So we were getting this 3d printer to work with. And you know, the goal, people have this thing in their heads. And there was a New York Times article on it very recently on printing 3d food. And the goal out there is that somehow, you know, you're going to print your table and then you're going to print your your plate, and then you're going to print your food, and then you're just going to sit down, and someone's gonna email you this awesome recipe, and it's gonna print out like along with everything. And I've never been a fan of this idea ever. I've always thought it was kind of you know, not that not what I think cooking is about and not what I think food is about. I think the idea of 3d printing. Architectural units is very interesting because it allows you to do things you couldn't otherwise do. The idea of 3d and we use 3d printers. When we're designing equipment at book index Quitman Corporation, we use 3d printers, and we use 3d printing sources to do rapid prototypes. But food isn't about prototyping, or about, you know, short runs of something like a facade for an architectural building that you can then create a concrete with a 3d printer where you couldn't otherwise do that. Food is about the day in day out creation is something that that you want to eat. And in general, like the 3d food technology that's out there right now is all about extruding, paste, and then setting that paste into something else. And there's only so you know, so far you can go with the extrusion of different types of paste. I mean, it's hard to get all the different textures you want, hard to get all the different flavors you want. I mean, it's not immediate, if someday they could, you know, scan a steak and then reproduce it exactly, then I don't know, maybe, but it's just not what I think about when I think of food. I like to think about my food being produced, I like to think about it growing or being raised. I like to think about how it's harvested, how it's treated, and none of these things as yet are reducible to pushing a button and printing it out and like not even close. I'm not saying that that won't happen someday, but it's not even in the realm it's not even in the it's not even in the sphere of what's going on right now. Literally what's going on right now is paced is being extruded out of tubes into shapes. So it's it's it's like, hey, look, the applications the brain dead what you need applications. Do you want your scalp pays to look like Mickey Mouse or spatial? Or do you want like you know, your boyfriend's head. You know, in hot dog meat. If you want your boyfriend's head and hot dog meat, either to chop it to pieces with a samurai sword or to you know, lovingly munch on it, then 3d printing fantastic. You know what I mean? Because it is great at reconstructing your boyfriend's head out of hotdog meat. fantastic at it, there's no better way because unless you're gonna hire an artist to make a sculpture or unless you're gonna mold your boyfriend's head and then jam hot dog meat into it to make a boyfriend. Hotdog head, you know, and by the way, you know, that's assuming that you can stand to skinless wiener because you know, I prefer Frankfurter with a real skin on it. You know, I'm saying Stiles is making some weird faces now. But the because her mind works in in in gross ways. Boyfriend hot dog head face. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Winner. Oh, we interface on jeez. So the, by the way, like, I