Hello, everybody, and welcome to a brand new series on heritage radio network called the culinary call sheet where we give a peek into the back kitchen of culinary media. I'm your host, April Jones,

and I'm your co host, Darren bresnitz. Part of why we started the show was to offer an unofficial mentorship for anyone who's interested in learning about all aspects of food and video, whether that's TV, social media online, or just something you want to do for fun.

Absolutely what was once niche or a little silly, as I'm sure you remember, Darren, when we started out, this man has now become such a massive playing field for so many creatives using food as the medium.

It's something that has driven us professionally and personally, for so many years. What excites me the most about this show is that we're going to sit down with some of the industry leaders to hear how they made it and what drew them into this industry.

With 20 years in the culinary production game ourselves. We're hoping we can give through these conversations an insider's view into personal stories from the field, as well as an in depth behind the scenes look into some of the most popular food programming. In today's evolving culinary media landscape.

We'll be covering everything from how to style your food, to how to license IP, to developing your own ideas, and some tips from the masters of how to host your own show.

Yeah, it's a little bit of conversation, how to and how do you do the things that you do in color media, which I'm so excited about? I love so many of the guests that are coming on this season. We have talent from Food Network from Vice media eater refinery 29,

we've met some of the best people in the world both in front of and behind the camera. And we're bringing them all together to share their stories, their delicious adventure and their unique journey into this crazy world.

So to be the first to hear our episodes when they launched this fall, go to wherever podcasts are streaming and hit subscribe and make sure to give us a follow at the Culinary call sheet on Instagram.

Today's program has been brought to you by underground meats an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. For more information visit shop dot underground food collective.org Or stop by their butcher shop in Madison Wisconsin. You are listening to heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn, if you like this program, visit heritage radio network.org for 1000s more.

Hello and welcome to cookie issues. This is Dave Arlen, your host of abusers coming to you live Roberta's pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. join you in studio with us all Ethan starts with a hammer Lopez, Jack and Joanie engineering booth and special guests. First of course Piper Piper from Booker. Dax Hey, Piper. Hi. And Mark Ladner from Del Posto. All right, I'm gonna make you actually say stuff to get close to the mic there. Who? Dave? Well, I was told not to yell into the mic. Gotta get closer. I was told not to yell into the into the mic. Alright, so. So first and foremost, I'm going to make Mark Oh, by the way, call your questions to any of us, including Mark for all of your mark Ladner style questions. 270-497-2128. That's 718-487-2128. Mark. You're ostensibly here to to give plugs for your barbecue thing you're doing the right way talking about

Yeah, came to review with Aaron and Patrick some of the logistics for this small get together we're having on Saturday morning at the Heritage warehouse, which is on the same block. So yeah, I'm gonna head over there afterwards and check on my grill. Make sure everything's Yeah. And other others. Others are gonna come you're gonna bring your kid safe. When is it? Saturday evening,

this Saturday evening? I would I would love to. I would love to but someone's going to have to come take my place because I will be flying to Senegal. Oh, wow. Yeah, I'm taking a trip that is being organized by a good buddy from, you know, the grand Dakar restaurant, Pierre Tom, who has an excellent Senegalese cookbook called yo Lele I might have seen him on the iron chief who's on the iron chief. Yeah, yeah. No.

Yeah. Have you? Are you expecting a pretty exotic experience? Okay.

Well, I mean, the whole point of these trips, it's supposed to be a series of trips that chefs are taking, you know, American chefs are taking to Africa with a two with a two part, a two pronged kind of goal one, we get to steal ideas and ingredients and bring bring them back here, right. And to people over there. The hope is, is that locally, they'll say, oh, when people come visit our country, what they really want to see is authentic real deal stuff. They don't want to see some sort of BS, fake French or some sort of, you know, Western garbage, that there's that there's inherent value in doing, you know, very good presentations of local indigenous cultures. Yeah. Because, you know, and that's the same thing. And, you know, most places when you know, when I know, you're the same way, when you travel, you're you know, what do you got good here, like, what is Yeah, because, you know, you know, you know, you know, you've been to the you know, you've been to Italy, you've been to France, you know what's good there. So if you're going to, you know, if you're going to Senegal, you don't want some interpretation, McDonald's. Yeah. Well, it's interesting. I spoke to a good good friend of all of us actually, who's like, whenever he travels, he wants he goes to local McDonald's to see how they're different from American McDonald's. Interesting. It's kind of strange, though. Pretty strange. Yeah. Pretty strange. So anyway, so that's the that's the goal of that. And so someone will have to take my place at the barbecue but can they still purchase the tickets at the Eventbrite? Absolutely it does anyone know the the site to go to Jack?

The site is Italian barbecue.eventbrite.com

I'm not going to say that if you don't go You're worthless and stupid, but it wouldn't be possible. I'll say that. It's it's Yeah. What do you what are you gonna be making there?

Some sticks are making some spear Dini Yeah, made from heritage. USA is very own red wattle pork shoulder red. It's gonna be delish.

Has the price of red bottle come down to dollars is still absurdly don't

believe so? That's pretty absurdly expensive.

Not as expensive as the you know it's my favorite word is and pay related word is manga least that stuff I've never cooked with you ever cook with the manga least? It's pretty strange. Is it worthwhile? Yeah, it is. It's good. worth the money.

If you like pork you like pork?

I do. I do. I do enjoy I do enjoy the pork every Now speaking of pork, who's who's our who's our sponsors?

Today's so let's underground meats Madison Wisconsin have you had their product I have yet to have their product

I would like to try their product to see whether it is as delicious as I hope it is I believe there'll be

something sent out a beautiful show you know what I hadn't have cooking issues listener of cooking issues so

nice. i Well i I am excited to try it you know what I had last night from pork pork pork related, you know the Salem area Bill AC guys. There are excellent, you know, salumi curing outfit here in New York and New Jersey, good people have taught a lot of people a lot of you know, a lot of people who are known for their curing now in this area has spent a lot of time with the guys at seminary be lacy kind of learning their techniques. What they did that was very interesting way back in the day was instead of changing their procedures to meet to meet food code, they hired and paid for people to prove that their techniques were safe from a food from a food food safety standpoint.

Absolutely fascinating. I think they're the only people who have actually gotten away with that.

Yeah, I mean, they spent I think a lot of money you know, but they you know their point and I was hanging out with Paul from there yesterday and the point they made years ago when I first met them was well you know if I'm not gonna do it the way I want to do it I just I don't want to do it so you know, let's see whether we can and he did yeah, I don't know anyone else who don't know anyone else who does that but they had they had the most delicious wild boar supersoft that I had yesterday of course I'm from the so called super sad but anyway but like it was ridiculously good and they apparently they had these wild herds in Texas that they let roam free and then right before slaughter they heard them together and like a slaughter them I guess should have been ahead. So they it's all wild fed, but USDA really good. You have that product yet?

I have no I have no sounds gonna look out for you.

Okay. All right now to some questions we have Okay. Mark writes not this mark. Now Mark Ladner the mark from the noodle questions last week. Right Tim? Thanks for discussing my rice noodle predicament I've tried adding more water because I told him maybe add more water. If you remember if you listen to whatever he was trying to make a rice noodle it's made from partially cooked out hydrated rice starch mixed with more rice starch and water and pressed through, you know through a potato ricer into boiling water to make noodles and the reason you pre boil part of the starch is because otherwise you know rice starch doesn't really hold together very well if it's just rice, starch and water and it'll fly apart on you so so anyway, so that I told him more waters when I told him or a more baller press. Those are the two choices I gave more water. More baller, okay, I've tried adding more water but the texture the final noodles compromise. I'm definitely going to try the Indian noodle pressing you mentioned I can't see how that wouldn't work because he they in India, they make these noodles from cooked out starch and that they're really stiff. And so they need really hardcore presses depressing stuff out. Hey, have you ever tried Mark they that KitchenAid the new power extruder that fits on the KitchenAid

I haven't seen it. Yeah,

I mean, I read about it last for last week, but I've never never seen it. You have one of the really nice new password but not the arcobaleno Yeah, the other one. We got the arcobaleno

No. Yeah, the one. I'm not sure if the name right now. I think it's a tautology met and you enjoy it correct? Yeah, it's good. We don't do a lot of extrusion. Most of our stuff is handmade, but I've seen why they use it pretty interesting. extruder that's sort of like a cocking gun. Yeah, the one he used to use for the noodles. Yeah, it was pretty cool. Yeah. Takes a lot of torque, though. Man. I don't know how you would do it with a racer?

Yeah, I mean, like the writers. I have a I have a good stainless steel riser. But I also had a plastic riser. And I know that I would break it. I know I would break. I mean, I know me, I would bring it back to the question concerning the methods of hand pulling noodles that I was talking about that me Dave was talking about, in my limit, because basically, when you look on a handful of noodles, the question is, is that there's some guys, it's usually the people who are attempting to mimic, you know, Asian recipes from an American standpoint, they're pulling style and the hand pulled noodles is shows the dough is so slack that if they pulled overly hard at all, it would just fly apart in and nothingness and then occasionally you'll see those guys pull the stuff and the noodle strands will break and fall into nothingness. Whereas if you look at the actual guys doing it in Asia, they're throughout the dapper lap, adapting that stuff around. It looks like it has a lot more resilience to it. And from my perspective, a doe that has more resilience and if it could be pulled, it's going to have better tooth me it's just obvious to me that it's going to have more tooth. It's got more structure when you guess.

Yeah, I don't know what where's the introduction of that alkali water stuff that they use is that the real secret ingredient

well, so a lot of people are using they use alkali water in or they use baking soda. Most of American guys use baking soda when they're doing it and they add some and that shouldn't so when you add it to a regular noodle, not one of the kind of over process hand pulled noodles, but a regular noodle is going to strengthen the gluten and also depending on the color of our wheat you use a increase the yellowness so you get the yellow alcohol and noodles that have the snap to it. Right? But a hand pulled noodles never gonna have that kind of bite to it. Because in order to pull it if it had that kind of bite to it wouldn't pull, right? You know what I mean? So it's, you know, when you're making the hand pulled noodles, you have to get to the point where the, you know, where it's not so elastic, it's gonna break short, but that pulls you want the extensibility but not necessarily the the pull back elasticity. Have

you ever successfully attempted this yourself? No, no, no, no, I mean, I've never even known anyone that's tried.

I mean, I've tried it. I've gotten stuff that like I was like, Oh, I can see where this might work. But I've never been like, Oh, I'm good at this. Or, Oh, I would serve this to my friends or family. You know, and that you know, and so, but you know the guy chef Tom anyway, so let me finish that what is so concerning the methods of handling noodles that you were talking about in my limited experience if the whacking method is really helpful if your noodle dough has been sitting which makes sense because the gluten spans would probably be joined together a little bit. For more of a network I've only used the recipe from Chef Tom which is the one available on the Internet and I found that if you pull the noodles right out of the mixer bowl like he does in the video they are easy but they can tighten up after resting so a few quick flags can help get them back to being playable. Maybe the resting can help add shoe thanks again Mark I think you're right I think the rest of the shoot but you know the thing is I think like anything else there's so much more to know like the one thing I almost got good at was doing the dragons beard candy and even then I sucked compared to the you know the you know the the million year old dude has been doing nothing but Dragon Spirit candy because I don't know because that's all he does. I don't know you know, like anything else like there's the techniques the more you learn about them the more you know that you don't get you're not really good at what you're doing and that you're a farce you know, when you say but on the Oobleck noodles I was talking about if you remember this this guy saw this video this insane video where the person was Oobleck is something that like acts like a solid but then when you're hitting it but then when you're not hitting it you know it drains through it turns to a liquid and so there's videos of guys cornstarch and water is the most famous one you can make just mix cornstarch and water but and these guys running across a pool of cornstarch and water and then stopping and thinking all the way up to their chest in this pool of cornstarch and water and then we say well how the hell do you make these black noodles and eating Asia said it's they're actually not rice which what we thought last week they're sweet potato and Paul Adams has made a proper Oobleck noodle. And so you go onto my my Twitter they're cooking issues he made it with 5% pre cooked sweet potato starch balance uncooked with water and alum and I still don't know what the island does me Anyway, so enough with the updates on the noodles. Right, good. Okay. Ben writes in on miso and beans. Ben says big fan of the show actually became a heritage radio member at the low cost of about 50 cents per cooking issues episode Thanks Ben. amortized over all of our episodes. That's that's changed, dude. Yeah, we've done a lot of these dang things. Anyway, two unrelated questions. I saw Dave cheering on mind of a chef. Just Have you ever seen minor chef? I've not. I've not seen it. I don't really I don't. I don't get I get PBS now. But I well, I went to go look at it online. But the PBS took it off because because they're publicly funded, and so they wouldn't have it streaming understand that. Does that make any damn sense? Makes no damn sense. Okay. So they've changed my mind of a chef discussing the pitiful quality of American miso. Is there any way to make miso in a home environment? And could you achieve the superior quality to what's available in the store that way granting it may take a year failing that any New York City or mail order sources of quality miso, now look, you know, Dave is occasionally you know, liable to make some hyperbolic statements. In fact, there is you know, you can get some delicious miso here in the in the US and you can get some crap miso here in the US. Most Americans when they go by me so I mean, actually, Natasha, Mark and I were all in Japan about a year ago we had some I had some pretty good meat Did you have any good meat so when you're there I had some amazing me. So I had the guy who was the head of purchasing from Park Hyatt bought bought me some hot show me so which it is very hard to get really good hot. Show me. So here you see me I've never seen it available. I've seen really bad versions of hydro miso here that I guess weren't treated well. And hacia Musa is one that's aged for an extremely long time, it's made up exclusively soy beans, and it's very dark and kind of routing flavors and thought coffee and all sorts of really awesome stuff. And the real the real good stuff is just lightyears beyond the you know the crappy version that is that I've had here in the US however, they're extremely high quality pieces that are brought in most me so most people like the lighter musos or they they get hooked on the lighter me says like the shear on me says and things like that. And most of those are done with very short fermentation times. And then they have to dope them up with things to stop them stop them from growing in the package and blowing off. And so those can taste not so great, right. But any major city that has a decent Japanese population in New York being one of them, I'm sure San Francisco or any any is go to any one of those Japanese places. And they have on hand 2020 Different misses, some of which are going to suck, and some of which are going to be good. And now not being able to read anything in Japanese and not being able to communicate with a lot of people that are selling me this stuff. You know, even though they actually all speak they all speak English in the stores here and but I still for some reason can't communicate with them at Sunshine Mart. Can you have this problem with everybody else?

I don't know shit about me. So Dave anyway,

so but but if you've been to Sunshine Mart seen I'm talking about like they speak English fine, but still, they don't communicate with me. I don't understand it anyway. People you ever done this? Okay, so. So anyway, so because you're trying to, I want to walk into a store. Here's what I want to know, you have 30 different things. I don't want to fool around. I don't have the time. I can't even type this stuff into a search engine. Just tell me what the good stuff is point out the good stuff, right. And even though I know it's very nuanced question, like still like if someone walked in and then and you know, I had a bunch of different price ranges of things. And I said, Why is this thing cost more, they would have some sort of explanation. Anyway. So I ended up just buying like, you know, a couple of the higher priced ones and maybe one of the crappier ones to see what the difference is taking home. But there's some very very good pieces available here. But you can make your own if you want but the said me so is there's a lot of steps in miso and anything with there's a lot of steps, even though you can do it yourself. There's a lot of room for not being as good as the people who are actually very, very good at it as the same way that you can bake bread at home. But most of us unless we don't, unless we devote a lot of time to it aren't going to make bread as good as the best bread makers that we can go visit. But if you want to make your own, you should well first of all, you should probably own at any rate, Sandor Katz's book The Art of fermentation, he has a small section on me so and then he he actually directs you to the kind of steal, you know, I think almost two decades or more later, like grand tome on me. So by William Shurtleff and Akiko Aoyagi which is the book of miso the same people that brought you the book of tofu I've talked about these guys on the air a bunch of times the tofu book I think, I told you I called him and he was like he called me a bad person for trying to make tofu out of edamame and he said I was like, he actually said I think that I was a bad human being and anyway he you know, his book on tofu I think has been superseded with more modern books but I think his miso book is still the His and Her miso book is still the one to get. Beware that they have a bridge small paperback versions of the book of tofu in the Book a miso. And they've been hacked up and then re glued into a paperback form. And to me that was almost unreadable. Get the big version, that the larger version, whether in paperback or in hardcover, and you can go to his website it's funny thing, it's like both of them, it's always him and her but then Whenever someone's writing, it's always him writing something. So I've never know, you know what I mean? Anyway, so info center.com and good source good source for koji you need koji to make me so, and a good source for that is gem culture. www that agenda cultures.com What do you think given the Felisa? Yeah, you know, my favorite meals are like barley misses. Barley says, like barley Musa Piper and erratic, the hell's like me, so

I just don't use a lot.

Why What What's your hate down on Musa? Nothing, no hay down.

I just don't use it. Don't cook with it.

It's just delicious. I agree. I actually like you know, a lot of people like Chang hates this, but I like putting me so in things that it doesn't belong in. But I really like I like, I like milk based miso soups. I like cream of miso soups. I like I like meat. It's just such an awesome rich flavor. But, you know, apparently I'm a bad person. Because here's another one. Like, Okay, you ready for like a bunch of people? I'm gonna lose a bunch of listeners now. Ready? I like I like was I know that I'm a bad I know. It's bad. I know. It's stupid. And I know that like it and I guess you have to be a certain generation for this to be really offensive to you. But wasabi mashed potatoes tastes good. I'm sorry. They do. Like wasabi mashed potatoes. Tastes freakin good. Now, you know? Okay. I said, I'm a bad bad man. And it's like, incredibly trite. And you know, I shouldn't like them, but they don't tick. Yeah, right. But they don't taste bad. Do they taste bad? I'm not gonna make more comment, because you know, he's professional in this case. And if they don't taste bad, how about this without mustard mashed potatoes.

You gotta be ashamed. You

gotta call her. I gotta call her you're on the air. Hopefully, it's not about the wasabi.

It's not about wasabi. Hi, guys. I'm calling because I have a bunch of delicious leftover duck fat from Duck roast that I did. And I'm interested in a sweet application for it. So I was just wondering if I could substitute it one for one for butter. And whether you have any awesome recommendations of something that would be as particularly delicious. In a sweet duck fat pastry, kind of a thing.

Mark, do you think you got anything?

Yeah, I think it's I think it's awesome. Make a pie. Yeah. pie was the first thing that came to mind. empanada are some pens out the year something like that.

Yeah, I mean, it's gonna be a little softer, then it's gonna be a little softer than lard. Right. But any any sweet that you would add, Laurie? I mean, like, there's no, I've never made a better pie crust and a large base crust. Right Mark never Crisco. Well, that's illegal, though. You have a flavor of lard better than the flavor of Crisco, though.

That's true. Yeah,

I mean, I'm not I'm not like I don't really care whether it's a flakiest thing in the world, as long as the taste is good. Are you like a huge flake man? No, not necessarily. But flavor all the way. Have you done a pie crust with with duck fat or ever, I'm just assuming it would be good note,

I assume it would be good. But here's the thing I screwed into mashed potatoes.

Making fun with I wouldn't want to sweet mash that. But check this out. One thing I'd be aware of is when you're making pie crust, you know, everyone says your butter has to be like exactly the right temperature. I find that that's kind of like crap that you can kind of make pie crust with any form of butter and any form of Crisco. And in fact, Stein garden in in his first book, you know, has a whole thing where he and Marion Cunningham make pie crust, and they don't worry about the temperature of their water or anything like that. But once you move to highly plastic fats that tend to grease out on you lard being one and and presumably duck fat being another especially after it's rendered duck fat, you're like, oh, it takes forever to render out of the skin. So it must be really resilient. No, like once it's there, like it softens up quick in your hands and you're working with it. Now, chilling your water and making sure that the fats exactly in the right plastic range is going to be a lot more critical because when you're making those kinds of things, I guess empanadas not as much but when you're making like a pie crust, you really don't want to melt out too much of the fat into the into the flour because it's just going to change the consistency whatever you want to say would be bad but it won't be the same consistency is my feeling.

What do you like buttercream frosting? Good question. I don't know. Some sounds good.

Actually. This is this is why I like Piper around but like a duck buttercream a duck or cream ducky ducky cream. I would try doing I would try maybe subbing half out to see whether it works that's what I'm thinking and then so like you know, replace half of the butter with the duck fat. Because Piper This is why we keep Piper around Piper has some awesome ideas. He also is the master of punch if you need a punch. Yeah, you need to come to paper for the ball over witnesses. Do any of these ideas help out at all or no?

Absolutely, that was really helpful. I think the half and half is probably the way to go. Alright, so

in freezing it and in thin sheets for eliminating Oh yeah. Best way to work with colder the better.

Hey go bang All right great. And so we're gonna call that one Piper Piper. We're gonna call that we just remember Piper when you make it and you tweet that tweet back to Cooking issue saying that it was delicious. Just you know. Don't forget Piper. Okay. Thanks a lot. Okay, the second question Ben had was what's the deal with kidney beans red kidney being toxicity. My understanding is if soaking followed by boiling can deactivate the toxin and kidney beans which is a phyto hemagglutinin but that temperature is below boiling could exacerbate it I've seen Texas obviously non Texas style because textile chili has no beans in it right I like beans and chili my also bad man because I like the intellectually I like beans chili Dave Piper beans and chili. Yeah, yeah. So you know people who are meat only just need to need to get over it you know, purism of any sort, like sometimes purism is fine, like at dinner parties to have like, we could talk about Colonel Sanders being appearance later because, you know, he was like kind of the purest of all time insulting his own restaurants. That stuff's amazing anyway, but there's no reason to be purist and beans and meat. They love each other so much, especially in Chile. So although I like a meat only chili I've seen obviously non Texas style chili recipes. They call for beings to be soaked and salted overnight then simmered on a gentle heat for a couple of hours in a Dutch oven on a stovetop. Is that safe Kenji alter recipe on serious eats is one such example. Okay, so here's the deal. Kidney beans, and a lot of other beans. Similar beans contain in them pH a phyto. hemagglutinin along with other what's called anti nutritional factors, right. Some of them are, you know, indigestible things. Some of them are protein absorption inhibitors. And some of them are just, you know, sugars that you can't digest and so they make you to toot Yes. Latest Ooh, that Piper bustin out the fleetest. Yeah, it's what makes them a musical fruit. Let's just put it that way. And you know, Booker, my son Booker has stopped eating beans because DAX told them that they make him fart. He's never had a problem with it, like Booker's never been running around the house tuning out with beans, and yet the idea that it might happen now is turn him off of beans until he says data you need to you need to have a way to guarantee that they won't make me too and I was like, I can't I can't I can't do that. I can't care

that much time on the subway, though you do you should be concerned.

Well, he Yeah, he's not a subway tutor. I hate the subway tutor. Not as bad as the airplane tutor. The airplane tutor is the worst. What? You want the worst the crowded bar to like, because you're trying to like enjoy something. And like someone like just Toots out at the bar. Anyway. Okay. So if you go on the FTAs website, and they're bad, Bookbug book, right? They in fact, put out this notion. And if you go on the Wikipedia, of course, like you can trust the Wikipedia. And if you go on the Wikipedia, they both mention the fact that incorrect cooking, and they both mentioned, I think 85 See cooking at these kind of simmering temperatures can increase by some lino order of like five fold the toxicity of of the pH. And what it is, is it's a form of a lectin, which is a protein that bonds to to polysaccharides. And another another style of thing like that is ricin which just got mailed out to some of our politicians unfortunately, comes from the CASPER beam, but that's deadly. Pete the PHA is not going to be deadly. But if you eat too much PHA in in the form of a raw or undercooked kidney being it's not fun, like you know, you got yourself some diarrhea and some some sickness and some but you're not going to die. I don't think I've probably not, although don't take my word, don't go out and eat raw recutting. But in your essay, you can read about it in the clinical complications. But as you say, what's the deal with that? Why would cooking it at a lower temperature make it much more, much more toxic. And then when I went to try and read all the scholarly articles I could get on the subject of deactivate because it's a big, it's a big deal making getting rid of the anti nutritional factors and things like kidney beans. In fact, I did not see that that was the case I did not see any situations where soaking and low simmering actually made it much worse. I think here's my feeling on it and please someone who's a doctor come and tell me why I'm wrong that if you were to cook a bean at a temperature that wasn't going to deactivate a lot of the PHA it wouldn't taste cook. So if the bean doesn't taste cooked, then the beans not cooked and you're probably shouldn't need it. If the bean tastes cooked. It's probably been activated at 85 You know, it's probably been activated, cooked above a temperature to deactivate to denature the protein to an extent that it's okay. My guess is that the person who that whatever study would I was not able to find, even though the US government puts it out there as a fact that you can make it worse by under cooking it. It's got to be that partially breaking up the bean and then masticating it makes more of the bad stuff that you haven't deactivated yet available to your system. It's got to be it right now. I can't think of any other mechanism. Anyone? Anyone just cooking kidney beans. More often what a

lot of people put beans in the crock pot. You think you hear about people getting sick from it?

Yeah, you think well, so another study I read call to see if I can find the name of the study here. I can't but it's called like clinical presentation of kidney bean toxicity and it just came out this year. Oh, here it is clinical complications of kidney bean Phaseolus vulgaris consumption by Sandeep Kumar, February 2013. Made the interesting point that these toxicity things come up more often in the UK than they come up in the US different cultivars, perhaps that we consume. Another possibility is that aside from actual toxicity due to PHA, there's, it could be another factor in allergic reactions to leguminous things and maybe there's some other complicating factor the ones in the UK I don't know but this study specifically said there's a higher incidence of problems in the UK because in the US you're never like, Man, my cousin man in the hospital after that kidney being you know what I mean? Does that ever you've heard of that?

Never do no doesn't happen. Okay.

Oh, commercial break, come back with the issues.

Underground meats is an American producer of handcrafted salami and cured meats in Madison, Wisconsin. They use small farms from Southwest Wisconsin to source their meat. The animals are raised on pasture for their entire lives by farmers who care about animal welfare, while underground meats uses European traditions. They also use ingredients from the Upper Midwest to try to create new types of Salamis experimenting with both ingredients and techniques. The Salamis are made using heritage breeds mostly red wattles, Tam warts, Berkshire's and mule foots try their award winning cured pork shoulder and goat salami, to learn more and purchase products visit shopped up underground food collective.org or stopped by their butcher shop in Madison, Wisconsin.

Great, welcome back to Cooking issues. All right. So we have a question in from Mike in Orlando says Dear David hammer and little did Mike know that Mark Ladner would be in the studio today to answer this question so that I wouldn't have to give my kind of useless information on it. Mark. Again,

don't assume that's going to be helpful.

I think this one's going to be good. David hammer every weekend at our house. We also have family dinner with my in laws. I have family dinner and although not usually my in laws are always welcome when they're in town. My wife really loves carbonara who doesn't love it. It's good product. Good stuff. Yeah. I'm trying to figure out the best recipe for it. I've heard you and hammer argue about bacon versus pancetta. I live in Florida. We don't have very good pans headed down here. What do you recommend? Love the show? Thanks for everything Mike in Orlando. First of all before I let you recommend it, do you believe in the old school where people soak and soak in like simmer their American bacon to get rid of the smokers that just ruining the flavor of the pork all over the all over the map?

I like to smoke Dave? Yes, yes. Mark Ladner we're in America dammit.

Oh, sweet. Sweet. Sweet. All right. Well, you know, I really don't think much more I can say about that. Because the fact of the matter is baking is delicious. But if someone actually wanted to have more of a pen chat experience, do you is there any good mail order source of pancetta or anything? Anything you like here perhaps

be lazy?

Did he mail order?

I imagine they would. It can't imagine they wouldn't.

Right? I mean, they make it top they make top notch stuff across the board. But

poorly made industrial pancetta is absolute garbage. wouldn't, I wouldn't recommend using it. It's just really salty and smell and smells and tastes of chemicals and stick with some bacon.

Yeah. Yeah, but especially in something like that. If it doesn't have this smoking at the poor quality of the poor porks going to shine through right? You don't want

the poor but one of one of the alleged good stories about the history of carbonara is based off World War Two to American GI C rations and being powdered egg and some sort of bacon product.

Have you ever made it with powdered eggs? I never have that it's no good. Powdered eggs

depend depends on how desperate you

are. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, as Colonel Sanders said about the Egg McMuffin, I would eat it in an emergency. But we are well, in case I put some of it up on on my Twitter feed last week, but we've been reading around here this 1979 interview with the 89 year old Colonel Sanders, where it's genius interviews in a book, a humor book called junk food and this guy goes to the Colonel Sanders and he brings an Egg McMuffin, a fillet of fish, a Big Mac a Krispy Kreme donut and then a bunch of you know some other some other you know fast food stuffed and milkshake and all this and gets this current V kernels opinion on it as well as the kernels opinion on Kentucky Fried Chickens own products, and it is an amazing an amazing interview the guy hit the hit him a Krispy Kreme donut and that kernel pulls a gold spoon out of his pocket and just starts nudging all the different foods and when the guys what do you think of the crispy creamy to size is there's the ceilings like I did not like East raised doughnuts. It turned into balls of dough Don't you know anyway, like it's like amazing, amazing interview. Sunday we had to just put the whole of it up on the on the cookies websites Hillary gets sued. Okay, so I think we got that we got the pancetta we got to get to know them. Okay. You can get bacon that has less smoking it also if you wanted to, although again, smoke is delicious. Now here we're on to the tasting portion of the cooking show. We've never done this before we're doing a live taste on the air. What what she's saying pop it open Piper. So John Piper writes in Deer cooking issues, peeps. A few years back, Harold McGee showed that holding olive oil a deep fat frying temperature for five minutes drives off pretty much all its distinctive flavor compounds. Some Italian cookbook authors, Harrumph did that by somehow Italian cookbook offered authors it's Marcela Hassan. Some Italian cookbook authors who run at that and said the olive oil will indeed impart its flavor when cooking an egg under conditions much milder and Harold tested. Most of us cooking at home use olive oil in the huge gap between those applications in the initial minute or three. But when the oil is hotter than you'd want it for an egg. Can you give any useful guidelines? Well, shit, I mean, shoot, keep. I love you, Piper. All right. I didn't mean to curse on air. I apologize. We'll get Jack and Joe to Bliss. That first one in a while though. I gotta hand it to you. Yeah, but what I thought was happening was these like all of these containers that I had like labeled that the labels were getting mixed about and none of us would know which containers were which and then the entire thing would be ruined. So I apologize out there and listening land for the for the curse.

What does your oil smell like eggs, Steve? Okay,

yeah. Oh, good nose. Oh. I love that. I'm the same way when someone cracks something in the thing. I'm like, what is that blah, blah, anyway, okay. Okay, can you give any useful guidelines about how fast olive oil loses its flavor as it heats up, and whether those flavors are transferred and retained in the Cook product as the oil loses them? Well, I can't give any hard and fast rules. But I did read Harold McGee's article that you forward to us, which was a New York Times from November of 2010. And let me just say something about Harold McGee is that when Harold McGee does something, he usually does it right? You know what I mean? He doesn't mess around. So he sits there, and he doesn't make off the cuff statements, ever. I mean, never, you know what I mean? And so you should go read his article. He tests a bunch of different seed oils, a bunch of different nut oils, and a bunch of different olive oils of varying qualities under two different heat regimes, and then takes those oils also to take those oils to specialist olive oil tasters and has them taste it to see kind of what happened. And the result is that in his opinion, most of the actual quality of the olive oil is lost fairly quickly during the during the cooking time. There was a rebuttal on zester daily by Nancy Harland Jenkins, and you can read it on their Friday good bottle. And I'll give you a quote and I have a lot of respect for much Ozon because who doesn't have a lot of respect but she says something here that really ticks me off. Hassan who has degrees in natural sciences and biology immediately rose to the challenge, peril, McGee's challenge. She seemed to have a great she seemed to have a great sci fi in our Facebook page. It was discouraging once again, to see a scientist writing about cooking as a scientist she wrote, you can only make sense about cooking if you write as a cook now. I absolutely hate when people say especially about McGee, that he is just a scientist in a lab thinking about McGee is a lover of all food eating gustatory experiences. And he doesn't sit around like I hate the majority. also a food science where things are reduced to meaningless quantities and you don't really get a feel for what actual cooking is like by reading it or, or the studies that people do don't actually have a lot of implications for real world cooking. McGee is not like that biggie is not a scientist in a laboratory doing McGee is someone who if you read his original book, The Curious Cook it fantastically shows you like if you want to know what's in McGee's mind how McGee works, read a Curious Cook, it's out of print, but it's easy to get. And what he does is is he notices something in a kitchen or someone tells him something and sparks an idea in his brain. And he runs it into the ground and he runs tests using his mind and his mouth. He is not he like I know what it's like to talk to scientists who poopoo the real world and actual experience McGee is not that so I bristle at any implication that that is what Nikki is doing in the article because that's just wrong. Now, what she does say is that anyone that's cooked and quote someone that Nicki knows but that wasn't in the olive oil tasting that everybody knows that if you cook an egg in a good olive oil, it's better than if you cook it in not good olive oil. So what I have for these guys to test here, I have the same oil under three different procedures and I want you to smell them and you know, tell me about the different oils. And then I have one egg cooked in in an olive oil and one egg cooked in a well I didn't have I didn't have any non olive oil in my house actually. So the only thing I had was Pam so I put an extra amount of gross kind of Pam in the because I use it for my waffle maker. A Pam in the and fried egg and Pam. Yeah, so why don't you guys first just go for the oil so it pass pass these around here. Which one? Let me read the lid because it doesn't doesn't. That one says SL o All right. So what are your What are your thoughts on the SL O?