Hello, everybody, and welcome to a brand new series on heritage radio network called the culinary call sheet where we give a peek into the back kitchen of culinary media. I'm your host, April Jones,

and I'm your co host, Darren bresnitz. Part of why we started the show was to offer an unofficial mentorship for anyone who's interested in learning about all aspects of food and video, whether that's TV, social media online, or just something you want to do for fun.

Absolutely what was once niche or a little silly, as I'm sure you remember, Darren, when we started out, this man has now become such a massive playing field for so many creatives using food as the medium.

It's something that has driven us professionally and personally, for so many years. What excites me the most about this show is that we're going to sit down with some of the industry leaders to hear how they made it and what drew them into this industry.

With 20 years in the culinary production game ourselves. We're hoping we can give through these conversations an insider's view into personal stories from the field, as well as an in depth behind the scenes look into some of the most popular food programming. In today's evolving culinary media landscape.

We'll be covering everything from how to style your food, to how to license IP, to developing your own ideas, and some tips from the masters of how to host your own show.

Yeah, it's a little bit of conversation, how to and how do you do the things that you do in color media, which I'm so excited about? I love so many of the guests that are coming on this season. We have talent from Food Network from Vice media eater refinery 29,

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Hello and welcome to cookie issues. This is Dave Arnold your host of cookies coming to you live in the back of Roberto Dmitri here in Bushwick Brooklyn on the Harris REO network every Tuesday from roughly 12 Now to roughly one right check Yeah, exactly.

Rough over here.

A rough a rough Well, you know, when you're in a you know, in an old container in the back of a pizzeria you're you know, you're a little rough. Right. Right. Join as usual witness Tasha the hammer Lopez and with a special guests who Jackie won't explain the contest here.

Yes, John Sisson, I hope I pronounced the last name right. He won and auction at just food to spend a day with me here at Heritage radio network. So he's sitting in for cooking issues.

Yeah, nice. Nice. And John. was a chef retire How long ago

15 years ago now?

Yeah. And where we were we just having him for our

I was at the Old Town bar on 18th Street for about 10

years. Nice. Nice. How you enjoying your day so far?

It's been great. I've heard two or three shows and really enjoying and loving the back of Roberta's here yeah, that's

nice. I mean, it's interesting seeing that people eating their well I guess they're just now eating their lunch. You'll see some some weird folks I've had we have people doing their hair while looking at us. Right like it's a one way mirror. Very strange. Very odd stuff I business.

Before we start the show, I have two big shout outs John riper listener, and he submitted a few questions, made a very nice donation to heritage radio network. So thank you, John. And today you're Hoonah Malka, and I hope I said that correctly, became a member of heritage radio network.org as well. So cooking issues fans showing their support.

Beautiful. We have a question from both of them and it is Yehuda from Silver Spring Maryland. Give some give some love for silver spring. You ever been in Silver Spring, Maryland. My car broke down there once Joe has Yeah. Joe. Nice. Yeah, Joe as usual and Natasha, this is your first full week of having a Twitter accounts What do you think? I like it? Yeah, in fact, you're looking at it right now are just texting Zappos is that the first time?

She said I like it on the program? Oh, it

might be. It might be speaking of we have some we have some Natasha related questions. Today, Justin Bray went into into the Twitter and said how did Anastasia get the nickname the hammer? Or what do you think? You gave it to me? You know what I mean? Like, what's your interpretation?

Because I'm tough on people. Why don't you tell them why you

know, because the whole point is that we have this thing where I'm supposed to be nice to people other than her and she is supposed to be mean to people and see this is the way most you know kind of business teams work right where you have the one person who's always kind of you know, friendly, right? So they never appear to be the Jackass right? And then you have the other one the hammer, who basically is like now all that stuff he said that you could have or that he was going to do he's not going to do that and you can't have it. She's supposed to do that. But it turns out people that she's actually only mean to me, so not true. Well, you're actually you're made

other people may try to be mean to people you are not happy about it. And you're like What are you doing? That's not That's not okay,

right. And also she has all the subtlety the fine subtlety of a hammer but also you know, hammer boom strength. Yes, right. Yes. Yeah. Right.

What was the other one?

Oh, the other one was trying to find oh yes from John powers Kirk must be to you although you were raised and said can you tell Dave that you're smarter than him but then with an emoticon afterwards that kind of like so I would believe him except to use the wrong your L brain hammer out. See, I was gonna say that's why she's a hammer. I was gonna leave that out. I was leaving that out of the equation. Happy avoided it might take that series. And how do you use the name a hammer unless you bring it up as strong cepting emoticons now? I look a mustache. You can do this. You can do what she likes. She can do what she likes. But you know what, like, that is that is the occasional show of strength. That makes me appreciate the Lopes a little bit. Okay. Cohen, you're pushing to shove 184972128? That's 718-497-2128. Let's go to the question. We already had a question we already have from John riper, new donor and member. Thank you. And as we said, I guess a couple of weeks ago, apples are better when picked riper, right? Wasn't that how it worked? Okay. Dear cooking issues, peeps, I often hear chefs say that roasting meat on the bone gives it more flavor. Is that true? Or is it the same kind of perceived wisdom as searing the meat to seal in the juices is when and for those who Oh my god, indeed, Jesus is bad on Tuesdays. I know I know. You know, I wish that everyone who can hear our voices could see the glory, the glory that is indeed Jesus listens back to the table and we're not allowed to play other people's music anymore, but I need a little bit of what's the buzz tell me what's happening going on for your little Andrew Lloyd Webber actually and maybe just for us to listen to during the break so that I can have some indeed Jesus will credit them or whatever we need to do for the I'm sorry, John of that for the for the a tangent here, but now I got indeed Jesus, on my mind. Okay. So as we all know, searing the you know, searing the meat to seal in the juices is an old, an old thing that chefs and cooks say that dates back to Justus von Liebig. And it was this is one of Harold McGee's great kind of personal hangs his hat on this fact is that he was the first to call what's the what's the polite way of saying BS, just horse hockey or whatever? Yeah, the first to call crap on that crap on searing. And in fact, searing is just something that is makes incredibly delicious crust on a meat has nothing to do with sealing in the juices. Right? Okay. I mean, searing still, obviously, good practice just doesn't happen to seal in the juices. So back to the question. Just so you know, the background for John's question. Okay, I can see how the bones could affect the shape of a roast and influence heat transfer into the flesh. But I'm missing how a bone generates much flavor even to adjoining meat, let alone how a bone affects the flavor of roasted meat. That's further away. John, I think you're you're dead right here. I think what the bone is, is the bone is a moderating. It's a moderating element from a heat transfer for standpoint. Also mean I guess you can make an argument that the more you hack into a piece of meat to get rid of the bone, the more you spread it out, and the less it's a whole piece of meat. But yeah, I think it's mainly in terms of actually adding flavor other than the fact that I love Louis Prima song, the closer to the bone, the sweeter is the meat. The last slice of Virginia ham is the best you can eat. You know, aside from that, I don't think there's much to it from an actual flavor standpoint, and assuming equal cooking, if you took a cube of meat that was far away from the bone or close to the bone, other than the inherent muscular differences between them. I don't think there'll be much difference in flavor. What do you think? Yeah, yeah, I mean it's it's a it's yeah, it's I mean like that's one of the things you still believe in Sasha in your in your kind of like, you know, panoply of memes or you don't think about you don't, you know, she's like what does it have to do with Zappos? Nothing has nothing to do with that but so I don't care. By the way, the other thing I had back on you being smarter, the smart one of the two, which I'm not denying, by the way, but my feeling is that's true. I just get a secret feeling that John powers Kirk is in fact, just another biscuit hater. Like you. It's another hater of biscuits. Anyway, actually, like questions like that? I mean, I would love someone to call in and tell me I'm an idiot, moron. That in fact, that bone really affects the flavor, but I don't think so. We could. What? It's not going to happen. Are we getting a picture of indeed Jesus that she's gonna tweet? She's not gonna get a good one that looks like the Messiah is delivering pizza. Look at that. Okay, well tweet it out.

Just like to go on record and say Dante is a really great guy. Before I do this,

there's no denying that he's a mean like, would indeed Jesus make him a bad person?

No, no, just in case listeners think we're

gonna put it out there. Great guy.

All right. I mean, I don't know the man. Other than that. I wish he would deliver me peace. Oh, he might. He's working our station. Oh, this is awesome. Okay. Tom writes in Hi, Joe. Joe, you get the cola first. Jack, Anastasia. And Dave, my family wants more bread than my wife and I can bake. And so she's wanting a bread machine. But these are bulky and expensive. For a grad student in small apartment. I'd have trouble justifying the purchase if the machine only makes bread. Are there other uses for bread machines like low temperature baking, curing, Suvi, etc. Alternately, could I use some other device to bake bread? And if it turns out you're a fan of bread machines. What's your favorite? Thanks, Tom. Tom, I am not a fan of bread machines. My grandpa had one and and it was kind of sweet. He always used to bring over these like strange square loaves of bread with the bottom ripped out where the little mixing thing was in the bottom of the bread machine. I never was such a fan of my grandpa's loaves. And so I never developed a deep abiding love for bread machines. I will say this. When I was an undergraduate. One of the ways I would my wife was I went to the thrift store and I bought you can't buy that they don't buy the old ones if you have a family because you know all of the insulation is made out of asbestos and the cords are made out of asbestos and I'm sure their fire hazards. But they used to sell these old things called the turkey ovens because the idea was on Thanksgiving that you had very little oven space and you need to cook a bunch so you would cook your turkey in a separate separate oven and it amounts to a cross between a crock pot and an oven and it looks like a giant dutch oven with a plug coming out of it. And turns out they get hot enough and they can make a passable a loaf of bread you have to cut a special plate to fit into the bottom so you can pull it out in and out easily. But you can even put like a quarry tile into one if you'd knock the edges off the quarry tile and fit in and they get hot enough to make a decent loaf of bread and they're small somewhat portable, cheap. They can they can still be had it through shops if you want to dare the old plugs or rip the old plug off and put a new one on. And that's how I used to bake bread. I was an idiot moron and I didn't go get a stone. I used to rip the backs off of notebooks the cardboard backs off of notebooks and bake my bread on noses my sheets, and yes the bottom had a slight cardboard he tastes but I was 18 I was 18 anyway. You have you found a bread machine Sir John, are you ever use

one? Mostly for the Dell only? Oh, because it's a good mixer of the dough. Mixing dough and actually I'm a big fan of the No need recipe.

Oh yeah, the Leahy No need recipe.

That's great with the steam that's generated in a cast iron pot.

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of us nowadays, a lot of us nowadays are shifting towards the super long, like whether or not you're a firm advocate and we're talking about Leahy's book, what's called bread my way. And also Bittman who wrote a bunch of articles and at times about it, and he kind of, you know, and Stacia worked for him for like 25 seconds. 30 seconds. How long was it a month? Yeah. Anyway, so you know, fabulous breadmaker. I mean, I mean, if anyone lived in New York prior to when les he opened Sullivan street bakery, like you know that when his bakery hit, we were all like, Wow, that's good bread. Right? Right. We're all like, wow, it was good bread, it still is good bread. But it's kind of a miracle in in kind of bread, I think it you know, was a harbinger of a lot to come in the way of not that there wasn't good bread here in New York. It was good bread here in New York. But I mean, I think his style of bread was kind of new. And we really in here and we think everyone really appreciated it. And his book made a lot of ways and I think one of the reasons it becomes so popular is that in addition to his No need kind of recipe, which is seen as a low work and therefore American friendly way to do things, we're all all of us, going to much longer longer, longer rise times in our in our in our bread baking, when we have the time to do it. And so I think the most of us now especially build into our regimens. If we're going to bake whether it's pizza or whether it's bread you know we're more apt to plan a day or two in advance and so we can do some of these longer it's not that they take more physical time in the kitchen it just takes more actual clock time for these things to happen. And so I see a big shift and I think that's one of the reasons that's become popular but I never thought of having one Destiny the dough it's an interesting idea because you don't have to like mess with it like you do it because it KitchenAid makes a horrible mess.

Quick and easy. Yeah. hour and a half you have dough and then you can bake it off in your in your turkey roaster in your

turkey roaster. You know, I bet you could probably get bread machines in thrift store on eBay to sure probably right. I might as anyone who's ever heard me before knows I'm a huge fan of the buying stuff cheap on eBay. And then, you know, fixing it all with duct tape, although in the stash our New Year's resolution. No more duct tape. Well, no more ghetto. Yeah, no more. Yeah, yeah. Right. I mean, like, we don't want to be the people whose boxes is stuffed together with duct tape. We want a new box. Right? Fair? Yes. Yeah, fair. Speaking of wishing stuff, you know, we need to convince some company to let us test out a vacuum machine so we can shoot the cocktail book. Okay. Anyone out there who runs a vacuum cleaner I happen to like the mini pack we never had, we were supposed to shoot a thing for mini pack, we never did it right. Mini pack mini pack makes a good vacuum machine. They think all the all the vacuum machines work. It's just whether or not you liked the people like the programming and like the features the mini pack that what I liked about and we're gonna talk about vacuum machines in a minute what I like about the mini pack, and I'm not saying that they should ship me one. But what I like about it is it has a it has a really good chamber size for the actual footprint of the vacuum. Which to me is important because and to a lot of our listeners important because you know what you end up getting limited by in a vacuum machine is the chamber size of the vacuum. Okay. You think I answered Tom's question? Yes. Okay. I don't think they're accurate enough to do low temperature cooking by the way to go back to your other question. And they're not also meant for I think complete, although they they can take a mirage I'm sure the gasket in the bottom, there's probably a built like a blender in that way they could take a full thing of water. I you know, and look, theoretically, you could probably take a bread machine, PID, control it with it with an external thing, like rip out the plug, put the heating element, I mean, because I've done that, too. You know, the why it's steam table bass, that, you know, we all use, like the big electrics did it just click on and off, on and off. I modified one of those to do low temperature cooking once with a with a thermometer, a PID. And you could do that with a bread machine. And you could probably even rip out the motor or slow it down somehow so that it could just stir and then put a grate over it so that you could throw bags into it. And you could theoretically hack the thing into a into a low temperature cooker. The problem is, is that the I mean, if you look at the loaf size, it's kind of like tall and loaf shaped, or round and low shape I think I think my grandpa's was square, but I think they're round most of them right now. Or they're square shaped the vessel that they

bake in their square, either vertical square, or the horizontal square like the traditional loaf, but that mixing doesn't work nearly as well. Now,

I would go vertical if I was going to. Yeah, but but the point being that it's not a large volume for low temperature cooking. And so I think you'd have trouble not from a power standpoint, probably but from a from a cooking area standpoint, converting it to a low temperature cooking machine. And okay, okay. Now, here, here's, here's a long one. And this is from Mark crasner writes and who's moving from New Zealand to Hyde Park, I guess I guess or not whether it's moving, he's gonna start teaching at the CIA's new culinary science program in Hyde Park. And we're friends with some of the folks. By the way, I don't know whether we do we announced this last week that I'm actually like the French culinary or the International Culinary Center. And and we have parted ways. I don't think he did. Yeah, so just so everybody knows my long term tenure at you know, what, when I was hired as the French Culinary Institute, like we're now no longer working together anymore, but we're all still very friendly. Right? Yeah. Anyway, so I am no longer the director of culinary technology. But very proud of what we did there. We did a lot of excellent stuff, and we wish them all the best. Okay. Anyway. So if CIA wants to hire me, I'm just kidding. I'm just messing around. I don't know her enough time. To time. Anyway. So Mark Ross. Now I currently teach a viticulture at the eastern Institute of Technology in Napier New Zealand. I wonder where that is when we're Napier is Do you know? I'm very bad with my New Zealand geography, but love Xena Warrior Princess. Okay. I currently teach viticulture at the eastern Institute of Technology Napier, New Zealand. But we'll be heading to the States in May to start teaching the CIA's new culinary science program in Hyde Park. I very much enjoy your show. And I love the fact that you folks know your science. Thank you. A colleague of mine Chef Mark Hayes has told me that he noticed the meats fully vacuum for Suvi cooking seemed more tender to him than those with less vacuum during sealing. We recently conducted an experiment to test this hypothesis using the gluteus medius muscle dissected from whole top sirloins triplicate samples or samples were sealed at three different levels. And in an audit in an audio on vac via mess 53 sealer and I which I don't have any experience with that, but they were they were done at medium vacuum and full vacuum at the lightest vacuum they could do. Now I'm not allowed to talk about any specifics of the paper because it's in review. So I won't do that I'm just talking about the other parts of it, which are important to me anyway. One of the pieces of information we needed to write up and publish the paper was the actual pressure experienced by the food at different ceiling levels. I contacted the manufacturer, but it gave me no numbers as to the actual vacuum that would be affected by a pump strength because it was affected by the pump strength, age sizes have to be sealed leaks, etc. What they did tell me was it the number on the dial does not correspond to the percent vacuum, but it's rather the number of seconds that the pump runs. Therefore, I had to check the pressures on the dial of the machine in our kitchens during ceiling. What I found was surprising, at least to me full vacuum pressure, the dial set all the way occurred at about 30 seconds, regardless of the setting on the dial, suggesting that the pump has only one speed and that full vacuum would actually be achieved at numeral 30 On the one to 99 setting, which is totally misleading in my opinion, if it first of all, let's, let's hit that before I go on. It's a long type thing. And I want people to keep track of what's going on here. older style vacuum machines. And we're talking about chamber sealing vacuum machines that we use to seal foods and bags typically for for low temperature cooking. Or if you go into a supermarket and you're buying meats that are cryo bag or whatever right vacuum sealing, older style vacuum pumps have a timer in them, and they run their pumps for a certain length of time. After that length of time, they seal the bag, let the air come back in and it's done. newer style of vac and for those ones, literally, it's just a timer on it. And so you're just setting it for a length of time. newer style vacuum machines have in them vacuum sensors that are actually sensing the level of vacuum that's being stored, they are still however not accurate as to what is being experienced by the food in the bag. They are accurate about what the vacuum level happens to be right where the sensor is. Now how can those be different, right? Like they seems like vacuum should be the same everywhere. And instantaneous basis. That's true. However, many of our foods have trapped air on the inside of them. Leafy greens have lots of air on the inside of them anything with bones, there's lots of air on the inside of a bone. And so many of our foods have trapped air. And one of the biggest demos that we used to do for low temps to VT at the at the French culinary in our in our in our classes, and I've done it at the Harvard lecture, she throw a marshmallow into a vacuum machine, and the marshmallow expands. And everyone's like, Oh, that's cool, the marshmallow expands because the air on the inside is expanding and it can't get out. What's interesting about the marshmallow experiment isn't that they get big, it's that they start shrinking again about 10 to 15 seconds after you start sucking the vacuum. And what that tells you is is that the air inside the marshmallow is slowly leaking out. And what that means is that the eventual pressure that your food will partial pressure of oxygen and atmosphere that your food will feel on the inside of the bed is dependent on how much of the trapped air that you get out of that food. And that is not measurable by a gauge on the inside of your vacuum machine. Now in your experiment where you're using presumably whole muscle cuts, without a lot of slices in them that are not all jammed together and a bunch of different pieces and there's no bones in it. Right? Then you can start making assumptions, like whatever the gauges telling you is fairly accurate. But here's another point, right? So the gauges in a typical vacuum machine that have analog gauges are horribly inaccurate, and horribly inaccurate. And especially when you get into the range of interest, which is where you evacuated over 90 to 90 and change percent of the error that's available in there, those gauges are because there's much less for them to measure than there is for them to measure at full pressure. So they're horribly inaccurate in those in those ranges. And so it's difficult, not impossible, but difficult to gauge with an analog gauge exactly what's going on with with one of these machines. Now you could put a fairly accurate digital gauge in there and measure it. But again, it's not necessarily going to be indicative of what a customer or a user is going to experience on a piece of meat when they're doing it. Another thing is, is that I don't like that some machines measure in percent vacuum percent vacuum is a horribly imprecise term, even in the imprecise world of measuring the vacuum on the inside of a vacuum machine. Because the closer you get to 100% vacuum, right, the more widely variant, the actual numbers that they're measuring are in terms of millibar. So it's it's difficult to measure that way. So instead, I like the ones that measure in millibar. Here's another thing that true that a lot of companies won't tell you unless you ask them. Some companies that have gauges on the inside of their vacuum machine will actually measure the pressure up to a certain level and then just throw on a timer there. They're like so you know the old mini packs work that way they'll actually We measure the vacuum level up to about 90 98%. And then after it's at 98%, vacuum, it just starts counting off a timer. And you know how I know this, because I defeated the machine stuck my finger against the vacuum thing, let it go up to 98% released my thumb, so the air was streaming through the machine and atmospheric pressure, and watch the numbers keep ticking on up to 99.9% vacuum, this is how I test these kinds of things. Because back then I had more time than good sense on my hands. So that's how it works. Okay. So back to back to your question. Or back to your, what you discovered is that we found large and statistically significant differences in the sensory sensory parameters between the medium and high vacuum levels when compared with the minimal minimal vacuum levels, but very few differences between the medium and high vacuum samples experienced the same pressure. This suggests that more time at full vacuum has diminishing returns as far as improvement of sensory properties in a relatively non porous food like muscle foods. Okay, now, and you're I have a lot of comments on that. I'm going to wait for a second, your question after that is, is this mode of action typical of vacuum sealers? Or do most actually as settings that correspond to the actual pressure in the ceiling chamber? I'm suspecting that my vacuum machine is rather old and not exactly top of the line, and the newer ones might be more adjustable. I figured you guys being experts on the equipment side of things might be able to help me out with this question. I think it'd be very interesting to redo this study with an actual measured half vacuum around 5500 kPa. Although I only think in millibars, which is millibars, like 1065 1065, millibars is atmosphere normal, like standard atmospheric pressure, and zero is full vacuum. So anyone that wants to discuss in a way that I understand has to go in millibars, or my brain just means there's only so much I can keep track of people. Okay. Back to your other statement, I actually believe exactly the opposite of what your paper

what you what you're suggesting. In other words, I think that the higher vacuums actually decrease the quality of the foods, okay. And what you're saying is extremely interesting, because, and, you know, we haven't done it in a controlled way the way you have, but we've done it in my over many iterations of the suevey, low temperature class that we've taught. And what's very interesting is is that is that the likes and dislikes because you're talking in your thing, tenderness and juiciness, which are terms that are so loaded, that I hate, I hate using them, and the actual, whether you like it or not splitz kind of down the line where some people really like the low temperature, low vacuum pack samples. In fact, ziplocks I think, are the ideal for those people. I'm in those people. And then you have the camp that seems to like the higher vacuum one. And whole muscle red meat cuts are the least affected by the vacuum level in terms of sensory perception. chicken and fish like salmon are the ones that are kind of affected the most. Here's the deal when you and this is why tenderness and and and juiciness aren't necessarily good indicators. When you truly into something that's cooked, that's bagged and cooked at a high vacuum level, it explodes with juice in your mouth, and then in my feeling turns to mush because it almost has a fibery characteristic that you don't necessarily get at the lower vacuum levels. So in the people that like that, it's that's perceived as being juicy because you get this explosion of juice. And it's tender because it's soft. For me it is lack of structure. And when the more you chew the the first three bytes first free choose rather, are extremely filled with juice. But the last three chews are kind of dry and pulpy. So to me, I liked the quality better at much lower vacuum levels. So it's difficult to equate, like statistic like actual statistically measurable things like how much juice is expressed, or how much force it takes to drive a, you know, a probe through a piece of meat. Much harder to do. Much easier to do that than to actually say, well, which one's better and which one's worse. What do you think says okay, and with that, let's go to our first commercial break cooking issues

this is fishes fishes vodka by the meat ballers.

Today's program has been brought to you by rolling press, rolling presses a family run commercial offset print house that brings together environmentally friendly methods, ethical practices and personalized service. Founded in 1998 by Eugene Lee and his father Kambli rolling press represents the harmony of traditional craftsmanship and green technology. Rolling press prints using soy and vegetable inks uses a variety of certified and recycled papers, and they incorporate a chemical free production process. For more information visit rolling press.com.

And welcome back on your question is 27184972128. That's 718-497-2128 What do you like better? The crazier that are the mellow mellow? Yeah, yeah. All right. This is from Yehuda Oh, just became a member Thank you Huda Silver Spring Maryland.

back because they're they're really tentative about starting it. I agree. Like people are

writing, right.

Are they the one class?

Like like that like that? Like the one like that? The sarcastic one? Yeah,

I just get like a golf clap in there. Maybe

get the old Bronx. You know, the old Bronx like the give them a raspberry like wow. Yeah. Anyway, so I know. Check. The statue like, you know, what? Is she trying to live up now? Now that someone asked why she's called the hammer. She's trying to she's dishing out. Oh, he's

been so nice to me. And now.

By the way, Jack, did you get the date for Valentine's Day or what?

I went dateless on Valentine's. Oh,

man. Do you have a pity party machine? And they're like a little

nice. Yeah. So what do you guys do for Valentine's Day? I hope Ben will cooked a good dinner for Anjali there. I don't know whether I gave him good advice or not. I haven't heard back yet. Which means I probably didn't. And now he's a hater. Right? Right. Me that gave him bad advice. What did you do Dave? I went to Del Posto Anastasia we're so I know that you weren't with your date? On Valentine's Day because he was serving me dinner. Yeah. Excellent dinner at Del Posto as usual. Anytime Dave can dreaded ruin my happiness he does. Oh yeah. Because Mark was gonna be home with you that he was supposed to be home earlier through such a low

tech the iPhone Oh man. Dave is still here. I'm not gonna be back by 11

tables over for me. It wasn't two tables over for me it was it was a guy that he knows and sees every week. sitting at a table you know, it was like a known that I like his food. Like he has to worry about me and stay at the restaurant now. Please. Oh, fair. Fair. I know. I'll take that hit. I'll take that hit for Mark about Brooks's cookies. Oh, yeah. So Brooks, you know look Brooks who also signed on in Norton. Congratulations to got a book deal. I'm sure he will actually deliver his book on time. Oh, and as they get to grips one of my favorite one Yeah, he would actually being a you know, a punk rock musician. But you know, I really appreciate his pastries. So here's what he did. So to Del Posto you know, what do they got? They got like 8 million stars in New York Times or something like that. And so you know, you're eating in a relatively formal environment, right? It's probably the most formal Italian Italian based restaurant in the city. Is that true? Or like Maria to there was as formal Yeah, okay. Anyway formal and so Brooks comes out and it's my anniversary like I said of going out with a dating my wife but you know, our relationship is 21 years old now and can drink and so he comes out and literally like takes these cookies. It puts all these like beautiful plated things on the table and then throws cookies at it like explodes cookies at the table since that I'm almost positive that some cookie shards hit Anthony Weiner in the head. Actually, that's not true. He was like three tables over. I was like Anthony Weiner. Anyway. So yeah, so shattered these cookies, and kind of broke the format, which I kind of liked. You've had that presentation, right? Oh, I haven't. I've just heard about it. And people like it. Because they're not expecting it. First of all, don't post Oh, like they'll post Oh, the guy can't use a crumb scraper. The guy comes out with like, a napkin folded up between two spoons, which means it takes him 18 freaking years to scrape the crumbs off of your table. You know what I'm talking about? Like Jen dropped a little spot of wine and they brought out the extra tablecloth that cover the one thing I hate when that happens. I hear here's the thing for all the I understand that's part of the formal code, but you're probably making my wife feel worse that you had to bring out a bib. to the table than the little spider one. Yeah, yeah, if you spilled it, then cover it. But you know, whatever. They put it wherever I like it, but my wife was like, Man, I'm messy. I'm like, Yeah, you are because normally I'm the extremely messy ones to be honest. Anyway. So like, there's all this formality and then Brooks comes out and explodes cookies on the table in your life. And then you eat the cookies and stuff. Good. Yeah, I agree for him. Like all props, props, props. Okay. Dave and Dave and crew because it just didn't want to get in trouble with it with the no Joe. So instead of just Cena saying it all out, just said and crew. Hey, crew, I don't anyway, this Yahuda I'm currently transitioning between careers. I've been working as a high school teacher for the past seven years, and I'm now back in school for something totally different. While I was still teaching a friend and I sit separately, yet simultaneously began teaching ourselves how to be better cooks, mostly via process of experimenting with recipes and techniques that seem beyond our skill set, while also focusing on fundamentals of culinary knowledge, joined by a mutual love for cooking, especially for others, I guess cooking for others. That means nothing who likes cooking for themselves? Really? Do you like cooking for yourself?

I do actually really thrifty and saves a lot of money.

That's true. But I mean, like, you know, whenever my wife's on vacation, I just make poached eggs. Like if my kids aren't around, like if I'm alone. She's like poached eggs. And not even like, you know, maybe it's cuz my wife doesn't like poached eggs, but I like I'll sit and like put poached eggs. Weird post eggs, toast toast and sauerkraut always lets you just eat poached eggs, toast and sauerkraut. That's it, and weird. I'm a weirdo. Forget about it. Okay. Okay. Especially for others. We started a small catering outfit. We have done in home multi course dinners as a hobby slash side business, interpreting dishes from the books from books like the French Laundry, which by the way, think you know, people forget how like revolutionary the French Laundry Cookbook was back when it came out the original French Laundry Cookbook, like in in English for America, the giant one. Yeah. In English for people at home. Like there were very in American English. Anyway, very few books prior to that, that were literally what was going on in the recipes of, you know, at that time, probably the top kitchen in the entire country and not at all dumbed down. Like you had to get the anchovies you had to bone the anchovies. You had to soak the anchovies and milk, then you had to you know, rub the edge. You know what I mean? It's like it was all the steps. And so I think people tend to forget kind of how groundbreaking that was. Anyway, Alinea, also excellent, interesting book, published book, you know, Grant almost, I guess, self publishing that are doing it himself and then getting it published. Right. I mean, I think he did a lot of not in the way that Myhrvold anyway whatever monos cuisine everyone knows Gray's cookbook achievement of all times, and others for kosher dinners, who would otherwise a diners who would never otherwise get the chance to try the kinds of foods found in those books in those restaurants. We are still learning isn't everyone hopefully. And that's that's so true. If the day you stop learning, hopefully you don't stop learning until you die. And hopefully you die only a long time from now. Okay, and love your show. Both of us had questions answered last week, I am now working during the day managing the kitchen of a different business while attending college at night. Which brings me to my current list of questions. Neither of us has the time or money to attend culinary school while I can, to an extent teach myself to cook better by the very act of cooking more making mistakes and trying again, I know that I could never effectively run a busy restaurant kitchen is that organization and efficiency taught mostly in school or on the job? What would you recommend I do to build these skills on my own? Well, it's very good. Well, you can learn to cook on your own. But it's very difficult to build the actual skills of working in a restaurant. When you say on your own, literally on your own. I mean working in a restaurant can build those skills or going to culinary can build those skills man I think one of one of the reasons to go to culinary school. And you know, Dave Chang, you know, my my partner, my business partner is you know, he's he's anti anti everything. David Chang is mainly anti the idea that a whole young generation of cooks goes to cooking school, and I'm paraphrasing him now. But they go to cooking school, and then they think that all of a sudden they're going to become a celebrity chef and get rich and and not have to work the hours on the line. And that's not true. And somehow people think that cooking is is somehow glamorous, when in fact, it's grueling. Back me up on this job? Certainly, yes. Yeah. So and this might be interesting for you as well as a professional that you weigh in on this. But I think school can serve a function for someone who is a career changer, who just wants who has the money, right? And just wants to jump in and your goal isn't to be aligned, cook for five years and then do X y&z Your goal is to be an owner sooner rather than later and to never spend all that time on the line. Maybe going to cooking school is a good bet for you or as a parent buying, you know, a younger kid a career. I see it as can be a valuable, valuable thing that way. Now they a lot of the chefs that I'm friends with who just spent a lot of time saying that you don't need to go to culinary school. The interesting thing about them is that to a person, they've all gone to culinary school. In the generation I'm talking about now, which is, you know, 20, let's say 25, to 40. To that age range, like most of these people who are really successful actually have gone to culinary school. I think in the generation just above them, you have a lot of success stories that haven't, who just came up through normal kind of apprenticeship situation. But really, in that age range, most of the high flyers that I know of did go to culinary school. But, you know, that said, every cook on Earth respect someone who just shows up in a kitchen and says, I will do whatever, I will work as hard as I can. All I want to do is work. I know nothing, you know, everything. Let me learn your way. If you do that, walk into a kitchen, very few people will turn you with some people might say I don't have room for you now. But if you use those exact words, they'll say I have a slot coming up in X amount of months, especially if you come recommended from someone like you can find someone that will will vouch for you that you're a hard worker, and you just show up, but you have to be willing to eat crap. I mean, really, I'm not literally but you know, figuratively, you know, you right, John mean, this is how this works.