Hello, everybody, and welcome to a brand new series on heritage radio network called the culinary call sheet where we give a peek into the back kitchen of culinary media. I'm your host, April Jones,

and I'm your co host, Darren bresnitz. Part of why we started the show was to offer an unofficial mentorship for anyone who's interested in learning about all aspects of food and video, whether that's TV, social media online, or just something you want to do for fun.

Absolutely what was once niche or a little silly, as I'm sure you remember, Darren, when we started out, this man has now become such a massive playing field for so many creatives using food as the medium.

It's something that has driven us professionally and personally, for so many years. What excites me the most about this show is that we're going to sit down with some of the industry leaders to hear how they made it and what drew them into this industry.

With 20 years in the culinary production game ourselves. We're hoping we can give through these conversations an insider's view into personal stories from the field, as well as an in depth behind the scenes look into some of the most popular food programming. In today's evolving culinary media landscape.

We'll be covering everything from how to style your food, to how to license IP, to developing your own ideas, and some tips from the masters of how to host your own show.

Yeah, it's a little bit of conversation, how to and how do you do the things that you do in color media, which I'm so excited about? I love so many of the guests that are coming on this season. We have talent from Food Network from Vice media eater refinery 29,

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Today's episode is brought to you by Roberta's located at 261 more street in beautiful Bushwick Brooklyn. For more information visit www dot Roberta's pizza.com

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Hello and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host and cooking issues coming to you live every tuesday from 12 to 1245. On the heritage radio network in the back of Roberta's pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn, calling your questions live to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 joined as usual, with Natasha hammer, Lopez. And we're Jacqueline's today, right, Joe? He's in Puerto Rico, Jax in Puerto Rico, what you're doing in Puerto Rico

vacation hanging out with his dad. Really? Yeah, right. Yeah,

we're like, just like, I mean, do they have like family there they just hanging in Puerto Rico.

Apparently Jack took the week off. And then his dad's like, just come to Puerto Rico with me. Sounds a little fishy.

Yeah, sounds like yeah, you know, but anyway, I hope they bring back some good rum. I like Puerto Rican rum. You like Puerto Rican rum. Do you like Puerto Rican rum? Oh, definitely. Yeah, Natasha doesn't care because he's not listening. But I'm actually trying to help Joe out. So he's here to slip in his people. This is what I deal with on a regular basis, like constant undercurrent, sleepiness, constant undercurrent. Snippets. Do you like Puerto Rican rum? Yes. Yeah. Okay. Can you name a Puerto Rican? No. Okay. Ron abuelo. Okay. No, wait, no, it's Ron. Abuelo. Is that the Puerto Rican one? Not going to look it up. No, no, no, I'm getting confused by the way. A horrifying news I was when I was researching today, champagne consumption down worldwide 5% this year so far. He believed that was crazy. I mean, like, I figured in a stash and I've made up for at least that 5% drop just as just as the load mean that champagne. I mean, not that champagne industry needs to push during the French drink half of the champagne in the world. So I'm told wow, I mean, I mean, it's from there. I mean, it's make sense. I bet you we drink well over half the world, you know, Zinfandel stuff. Yeah, you know, and I'm not just talking like white. I'm talking real Issen Yeah. Well, well over half you go there. The French that I have no idea what you're talking about. You mentioned him to Lisa used to haven't been to France and number of You're anyway my point is, is that Champagne is one of the few drinks is my push for champagne. This show is not brought to you by Champagne. Is it Joe who's bringing this show to us today?

That would be Roberta's pizza.

Roberta's pizzeria is bringing us the show today. They sure are and Roberta serve champagne today. Not

Yeah, I believe so. I think we got a bottle of Prosecco for the 100th episode, right.

All right. Yes. Yeah, we might have I like Prosecco. Fine, but I love champagne. I love champagne, right, any sort of sparkling wine. This is the kind of the one of the very few things that Natasha and I can agree on is a love of sparkling wines. But maybe the show is part in part brought to you by Champagne since they sell Roberta's pizzeria champion. Go drinking. It's one of the few drinks that is kind of always always apropos. Right? Right. You know, graduation. What do you want? Champagne? Like around dinnertime? Champion? What about after dinner? At a brunch? Champagne? Cocktail thing after work? At your bar champagne. Any bar really? Right? Yeah, champagne. It's not a crack against, you know, our cocktails. It's just you'd rather just have had the champagne. A sad occasion you need cheering up champagne. Yeah. So a very few situations where Champagne is not to say people make a mistake, and they only drink it around the New Year's time as though you need to be celebrating something to drink champagne. And that's just not the case. Champagne is always delicious. There are very few things I don't like I like look, I will not have champagne with my bagels and lox. It's disgusting. I did not like champagne with cured cured meats. In fact, I love them both quite dearly. They're two of the things that are closest to my hearts. But all you need is a little bite of bread in between and you're okay so you what what happens is someone serves me a glass of champagne, and a platter of cured meats. Typically what I will do is I will take a couple of sips of the champagne. I will then have a bite of bread I will then eat the entirety of the platter of cured meats in you know depending on the size I can I can eat upwards of a quarter pound of potato every two minutes in that range, right finish it have a couple of bites of bread and then go back to the champagne. I think that's the way you should do it. But this is not only champagne. I also really enjoy good kava Do you like Kava Kava is actually my when I buy. I buy kava because it's actually inexpensive. But if somebody else is buying, I drink champagne. Yes. Actually, I own a stash of bottle champagne. Just good wine. I think the champagne is good. You don't like champagne. You want a red wine instead? No, no champagne would be good. Well, was it because you didn't know this? You thought the singer of kittens in the cradle was Cat Stevens. And it's not some other guy. Anyway, okay, who was it? I can't remember. Somebody look it up. Okay. Josh Whitlam writes in from Somerset, by the way, Somerset, land of apple cider and cheddar. Do you know that letter AppCenter cheddar. Anyway, it's kind of like where all that comes from anyway. He writes in it's the first comment we've gotten from the UK on liquid on the liquid nitrogen. The unfortunate thing happened with the nitrogen with the teenager who lost her stomach anyway, maybe something more discussed on the next show. I know David talked about it on the last one. Crazy what one does we say? What does one do to stop a party or group of people who clearly know nothing about this stuff they are trying to ban just talking about the liquid nitrogen attempted ban liquidation. People are talking about putting a ban on something that resulted in a horrific accident once they're so worried about it, then they should surely take the initiative. The surely best initial steps would be to install a certification system that qualifies the staff to use ln just like food safety, etc. The fault is clearly with the bar and a lack of incorrect training about LN and I'm sure if they they know it and that we do everything to prevent it a repeat of that accident in the future. Why isn't there a ban on cigarettes the dangers are clearly spelled out to us that we still make our own choice about whether to smoke it or not rant over love the show just Whitlam Somerset, UK. Okay. Well, the what Josh,

I agree with you in vast majority of it except for this one thing. And the big issue here. And this is the reason why this this incident in in the UK, where this teenager lost her stomach after consuming liquid nitrogen, which is ridiculous. No one should ever serve liquid nitrogen to someone. But that the difference between that and the incident that happened in Germany several years ago, where a cook brought home liquid nitrogen and blew themselves to pieces, you know, blew blew his hands off and damage that leg was put in the comments is that in this case, the accident happened to a customer and the customer wasn't assuming wasn't necessarily assuming any extra risks, unlike unlike cigarettes now. As far as the actual practitioners are concerned, assuming that there are no other risks, then I think you're absolutely right in your in your point. But the main issue is it is true, you should always take the utmost care to ensure that your customers are not exposed to any extra risk that they don't know about. Right. I mean, and so that's that's always the argument of why you need to put a label on the bottom of your menu that you're consuming something that's raw or undercooked. It's only if they don't have an expectation of otherness when you go to a sushi restaurant, right? It's assumed you're eating raw fish and that you realize that there's certain inherent dangers or that if you order a steak rare that there are certain inherent Eight years old, not much. But anyway, so the question is here is is the customer taking on a risk of which they aren't aware but in the large part, I believe, okay. And Kay Ingber, longtime listener from the show, wrote in and said he enjoyed the CNN broadcast. Thank you. I think they're gonna rear that guy that rear that broadcast as sometimes. Right before right before the Christmas before the Christmas said I was serious and fun in the right proportion, I usually have it exactly, exactly opposite. I'm usually ridiculous and serious in the exact opposite proportion of what's of what's reasonable. Okay. Number three, Ryan Santos wrote in and said, an industry friend of mine just got an ultra low freezer, it currently runs around minus 118 degrees Fahrenheit. I've never had something like this at my disposal. I'm curious if there are any cool techniques or applications with it. Thanks, Ryan. Okay, I did a little conversion there and minus 118 degrees Fahrenheit is roughly negative 83 Celsius. Now, what you're looking at here is you're in the range of an ultra low freezer or a super freezer. And here's the big here's the big deal. Now the freezers which are used in labs, but also in the storage of meats, store something at what I've heard in the industry called a below below the eutectic point or below the glass transition temperature of the foods that are involved. Now, let me explain what that means. And first of all, you have to get it in your mind, there's two, there's two separate things that happen when something is freezing, right? One are two separate things you have to worry about. One is the storage temperature at which you're keeping an item, right, and the other is the rate at which something freezes. Now these ultra low temperature freezers don't necessarily freeze things that much faster than you can freeze it using a regular freezer right? For fast freezing you need a blast freezer, or a fluid bed freezer or emerging directly in a cryogenic liquid like liquid nitrogen or something of this nature, right now. Now, the reason that's important is is that if you freeze something slowly, right, as you're freezing large ice crystals grow large ice crystals themselves can be damaging. So you have a very small number of ice crystal nucleation sites, and they form a relatively small number of relatively large ice crystals. More importantly, those ice crystals are being formed by water leaving typically leaving the cell matrix. So the food that you're freezing, dehydrating the cells just like you were dehydrating them and forming crystals in between the cell back in between the cells of the meat. So you're increasing the amount of moisture, it's it's in between the cells, you're dehydrating the cells concentrating a bad things that can go on and causing large crystals that can puncture the cell membrane, which all means that when it thaws, it will leak out, it will leak out its fluids. And you'll have drip loss and the normal things that you associate with damage due to slow freezing. If you freeze extremely rapidly, one, you get small ice crystals, you get a bunch of ice crystals. And if you freeze quickly enough, you can get ice crystals on the insides of the cells. And so you don't have as much dehydration of the cells and the structure of the meat or produce remains intact. And so that's what fast freezing can do for you. Now, here's the other thing, a lot of times people quote the freezing temperature of a food and food doesn't in fact have a one single freezing temperature, what happens is, is as you start approaching the initial freezing point of a food, water will start to pure water will start to crystallize in the thing. At a certain point, you're going to reach a situation where let's say you let's let's make this very simple. Let's just say we have salt water. Alright, so it's not food anymore. It's salt water. If you have just salt, sodium chloride and water, what happens is as you chill it, there, ice crystals will start to form. And as ice crystals form, what you're left with is more concentrated saltwater solution. That concentrated saltwater solution has a lower freezing point, so the temperature goes down a little more. And then you have an even more concentrated and it goes down and down and down until you reach the point where salt can no longer become more concentrated in the liquid, you've reached what's called the eutectic point it's a point at which that temperature is the lowest that system can get and still have them remain together. At which point you freeze out solid water and sodium chloride crystals, right? So it's frozen out solid. That's the eutectic point. In real food. There are a bunch of little eutectic points where things freeze out, right? Once you get below that. And at any point during that freezing curve. There's still some liquid water in there, right. And what that means is is that as temperature fluctuates in a freezer, that liquid water will melt and recrystallize as the temperature fluctuates. And so ice crystals will tend to grow over time and make your food crappier over time. So there's quality loss there. Additionally, that water it's in there is super concentrated with regard to enzymes, acids, salts, and all those things that can carry on chemical reactions. So even though temperature is a lot lower, so the chemical reaction rates are a lot slower than concentrations are increased a huge amount and so awful reactions can take place in your freezer. Once you get below the eutectic point of the last thing it's going to freeze out, they're still actually what's called bound, unfeasible water, and then unfeasible waters the unfeasible water. That's next to things like hydrocolloid, next to things like protein, and the reaction between the water molecules that are right at the surface of those things. And those molecules themselves prevent the water from actually becoming a part of the crystal ice lattice. It's around them. And so you have unfrozen water even below the last eutectic point, right. So the next thing you hit there, it's called the glass phase. And when you hit the glass phase, which is that low temperature there, everything stops moving around, basically, I mean, it moves it bounces from a thermal standpoint like the molecules are moving around, but the mala water molecules stop moving physically and stop undergoing chemical reactions. For all intents and purposes at that point, their product is stable enzymatic reactions are stopped oxidation reactions are stopped all the reactions in it that are related to food quality, stop ice crystal growth and, and re melting and changing stop. So once you free something fast and accurately using a different technique other than that low temperature freezer, you put it in that low temperature freezer, and it stays good almost indefinitely, like it basically doesn't move in quality. And Mark Ladner Del Posto has won he freakin loves it. He loves it. He originally got it, I think because they were buying super frozen tuna. It's called Super frozen. They were buying super frozen tuna. And that stuff stayed like super primo in there. I mean, like no oxidation. No, nothing was beautiful, beautiful stuff. And so he used it for that. But he's also used it for to store really, really fragile. I think things like mushrooms. I think things like truffles in a much better state than they could be stored any other way. So it's an awesome find. And it's one of those things that I wish I had on the phone. Okay, so listen, Joel, we have calling in for you to read an excerpt on the mired reactions from his most important book on food and cooking live from California, Harold McGee. Hey. So, so this was a specific request the person Joel, who wrote one of our theme songs that we use here on the show, as a thank you for writing the theme song wanted you to come on air live and read a section from on food and cooking to my art on my art reactions. Yes. So you you prepared to do this?

I am I have a question, though, because that paragraph does refer to the previous paragraph on thermalization. Should I just elute caramelization? Or should I start there? Huh? Huh?

The more the better I had the more the better. I think I think just go for it. This isn't by the way, the first reading we've ever had on so you know, give it some feeling, Harold, this is like a first reading ever. I'm very excited.

Well, you know, it's a first for me too. So I'm a little nervous. We have not, I'm not sure I'm going to do this. I'll give it a shot. All right, beautiful. All right, caramelization. The simplest browning reaction is the caramelization of sugar. And that's not simple at all. When we eat plain table sugar, essentially just molecules of sucrose, it first melts into a thick syrup then slowly changes color becoming light yellow and progressively deepening to a dark brown. At the same time, its flavor. Initially sweet and odorless, develops acidity, some bitterness and a rich aroma. The chemical reactions involved in this transformation are many, and they result in the formation of hundreds of different reaction products. Among them separate organic acids, sweet and bitter derivatives, many fragrant volatile molecules and brown colored polymers. It's a remarkable change and unfortunate one being still the pleasures of many candies and other sweets. Even more fortunate and complex are the reactions responsible for the cook and flavor of bread crusts, chocolate, coffee beans, dark beers, and roasted meat. All foods that are not primarily sugar. These are my yard reactions after Louis Camille my yard, a friend who discovered and described them around 1910. The sequence begins with the reaction of a carbon molecule and an amino acid and unstable intermediate structures formed and the stem undergoes further changes producing hundreds of different byproducts. Again, the brown coloration and full intense flavor result. My ARD reactions are more complex and needy than caramelized flavors because The involvement of amino acids adds nitrogen and sulfur atoms to the mix of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen, and produces new families of fuels and new aromatic dimensions.

Well, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Nice. She's got her happy face. It's just good. How are you doing over there? Hello, I hear you're coming to the Museum of food and drink fundraiser.

Yes, yeah, I'm gonna fly out to the east coast this coming weekend. And we'll be sticking around for about 10 days. So yeah, we got about that time. You know,

it's actually it's not a fundraiser and being it. Thank you. For people that already signed up for membership, but or who have been involved in the past. We're excited. So wait, can you work? Do you have a second? You want to talk about this recent stuff on on cooking sugar crystals? Or do you have a second or no?

I've got a couple of minutes. Yeah, yeah. So actually, the passage I just read about caramelization has been somewhat superseded. Because in that paragraph, I say, you know, when when you make care more, what you do is you heat sucrose crystals, which are solid until they melt, and then the melted sugars, start to undergo these other reactions, which turn them brown and develop other flavors and so on. And that's, that's still basically true. But very interestingly, I think it was 2010, that these first results came out, a carbohydrate chemist as I was trying to figure out why it is that nobody really on the precise melting point of sucrose, which is crazy to table sugar is such ordinary familiar stuff is used in so many different things. It's a solid, it's pure. And so it should have a very well defined melting point. And yet, when you look in the literature, there are dozens of different melting points. And they're kind of in a range, but you know, not not precise. And she wanted to know why it is that the melting point of sugar was so hard to measure. What she discovered was that technically speaking, sugar doesn't have a melting point. Which is amazing. That is that if you hate sugar, and you melt it, and you let it solidify a yen and then try to melt it again, the melting point that you get, the second time around is lower. That is it takes less heat to melt the sugar after it's been melted ones, and so on and so on. So the more often you know that the lower the the melting temperature becomes, unlike, for example, water where you know, the melting point is 32 degrees Fahrenheit, and it doesn't change. And so what you discovered was that every time you heat, sucrose, and that includes keeping it at room temperature, it's actually degenerating, it's actually degrading. So the sucrose molecules are slowly breaking apart into first its constituent parts, which are one molecule of glucose, one molecule of fructose. And then those sugars break down into other things. And what you discovered is that process is happening at a significant rate, even at room temperature, and certainly if you heat it up, enough to melt it, you're accelerating that and that means that what you end up with is a block of table sugar that, in fact, is no longer pure and gets progressively less pure, the more often you do it. And so I looked at that, and I thought that's really interesting. I wonder if I could caramelize sugar, solid sugar just by keeping it at a moderately hours. And so I put some sugar crystals in the oven, at about, I don't know how to 220 something like that, which is way below the melting point of sucrose took them out after they were in there overnight. And sure enough, they turn brown they're solid, but they'd caramelized

now why did you also had an effect where the inside liquefied? Do you ever figure out why that happened? Why it changed why it was differently affected on the inside of the crystals on the outside?

I don't have the equipment to you know to determine why exactly but I have theories and my theory is that so these are the big sugar crystals that you can buy, you know in Chinese groceries. They're like half inch long and and quarter inch thick. Like and I don't know exactly how they're, they're manufactured but I figure it has to do with you know the kind of thing that they're doing when you make ice cubes. They the crystal was ation happens the solidification happens kind of from the outside in and you end up with at the core of the crystal, just as you do with a with an ice cube, a lot of stuff, you know, dissolved gases and impurities of various kinds, I guess is that there, there's this little pocket of impurity is at the center of the sugar crystal, they hasten the breakdown of sucrose molecules. And so the, the caramelization begins there and proceed this furthest there. And so it's true that I've got some pictures on my website of sugar crystals of that size that are liquid on the inside. They're solid on the outside, still, but they've got liquid caramel on the inside, and you crack them open and the caramel leaks out.

So you think those big crystals are formed? Not from a single nucleation site out? You don't actually think they're single crystals. You think they're form like ice cubes and multiple nucleation sites? That's my guess.

But like I say, I don't I don't know what the manufacturing process is. Exactly. So yeah, I don't know.

You have time for you have time for you think I don't know, I have no idea. I've tried to grow crystals on strings, you know, for my kids. And I've never gotten a crystal even approaching what you can buy in a store like that not even approaching it. And I'm not talking like I'm not talking like, like, waited a day or a week. I'm talking like three weeks. You know what I mean? Like, like, go long waits. And but that said I didn't put it under into for instance, like a heated atmosphere with force of operation near and I mean, I just got it out on the on the counter. And presumably at some point, this solution. I mean, it'll eventually evaporate, I guess. 100%. But I mean, I did not have any luck growing big crystals.

And I said a bunch of different things, too. I tried.

Hello, you're cutting for a second you there? Yeah, you try. I hear you. Yeah. We lost you at a you tried and then you're about to see what you're trying.

Okay, yeah. So it seems to be part of the problem is the viscosity of the sugar solution. It takes so long for molecules of sucrose to get onto the surface. So I tried things like, you know, adding ethanol alcohol to the to the liquid to Senate. The solubility of sugar and ethanol is not that great. And I thought that would that would be pretty good. But it didn't work. I tried lots of different things. And I have no idea that it might make those big, beautiful crystals.

Yeah, that's something first to look up I guess for next time. Yeah, you have you have 30 seconds because someone wrote in with a question that actually you mean, you're an expert in most of these questions, but specifically on this one, do you have a second or No? Sure. All right. This was from Brett Adams, saying on the theme of Mexican food, I have a question about dry roasting chilies, which also applies to whole spices. Most recipes begin by roasting dried chilies hydrating them, then blending them into a sauce. The dry roasting is supposed to help bring out their flavor. My two part question is what is it about dry heat that makes ingredient more delicious? And be if I'm going to be cooking the chili later when it's in the sauce? What the flavor boosting aspect of heat happened then? Or is there something particular about dry roast and the individual ingredient first it doesn't occur when it's part of the sauce and only thing I would guess is that the higher possible temperatures in a non wet situation. I mean, I know that you've studied this.

Yeah, that's exactly Yep, the the various the chili or whatever spices you're using are in a spice concentrated and so you apply heat to that immediately gets way above the boiling point and you start to get cannibalization reactions, Browning reactions, the aroma compounds react with each other because you're at such a high temperature if you if you hydrate them and essentially steam them or else like that then you get a completely different set of reactions and they're not as extensive because the temperature is much lower.

Right So what are these other things where people it's like they're not it's not a better or worse it's it's a it's a different situation. I mean, like I know that if you take coriander and you dry roast it, you lose some of the citrusy things that can be nice. I mean so in other words, I tend to use like a combination. I know when I'm making liquors I'll tend to use a combination of untoasted and toasted spices when I'm doing it just to accentuate the different kinds of components right to me it's not a not a better or worse phenomena just a different thing, right.

Yeah, yeah. And same was true in Indian cooking. For example, you use some spices, you use a certain amount of the different spices but you use portions of them and pages in the cooking and then often the very last step is to fry some spices very quick. to the very end and for the top whatever it is all the way and you end up with all these different layers and freedoms.

Alright, well as always Harold thank you so much for calling in a pleasure to have you on the show we're gonna take our first commercial break we'll be right back with Cookie

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back to Cooking issues house turmeric wrote in it was fun though. It's muggy. Yeah. It's fun, unprecedented. And he's never been on the show before. I'm President having him read aloud. Yeah. Yeah. Next time. We'll get him we'll get him a landline citizen cutting. That was awesome. I've never heard him actually read aloud from the food and cooking. No. He's like the thing is you got to know Harold people like Harold. Harold is always a measured man. Right? True or false? I got out. Not always. Well, I mean, you know it well when it comes to food. Yes. Yeah, like in other words, like Harold is one of those few people. This is why I love him so much is that Harold will never talk out of his Nether parts. You know what I mean? Like he always thinks about I've heard I've heard people ask Harold. Some crazy nutbag questions and he's never he's never like he's never like the hell you talking about? Which is not what he sounds like. Obviously, you just heard him but like you've never liked that. You know what I mean? He's like, he's saying I love that guy so much. Anyway, gladly glad he's coming to the Museum of it. Okay, so Sternberg writes in on key meek, which is spelled Qi MIQ. Tom, right Qi and Mikey, I think was invented by an Austrian. He makes and carbonation. I've recently been introduced to the product key meek, their corporate chef demoed it at the culinary school where I work but sadly, I couldn't attend. I now have several containers of it to play with and wonder your thoughts on the product. The BlackBerry mirlo sorbet we made with a set beautifully and held shape at room temperature for damn near 45 minutes even while the texture softened by the way, my son thinks damage occurs. I'm like, man, you can't say it. But it's not really a curse. What's your thoughts? Does? I agree? I guess I think when you get to maybe be a junior in high school, you could say it. Yeah. Yeah. Especially damn on its own without that without the without the G without the cut. Yeah, like seems to me it's like, you know, yeah, you know, it's right up there with rootin tootin in terms of strength. Anyway, second, I've also been interested in carbonating a sphere or sauce, the ideal end product would be a plated element that wouldn't release the bubbles until it's in the mouth. Any tips would be useful. Okay, Alan, let's take the second one first, since I'm much more of an expert on carbonation. So the issue with carbonation is if you're going to put it into a liquid sauce, the carbonation is going to is going to leave. That's all there is to it. So if you specify it, what ends up happening when you specify a sauce It's carbonated, is that you develop a co2 pocket on the inside of the sphere. Now eventually, right? You'll reach an equilibrium at whatever the equilibrium vapor pressure of this stuff is on the inside. So if you could create a sphere like alginate, and we're versus fear, fear is terrified situations that actually was strong enough to hold up to it right, then you could do it, but you'd probably be talking somewhere in the range of 35 psi. And I don't know whether or not an alginate envelope or pectin envelope, pectin wouldn't do it. But like whether one of those are a gel an envelope could withstand that kind of pressure. Now, if you did it, right, maybe you could, in which case, you could just set you know, a coating of alginate or gelatin around the outside of a sphere phi thing, you'd get an air pocket in it, but the air pocket would Aquila, the non air Pocket co2 Pocket, it would stay there. And then it would stay carbonated for a little while. I mean, it's gas permeable, so you'd lose it eventually, but it would stay for a little while. And obviously, it would be fine. If you then stored that for a while in a carbonated container that was pressurized, then you could store it indefinitely until you're ready to serve it right as long as you could pour it out of the bottle, that wouldn't be a problem. But that is going to happen. If you really want to lock the stuff in there, you're going to have to go the route of heavy gelatin. So if you set a carbonated product with heavy like heavy carbonation, I'm talking heavy like 80 psi right as the stuffs going to set, which is around room temperature, then you can get a prickly feeling in the gel that you formed. It's not a sauce but the problem is it's more of a piercing like needle like carbonation less I'm poking mustachioed, I'm saying that so that can have the effect in my head of the piercing needle like carbonation but it doesn't feel the same as a soda it feels more like Pop Rocks you size you know how Pop Rocks has that kind of piercing feel to it has more of that piercing pop rock field. You can't freeze stuff it's carved. If you freeze a bottle that's carbonated in the bottle doesn't explode when it unfreezes it will be carbonated again but the freezing itself will force the co2 out and the co2 will only be present in the unfrozen section although at a very concentrated rate because as I said when you lower the actually I guess I haven't said this, when you lower the temperature you increase the solubility of the co2 Anyway, back to comique. I've never used comique I assume it's pronounced comique and it comes from I went on their website gimmick is a word creation. Uh hey would like if you'd have to do that much explaining about your product with the name then name is dumb. Yes, key meek. What does it mean? chemic. It's a word creation stemming from the words quick and milk demonstrating how quick and easy the product is to use. But what it really is, is they take this is how they make it I looked up h a m a food service is the company that has the patents. And whenever you find out what a product is, you really want to know what the hell's going on. You find the patent literature on it. So if you go to H ama How am I guess food service go to their patent, they have a patent on the technique they're using here's what they're doing. Because on the on their website, they say stuff like we're coding each and every milk cell with gelatin. What does that even mean milk cell does that mean? They're meaning they mean micelles, they mean casing micelles, what do they mean has no meaning no meaning this is the problem when you have like someone translating from their non native language into it, whatever. Anyway, it looks like an interesting product. But on their patent, here's what's actually happening. They're taking skim milk, and they're putting skim milk through a very specific temperature regimen, adding a very specific grain size and bloom strength of gelatin to it, holding it at a very specific temperature until it in swells the way they want it. They hydrate it by bringing the temperature up holding it at us for a certain length of time and then introducing a specific amount of light cream to it. 15% cream, right. They then homogenized it and pasteurize it, so it fills in like Parmalat container so they can stay at room temperature for a year shelf stable. That's what it is. Right? So what's happening here? And if you want to know why that makes a difference. You want to go this is the most I love it when I find people like this. Dr. Bernard Cole's homepage. Here's what Dr. Bernard Cole has to say about himself. He's from South Africa. I have a doctorate in Food Science from the University of Pretoria. I'm a retired I'm retired from full time employment. After spending 30 years in gelatin. I am willing to assist anyone who could benefit from my many fields of experience and gelatin. And this is his website. And his website is just a list of like interesting and cool facts about gelatin. He's in South Africa somewhere. But it's like gelatin, so yeah, he's like totally set gelatin. He's like, he's like you want to know about gelatin from pigs got you. You want to know about gelatin from cows got you got you gelatin I do it anyway, so he's like, he's like sitting there. He's like I don't know what he is 70 Something I don't know he's sitting there. He's like I'm retired. You got gelatin problems? I got answers he's like you know whatever you want to know about jello and he's got but anyway he has a page on what gelatin does in a dairy situations and in general, right so so what what gelatin is doing is and this is why it leads to all the cool stuff that can meat can theoretically do although I've never used it right? Gelatin is a great a foam. Former foaming agent, which is why it's used in marshmallows, okay, and it can emulsify l helps emulsifying things right It also is really good at stabilizing things like ice cream, which is why in your survey while you didn't serve in a sorbet, but it works in ice creams as well. Of course, it wasn't ice cream because you use comique which is milk based so book. So but right also, it, it protects dairy based systems from curling when acids are added. So you can add lemon juice and white wine directly to comique or vice versa. And you don't get curdling and it's because, you know, if you read further on into Dr. Cole's webpage, it's because the gelatin interacts with casein micelles and prevents them from aggregating and coalescing, breaking and falling out. So so it does that. It has a lot of cool things that it also helps to make an oil soluble things more soluble in dairy systems, right. And this, this is basically explanation and he links to a bunch of research papers on it. But it leads to the main things that Kimi claims that they can do their acid alcohol and bake stable without breaking so I actually I'd like to get a hold of some so we can make some tree molecules even though I don't really like them. I have people asking me constantly about the cream liquors. In fact we've answered two or three questions on cream cream liquors here on the on the stuff so maybe we can make some Bailey's that won't form that what's that? What's it called? When you mix roses lime juice and Bailey's in your mouth is disgusting. As a name is that the cement mixer? I think it might be the cement mixer. disgusting, disgusting. You know, no one over the age of 21 plus 15 minutes should ever consume one in their life. Like you're allowed to consume it in the first 15 minutes of your bar binge on your 21st birthday if you're here in the US but at no other time. Also, that you know, they say that it reduces butterfat because it's got a higher viscosity. And other thing Dr. Cole pointed out is that the viscosity of cream increases greatly without gelatin. And so it can make it seem like there's more fat in it. I don't really believe in replacing fat with things like gelatin because I just believe in adding the freakin fat. But that's me. I hate whatever anyway, okay.

It can replace flour, starch or roux partially because of that. So it's got a lot of a lot of cool a lot of cool stuff. It stays freeze thaw stable, going through cvwd has a lot of cool stuff, but I have not used it. But I've thoroughly enjoyed reading Dr. Cole's website on gelatin and related products. All right. And see very quickly, Steven silver wrote in I'm not sure whether we talked about this last week or not. US might have that man's writing with a dull pencil. who's reading there's a man outside writing notes in a notebook with a dull pencil and it's bothering the starship because presumably she's thinking about the noise that it's making as it's going. He's reading a book on Rauschenberg Are you Rauschenberg fan I don't know much but and Rick Bayless is here. This is not Rick Bayless. We're talking about another guy. This guy looks for all the world like, like imagine the guy from Mad man who's not Don Draper grew a beard. It looks like a LIVESTRONG sweatshirt. Yeah, if you can imagine what's the guy's name, you know the guy's name from madmen that his partner, the older guy that was sleeping around with the lady and the thing. It's that guy plus a beard with a Rauschenberg book and a hat and a LIVESTRONG sweater. Right. So now you picture what I love the old pencil and an NFL pet and I'm watching Rick Bayless eat his lunch, which is always nice. I love the Rick Bayless you like to read, Bayless. I've never been there, man. He's a good man. Good, man. Okay. Steven silver wrote in on lactic acid in meats, could you please review the concept and prevention of lactic acid buildup in cooking meats at low temperature, we sear any meats that we cook over three hours to prevent it and is 99% per percent effective in eliminating this issue. Just wondering if you have any updated thoughts on this by lactic acid, I'm assuming you mean lactobacillus growth, bacterial growth. And I think the fact that you're preventing it means that you're probably following the steps that you're saying you're preparing the meats and you're not crowding them in the bath. I think that a vast majority of the people who are having problems with blow off and lactic acid and nasty flavors in the bags are crowding their baths too much and others are trying to put too many things in the bath. That's what I think is happening. That's that is my guess. Okay. We have oh, we have a Joe, what's the question here? I'm looking at these two pictures of two vital vital preps, you're gonna give me the question. It'll Joe. Yeah, I'm