Hello, everybody, and welcome to a brand new series on heritage radio network called the culinary call sheet where we give a peek into the back kitchen of culinary media. I'm your host, April Jones,

and I'm your co host, Darren bresnitz. Part of why we started the show was to offer an unofficial mentorship for anyone who's interested in learning about all aspects of food and video, whether that's TV, social media online, or just something you want to do for fun.

Absolutely what was once niche or a little silly, as I'm sure you remember, Darren, when we started out, this man has now become such a massive playing field for so many creatives using food as the medium.

It's something that has driven us professionally and personally, for so many years. What excites me the most about this show is that we're going to sit down with some of the industry leaders to hear how they made it and what drew them into this industry.

With 20 years in the culinary production game ourselves. We're hoping we can give through these conversations an insider's view into personal stories from the field, as well as an in depth behind the scenes look into some of the most popular food programming. In today's evolving culinary media landscape.

We'll be covering everything from how to style your food, to how to license IP, to developing your own ideas, and some tips from the masters of how to host your own show.

Yeah, it's a little bit of conversation, how to and how do you do the things that you do in color media, which I'm so excited about? I love so many of the guests that are coming on this season. We have talent from Food Network from Vice media eater refinery 29,

we've met some of the best people in the world both in front of and behind the camera. And we're bringing them all together to share their stories, their delicious adventure and their unique journey into this crazy world.

So to be the first to hear our episodes when they launched this fall, go to wherever podcasts are streaming and hit subscribe and make sure to give us a follow at the Culinary call sheet on Instagram.

Today's program has been brought to you by s Wallace Edwards and Sons third generation cure masters producing the country's best dry, cured and aged hams bacon and sausage. For more information visit Surrey farms.com You're listening to heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn, if you'd like this program visit heritage radio network.org for 1000s more.

Call 184972108 or send 184972108 Is Dave Arnold cookies coming to you live every tuesday in the back of abundance pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn here witness dashing to hammer Lopes and Jack and Joe in the engineering booth How you guys doing today? Hey all onto our sleep we believe that two hour sleep Yeah

well that's why we needed a theme song like this one.

Yeah. I like the fact that we have been so stupid like I go into the crazy mode then here I am back in normal normal mode. No anyway, but we have like we have two songs which is awesome. So we have the break song and then we have the crazy you know get me going with no sleep song

will take more listeners will take more.

Yeah. By the way drawl. I'm trying to get McGee to call in and read the mired stuff but you know, for Christmas, it's that's gonna be his Christmas present. If I can convince McGee to do that. Who? Well, whatever mean like, you know, I can give someone a Christmas present regardless where they celebrate. It's not like it's not like I'm smacking them in the face like a gift as a gift if someone wants to get hey, look, anyone out there wants to give me a gift from some other religion. I glad to accept it. Yeah, right. What about you guys?

It depends.

He's like, no Zoroastrian gifts. Right? What gift would you not accept Jack? Jack and Joe who wouldn't accept that was me Jack

and I don't know. I mean, are there like Scientology holidays? Oh, yeah.

I think I think not. I think not to like enter now.

Maybe there's Scientology gifts.

Well, there's there's always one Scientology gift. Dianetics. Okay. We have a question in. By the way, seriously, you can call into questions live 278-497-2128. That's 74 9721 To be oh, this weekend, we had the CNN thing went on. I cannot believe that Natasha managed to not be on that entire half hour program. They didn't ask Piper either. And yet he's on you know why? Because he didn't hide away from the camera not hide. I was in clear view. That's actually not us rescheduled your flight back to the country to miss the cooking issues episode when they went through a lot of hoops. You're like, yeah, haven't come that day. Everything's fine. Oh, yeah, I'm not gonna be here.

They came the second time though.

If they'd already done most of the shoot, just people leave people. She does not want to be on the couch. She's a crazy person. She's crazy person. But not just for that reason, many reasons, please call in and convince her that next time she should not hide from the cameras, but I thought it was good. It was fun. Today, I will be like it's an expo today. Speaking of expose a, I was very happy with the program. I enjoyed it. Which is unusual. I detest watching myself in any any form. But the. So CNN did a blog, and the blog post that they decided to do was on a liquid nitrogen. So they like I don't know, they put the liquid nitrogen and then the internet trolls came out of their freaking caves. And we're typing all sorts of nonsense about liquid nitrogen. So first of all, it was all about that awful case, we talked about, you know, a couple of weeks ago, a month ago now maybe right? Where they are this like, you know, credibly unfortunate this 18 year old woman in England was served liquid nitrogen to drink, which is a horrible and unconscionable thing for a bartender to do. And she lost her stomach. And it's horrible and completely awful, but also would never happen with anyone who's using liquid nitrogen properly. But you get all these like freaks on the internet, who have no idea what they're talking about. And they just are slamming, slamming me for using liquid nitrogen saying things that are patently untrue, about liquid nitrogen. Like for instance, this one person, and I commented wants to set some stuff straight. And then especially like, Don't comment again, just leave it alone. Leave it alone, leave it alone. But here, it's my radio show, I get to do what I want. So this one person says, who's by the way, their actual name is yet right. I think that's their handle. Oh, I know, I'm kidding. Because any anonymous jerk sitting alone in their underwear can make comments on the internet. Like they're like, they know what's going on. But anyways, so what happened is they say, Well, you know, there's always the possibility for human error. So there's, there's no reason to do it, which is, I mean, the possibility for human error using liquid nitrogen, if you use it properly, in terms of, of a customer getting hurt. That way, like a horrible thing happened in England, is roughly on the order of saying that if a chef was chopping onions, in plain view of a customer that they might trip and throw the knife through the customer's head, and if that happened, then you know, we should ban the use of knives and kitchens. It's simply ridiculous. Like, I cannot state in stronger terms, how awful it is what happened in England and how thoroughly thoroughly punished the person is who did that and how freaking horrible it is that they did that and I also cannot emphasize in stronger terms that that is not a reason to ban the use of liquid nitrogen and that people writing on the internet simply don't know what they're talking about. And I kept on getting that the gimmick crap the guys the guys who are against Liquid nitrogen, by and large are throwbacks. It seems from their writing to like a very old school of thought where they just think everything's a party trick. They don't they're not bothering to pay attention forget what I'm doing with it or you know, anyone at the bar anyone that knows me as associate with me. If you look around there are many, many uses of liquid nitrogen that are they're not gimmicks right, I'm sure there. There are uses of liquid nitrogen. They're gimmicks in the same way that if you go to a Benihana no offense to the Benihana people, but if you go to Benihana their knife use is a gimmick. Do you know what I'm saying? So yes, a knife can be used as a gimmick and liquid nitrogen can be used as a gimmick and a knife can be used to cook and liquid nitrogen can be used. Well, I won't cook because it's cool, but you know what I'm saying? Right? Is that enough? Eliot?

Papin out tweets. Please also ban fire. It's very dangerous.

You know, he's right. It is extremely dangerous. I've been burned several times this year alone, you know, but anyway, so that goes into we have a question. Oh, I don't have the person Oh, from Paul. At American meltdown. He says I graduated from FCI back in oh seven. We didn't get to interact much. I was in the last class of the old four phase culinary tech paradigm and there was no culinary technology stuff. I had a question about what I was there but I didn't wasn't teaching the regular bubble bars I guess yet anyways. No, I did. Anyone ever. I had a question about liquid nitrogen I own and operate the American meltdown food truck in North Carolina. We serve gourmet melts and grilled cheeses. I like grilled cheese you like Gucci says you love right That's one of the few things and stuff actually I can I can legitimately say in the statute loves yourself a grilled cheese. Do you like,

first time? I've heard her say the word love on the show. I think

I know it. I know it is 1012. Is it because your mom didn't make Rocio? Yeah. Do you enjoy things on your grilled cheese? Or do you like, what kind of cheese Do you like? What's your air? Not Well, that's the other love. You have Swiss? What was it was the second one cheddar. Cheddar doesn't melt very well. You don't care. They really don't care. Do you? What do you think about American cheese? No. I don't like it. I like your patriotic data and a patriot. Nothing to do with patriotism. You know where American cheese was invented in England. And Switzerland. Maybe it wasn't Europe. Anyway. It was not here. It was invented actually. No, it was invented by the Swiss. It's been at the Swiss and stuff. You know, why? Is it fun to look it up? Right? Because the book the book, which I downloaded somewhere on my computer is processed cheese analogues. But I believe processed cheese was invented by the Swiss, which makes sense because of their love of freaking fondue. But look it up. Anyway. Back to the question. I had a question about liquid nitrogen Baobab, I wanted to bring on some liquid nitrogen for a play on frozen grilled cheese. I don't know how you'd freeze a grilled cheese though. But anyway. Well, I don't know. I mean, like, but in other words, if you freeze the grilled cheese, it's frozen blue cheese. I don't understand. But anyway, I've had some difficulty with equipment. I found the place to buy the liquid nitrogen, and the guys will let me carry it off in a styrofoam box. As far as dispensing it, do I need a tank? Where would I get a tank to hold ln I saw some one liter ones at McQueen labs.com. In my head, I have a tank with a hose and I would put something like olive oil into a bowl and then squirt in the liquid nitrogen and it would get the popcorn like frozen shapes which similar to the Dan Danny Garcia, the famous Spanish chef used to make frozen olive oil in various ways. But he actually did it exactly in the reverse right so always, or what I pour some little some liquid nitrogen into a bowl and pour the olive oil in. That is what typically you would do so in fact, I saw Danny Garcia wants to do the olive oil demo in a styrofoam box. And when he's doing his stuff when he's when you're freezing olive oil the trick is is that it breaks up into little pieces. Like almost like couscous so he if you sit in the ELN long enough, it makes this guy couscous like thing if you want like kind of foamy or denser things he used to emulsify different amounts of water in to get different textures and more water you add the more it hurts your face, though, because the water hurts a lot when you put it in cold frozen like that. Whereas the olive oil by itself doesn't have as high of a specific heat. So it can't actually damage you as badly. But anyway, he would put a olive oil in an ISI canister shaken up and vomit into the liquid nitrogen and the aeration would also make it less damaging on tongue provide interesting texture and get those popcorn like things. So that's how Danny Garcia used to do it. In fact, I did that demo once because we had a whole bunch of liquid nitrogen and people wanted to see it. I'm like, All right, I'm not going to pretend I'm ninja Garcia because I hate doing other people's demos. So I literally was like, I'm Danny Garcia, but not anyway. And so I did like because I'd seen him do his demos. So I did you know I did a lot a lot of those. I mean, not as well as he did. I'm not trying to say I was but anyway, I did that. So okay, so you don't if you're putting in a styrofoam box, there's not much point in putting it into into something mean Styrofoam boxes not so good. You got to be careful when you have a styrofoam box because they can crack and if they crack, they dump liquid nitrogen everywhere. So you want to make sure that if you do use a Styrofoam, it's like like something sturdy like a fish tub and that you have it in a cardboard with duct tape around it so that it doesn't break. You can pour it into coffee craft is the easiest way. Because you're not going to be that you're not going to be that efficient and storing it this way. Anyway, eventually you're going to want to go get like a 35 liter do or something like that. Okay, and do you ask do I need a tank? Will the ln just evaporate quick without one? Yes, that's the case it will just evaporate quicker. And you know, the problem is Styrofoam boxes, they also have a fairly large surface area. So unless you keep it kept all the time, you're going to lose a lot when you pull the thing off, you're gonna lose a lot. But if you're getting a cheap price on it, it's an okay way to start out just be careful that it can't slosh around because things can slosh out of those containers and then get liquid nitrogen all over everywhere. And if you're not being cautious, especially if you're in a food truck, never let it get in a situation where the liquid nitrogen is above the head of a customer and you're serving down to them with liquid nitrogen because then you could get liquid nitrogen and you could pour it like you know, potentially into their eyes or inside of a piece of their clothing where it could get trapped and cause severe burns. You also want to make sure you don't have large amounts of liquid nitrogen inside of your truck unless your truck is completely ventilated to the outside so that you have no possibility of what's the word I'm looking for. This fixation asphyxiation

mustaches like I don't know. Oh, and it was the British not Swiss for American cheese.

It was British. For processed cheese and general look up process cheese and melting salts in general. That's not American cheese. Oh wait. Well, clearly at least American cheese was invented by the Brits but processed cheese in general, I believe was invented by the Swiss keep little I

forgot 1911 by Walter Gerber in Switzerland. That's Wait, wait, wait. That's processed cheese. James L craft is the first who applied for a pen patent for the method in 1916. And then craft was the first to commercial commercially slice them keep them you know, sell them slice to 1950. So in the EU

in the US in the US the US Yeah, the Swiss. So Natasha, your precious Well, what do you think American cheese is Hello, it's processed cheese made with cheddar de. Hey, by the way, just so you know I've said this before on the show, but this is what I do with my kids, I give them a price and you want the first person calls and I'll send you $2 If you get this so what is going to be more likely to produce a better emulsified processed cheese product and aged cheese or a non aged cheese first coloring gets two bucks. I don't know how am I gonna get two bucks. Okay, Pay Pal, we'll pay pal you two bucks. Okay. Now, back on the thing. We are an enclosed space being inside the truck. But there are two huge ventilation hoods a service window and a large back door that can swing open. I feel that as enough airflow but I could be wrong. Thanks for your time and Response List. It could be enough airflow just make sure that there's no possibility that one of your workers is in there and it gets sealed. Like for instance, when you're driving, and if you're driving and they have a like a big tub of liquid nitrogen and you get hit, it could dump over and then the entire styro cooler of liquid nitrogen is on the floor of your truck and it's sealed and then you're shafted. Because you might have gotten knocked out and you can't open the window or something like that. So that anytime you have liquid nitrogen in a vehicle like that has to be away from you secure and all the windows have to be open. Right? That's what that's the rule we have. So we're always mustaches like I don't want to talk to you about it. We're gonna show what are you talking about? There's no one else that can talk to please. Okay. Tony, Tony herring writes in from the mixing bar in Brazil. Hey Dave Anastacia, Jack and Joe. Joe. I know I said Joel crazy because I'm gonna talk about later yeah. Salute from Brazil. Once again. This Tuesday, I've been invited to speak to a group of bartenders, media and industry people about the use of salt and drinks in Sao Paulo. They want to go to Sao Paulo. I don't like Portuguese, the language or the knowledge. But you don't like like European Portuguese or Brazilian Portuguese Portuguese, but see I like Brazilian Portuguese, but actual Portuguese makes no sense to me. It sounds like Russian Is that why you like it? Sounds all crazy to me. Like like Portuguese from Portugal sounds crazy to me and like Brazilian Portuguese sounds like Portuguese to me. Anyway, okay. The project is called mintus Bri hunters B hunters brilliant minds and is produced by the Brazilian cocktail site mixology news to promote the promote the exchange of ideas within our cocktail scene. My presentation is pretty much all set up. But we also do include any hint or pointer from the cooking issues team. I know from the episode you deal with Tony conigliaro that you use or Tony see as they say, can you see? Do you know that in America when you pronounce the ballplayers the dead famous Boston Red Sox ballplayers name that they literally even like I was talking to my 93 year old, my stepfather's father my second step, grandfather, whatever. You know, who's Italian Addonizio right from Boston, and an ETL. Anyway, so he he even says conigliaro conigliaro, that's what the Boston knights call them. Anyway, whatever Simon's gonna start calling Tony Tony conigliaro. What do you think I like that Tony conigliaro Anyway, that you use salt in a few drinks a booger index. In fact, we use them in most drinks and book or index, anything that has any form of fruit in it really coffee, chocolate, anything like that has salt in it sub threshold sub threshold, but we'd love to hear more of your experiences with it, I'm going to use the drink. The search for delicious to exemplify how salt can help bitterness and drinks. Participants will get a glass containing China and put demand as an orange bitters and will gradually add lemon juice and salt tincture. The salt tincture is going to be at 100 mils of water and 15 grams of salt which is roughly what we do right to see how it changes over time tasting and drink at each step. I noticed a bold cocktail, but it's pretty impressive. A few drops of salt and as it can really change this drink. The workshop is based on the article I wrote for mixology news a while ago. Of course, it's in Portuguese, so it's useless to me because I hate google translator. I'm sorry. Sorry, Tony. I can't stand the Google for another day like Google is awful. It's always wrong. always wrong. Any pointers, ideas about the use of salt and drinks and its effects appreciated. I'm sure to mention a lot about you guys in Seminar. Cheers, Tony. Okay, so first of all, I was not aware of this word. But here's my favorite new title in the world. Maybe this is what you should become instead of heir apparent. Maybe you should be chemosensory psycho physicists think it's a real? It's real. Yeah,

I know. People earn that.

You think? You think that's like an earned title? You can't just like it's like it's like everyone says I'm an architect. Did you go to architecture school? Did you pass the test? You know what I mean? It's like so you think it's like that you have to actually pass a test to be a chemosensory psychophysics this is got the word psycho in it. Yeah. Well, you can stick with that. But psychosynthesis Like what it is just psycho physicist and not chemosensory psycho physicists. Can you be that? Sure. Okay. Anyway, so like very, very clearly. The people who are the top of their game on this are pa Breslin, and GK Beauchamp and they work for mono out of Philadelphia and they've written all A lot of the good articles on salt and bitterness and some of the good ones you might want to look at a lot of their like classic work was done in the late 90s and so you want to might want to look up salt enhances flavor by suppressing bitterness. And another good one is salt taste which is a chapter in a book that one came out in 2008 and that's a good way it's good because it's a it's what's called it's a review or review section anyway, so the interesting thing is and i By the way, when I was researching this to get some more information, I learned some extremely interesting things so everybody knows that and I guess everybody doesn't know this. If you present something that smells sweet with something that it makes everything taste sweeter so like in other words, if I give you banana aroma and sugar, it tastes sweeter than if I just gave you a banana aroma alone. Does that make sense? And if I add certain things, but if I asked you to evaluate and then things have different synergy So typically if you add salt, salt masks bitterness, so like if you add salt to it bitterness level is reduced, typically if you but what's crazy is that if I asked you to rate the very recent scholarship that that when you just have someone rate a single thing like sweetness that you get all makes sense but if you actually say for instance in sweet if you're going to do a sour and salt together if you ask someone to rate the house and we just tossed a pizza on someone's chest It was awesome. Sweet. You see that? Yeah, we watched the kind of like dining room here and there was a there was a pizza chest toss anyway, on cashmere Yeah, grease on cashmere. That's a good band anyone out there? You're welcome. Grease on cashmere. That sounds like remember that band lubricated goat? No. Yeah. Was it was lubricated goat the one who's had the album circumcised peanut looked that up so with a search that Yeah, see, see see whose album was circumcised peanut I think it might have been lubricated goat great bad names family show. Okay. So back to my saying so but if you actually tell someone Okay, now rate salt and, and and sour separately. They can, they can read it. But anyway, in general, salt is extremely complicated. So the ways that the wave affects your taste, so the way it affects your taste is is very dependent on concentration. So when you add salt, for instance, some people add salt to coffee when you're adding salt to things in low concentrations use so Okay, look, I get so good. So like all over myself, and my head is going like a million miles a minute, I can't I gotta slow down, slow down slow down ahead. Okay, if you take a bitter and a bitter component, and let's say a sweet component, and you have them together, the in a drink, the bitter component, and the sweet component will mutually suppress each other. Does that make sense? Right, so it'll taste both less sweet and less bitter. But if you add salt to that, right, even fairly small amounts of salt to that mixture, what ends up happening is the salt suppresses the bitterness, but also undoes the undoes the suppression that the bitterness did to the sweetness. So it tastes even sweeter. So it tastes like the bitterness is going down and the sweetness is going up even though actually what's happening is your unmasking the the your unmasking the bitters, no longer masking of the sweetness. And this is like really super interesting work that like Beauchamp and Breslin did out of mono and like everyone should, everyone should kind of kind of read that but just in in very kind of round terms. In the article salt enhances the flavor by suppressing bitterness. He says our data shows that in addition to adding desired saltiness to foods salt potentiate flavor through the selective suppression of bitterness, and perhaps other undesirable flavors, and the release from suppression of palatable flavors such as sweetness, the desire for NaCl and other salts and foods as diverse as often bitter vegetables. oily foods and meats may be due in part to their ability to suppress unpleasant flavors. This may explain why it is difficult to make low sodium foods acceptable. That's a quote from from that article. Another interesting thing that Beauchamp in his in his what's that thing called a review article gives a really interesting example that you can smack your friends across the face with sub sub threshold salt, right? And I've said this a million times on the air, but I've never said it so succinctly. And that's why these are the smart guys. This is in salt taste. So Natasha, does bread tastes like the average loaf of bread. Does it taste salty? No, no, it doesn't. Right. So I would call that sub threshold salt. Right. And so, but when you get Tuscan bread at what tastes good, it sucks. Everyone knows it sucks. It is being ornery. Susskind bread has no salt and it sucks. And so that shows you kind of the incredible rounding effect that salt can have on something even though it's below a threshold and that in fact is the exactly thing with both Shop says he says I think it's a he I don't know maybe woman she he I don't know that consider again bread and bread products are sold in these makeup the single largest source of sodium consumed in the US diet I did not know that. I did not know that yet we typically do not perceive bread as salty bread without salt taste insipid or bad like Tuscan bread does. That's emphasis is mine. When salt is added, the flavor is enhanced without making the bread taste salty. The salt when added to food must have functions other than adding saltiness, and then goes on to explain what they are. Wow, what. What this means is they can't see you got to see what's going on if you're going to make a comment really, like whacked out customers that just left right. Well, first of all, it's raining cats and dogs here. It's like the day you'd never need sunglasses in Bushwick and the three of the group are wearing sunglasses. Yeah. And like, you know, major, like, you know, leaning back. And you know, I had to actually use this interesting I had to use the women's bathroom today before the show. And by the way, the Roberta's people apparently love women a lot more than they love men because bathroom is you've been to the men's bathroom. Yeah, men's bathroom hellhole but not just because it's filthy because men are filthy. Just it's like laid out like I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. So you know, your legs are smashing into this sink. I don't care. You know, so the door is going to clock you in the head if you know who cares. You're dude, you don't I mean, the women's like you know, you could turn around you know, you can wash your hands this big. It's not like you know, like half a millimeter off of the and what what but anyway so the reason I went into the women's bathroom I was given specific okay, because apparently a couple have gone in there and they were finishing up last night's festivities Whoa, yeah. Yeah. So it's not it's not that they're like that in the morning it's still nighttime for them.

We'll see when indeed Jesus isn't around all hell breaks

Boom. That's a good one. Jesus, that's good business. All right, and to just to break it down the line for you for example, this is a quote again from from these guys for example sub threshold salt levels, increased perceived sweetness and decreased perceived acidity whereas sub threshold sugar concentrations make the food taste less salty than it actually is. And in very weak concentration salt might actually enhance the flavor of acids because it's not linear changes whether it's sub threshold super threshold and how much so the answer is there is no answer like that Annastacia loves there's no it's Oh, you want to go to our first commercial break

let's do it that for me yeah shoes.

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Whoo reverb. We have a caller Yeah.

Yeah, caller you're on call earlier.

Yeah. Hey, Mark Jensen here down in Lexington, Kentucky. Nice. Hey, man, I've been listening to you guys and stuff here, Jack. Joe. It's been man a dream but get all this information over the radio. Fantastic.

Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening. What do you got for us? All right,

this is apropos because I'm also a food truck owner. And this also can kind of had something to do with Portuguese cooking. So here we go. I'm doing a Macau Style Pork chop bun tomorrow for a gig. And of course I've had some kind of Portuguese influence in Chinese influence, but my big question is, I'm going to coat this in a starch and then deep fry after a marinate the pork chop, after marinated pork chop on starches, what you think, lends to a more crispy crust if I'm just really powder coating it not going to do a batter.

Yeah, I mean, you know, it's everyone has their own feeling. First of all, you're going to you said you're going to SUV eat it and then like, bring it they're going to be thin enough that you're just gonna fry from cold after they're after their low temps. Is that what you said? You're gonna Exactly Okay, exactly. I mean, I think there's a couple of things going to look everyone has their own view about kind of what's going on. But the issue with any kind of skim coat is that you're, you're, unless it's dry, it's hard to get like a real crunchy surface on it unless, you know, I need to do more research on it I've learned here at Roberta is they do a chicken that's a variant of a kind of a well known restaurant that was closed at the time but it's open again called pies and thighs and they literally take it out of their brine, throw it into flour, and then fry it so apparently like everything I learned because when I learned it was you know, you'd make a pellicle you dry it real real set to get adhesion. And then you do flour liquid flour fry, which is not what you're looking to do. But these guys go directly into the starch from Wet where you're going to go into the starch from wet or no

I see my patting it dry at least Yeah, right. But not a multiple coat. I'm keeping it thin and as lean toward a corn flour keeping it in the kind of Chinese tradition but that corn exactly is old world

right? I mean, you know, I've done I've done rice starch batters and they're, they're you know, they have that a certain flavor and in fact some people even if would put, you know, you can't in your application but they put some you know cow in there some some basic stuff in there to alter it or baking soda even. But, you know, Neil's Noren always used to use water chestnut flour, and he swore by water chestnut flour, not chestnut flour, the storeroom used to make that mistake all the time water chestnut flour. And it was it was good but that was what he always used to swear by. You know, and I don't know which one of the countries over there that he was working in where he picked it up I don't know whether he picked that up in China I don't know if he picked it up in Singapore, I don't know where he picked it up. But that was that was his go to for when we when we used to do the whole fish the whole striped bass and he wanted and we would pull it out and we would only let it dry off for a second he would always dust it in water chestnut flour and have to admit it was better in my memory than when we just use plain wheat flour or any of the other kind of normal normal starches, you might want to look at a modified starch like crisp coat or something like that and it's not going to be too expensive in the in the quantities that you're using probably least email unless you're gonna do it forever. I think you can get that stuff from modernist pantry. But you know that stuff it you know, it's designed to form a kind of a moisture barrier so that you know, Crisco hence its name Chris cope, and it can be added also to other starches. So you don't need to use exclusively that in fact, in industrial usage, they use it only at around I think around 10% usage ratio versus other starch, but it definitely is built to increase adhesion and Christmas in the in the in the coding so you might want to look into something like that

interesting. Do you think that Crisco is something that is put into say wonder

wonder You know, I've also never done a lot of testing with frying with wonder wonder is just like it's it's agglomerated so that it dissolves you know, easily and there are some people who swear by Wondra coatings in their in their frame but I use it only once or twice and tests and I you know, my feeling was that I had a weird taste but it could have been something else I really didn't give it enough of a test to to say that I love it or I don't and for some reason I never got in the habit of keeping wander around for gravies because I you know I just right it's not necessary in by the way I'm not like it needs to be necessary kind of a guy it's just I just never bothered it never bothered becoming a part of my my pantry but there are people who swear by it. Have you ever tried Have you ever tried it or do you like it

hello oh I'm so hear me No, I'm not a wonder guy either. Just says something that's down here in the south warmth. And I was wondering since you mentioned Chris coat that maybe that was part of its profile.

Yeah, no, no, it's just I mean, in other words like what they do to certain starches, if you look at the natural national starch, which is the starch company that I like to go to a lot they you know, they have a lot of agglomerative starch products for instance, like it wonder is the is the starch equivalent of ultra spurs versus Ultra Tex. So you No, it's pre hydrated. The well those are pre hydrate Ultras Burson Ultra tech. So I don't really know how one was done but the ones agglomerated so that it dissolves easily and doesn't clump up. And the other ones a pain in the butt.

Gotcha. Well, I may check into that water chestnut flour, who's got some good Asian markets here and I might be able to source that.

Yeah, I'm just doing off the top of my head. So you should learn when you do some research on it. Let us know what happens. Send us a tweet or something. Excellent.

I shall, man. Thank you, everybody. Appreciate it.

Alrighty, good luck. Why is my pet shut down? It's great. Hate it. Okay. Oh, by the way, we got a question. We, Jack we're okay. Oh, there we go. We got another caller. Caller you're on the air.

You had a couple questions about pressure cooker stock. And then what about sweet potato fries? If I'm not taking up too much time, that's gonna do it. Okay, so when I make pressure cooker stock, which you got me started on and I'm having outstanding results with if I just don't open the lid on Hakuna Cohn do it dramatic. After the last extraction, however many I'm doing? Is it sealed enough to just be canned and like, room temperature stable for a day or two? All

right, that's an excellent question. Excellent, excellent question. And okay, so if you were to, if you were to, when you bring it up to pressure, like just do a couple of vent to get all the extra air out and you've done it a couple of times, I would say I would, I would be okay with it. I've not not done the studies because if you look at actual pressure canning, they're very, very clear that you need to purge the entire thing from with air, and then have it be full steam before you start your timing on it for being canned. But I think the reason they're doing that is because they're they're cooking it for a bare minimum amount of time and they don't want air trapped in next to the food particles are going to slow heat transmission and therefore going to slow the rate of cooking. I think that if you're doing a stock for long enough that it's probably not an issue and at the outside and all the air and everything that's in that headspace are are going to get fully you know, fully, you know, pressure cooked. Now, if you're going to re heat the stock, remember the stock is not like it's not really cannibal straight meal. It is I mean, if you if you do it long enough, if you follow the procedure as it should be long story short, I don't know whether I can feasibly recommend it to you, but I do it.

So it's it's not FDA approved, but should probably work.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I actually do that because like a lot of times, you know what will happen is and you know, like Harold McGee and Ruhlman got into like a little bit of a thing about Ruhlman saying he just leaves regular stocks out and then just reheat them, which is what everyone used to do in the old days, you know, the keep a soup going for a whole week. And I did that during the blackout here when we had Hurricane Sandy. But but you know, the many times I will have the pressure cooker going and I don't want to you know, it's late at night, it's late at night, I want to go to bed, I've made dinner and now I'm making a stock with the bones I had leftover from the prep out at dinner. And I'll leave it overnight and then put it in the fridge in the morning. And I don't really feel bad about it.

Because I'm, well, I want to do exactly what you just described. And also on Thanksgiving. I mean, I'm just running out of space for everything. And if I could just run the last pressure cooker with the turkey stock and set it in the garage and forget about it though I needed again. I mean, that's that's just very helpful.

Yeah, I would not leave it forever. It's I wouldn't consider it. Yeah,

I'm talking 24 or 48 hours max just enough to get you know, get it done and out of the way if I'm getting ready for a big family deal.

Yeah, and I'd say reheat it to

Oh yeah, well, every heating is pretty much the same with anything I would do with it would be going in something hot. Like I make great gravy with a fairly dark butter and flour. Whoo. And you know that when the stock gets that gravy, it's when a stock gets that loses about 350 degrees or something ridiculous. Right? Right. Right. And then you boil it from there. So I mean, so reheating is a part of the program. Yeah,

I mean, I mean most things that are gonna develop would be heat labile anyway if you're going to reheat them I mean again like I just feel very hesitant to say it's okay on the air and yet I do do it.

Okay, well that's that's sometimes maybe there's a good as you get. Yeah.

Second question. You said

a second second stock question. I've been doing some double and even one triple extraction which just came out fantastic. Based on method you described a month or two ago where you you know just keep pulling, you know, you you and the pressure cooker. Let the pressure come down. Take one batch of bones out but the next batch of bones in running the game without ever cooling it off. How many times can you do that before was something weird happens?

You say no, no, no, I've never done more than three. i But I figured there's got to be a diminishing marginal return. I think, you know, it's been years since I, it's been years since I've done side by sides on that are like, kept a little back and tasted it. But I bet you that you're not getting much after about about two or 3333 on chicken bones probably three. But mean, it really makes a fantastic stock doesn't it mean that triple stock is crazy.

I made? I did a triple extraction among some beef bones for fo here a while back. And it was just amazing.

Yeah, I mean, that's that is like, you know, people, no one makes any more because you know, if you were actually going to do it, it's it's a it's would be expensive in a restaurant setting and be it would take forever if you were doing it in kind of a standard way. But you can do it so quick. And just the depth of flavor on that stuff. Nuts, right?

Oh, it's I mean, it's just unbelievable. And also, it's advantageous for me that the stronger I can make it. I can make soup and dilute and dilute it back out a little bit. So it improves my storage efficiency since my freezer is permanently stuffed.