Hello, everybody, and welcome to a brand new series on heritage radio network called the culinary call sheet where we give a peek into the back kitchen of culinary media. I'm your host, April Jones,

and I'm your co host, Darren bresnitz. Part of why we started the show was to offer an unofficial mentorship for anyone who's interested in learning about all aspects of food and video, whether that's TV, social media online, or just something you want to do for fun.

Absolutely what was once niche or a little silly, as I'm sure you remember, Darren, when we started out, this man has now become such a massive playing field for so many creatives using food as the medium.

It's something that has driven us professionally and personally, for so many years. What excites me the most about this show is that we're going to sit down with some of the industry leaders to hear how they made it and what drew them into this industry.

With 20 years in the culinary production game ourselves. We're hoping we can give through these conversations an insider's view into personal stories from the field, as well as an in depth behind the scenes look into some of the most popular food programming. In today's evolving culinary media landscape.

We'll be covering everything from how to style your food, to how to license IP, to developing your own ideas, and some tips from the masters of how to host your own show.

Yeah, it's a little bit of conversation, how to and how do you do the things that you do in color media, which I'm so excited about? I love so many of the guests that are coming on this season. We have talent from Food Network from Vice media eater refinery 29,

we've met some of the best people in the world both in front of and behind the camera. And we're bringing them all together to share their stories, their delicious adventure and their unique journey into this crazy world.

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Today's program has been brought to you by the International Culinary Center, offering courses that range from classic French techniques and culinary pastry and bread baking to Italian studies to management from culinary technology to food writing from cake making to wine tasting. For more information visit international culinary center.com. broadcasting live from Bushwick, Brooklyn, you're listening to heritage Radio network.org.

Hello, and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave on your host of cooking issues coming to you live every tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 at the Heritage radio network in the back of Roberta's pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Jack decided not to show up today because, well, we had the fundraiser over the weekend. And now he's just too big for us. Right, Joe? Yeah, he's doing presidential things right now. I'm guessing. Yeah, he's just you know, he's smoking, you know, tobacco rolls and $100 bills and all kinds of crazy stuff over there in the heritage radio headquarters. But thankfully, Joe is with us. And as always, Natasha hammer Lopez, how you doing? Good. Yeah, I apologize that we were not able to do the live cooking issues with Harold McGee over at the Harvard because we just couldn't do it. We had to. I mean, that's all there was to it. We couldn't do it. We were prepping out the class started as the show would have been ending. And that would have been, that would have been a big poop show. Had we done that? Right? True. True. So speaking of McGee, Harold McGee, and I will be in London and we're going to go through the brogdale in Spanish and when it started and I went like a year and a half ago, maybe yeah, was two years ago. Two years ago, two years ago, and it is me well okay, look, okay, look, alright, fine. Geneva, New York is where all of our when I say our I mean, the good old US of A where all of our apples are stored. And the way you store an apple is by planting trees, right? So they don't just like literally store. I mean, they also store seeds in liquid nitrogen like sperm banks. But a lot of people don't really believe in that because they think that the seeds might mutate over time, etc. Blah, blah, blah. People like to own the freakin trees. Right? Then also, if you have the trees, you can see how they respond to various things. And the reason that our tax money goes to it isn't because people, the people who decide the tax money stuff, think that you know, we should have wide variety of delicious apples, they're more worried that some crazy Apple disease is going to come through and kill every Apple, except that one crazy variety that they saved, right? At least that's the original Genesis. The reason there's money behind this project. And so all of our apples are in Geneva. And Geneva New York has the greatest collection of apples anywhere in the world, but by brogdale in Faversham in Kent, England an hour outside of London is where they have the largest culinary Apple collection. So the way they get around this is, is there's a crazy guy feel forced line who used to go to Kazakhstan, which is where apples come from. And he would gather all kinds of wild apples, I don't know how the hell they smuggle the seeds back into the US or whether it was some crazy quarantine situation or whatever. Because they said huge genetic diversity of different apple varieties as well as other fruits actually, in this thing called the Tian Shan fruit forest, which stretches from China to Kazakhstan. And it's a huge kind of apparently incredibly beautiful, awesome place and one of the places on earth actually that I really want to go anyway. So he went there and just collected a bajillion different kinds of wild, you know, malice Apple species, and planted them in at Cornell, up in Geneva. And it's it just so that obliterated the broad Dale's collection in terms of sheer numbers, but brogdale has the culinary Apple collection to beat in the world. However, however, I'm extremely partial to the flavor of apples as grown in upstate New York. So we've been to the Apple collection, but when we went to the Bronco collection in the stash tonight, I was sidelined by the fact that they also have an incredibly awesome collection of pairs. And actually, you know, what we missed last time is a petitioner should still be a couple plums on the trees. See, here's what, but it's not season so they can have all the nuts. In fact, we're gonna miss the nut festival. mean, it'll be the nut festival with Harold and I there, but we're gonna miss the official nut festival by a couple of days. The here's what's amazing about the brogdale and why anyone that lives anywhere near London, and doesn't or hasn't been to the brogdale a bunch of times, honestly should be incredibly ashamed of themselves. They should just be you know, you should be I don't know, you should wear a hair shirt and a dunce cap and go into the corner. And just you know, beat yourself with sticks out of out of you know, anguish that you've missed this huge portion of your life so close to this amazing resource and you haven't gone yet say it's accurate. They could join you again. I don't know. I don't know exactly what to say. McGee and I Well, first of all, so the brogdale Unlike us where our pairs are in Corvallis, Oregon, and our berries are in Corvallis, Oregon. And we have our apples in Geneva, New York and our collections of germ plasm are spread all over the all over the country. The English basically can only grow stuff and can't Come on No offense, but you can take offense to the one anyway. So their entire collection of stuff is at this one place. So it's kind of one stop shopping for everything small fruits and you know the English they know gooseberries, like the nobody else they have like the gooseberry collection but not the time of year anyway. apples, pears, nuts, plums, cherries, Qantas cherries, no. Anyways, so my point is, is that I'm going to temperate Fruit Paradise on a Friday. Like my plan, my plane lands, muggy. And I mean, he's coming from California and coming from New York, we're meeting at Heathrow and taking a train directly to favish. And we're gonna I'm gonna throw away I'm not even gonna wear clothes. I'm just gonna dress myself and fruit. And then take that fruit because we're going to our good buddy, Tony conigliaro, and Rheas wedding. Congratulations to them. You know, one of my favorite bartenders in the whole world. Yeah, yep, yep. Okay. Call in your questions live to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128 Joe, who's bringing the show to us today. That would be the International, the International Culinary Center. I'm doing actually a demo with them. 20 coming to that thing are now going today. I'm gonna go there today talk to them, but I don't think I'm gonna be there. We're doing a demo for Pepsi. Pepsi. Pepsi Cola, right. Pepsi. Anyway. Okay, questions. Hey, Dave, Mr. Atia, Jack and Joe, although Jack doesn't care about your question, Ron, because he's not here to listen to it. I'm just kidding. I'm just messenger. Several shows back we pop we pops. You know, we pop super hot. Our intern and the one of the current founders and designers I'm assuming of the NAMA co emergent circulator. Several shows back we put up called to talk to you about the Nanakuli number one AMCO COVID, COO, coo coo. Okay, the emerging circulator designed for use in the home kitchen. Needless to say, I was extremely excited at the prospect of having an affordable low temp cooking solution out in the market. Recently, I was on the PolyScience website and found out that they now offer also offer a home version called the creative series. And it's called like, yeah, it's like all like suevey. And there's a Sufi creative and the Sydney professional. And then there's the old metal one. So it's kind of confusing, but you go on the website and you look at I think it's live on the website. I haven't seen one in real life anyhow. So the Nomicon will be $140 cheaper than the suevey Creative I'm probably science, the heat or the NAMA who's going to have less wattage? 750 versus 1100. Otherwise, what do you think Phillips is 1000 Watts, the heater itself is 1000. I don't think it's 1100. But anyway, whatever. But the pump is more powerful in the Nano Q 10 liters per minute versus six liters per minute. Now who claims that can actually get water to 100 degrees C while the creative goes to 99 degrees? C? I mean, that's a meaningless stat though. I mean, I wouldn't even pay attention to that. It's a meaningless stat. You know, I'm saying, like, you know, don't worry about that. You're not going to want to put these into anything other than water anyway. So the old metal ones are stainless steel. Let me finish the question first, before I go crazy, okay. The rest of the specs, as far as I can tell are about the same. Not sure if you had a chance to play with either, perhaps an unlucky prototype, but I'm hoping you can give us your honest opinion on which one you would get. I'm not planning on getting one until the holidays. So the fact that the nominee who isn't actually out yet will not affect my purchasing decision. Also, I'm currently a student at the ICC. And I hear you will be teaching a few classes this month. Is that true? I'm in level six, which is the last level it's the level that the students cook in the restaurant so at the school, there's there's six levels, the last two levels cooking the restaurant. So the first two you're kind of learning stuff. The third one more learning stuff. Fourth one, you're doing family meal for the whole school and five and 16 in the restaurant. Okay, if you're around, I'll be sure to say hi, I'll be the guinea Chinese guy with the sweaty palms. Thanks love the show Ron fan. So Ron, obviously not if you have sweaty palms, not a good trumpet worker shouldn't work with chocolate. Don't go into pastry, my friend. I mean, I guess you could but I mean, if you're sweaty palms can be difficult working with truffle and pastry. Greg, mean, there are certain people who are known things, certain people have warmer palms, and they have very difficult time with things like chocolates, just a known fact. Anyway. Okay, before I even get into this, look, we pop is a friend of mine, I love myself, we pop and Philip Preston is a friend of mine. And I've known him for many, many years. And he's been very supportive. So it's very hard for me to come out, you know, I can't almost can't come down with any sort of recommendation on one versus the other. Because it's just it would be crazy for me. You know what I'm saying? What do you think so I mean, that's kind of like your Philip Preston has been, but we're gonna get one in December. He's the Philip the new one he pop is sending us an AAMCO. In December. Yes. All right. I haven't touched. I haven't touched the new creative series yet. But I sent a note over to Philip and I was like, Philip, what should I know about the creative system, as opposed to the other one? And his response was, is that this new one, the 499. One is designed to have a good control a very good temperature control, just like the other one. Have it be quiet, right? So I guess it's quieter for a home kind of situation. So the pumps not as loud. Also not as not as fast, right? Less, it's a less demanding use, right? Because it's not meant to run all day every day like ours do. Which isn't to say you can't do a 72 hour cook. But you know, the way these things are treated in professional kitchens is crazy. They're running 20, almost 24/7 Sometimes,

you know, all the time. So the current one's not designed to run all day, every day. It's got a lower cost, you know, 499? So I don't really know actually what the nominee who is coming in? Is it really $170? Cheaper? Is it really $320? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, it's hard to say. Also, you never know if it's going to be sold at William Sonoma what waves know what letters of retail price and then we need to know who's going to give you a deal or something like that. So it's very hard to say what the price is going to be the the new PolyScience is going to have the same safe safety system as the old one did, plus a float, which I never was a big fan of float, the float that people like so the float is basically in there. So in case your water runs low, the float drops and turns off the circulator, I've never been a giant fan of floats, because it just seems like it's another thing that can fail. As opposed to having the strap on there's, there's there's there's a there's a strap on thermometer, you know, a temperature sensor on the heating element itself such that it goes over tamp, it will shut the equipment off. So I guess Philip, I guess if people wanted to float plus that safety system, but so he put it in, and it's gonna it has a smaller pump than the than the $800 one. So it's going to have a reduced capacity on the note of capacity. By the way. Capacity is one of those things that you can't really ever listen to what anybody says unless they're extremely specific about what they mean by capacity. So your capacity is going to be limited by the wattage, there's two things that limit your capacity one is your ability to circulate water. That is rarely the limit, except for in very large tanks or in viscous fluids like oils, which I wouldn't necessarily be circulating with these guys anyway. So the pump output is not usually the limit on your capacity. Usually the limit on your capacity is the wattage that said also when you're judging capacity, the question is not how many liters of liquid it's how many liters of liquid press plus product at what temperature in a vessel with what kind of insulation? So there's there's so many there's so many variables, but the physics are what the physics are and you can figure out how much wattage roughly wattage you need with some back of the envelope calculations For me the main the main thing is when I was talking to we pop, the new circulator, and the NAMA coup is a you know, it has a smaller capacity and it's designed to have a smaller capacity 750 watts. And their feeling is, is that's enough wattage to get away with most of the things that you're going to want to do in your house. But they opted to have a more powerful pump, whereas Philip was like, I don't care about the pump. But I want to keep the same waters because I don't actually know why. Why the NAMA coup, why they took the wattage down to 750? We Bob told me once, but I can't remember what what his explanation was. Because not I mean, it could have been fitting it into the package, because it's a very thin stick package the number who else was very small, right? Yeah, we haven't played with it yet. We small is good, because small means it takes up less space in your bath. Anytime you can take up less space in your bath, it's probably a good thing. Just because that space, you can't be cooking products. And so that might be an advantage for the nominee. But really, I hesitate to make any recommendations until I played with him play with both of them. I will say this, it is an extremely exciting time to be a cook, because now almost anyone, you know, look, it's still expensive, you know, even if it's $350 it's not like I'm gonna go out, you know, you know, you're gonna go out and buy like buying like their potato chips or pretzels. But it's it's in the realm of things that many, many people buy. I think it's a huge, there's a huge price difference between 800 bucks and 400 bucks or 350 bucks. Right? It's big difference. I mean, Stasha might actually consider purchasing one instead of other. Yes, I said you might consider purchasing one. Yes. Yeah, we'll leave it at that. We'll leave it. We'll just we'll just leave it right there. Yeah. Okay. All right. That's pretty much. That's all there is to say about that. Yeah. All right. When we get it, we will tell when we get it. When we get it, we will tell the pros and cons of each one. If you know me. My, one of the main problems is, is I'm going to find it difficult to lie so bright. I mean, like, it's, you know, it's I mean, I can lie about many things, but not about recommending equipment. It's a weird thing. And oh, and I know, I'm not teaching a class this week. As far as I know, I'm doing you're doing next week. Sweet intensive. Last week in September. He said next week, no, two weeks from it. So I will be in a little bit. It might close the class fall. I don't know. I don't know if you want to come here, spout off some crazy stuff. Without actually it's actually the best course that we've ever taught. I mean, like not not a good course. For people who want to learn low temperature and suevey I'll put it this way. I'm proud of what we do in the course because we can we can do things that are very difficult for you to do in either a home or a restaurant kitchen just for time and space reasons. Anyway, so I guess we're teaching that in a couple of weeks last week of September, so that's why I'll be in there Ron. I'll be in tomorrow but I'll be dealing with the Pepsi people. Okay, take the first one. Yeah, so any books what books anyway? coming right back with cooking issues?

The International Culinary Center is a proud sponsor of the Heritage Radio network.org. The ICC with locations in New York in California provide cutting edge education to future chefs, restaurant tours and wine professionals. We're proud to claim Dan Barber, Bobby Flay and David Chang among our honored alumni. This is Dorothy can Hamilton from Chef story, check out our ICC website and international culinary center.com.

And welcome back. Okay, we have a question in from Paul, who says, for ethical dietary reasons I've been baking croissant with margarine they turn out very nice. But I'm wondering if I can get something closer to authentic if I adjust the fat in the quote unquote because not butter butter block. The two main problems I think I face is that one as far as I can tell it's impossible to get unsalted margarine. And to I'm guessing margin, I am guessing margarine has a higher water content compared to butter. secondary issues could include altered melting point issues with saturated fat or trans fat content, etc. I'm wondering if it might be possible to approximate something closer to unsalted butter in water content and reduce salt levels by making a mixture of margarine and vegetable shortening, or possibly trying to match the water content by evaporating moisture from margarine, but likely increasing the salt levels on a per volume level. If it matters, the dough is relatively wet, moderately enriched with a small amount of fat and some sugar given a very quick mix with low gluten development, but then spends 12 plus hours in the fridge for rise and develop gluten flavor. Any thoughts? Thanks, Paul. Okay, so yeah, here's the thing. First of all, you know, you have to be making sure anyway, that you're using a margarine that has. If you don't want the butter, I'm assuming you don't want assuming you went vegan, right? That's the assumption. Right? And so you know, there and therefore I'm sure you're aware of the fact that many margarines contain milk, actual milk in for flavor in it, no products in it for flavor. Some are artificially butter flavored, and I'm sure you can get just a plastic fat without the flavoring but right or wrong, right? Yeah. Okay, so here's the thing. I did some preliminary poking around. It's been a long time since I've researched margarine. Because I do eat dairy. And so I'm a margarine. I'm a hater, right? Major. But the key thing. So margarine is I guess, can have different different water levels. And in particular, the key thing about a margarine. So butter is what butter is, right? It's but it's butter fat right from cream. And the recipes that we have are written around the properties of butter. So butter is actually less than ideal for certain things. For instance, if you're going to do if you're going to do puff paste, and you have to keep the dough temperatures relatively proper, otherwise, the butter gets too high relative to the dough, right? Because butter isn't necessarily the best, actual physical form for everything you're going to do. So when when you make a margarine, you get to choose a lot of the exact properties that make it important for it. So there's there's table margins, right. And those are meant to spread mostly like butter. And the main characteristic that you're looking at other than like the nowadays are much better at it like margarine used to taste really Christ awful because they couldn't deodorize it properly and just tasted of awfulness, because the way you make margarine is you press like any old crud mean less if specified, but you press any old crud and you extract oil from you extract oil from things like seeds, soybeans, whatever, usually, with some crazy solvent, you know, some sort of like, like petroleum fraction, which you then get rid of, you're then left with oil plus gum and sludge and oil breakdown products, which are one of the things they can do with. So if there's too many free fatty acids in there, they add lye to it, and that turns into soap and then they wash the soap away. So there's and by the way, none of this I'm against not saying I'm against that I'm definitely pro, you know, that kind of a technique. So then they, they wash away all the impurities, and then they usually deodorize it, where they're gonna make margin and they sometimes do the do to deodorisation step at the end. So then you're left with these raw inputs that have various different fatty acid profiles. And then they hydrogenate them to different levels and different amounts in different ways to obtain different properties of fat and the most important property of fat other than the taste of it is and and how it crystallizes how a particular fat crystallizes, because that really affects its properties quite severely. But the you know, the other really important thing is called the SFI, which is the what does it actually stand for? G's solid fractions, index sneakers, solids, anyway, so what it is, is it's it's a chart, and you can see it, and it's how much of a given fat is liquid at any given temperature, because the fats are not one unitary type of thing. They don't have a definite melting point, right. That's why butter gets softer. As it gets warmer. It doesn't just instantly melt. It gets soft. It goes from hard to soft to melted, because there's a range of different compounds in there that have different melting points. And so the there's the where that curve, the melting curve is and then there's the slope of that curve determines Oh, Over what temperature is fat is, is plastic is workable. So the good news about margarines is that they can choose that exact profile for baking. And the profiles they choose for baking is different depending on the application that you're going to use. So then they make ones called Baker's margarine and that are specifically designed to not be too hard. So they don't rip through layers of your of your product, but also not to melt at all until you are baking with them. So you know, and there's different ones depending on exactly how the dough is supposed to work. So you know, in the very industrial scale, they'll have a different one for a puff pastry than they will for a Danish or for croissant, because they work slightly differently. So because a lot depends on you, the idea being not to tear the dough when you're when you're rolling it out and what you're looking for. But the most important thing with those margins is that they not melt out into the dough and cause adhesion to the layers to themselves before they're baked out. Like that's the key thing. So there's that in conjunction with the not ripping on water content. I wasn't able to find the Acme so Oh, so So I looked this morning, trying to find anyone that sold these varieties of margins to the public. Like I looked on Amazon for Baker's margarine, I couldn't find Chet Baker, the musician had a song called margarine, and I was able to find that you can download that for 99 cents. But it wasn't able to find less than 50 pounds of baker's margarine and no one that kind of sold to you know, just to normally to us. So if anyone out there knows a source of baker's margarine, I'd appreciate it. And so if you and they're technically highly superior products, they just you know, they also add a lot of other stuff like, like oils and whatnot. Sorry, like butter, fake butter flavor and whatnot. Now, as for your question, I wasn't able to find the optimum water content for the margin but and there's there's a question as to what the optimum water content is in a deal like this because after all, it's the water vaporizing, you know, and in the thing as it melts, that is causing the expansion to break the different flaking sections of the dough apart. In addition to alien croissant, obviously, it's also living. So yes, and I know I've known for years that people want and they love that the low water, European butters. For instance, like in the supermarket you can find blue graph for this kind of thing. But I never have actually done the test of how important the water content is. I'm loathe to suggest adding. Although you know what Crisco makes some flaky freaking stuff. Although when I'm making pie crust with Crisco, it's a different kind of flaky and there is a lot of fat melting in because I'm not a believer in hyper cold. Everything when you're making pie crust, I follow the kind of Jeffery Stein garden through Marion Cunningham pie crust recipe of hand rubbing and not worrying about the temperature too much. And no one complains about my pie crust, but you do get some bleed out of the fat into the into the fat into the flour in that. And so and I use lard for that which you could actually you know, which is actually more when I use lard it's actually colder because large is much more difficult to work with then shortening is but when I use Crisco shortening it you know, it works so you know what it might work if you really want to lower the water content, beat some Crisco into the margarine, like roll it in, like you know, whip it and then flatten it and make it into a block. It could work. But I mean, most margins I think are rockin in around the 20% water range in that area 17 to 20. And most butters are also in that same range. So I no doubt you're going to have a doubt I doubt we no doubt that the water is an issue, but well, maybe it is. What I would recommend is not obviously melting the margarine to try and get the water out of it because then you're breaking the emotion. Right? Right, fair. Okay. What do you think? Is that a valid answer? Give anything of use. Sometimes I can't tell whether I've said any freaking thing useful at all. I just can't tell. Okay. Michael from Oakland writes in again and now like making an I feel bad. He's like, Hey guys, welcome back from Colombia. Following up on the LUCAM a question from a few weeks ago. Again, I think your cocktail was lucuma was looking for an easier to locate substitute something I could find in a local market specialty market or Latin market. You asked me to tell you whether I was concerned with taste or feel or something else. It's the taste I care about. Thanks for looking into this and so I don't have a decent I don't have anyone out there. Please help us out. Help us out. Get us a good source of Luca and or Luca substitute, because the closest thing I have is can Estelle when because I had never actually worked with Luca directly I work with Kennestone Delicious, right? That's good product.

So, so I've never had to source it to someone helped me out. Help us out. It's helped us out. With that. Let's go to our second commercial break cooking issue. In the paper jam erotic erotic erotic erotic?

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I'll be back. We're back cooking issues. Joe, do you remember? Do we answer the question about raw milk safety last week or two weeks ago? Oh, engineer check that out. And I'm gonna answer another question. In the meantime. Greetings Natasha Javed. Dave, that's me. Jack and Joe, from Kevin Scott in San Jose, by the way San Jose, visited San Jose, where are others the sister school is for the ICC. And you it is almost impossible to find anything to frickin eat in San Jose after midnight. You know, I'm saying you're in Do you ever go hang out and says no, you're a you're a Southern California. But my college was was in Stanford. How close is that to San Jose? Close was in San Francisco. Really? Yeah. But no, I never ate there. Anyway, apparently, like somewhere there's like the late night taco stands that are supposed to be good. But no, no one could point us out there like man. So you know, I was starving one night in San Jose. So Kevin, if you can hook us up with the next time I'm in San Jose, where I should get good food after midnight. I would appreciate it because the city there's like 8 billion people in San Jose, right? It's like a giant freaking cities. Huge, huge, huge. Okay, so there's got to be good lighting. And it's it's it's not possible for there not to be anyway. Kevin writes, I'm thinking about buying a new three leader, tabletop center fuse for random Mad Science food hackery. What should I be looking for refrigerated or not any manufacturers to avoid swinging bucket or fixed rotor, I'd like to be able to try out things like making nut and vegetable butters, tomato water and clarifying stocks and juices. Our tabletop model is going to have enough oomph to handle this range of things. And while I'm asking questions, have you ever experimented with meat stock clarification in a centrifuge, I can imagine being able to get a beautifully clear stock. But is there a flavor loss? I don't know if you I don't? If you don't know I can do that experiment myself once I've acquired my centrifuge, okay. What should you be looking for refrigeration is nice. I mean, I love having refrigerator on my centrifuge. But that said, and there are some products that it's very, it's very helpful to have, but it adds a obviously they need more power, and it's a lot more space and the unit is a lot heavier. So you know, if you don't need refrigeration, if you don't want it, you can get a much more compact system without refrigeration. So and there are ways to get around the refrigeration, for instance, putting your buckets in the freezer before you load them so that they're cold x y x, y, z, the, the your product does heat up quite a bit in a centrifuge as it's spinning and it's because of the incredible friction that's just generated by the you know, this thing spinning around in the air and it gets quite warm. So we're talking the product that goes in pretty close to room temperature can come out at body temperature really at the end of like a 15 minute span or something like that. So if you have a product that you where the temperature is critical, for instance, butter or spinning cream into this kind of butter mass, which is something the wily does at the WD 50 Or has done then refrigeration is probably a good idea. Another thing is because of the immense friction centrifuge can chill very, very rapidly. So one of the advantage Is that I think of having a refrigerated unit is, you know, we'll do juicers when we're doing juices, I usually blend, you know, whatever fruit it is in a Vita prep along with the enzyme until it's slightly above water, water, body temperature, that means the enzyme works almost instantaneously and we could spend right away, I don't have to wait for the enzyme to break down stuff at lower fridge temperatures. Now, if you have a refrigerated centrifuge, it chills that product as it's spinning extremely rapidly down to a refrigerator temperatures just because there's such good heat transfer because of the immense amount of an airflow that you're getting across the buckets when you're when you're spinning. So refrigeration, if you can afford it in terms of space, and in terms of money, then I would get it I mean that's that's that whether or not any manufacturers to avoid, I really only have experience with Servolo larger sort of all units. And with what it was that Japanese when you remember the name of that thing was awesome. To think was amazing. Love that was awesome. Or, and the one in Japan, which I can't even remember as a Japanese manufacturer, and I don't think it's shipped here to the US. But the awesome thing about that, other than the fact that was awesome is very compact, right? It had a Plexi top and there's some American there's some manufacturers here that are I forget who like centrally I'm gonna forget who makes those. But there's a couple of manufacturers with Plexi tops. And they're kind of fun because you can get a strobe tack and shoot on the thing. And then you know, see the product as it's clarifying. It's not really necessary, but it is fun. But the awesome thing about that Japanese one was that the buckets, the aluminum buckets had stainless steel thin inserts that went into it that you can just use over and over and they're just really, really nice unit and really quiet smooth. Anyway. So I'm most of my experience has been which ones and this one is nice is a nice unit, but it's they're older because the company is out of business. It was bought by thermo which makes still makes a lot of centrifuges. And then and then the company was retired, the brand name was retired. While he uses a hettich. He seems to enjoy that. And I think Tony conigliaro in England also uses the head edge and he likes it, I think had he was out of Germany. But you know, all these guys, here's what I would, I would say, I wouldn't avoid a manufacturer. In a new centrifuge, I would avoid certain types. So I don't think you need as I look, here's the other thing. So the question is fixed rotor versus swinging bucket. Fixed rotor is going to be better for things like pea butter, and whatnot, just because of the way layers are formed in a fixed angle rotor. However, you know, most of the fixed angle rotors, you first of all, you can put a fixed angle rotor into a three liter benchtop thing, but you're not going to get three liters out of it, you're going to get a much smaller yield. And to buy a unit that can do three liters, that's fixed rotor is going to be a much, much larger unit. And you're talking a lot more money for bang for buck and most useful all around, go with the swinging bucket rotors, because that's the clarification machine. It works fine on nut butters. We've done how many? How many? How many, you know, things of nut butter, have we done in the countless, countless, too many nut milks, things of that nature. I've never actually done the pizza recipe. But I think that when Maxine belay came to the school, he did it in our centrifuge, that seemed to work fine. But the fixed angle rotors are good for a certain they're good, they're good for certain things. And I do some fixed angle work. Again, like all of my recipes that I work with are built around that centrifuge and around its capabilities. So I spend most of my time thinking of recipes, that that fit within those parameters. So there's many things I'm sure that you can do that, you know, you can now on stock.

I've never clarified stock in in regular stock in a centrifuge. And I'm assuming that to do it, you're going to require a lot of G's unless you do things like break down the gelatin in it, or add other fining agents to it. And then I'm assuming you'd be able to do it. But your question is, is that you're not sure if there's going to be flavor loss. There's always flavor loss and a clarification step. Let me be clear on this there is always always a flavor loss and a clarification step. The centrifuge by far is the least impactive technique to clarify that I've ever used. So you know, ag or clarification strips out certain things and centrifuge strips out certain things but things like ag are gelatin clarification strip out a lot more egg whites strip out a lot more and how you clarify also determines how much is stripped out. So mean even within the something like the centrifuge is what I mean to say. So, I'll give you the for instance, we do gin and juice is one of the recipes we do at the bar. And we clarify I used to clarify grapefruit juice using freestyle with Aguilar. So you know, you use two grams per liter grapefruit juice, you said a light ag our gel, you freeze it for you know tarde overnight, and you let it thaw in the big pants. And so, you know, we used to do, you know, liters and liters and liters. I remember that time we did like for the MoMA, we did a party for like 1500 or more people at the MoMA and we it was just like gallons and gallons we filled all we took every hotel pan in the school and fill it with frozen grapefruit juice. Remember that? Yeah. Yeah, and your yield is lower, but the grapefruit juice you get from that technique, freeze thaw is extremely clean and sweet because a lot of the bitterness of the grapefruit is stripped out, which is I guess, their engine, and it's stripped out in the agri clarification process. So when you use when you make gin and juice using ag or clarification, freeze thaw or quick, you do not need to add any simple syrup at all to the recipe. Okay, when you do centrifugal clarification on grapefruit juice, where we use an enzyme to break down the pectin and then some very light finding agents case of solid kind of sandwich designed for wine clarification. More of that inherent bitterness remains some of it's still stripped doesn't taste like fresh grapefruit, you know, like like, you know, whole grapefruit juice, but it is much more remained such that I do have to add a small amount of simple syrup to that recipe to get it to work. And so yes, there is a stripping of flavor. Sometimes that stripping of flavor is good. For instance, I wouldn't want the full bitterness of grapefruit juice in my gin and juice because I think it would all be overpowering with the gin and with the carbonation because we carbonate it all. So there's always flavors that are removed. Sometimes it's a good thing. Sometimes it's a bad thing with the stock. You know, whenever I clarify stock, I usually I'm doing a bunch and so I do regular freestyle clarification on stocks is watered down so there's not too much gelatin in there. But yeah, like I say you could use a finding agent in in conjunction with an enzyme called correlates, which breaks down correlates breaks down gelatin. The problem with when we've done tests of breaking down the gelatin using just meat, meat, protein stuff, basically, you know pain and other things that you can get as meat tenderizes The problem being that when proteins are broken down into very small fragments, some of those fragments can turn bitter and unpleasant to small poly peptides. And correlates is an enzyme that's designed specifically to break down gelatin into flavor LIS polypeptide so it breaks them down in such a way that they don't cause bitter and off flavors. And that stuff is freakin amazing. Unfortunately, like you take jellied stock hardcore jelly stock, you add a couple of drops of correlates and nothing melts out just melt melts even if it's cold book gone and then you can reduce stock we've done ridiculous things like take a gallon of stock and taking it down to you know like just like almost until it's saw and it doesn't set when it cools off. So we use that for like these incredibly intense kind of beef stock things it's amazing but anyway, I would get a hold of correlates except for I have not been able to so if Chris you know if Chris at monitors pantry can get his hands on some correlates enzyme. I would buy the hell out of that because that's we met him. Yeah, we did. We met him. What was it again? We're here Saturday. Oh, yeah, we did the heritage Raider that we talked about. They get sort of sort of here you think about what to say about that because I think I got one more question I got to hit before we before we get kicked out of here. And here. It is confused in Houston. CO confusing. Houston miles writes and dear Natasha, Dave, Jack and Jill. I've been researching hydrocolloid isn't my case in case on Wednesday that I've been researching hydrocolloids, and in particular methylcellulose. Since there are a bunch of different kinds of this stuff. How can one tell which is right for a particular purpose? For example, if I wanted to make a hot melting jelly, which type of methylcellulose would I use? And what about for stabilizing the foam? Thanks in advance. Okay, Matt is a great is a great thing and a great question. And a lot a lot of this goes back to some original problems I had with recipes, printing online, and also with bronze tech stores line and the products in tech stores. They're all they're all good products. They're all high quality products. But the problem is, is that they don't necessarily tell you what's in them. So for instance, in bronze metal and bronze gel, and it's just called gel and it's not just Joanna. It's a mixture of two different kinds of Joanne Hazel, Joanne and Loisel Joanne that's, I guess some sort of compromise that you can use to make fluid gels but also has a somewhat gelatin care turistic when it's used as a gel in its own right, and I'm pretty sure I it's been a billion years since I've used his gel and but I think it's basically 25% of the Heisel gel and which is the stretchy weird one and 75% of the low ASA, which is the brittle clear, you know, one that's good for fluid gels. So on methyl cell, I used to know it one time and I've forgotten what is the what they're actually using in that now. There are many different producers of methyl cellulose methyl cellulose is one of the few unnatural hydrocolloid that we use. And by that, I mean that methyl cellulose does not occur in nature. It's a it's a derived product from cellulose, you know, from like, manufacture of cotton and things like this. And so they're not naturally occurring, but they're not it doesn't make them evil, it just means they don't occur in nature. But there are a zillion different kinds. There's straight methylcellulose, there's hydroxypropylmethylcellulose, there's, there's, there's a bunch of different ones, the ones that and there are several manufacturers of it, the ones that I use and have used are manufactured by Dow, and Dow Dow is brand name is Metho, sell, right me T H O, I can't spell out se se e l Metacell. And they, those are the ones that most chefs write their recipes around Tao Metacell. The good thing about Tao is that Tao has online or leave us to if they don't, I can email or put on my thing, a bunch of