Hello, everybody, and welcome to a brand new series on heritage radio network called the culinary call sheet where we give a peek into the back kitchen of culinary media. I'm your host, April Jones,

and I'm your co host, Darren bresnitz. Part of why we started the show was to offer an unofficial mentorship for anyone who's interested in learning about all aspects of food and video, whether that's TV, social media online, or just something you want to do for fun.

Absolutely what was once niche or a little silly, as I'm sure you remember, Darren, when we started out, this man has now become such a massive playing field for so many creatives using food as the medium.

It's something that has driven us professionally and personally, for so many years. What excites me the most about this show is that we're going to sit down with some of the industry leaders to hear how they made it and what drew them into this industry.

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We'll be covering everything from how to style your food, to how to license IP, to developing your own ideas, and some tips from the masters of how to host your own show.

Yeah, it's a little bit of conversation, how to and how do you do the things that you do in color media, which I'm so excited about? I love so many of the guests that are coming on this season. We have talent from Food Network from Vice media eater refinery 29,

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broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn, you're listening to heritage Radio network.com.

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Hello, and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host and cooking issues coming to you live every tuesday in the back of Roberta's pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the heritage Radio Network. Joined today with Natasha hammer Lopez, who's going to lead directly from here to go to Seattle for the Modernist Cuisine dinner in

Portland, Portland, in Portland, Stumptown. Even though I don't appreciate good coffee.

Well, okay. Well, we'll get into this later, by the way, Mr. Bhatia brings up something like that. There's someone later made a comment that basically that Natasha, you should pick on me more so that the argument seems say your she has You said she agrees, because what she wants you the listener to feel is that somehow, like, I only pick on her instead, what actually happens, I'll just give you a hint. Here's the thing. So for a living mustache, and I try to tell people what they should be, you know, not what they should be eating and where you see this but trying to help people make better decisions to make things better to do a better job making food using technology or otherwise, whether it's a cooking issues, whether it's a book or in DAX, whether it's at the Museum of food and drink, we spend all of our time trying to increase the quality and not the snobbery, but the quality of what people can produce and do produce and do consume, right. So, like the slit moustache will do is not once or twice, or three or four or 20 or 30 or 120 times but more, poke me with things that she knows will bother me, for instance, that her favorite coffee happens to be from one of those quilted like boxes on the side of the street with wheels you guys want to talk about? We're also joined in the studio with our intrepid engineer and the guy who keeps the entire heritage radio running Jack Ainsley over there. Hello, guys. Yeah, Jay, you know, I'm talking about those quilted those quilted like, yeah, they got like stale stale bagels and coffee in them. So Mr. ATIA? Her point is that she likes to say that this is her favorite coffee because and the first 30 or 40 times I didn't let it irritate me. And then because it's not like I can say, hey, look, the stuff that you enjoy that coffee, right? It's not that easy. You don't enjoy it, because somehow you enjoy going down to the cesspool that is your street, and, and buying a coffee from this guy, and somehow that's an enjoyable human interaction that doesn't involve hipsters, because folks in this dosha hates hipsters. And it's true. Yeah. hates him and good coffee and hipsters in this city. They go together. Do they not Jack? Most cities? Yes. Yes. No. Okay, fair, fair. Okay. She hates going to Starbucks because she hates corporations and and the people who work in them

Jack can you can agree with that? Oh, absolutely, yeah, yeah.

But she says she hates that. And she hates the general alternative which are hipsters, right? Because you're not it's hard to get unless they're an owner, like a 50 year old non hipster to sit around and make you a coffee all day. Jack, am I correct about this? And you're spot on? Yeah, because coffee is good coffee, though. That's what I'm saying. And there's no snobbery to enjoying good coffee. It's just it's a right. It's a it's a ritual. Like, literally, there are peasants somewhere most likely picking the coffee cherries that they then processed or shipped all the way around the world to make a cup of coffee for you respect it. That's all I'm saying. Respect the coffee. Caller. Okay. Caller you're on the air.

Hey there, Dave. I wanted to ask about pressure cooking. I am in the enthusiast category, not an instant home chef, and have been listening to your show for a while. Long enough that I memorized the phone number which is a little scary to me.

Wow. Cool. Yeah, because I forgot to mention it. Good.

And so this, I can't really afford this the Suvi equipment, the low temperature right now. But I did get a pressure cooker. And because I've heard you mentioned it a bunch of times. And I was curious about some recipes hadn't really heard you talk too much about like, what the pressure cooker is really good for I really, I got it in the mail. And I was like, Well, what do I do with this?

Okay, what kind of pressure cooker Do you have?

It's just a it's a six quart, and I can't I can't remember the brand. Does

it vent? Or does it not vent? Like in other words, when it's when it's running? Does it constantly put steam out or not? I haven't even tried it. So like the pressure cookers in general. They are all pressure cookers that you that you buy. It's gas or It's electric.

It's still okay.

Yeah. So all stovetop units basically can either generate five PSI of pressure or 15. Right. And so they could be Yeah, yeah, no, but you could do in other words, they're usually settable to do either, but you won't be okay, great, right. Most of the recipes that I do are based on 15. The the main difference is, is that certain pressure cookers have a pressure regulating mechanism in them. That regulates pressure without venting steam, so they use a spring and you actually can see like, a spring traveling up without any steam coming out of the units. Notably Kuhn recon has ones like that, then other pressure cookers, they let you know they're at pressure, and they regulate their pressure by emitting steam. And so you have to have steam emitting from it little bit, not a lot in order to judge whether you've reached the proper pressure or not. Okay, so, one of the great things to do with pressure cookers is stocks, stocks and soups. What you need to realize when you're doing that, when you're making soups, in general in a pressure cooker is that pressure cooking drastically mutes the flavor of things like onions, it gets rid of a lot of their pungency, but it also amplifies their sweetness. So I like a lot of that sweetness from onions. So I like I quadruple my onion base in a recipe, right. But things like carrots, they stay sweet, but they don't get more or less sweet or celery. So if you just take this classic Nearpod they're okay. But what happens is you get extremely fast removal of gelatin and flavor from the meats. So you can do a pressure cook stock in 15 minutes, right and then you let it come down and then you can do you can put a second set of bones into a second stock I could do a triple stock which is extremely indulgent I grant you but in in in about an hour. The trick is if your pressure cooker is the kind of pressure cooker that releases steam, I found that there's a flavor degradation in in the stock versus regular regular production is still faster, it's still good, but a pressure cooker that does not really release steam makes a stock that in my estimation and that people have tasted is darker media and tastes better and has better flavor than regular cook stock and, and is also faster. Whereas if you have one that releases steam, then the flavor is not quite as good as regularly produced stock still good but not quite as good as regular produce stock but it still is quicker. One way around. This is something that I learned actually from Myhrvold and young and Maxime from Modernist Cuisine is they actually do smaller stocks inside of mason jars in the pressure cooker. So when you're doing that there's there's a couple of advantages with doing a super selling would mean Did that way one, it sterilized if you cook it long enough, you have to know what you're doing. Right? So it's shelf stable at that point. But you know, unless you read up on it, be careful, okay? Second, there is no choice, there's no way that volatiles can leave. And so even with a pressure cooker in advance, you can get all the benefits of an under pressure cooker. And the third one is you can do extremely small volumes. So if you have something like squat, and you don't have that many bones or some sort of game bird or anything like that, where you don't have a lot of the product to begin with, you can still make a very concentrated flavorful stop, because if you put it into a mason jar, and you can get different sizes of mason jars all the way up to a liter and a half if you wanted to, then you can make those things very concentrated in small quantities. So that's a good thing to do. Another great thing with pressure cookers is pressure cooking eggs, you let them you let them hard boil for a couple of minutes with the lid off the then just so that they're set so that they don't rupture, then you you bring them up from cold then you close the pressure cooker allowed to come up to 15 psi, cook it for between 45 minutes an hour and 10 minutes, let it come down naturally. If you live you vent it, the eggs could explode. And then when they're cool, you'll open them you'll see that they're brown, and they'll have the out the whites will have a kind of nutty toastiness and the yolks will have an aroma of kind of giblet gravy kind of kind of chicken livery aroma, which I find quite awesome. And that's due to admire reactions and pressure cooking mustard seeds in vinegar, you have to blanch them once or twice to get rid of the dirty taste. Then after you press cooked them and vinegar, then drain them and toss them and sugar makes an amazing garnish. Horseradish graded again blanche to get rid of the dirty flavor of pressure cooked, you can make horseradish purees it tastes of horseradish but aren't very pungent. I actually use the pressure cooker all the time. And this is something I don't normally do. I would never do this to serve someone in a in a restaurant situation because I would just do a long cook brace. But pork shoulder just hacked up with a bunch of you know, you just get like you know, your three or four favorite ground dried chilies. And, you know pork shoulder. And even even you know I always have the I always always use chicken stock because I always have chicken stock in my freezer, but any kind of stock in there. And just very minimal amounts of liquid. The trick with pressure cooking is minimal amount of liquid in there because you're not going to boil a lot of it off. Right. But they're they're fantastic for you know, for all of these things. And then you can get into kind of crazier situations like trying to do pressure cooked caramels. But they require a little bit of tweaking. But yeah, pressure cooker, you're going to have not only that, I don't know where you live, but summertimes coming on and nothing beats pressure cooking. Summertime pressure cooking is awesome, because you can, you could tear off a lot of ingredients in it without releasing a lot of heat into your kitchen. Because once they're at pressure they have they're very, very efficient once they're pressure, because when we had to throttle it way down once they're cooking, so I think you're going to I think you're going to enjoy it.

Cool, thanks. Hey, thank you. I have one quick comment for Jack. Oh,

Jack, are you go Jack?

What's up with the reverb button? The end of the show, the revert button always goes off over the credit.

Wow. It makes me very happy that somebody noticed that. Thanks. That's just that's just to keep me entertained right here. Yeah. Thanks, man.

Nice. Nice. Thank you very much. I was listening, by the way. quite correct. Call your questions to 718-497-2128 That's 718-497-2128 So back to this dash enter coffee. The main point of that was the main point was that is that she'll say something like I don't like that kind of coffee. And to you the listener when and i i On purpose knew she was going to do something like this. So I didn't go crazy. But when I go completely bonkers when she says something like that, it's because it's as though she's opening a wound that hasn't even healed yet that she's been stabbing me with the same knife for like two and a half, three months and this that particular one years. So she's her one of her little joys in life is to set up these situations where she can make me look like a tyrant in public through this kind of careful application of minor irritants over long periods of time. It's not

that calculated. It's really not I mean, it just comes naturally to you. Wow. Anyway, hopefully I'll come back with an appreciation for

is are you gonna Are you gonna see Dwayne are hipsters Yeah, we're hipsters, right right you know Portland, Portland many great things that come from Portland Andy. Andy Ricker. Jackie. You're gonna see him out there. Jack you've been to that restaurant yet. Puck puck know what the hell's wrong with you. Jesus,

it's in your hipster bread it down. Wow.

Also speaking of river button, I listened to a little bit of the show to check how the iTunes worked. I sound like I'm on coke. Most of the time. I'm trying to speak slower today I like I'm telling you guys I'm not on like my drug of choice is alcohol consumed hopefully responsibly in most cases on rage well that's what my drug my drug is rage rage yeah rage anyway so I'm trying to speak a little bit more slowly today if you guys have any opinions on whether I should speak at this pace or at my normal pace give me a call but I can't help it like I'm trying right now I'm deliberately slowing myself down so I don't sound like I want

to know if people like the personal anecdotes that you that you say till like was I don't know just some of their stories I enjoy all scientific and food but

I told people you know boring show calling about waffles anything to talk about anything Yeah, no

question is too stupid.

That should be the new tagline

no question too stupid. No hosts, right? No host too smart. No question too stupid. All right, here we go. Dave And Natasha, the hammer Lopez, which was abbreviate here to NT HL

to figure out what did you get that right away? I didn't.

You didn't, man. Well, you don't. Yeah, whatever. Okay, Greece or New Hampshire. Chris Anderson in the monitors pantry pointed me to your show. And I've been enjoying the podcast with Memorial Day around the corner. Oh my God, it is around the corner. The stash is going directly by the way from Portland to Myhrvold in Seattle to Japan. And I'm making her fly to all those locations with three kind of three red hot pokers

I was stopped in Philadelphia. See?

What the hell's wrong with you? Hey, listen, this dosha here's the thing. You I'm sorry. I'm gonna get to your question in what in one second? Here's the thing. The stock and I are the two cheapest people on Earth. We are so freakin cheap. That even though we're out on the L train and stuff like how many transfers do I gotta get to take a subway with all my stuff to the to the airport to LaGuardia so I can listen to starship. Listen, we have a company now. Booker. I want everyone to listen to this Booker and DAX will pay for you to take a car service to LaGuardia the airport. Oh, wow.

That's funny. I was looking for the applause. And I found that yeah, which

is even better. Yeah. But yeah, it will be it'll be hard to. It will be hard to kind of understand the deeply ingrained cheapness and the stash and I had in general, were some cheap people. Okay, so with Memorial Day around the corner, can you summarize some specific time temperature and prep recommendations for low temperature for insurance and other low temperature cookout dishes off the top of my head or sausage and beer, hamburger fried chicken strip steak ribeye and others. I have a poli sci and circulator and will likely cook chill return and finish on the grill slash fryer, etc. How do you guesstimate minimum return time for a mixed pot of proteins is the maximum the whole time four hours minus the cook time? And there's another question, but this that which I'm going to get in one second? In fact, I might do it later because it's going to take me a million years to answer that one. And the stuff she doesn't want to hear about your science apparently. But these questions are from Rob Trey. Pause. And by the way, thank you for telling me how to pronounce your name because there's no way I would have gotten it off the spelling. What would your guess have been?

I don't know. But I knew you were gonna appreciate that. And I did.

Yeah. Yeah, we appreciate that kind of thing. We appreciate unless your name Smith, in which case I know how to pronounce that already. Okay. So, Henri therms. By the way, don't worry. Everything on how long you can hold a meet depends on the temperature of the bath if the bath temperature is extremely low. So if I'm doing so first of all, your first question was cooking for insurance. For those of you that don't know what that is, it's what you do is you use low temperature cooking which is using a water bath or a combi oven or C that is using a very very accurate temperature to cook the meat all the way through. Now the meat at this point is not finished. In general when I do cooking for insurance, low temperature for insurance. I don't do any kind of pretreatment to it at all. All I'm doing is assuring that the center of the meat is cooked exactly where I want it to be. And then I cool it. Okay, and so for chicken breast it would be 63 degrees Celsius. For chicken leg it'd be 6566 degrees Celsius. For rib steak, it would be 55 degrees Celsius, and the list goes on and on for sausage it would be I usually do 60 or 140 degrees. It's a little pink in the center but I like it that way. Did you like the bras we had? Yeah, love them. That was 60 degree petal of free to donate it to the museum food and drink event we had last week. A thank you for people that have been to our fundraisers in the past. And patlak freedom made up a bunch of delicious brats. We circulated them in Brooklyn, Brooklyn Brewery gave us a bunch of beer graciously gave us beer to circulate the Bronson and we circulated the broths at 140 degrees Fahrenheit 60 degrees Celsius and then grilled them off man were those Good. They're really good man. I'm Martin's potato rolls wasn't even mustard we got that's good mustard to look it up. That was delicious mustard anyway, delicious. So what you do is you cook it all the way through and then when you're finishing them. And a lot of times we don't return when you're doing for insured, we don't return using or reheat using low temperature, we just do traditional cooking methods. So if you're doing a prime rib, here's my recommendation for a primary, cook an entire prime rib to 55 degrees all the way through. Now it's medium rare, rare, medium rare in the center. It's good, right, whole thing's good. Now, let it cool down, rapid, let it cool down, put it into a very hot oven, and just wait for the crust to develop. What you want is that nice crispy crust on the outside. And with a prime rib. Actually, you want a little bit of overcooked stuff on the outside. Otherwise a prime rib doesn't look appetizing when you cut through it because it's all one color of meat. But you're all you need to focus on is delicious crust because the inside is already cooked to where you want it right. And so that's the essence of cooking for insurance duck breast 57 degrees Celsius, about 135 Fahrenheit, you want to cook it for 45 minutes, make sure you flatten the breast so that the skin will render later, let it cool down. And then all you need to focus on is staring off the skin and that skirt see staring off the skin will reheat the meat enough to serve it. But it's not going to overcook it because you're just focused on the skin. So you can he can be a little bit higher than normally would. Right. So basically anything can be can be done that way. Hamburgers I do at 55 to 57 Depending on the how squeamish the people are who are eating it. And then on a hamburger, a hamburger sometimes you can even like cool all the way down you got to be a little careful to not let oxygen in the bag. Otherwise, there's gonna be a problem with rancidity when it reheat especially if it sits overnight what you don't want to do and then you know you can let it cool down and then deep fry it and they're great ribs steak, if you're going to serve it right away, I would drop the temperature to 50 degrees Celsius but the not if you're going to serve in the Health Department kind of but I do that at home, but don't let it sit very long at 50 I will only listed a couple of hours and 50 C because there you're at the borderline where bacteria are going to start coming back to life they won't but you know you don't want to be in that situation too long. But if you're holding something like a sausage above the temperature at which bacteria are dying and the temperature keeps getting revised down and down, but a sausage you can hold easily at 140 or even lower you're going to be killing bacteria and you can hold it for Infinity basically you know the texture will start going down but you can hold it for infinity as that sounds good all right. I'm going to come back to your other question after the commercial break and answered a little bit later on cheeses come back cookie issues. Oh watching when you get it for free while she kept

by the following program was sponsored by s Wallis Edwards and sons. Summertime is not the only time when barbecue is welcome at as well as Edwards and Sons Sam Edwards has been working his magic on ribs brisket, hip cooked whole pork, and much much more at a few of their sides and the party is complete entertaining has never been so easy to order go to Virginia traditions.com

The river busted out calling questions Oh you have a caller right now but let me say this before to the caller on I like myself some Sam Edwards ham sandwich so does not enjoy the potty mouth. Oh does not just don't curse around Sam Edwards. It's true. The traditional min. Caller, you're on the air

right here in the sashes coming to Portland. So I don't actually have a question like you have one about the pressure coding stuff. mechanicals. But I do have a suggestion. Which is, if you only go to one brewery in Portland, it would be go to the cascade brewing Barrelhouse, which has been fantastic. And all they have is sour beer. And it's constantly changing. And it's probably the best place.

Like in general.

No, no, like, seriously, in general, I guess the way to choose from, it's the one place you just keep going back at changes all the time. There's, like, seriously, the best place in general. The cheese bar is good, too.

So I'll take it. What's it called? Cascading cascade brewing.

Cascade brewing, it's a barrel house. It's on its own Belmont. It's just constantly changing. sour beer. And it's, it's a fantastic value as well.

They specialize in sour sour beers like, like Rodenburg style, or what?

Well, they have, they have some Rotenberg style. But they'll do they'll do everything from from several wheat beers. To and then and then barely do them. And then they'll serve. Some of them live from the barrel. And they'll add, I mean, the most random fruits and nuts that I haven't turned over, there's ones like I can't even pronounce the nut that they put in there. But it was it was fantastic.

Miss Tasha likes actually, if she's gonna have a beer, it's hard to get her to have it frankly, which I don't want to bring up right now. But but she likes beer with acidity I do. So she this may be the place for her. And I hope to hear back from her on how much she enjoyed it. Yeah,

thank you so much.

Yeah, I bet the stock in the in the camera when you're when you're tennis, what does a if you're any aromatics or? Or when we add vegetables to it does that? Are you talking about just making it with the with the bones? Because with those breakdown or something, if you listen to that cam for a while,

if you liked them a long time? Probably I mean, the you know, the the ones they were doing, they were doing almost like I mean, think about coffees are done in jars all the time. And they're delicious. And there's there's bones in them. So once it stops cooking, you're not going to get that much more extraction. In other words, I don't think you're going to be ripping the calcium out of it, if that's what you mean. Dependent because it's not going to be acidic. You know what I'm saying? And in things like coffee, there are often jeugd or four can process. They're fine for a long period of time. But I think in modern cuisine, they're making just smaller versions of stocks. I haven't seen that section in a long time. So you're stretching my, my memory banks. And when I did get to look at it, I have to make a confession. I don't own it yet. So I've only gotten to look at it when I have like pored through it at the events I've gone to you know what I mean? So So and I mean, I know all those guys, and I talked to those guys all the time. And and I've read, you know, chunks of it but literally sitting in a library, you know not I will own it. It's I'm not I'm it's worth the money. You know what I mean? But I just don't have it yet. Because when if I told my wife Hey, honey, I spent $500 on a book what? You don't need any Booker and DAX alone to copy. We'll keep it at the what's a call? So yeah, so that answer your question.

Yeah, I think that's cool.

I have a question for the caller. Actually. Twitter. Twitter wants to know if that brewery uses spontaneous fermentation.

You know, I believe they have their own cultures now. So they there, it's actually in the barrels now. And so when they when they put the beer into the barrel, it picks up all the lactobacillus and potassium ICs. And whatever else is in there, and so they've got they've got different barrels, and then they'll blend some of them together towards the end. But I'm not sure if that originally came from spontaneous fermentation if the cultures that are in the barrel, but I think they are because they have their own. They get like all their all their fruit from around here, and they just, they just let it go. They're really, really, really good. Cool. Thanks. Thank you.

We also have another caller, guys. All right. Caller you're on the air.

Hi, David. Danny from Chicago. Hey. Hey, I got good today. All right. Good. Hey, I had a meal at Charlie Trotter's last Thursday, the kitchen table was incredible.

Oh, what are they closing that down? One of the closing down?

Hey, I'm having trouble hearing you. I think I might need to call back.

Well, what would you talk to talk? Alright, you call back and say I want to hear about the dinner. Charlie. Give a call right back? I will. Thanks. So while he's waiting to call back Michael nakin from Uber voracious, wrote in and thanked us for mentioning the book. We've read the book. I enjoyed the book. And by the way, it gives a well deserved shout out he does As to Iceberg lettuce, which is delicious. I like iceberg lettuce who doesn't like iceberg lettuce? It's some crunchy, cool refreshing stuff. Jack. Are you with me? I'm on board. Miss dosha even is on board we're all three of us are on board for Iceberg lettuce. And and for Michael Anakin from a voracious he wrote back, you'd like to be on one of our shows. Let him know what you think would be a good fit. You could come on this show if you wanted to. Yeah, we could have I mean, I don't know if you want to you could if he if that's what you wanted to do. He just was in New York. He didn't stop by the booker index because he went to a Tara, which he gave an amazing review to the have you been there? With mark? Just seems like the kind of place you would go. Apparently amazing new place a plot from New York Magazine gave it four stars. I haven't been cuz I haven't been. But he says says very, very good things about columns back by the way. All right. Caller you're on the air.

Hey, Dave is dandy again.

Is that better? Can you hear me? Yeah, I

can hear you what's going on?

Good. So Charlie Trotter, when are they closing down

their closed end of August, I think August 31, or something like that.

Alright, so you're one of the last people to ever eat there.

I think it was, in fact, the group that I went with. We loved it so much. We're gonna try to go again, on the very last day that they're open. It was just, it was incredible. I mean, being in the kitchen and actually seeing everybody cook. And, you know, serving us right there. It was just really an experience of a lifetime. And a couple of my dining companions. Actually, were able to get up and help help some of the chefs like prepare, prepare some of the dishes near the end.

So was it as clean as it has famously purported to be? It was pretty

clean. Yeah, we ended up staying there till like 1:30am or something like that. And they were scrubbing the heck out of that thing. By the time they were done. Yeah, I was pretty impressed with cleanliness. Charlie's. He's, he's, he's kind of got a course mouth, which is pretty fun. He's, it seems like he's having fun in the last few months that he's open.

So as you're saying the floor is clean, but his mouth is not.

Exactly right. Yes. Yeah. But that's the important thing is

exactly what he famously said once that you could almost review a restaurant just by looking at his floor in the kitchen.

Interesting. You know, I think I've heard that now that you say that? Yeah. Yeah. It's

kind of one of his better known statements. Yeah. Well,

I like it. You know, I like eating clean establishments. And that was one of the cleaner ones I've Well, I mean, I've never been in a real. I've rarely been in a real restaurant kitchen before. So this was, but I was I was impressed nonetheless. Yeah, so they do kind of dislike this beat terrain. And I was Wonder what do you think that use? Do they think to bind it together? How I imagined it would be cooked at a fairly high temper? Would you cook the beats beforehand, and then just put them in a train and let them chill and sat there? Well, what do you think?

Sort of hot or cold? Cold? Yeah, so they combined it with almost anything then you serve cold. I mean, the classically, obviously, you would find something like a gelatin if you wanted to stay. If you want to stay vegetarian, I would use a combination of if you want that gelatin, like feel that cost and mouthfeel of gelatin, I would use a mixture of kappa carrageenan and locust bean gum, the Kappa carrageenan by itself is brittle. And the locust bean gum when you add it to it, softens it. So it's like jazz, so it's like gelatin, but it still can remelt so you can use if you wanted to heat it. I mean, you could use ag our problem with Aguilar is it's not 100% clear so it's not going to look as shiny. Do you know what I'm saying? As as as kappa plus the special LBG that CP cocoa serves will use. You could also use something called jellen gum. Gelatin is not going to be as flexible. If you use the clear one. It's going to be a little more brittle. But then you can deep fry it.

Cool. Yeah. Oh, wow. Deep fried. Yeah, that would be incredible.

Yeah. The problem with Chilean if you're going to use gelatin is that you have to we have to heat the beads before you pour it on or you're going to get some pre gelling problem. Do you know what I mean? Aguilar is going to be a little simpler to work with. But kappa carrageenan LBG, which is I think modernist has a has a version of that somewhere. That mixture is really good or just straight up gelatin gelatin is great, as long as your kitchen is not going to be too hot. And you're going to serve a cold.

Yeah, and I'm not too worried about you know, keeping it veggie or vegan. So I think delta would probably be the way to go. But yeah, it was really nice. Real golden beach is gorgeous. So no, no quick question. I called in last summer about a hand I was carrying in my attic. And unfortunately, I went up there a couple a couple of weeks ago and I've gotten bugs.

I hate that no beetles or mites.

What was the first one Beatles? I think there might, they will. They're little they look to be little grubby type things. You know, they leave kind of Assad us looking what I assume is some sort of feces, you know, around where there were there to basically there was a little bit of a taint in up near the bone. There was a little bit of extra skin removed and a little too much exposure. I don't think I got assaulted quite well enough, right when I first you know when I first cured it. And so there's always been a little bit of a taped up there but until A few weeks ago, you know, no sign of any other type of contamination. So you think there's, yeah, what do I do? Am I Am I just screwed? I mean, or do you think there's some Is there a way I can, you know, cut the rest of it around the bugs or

right. Okay, so you're in Chicago? Yeah. So you're probably pretty much like New York. I mean, they have other things like Skipper's down south that cause problems. But in our kind of latitudes, the two main enemies of ham are different varieties of boring beetle, and mites. So the boring beetle, you'll see holes in the meat just above the fat line. Did you see those are their holes in the meat?

I couldn't really tell like the place. The Butcher job wasn't wasn't very good. You know, they there, it was clear that the pig was hung from this legs. There was like a little bit of slit, you know, in the tendon by the what do you call it the gambrel gamble holds basically, yeah. So I haven't had the chance to really inspect it that closely to see where it is, but it's not on the face. It's all up by the, by the bone. I'm hanging it. You know, Hawk Hawk up. Stuff I haven't noticed.

I mean, well, the good news is, is that the tape can be cut away, and the rest of the ham is okay. And that, you know, I've had a lot of beetle damage before on hands I've been had hanging but they were always on the face. But for those that don't know, we're talking about the face is the portion of meat that the bone projects out of that was attached to the pig. And I usually see beetle damage right at the fat line on the face side, right? Not on not through the skin because the skin is a lot harder to attack in the face. So the boring beetle damage that I've had has been on the face side. So it's probably not that if you're not seeing individual bugs, but just kind of dust on the ground. That's probably mites. And those mites, like the dust is actually mites and not feces. It's actually mites. The good news there, brush off the mites in your and you're good to go. The bad news, the bad news, once you have mites in your attic, you have mites in your freaking attic. And like even if you wait for a year and hang another hand, you're gonna get mites on that hand. So yeah, so they there are things you can treat your your attic with that I forget what I forget the name of them, because I've never I've never tried to do it. I also now have mites in my house. So when I hang hands, I get mites. It's not going to hurt, you can brush them off. It's not a problem.

I think I think I did see some actual little grubby larva looking things. So it's probably not the mites,

but that was probably on the taint section.

Oh, yeah, good point. Right, right, right. Maybe it's just fine.

Right? That could be flies, any kind of fly like blow fly or anything like that. So things like that, like because they'll eat that section, whereas they won't eat the really cured part meat cut. Cut yourself a good section around that that tainted portion. And to be honest, there's not that much meat up there anyway, you're not losing that much. What you're losing is a couple good soups. That's it? You know what I mean? And the rest of your hands are fine. Yeah, you can give that up and the rest of your hands should be fine.

Yeah, and, you know, frankly, it's been a good experiment. But you know, for the quality of ham you can get from, you know, Finch, Ville and Newsom and stuff like that. Not that expensive and pretty freakin incredible. So, this might be my last stab at it, but at least I can salvage this one.

Yeah. So but you know what, it's rewarding. And there is a learning curve to it. And, you know, you might want to check out Dr. Norman Marriott. Formerly, he's emeritus at, I think at Virginia Tech has a pretty good PDF available online. With Yeah, with troubleshooting on on ham care if you want to give it again, I unfortunately don't have a place that I can hang one. So I haven't I haven't done but as soon as I get a house out in the middle of nowhere to you know, take my kids to when I'm not in New York City. I'll be hanging up some pork Believe it or not, let me believe Yeah,

I think I'm looking at curing chamber to cured meats blog, Jason Molnar, I think he's written in a couple of times. He's got a, you know, some good good DIY curing chamber tips. So I think that, hopefully that'll help. I'd like to try some other type of salumi and things like that as well. So

yeah, it is the age of the DIY. Thank God. It's an exciting time to be alive.

Heck, yeah. Okay, cool. So much. Thank

you. Jack. Can we do one more commercial break? Sure. Call somebody 4972128784972128 Good.

feed on the bow lifts when my cups are ready. her. Oh, you're here. Yeah, you don't know is is that my cousins are from Seattle. And we're always doing like the weird Eddie Vetter stuff when we're cooking. By the way, I pre apologize to everyone for not getting taller. I'm not gonna be able to get to all the questions today. Right so as Sam for Japan, we're gonna try and do cookies from Japan. And we did that Jack. Yeah, let's do it. Cooking issues from Tokyo. Alright, prep kitchen. What? Yeah, we're gonna be in the in the prep kitchen. Yes. Awesome. Okay. During the starship, Dave and Jack, love the show appreciate how accessible you make it for us to not in the industry full time. I've learned a lot and had a chance to use much of what you're talking about. Thank you. This is from Alan Friedman, by the way, and He expects us all to be killed by by vegan terrorists. But you first discussion, just saying. I'm curious whether current microwave technology is at all interesting, I have a chance to get a very cheap new microwave with continuous amplitude control, rather than traditional pulse with full on philos cycling, but it wouldn't be worth the hassle of swapping out and disposing the old one. If there's nothing really new and interesting I can do with it. I've never really used a microwave for anything other than leftovers and melting chocolate. But perhaps there are fun techniques that you could share. Thanks, Alan. And then a little note to Ben is as much fun as playing with old microwaves was as a rather reckless young geek, I may be more averse to self immolation these days, Alan, okay, true story. I look, having done it several times, please don't chop up your microwave oven. They're dangerous voltages in there. If you defeat the safety interlocks, you can nuke your eyeballs with microwaves. And then they turn white like a cooked egg never to unweit. Yeah, so please don't mess with you. Jimmy, please don't mess with your microwaves. That said, I've done it several times. But the trick here for those who don't know what the hell we're talking about, when you put a microwave standard microwave on half power? Have you noticed this and started getting microwave? No, have you ever had a microwave? You notice how it goes me? Me and the light dims a little bit. That's because it doesn't actually change the power level, it just turns the magnetron off and on for a specific amount of time. And it actually takes a little bit of time. The magnetron, by the way, is the thing that's generating the microwaves, that's what it's called, called the magnetron. And it takes a while for the magnetron to heat up start generating the you know, to actually start producing appreciable amounts of microwave. So they timed the the duty cycle, not the duty cycle, the full cycle, how long that cycle is, man, man, to take advantage of the fact that the magnetron has a little bit of a time lag between when you apply power and when the microwaves come out. So 80% power, it's on 80% of the time and then off 20 100% power, it's on 100% of the time. And the theory with microwaves is that that's okay, because you're hitting it with full power and then turning it off and the food gets to cool off and it all averages out. Continuous control is something that allows you to actually change the amount of power that the microwave is putting out on a continuous basis. I've always wanted one to do very controlled, delicate work on defrosting and things like that. I've never used one. So I can't say whether or not it's actually any better. The one time I tried to build one, I was trying to do microwave dehydration in a vacuum. And so the idea is, is that you use a microwave to boil the inside of. So microwaves penetrate food. And so you're actually boiling liquids out on the inside of a product. And that is advantageous if you're trying to dry it in the presence of a vacuum to instead of freeze drying if you don't have to do things like dehydrated grapes, without them having trunk like raisins, because the positive pressure of the water boiling out keeps them in the proper shape as they're going. The issue is I had I had a lot of issues, but I wanted to control the power so that didn't overheat. But my temperature control my I had a thermocouple in there. And it was arcing like a baster because as soon as you apply microwaves in a vacuum, a partial vacuum, you get huge plasma balls rolling around and lighting everything on fire on the inside of the microwave. I then was trying to do power control on it of my own kind of accord. It was a complete nightmare. Horrible. I don't recommend doing it. That said I've always been interested in actual continuous controlled microwaves but I don't know. I don't really know mean and we all have my microwave tricks or like really crappy things to do somebody else's microwave at a party at this point, which I can't really I don't really want to talk about on here cuz there's plenty of websites. I'll teach you how to do it right. So yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Take another question. Hey, Dave, Anastasia and Jack went to the NRA show recently and scored a deal for a poli science professional circulator fracking for about 50% off by the way. Good tip. If you're going to trade shows, the last day of the trade show people don't want to carry that Crap home. So what you can do is make a deal with them preferably early in the trade show to buy their units before they go home. This way, they don't have to take them home and you can get usually dealer price or sometimes even slightly below dealer price. At a trade shows good little tip. I've not have a vacuum sealer foods there as FoodSaver style nor chamber, I will receive a circulator soon had a couple of questions, can you leave proteins in the cryovac packaging to cook cvwd? Perhaps you just give up the ability to preset your season and marinate. Okay, the problem with that a lot of cryovac bags that are shipped aren't shipped, they're not cooked showbags. And so they're not going to they're not going to melt in at the temperatures using a circulator. But they're not necessarily rated for heating. And so I can't guarantee that there's no sort of classes there, I can't guarantee you the plastic safety at temperature. That's it. I've done it many times. And basically, it's very good for things like cvwd for low temperature and cvwd for for insurance purposes. But don't do it if you don't trust the bag. What's the problem with air in the bag while cooking suevey or low temp, there's two problems with air. One is that it can cause an issue where it doesn't heat as quickly. And so in shorter cook things, it can, it can lead to spots that aren't cooked as well. In very, very long cook things in the middle of the air stops the heat penetration, you can get growth of lactobacillus in the place where there was an air pocket, if it doesn't heat quickly enough, and then you can get off flavors. The main problem is if there's air in the bag, and then you store it for a long time, there's oxygen in the bag and you can develop rancidity in the in the fat. And that's bad, right? So that's bad. But in the short term, it's not a problem at all. And finally, if I use low temps Ziploc approach, which you can see on cooking issues.com I give step by step with pictures, what limitations safety etc are there with regards to length of time in the bath or temperature used as the bagging is not quite a vacuum. There are no limitations on time. I've done limit I've only cooked up to three days in one but there's no limitations. I wouldn't do anything. It's cooked higher than about 70 degrees C. But that's minerals, not vegetables, almost anything else I would cook in a ziplock bag. It's a great technique. I do that all the time. Thanks. I love the show. I'm looking forward to checking out Booker and DAX next time in New York City. Natasha here it is please pick on Dave more on the air so does not seem so one sided drop by the bar and then you'll see it Wow. What see what you picking on me live. Maybe you have to come early. I'm mainly at the bar Amelia at the bar early. Do you know what I mean? We so many other interesting questions that I didn't get a chance to do today we have one I'm