Hello, everybody, and welcome to a brand new series on heritage radio network called the culinary call sheet where we give a peek into the back kitchen of culinary media. I'm your host, April Jones,

and I'm your co host, Darren bresnitz. Part of why we started the show was to offer an unofficial mentorship for anyone who's interested in learning about all aspects of food and video, whether that's TV, social media online, or just something you want to do for fun.

Absolutely what was once niche or a little silly, as I'm sure you remember, Darren, when we started out, this man has now become such a massive playing field for so many creatives using food as the medium.

It's something that has driven us professionally and personally, for so many years. What excites me the most about this show is that we're going to sit down with some of the industry leaders to hear how they made it and what drew them into this industry.

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We'll be covering everything from how to style your food, to how to license IP, to developing your own ideas, and some tips from the masters of how to host your own show.

Yeah, it's a little bit of conversation, how to and how do you do the things that you do in color media, which I'm so excited about? I love so many of the guests that are coming on this season. We have talent from Food Network from Vice media eater refinery 29,

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broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn, you're listening to heritage Radio network.com.

Hello, and welcome to cooking issues. I'm Dave Arnold, your host and quickly she's coming to you live every tuesday from about 12 to 1245 in the back of Roberta's pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn on the heritage Radio Network joined as always, with my co host, Natasha hammer, Lopez. Hello. Hi. On this fine Tuesday morning. How are you today? Fine, good. Good. All right. Today's cooking issues number 60 1am. I dead. Oh, by the way, today is a happy birthday to my mom issue. My mom's birthday today. Happy birthday. Yeah, right, man. It's not like she listens. Linda Dr. Linda J. Addonizio. She runs a heart transplant program at Columbia University, the pediatric heart transplant program. Yeah, she's badass anyway. Today's show is sponsored by modernist pantry, which they should as they sponsor every show, this show should just be sponsored by them all the time. Anyway, all right. Today's show is sponsored by modernist pantry supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies but only a few grams are needed per application? Modernist pantry has a solution they offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that makes sense for the home cook or enthusiast and most only cost around five bucks, saving you time, money and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloid pH buffers or even meat glue, you'll find it a modernist pantry and it needs something that they don't carry just as Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. With inexpensive shipping to any country in the world modernist pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Modernist pantry now carries three types of JoAnn gum including Calico gel eFlow Aysel, Joanne and Coco gel Lt. 100 Hire so Joanne, what's the other one? high, low, high low and the mix. Fran says something called Joanne or Jelani or whatever he calls it in the Spanish stuff. And what it is it's a mix of the hiatal gum and the low basal gel and gum. So for those of you that don't well, I'll finish to think first of all get into fans of cooking issues that place an order of $35 or more before next week's show will get a free package of Joanne simply use the promo code ci 61 When placing your order online at modernist pantry.com Visit modernist pantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs. Okay, so, Joanne, right. It's interesting because it's it's one of the newer hydrocolloid, it's a product of microbial fermentation and it's made by Kelco CP Kelco paper, our old intern Piper now is working for CP Kelco. Because it's a family business, he moved out to California. Next true, he was either about you or he just moved out to California. Now he took the job. Anyway, he's working for CP Gogo. So the cool thing about Joanne is this one gentleman can be used for certification because it requires calcium to set. So if you have very, very pure water, or you use what's called a sequester, which binds with the calcium, you can do scarification I don't really like certification says Now what interests me. But what is cool about gelatin is it has a very good mouthfeel has very good flavor release. And you use it in very small quantities to get a fairly firm gel, which means that you're not going to mask flavors a lot. The other cool thing about gel n is that once you make the gel, you can boil it and it's not going to go away. So really, really hot gels. People use gelatin also, the cool thing is that the Hazel, Joanne is very rubbery and stretchy and bouncy, and the lowercase o gelatin is very brittle. And by combining the two, you can get any kind of texture in between that you want jelly and also makes very good fluid gels. We have a caller Oh caller you're on the air.

Hi there. My name is John. I've called it in once before. I know you last couple weeks, you've been talking about hunters and how they should really get an immersion circulator to cook their cook their kills. So I mentioned that to a hunter buddy of mine, and he's actually his dad actually got a deer last night. So I'm wondering if you have any specific recommendations as far as what your what preparation and stuff and it sounds like the most likely cut that he's gonna get out of this is? You said the rear so it'd be like a ham, I guess out of the hindquarter area.

But as he is he's splitting it with other people. You

mean that the Yeah, it's like he's splitting it with him and his dad.

So he's getting the so his dad's taking the lines and all that, huh?

Yes, I think the line is probably the best part. So he's getting a ham cut.

How old is the deer is very young.

I don't know how old it is. It's a buck so so they're worried it might be a little bit gamey.

Right? And that's one of the reasons I asked because cooking low temp isn't going to take any of the game Enos out of the meat, right. So like for instance, if you get like, you know, a very, very young deer like the liver is good, but it goes incredibly livery and older deer. I don't see. So for meat that is gamey tendency is when you cook it, the longer you cook it, the more you accentuate that kind of game Enos. Right. So then the other question is kind of, and how old the animal is, is going to determine roughly how tough the meat is. Right? Right. So if you like game Enos right now, in general, the deer is not going to be very fatty. So even a young tender deer, if you overcook it at shot, you know what I'm saying? Because it's going to dry out. So here are the basic parameters. Typically, in a gaming animal, the longer you cook it, the more game you gets. Now, if you liked that gave me taste, it's not necessarily a problem. All right, the more connective tissue that's in an animal, the longer you need to cook it to tenderize it at a given temperature, right. And the less fat is in an animal, the drier it's going to get the instant you overcook it. So these are the three things you have to play with. Now for low temp, like on a deer loin or something like that, I like low like 5556 Celsius, right? And you don't need to cook it that long. Now the question is, how long if you're going to use those cooking temperatures? How long do you need to cook the different muscles in the hind quarter to get them to be tender? It's probably going to be a while in which case it's going to be gamey. You know, I would recommend

like so I know he does cut these things like steaks. I mean, he says he basically is cutting he said he's cutting steaks out of the ham area. So I think he treats them much like he would something from the lion

right i mean, i Bad Bag him and butter, I wouldn't assault them because you might have to cook them for a long time. And if you cook them for a long time, you're gonna lose some of the juiciness if they're pre salted. I would bag them in butter without any oil or whatever. But you know saying is not going to affect the flavor in a negative way. I would not add salt. Until the secondary process. You can see it beforehand if you want it. Bagot and then if you want to cook it like a steak, he has in his mind, he has to come up with what he thinks the equivalent steak is right. So I'll give you some examples. Like a skirt steak. If you're only going to cook it for like 30 minutes, you want to cook a skirt steak and 57. If you're going to cook a skirt steak for four hours, low temp right, then you're going to want to go down to 5556 Celsius because it's going to tend to rise over that and it's going to taste better at those lower temperatures. This makes sense. Yep, awesome. Also, you're not going to want to cut it too thin or you're going to ruin all of your good work when you do the syrup. See one of the ways that people do game meats a lot even in the hind quarter, right. Like for instance of headlines In meat this way and bear meat this way, they'll cut very, very thin steaks almost like your pork chops used to be. And then and then they'll just high heat Panem real quick. And it'll basically, the fact that the meat is tough and overcooked is going to be ameliorated by the fact that you have the nice taste from the searing, and it's cut so thin that your teeth are going to be able to make it through anyway, but that's not what we're looking for. Right, we're looking to actually cook the meat properly, so you're gonna want to cut a relatively thick steak. So if he's saying he stay cutting, you want to find out kind of what thickness he's going for, I would go on the thicker side like you would for regular, like a good beef steak, and then just run a test with a small cube and see how tender it gets. If you cook it at, let's say, 55 for eight hours, do you know what I'm saying? And then drill, okay, yeah, just see, like, as a ballpark start, just take a small cube of it without searing it, because I don't want to know anything about what happens, I want to know what happens to the tenderness and the flavor of the meat itself. Do that and see whether it goes if it's mushy, it means you've cooked it too long. If it's not tender, it means you haven't cooked it long enough. If it's very gamey, try to up the temperature a degree and chop the time down by a lot. And if it's, you know, if it's just if it's just under cooked for your tastes, then obviously, you know, raise a tap. And if it's similarly, if it's overkill for your tastes lowered a little bit, don't go below about 54 54.4 Celsius, if you're going to cook it for a long time, just for safety reasons. And you're not going to want to go above 57. So like that's your whole range of cooking right there.

Perfect. Okay, cool. Well experiment with that, then,

can you when you're done, you can ask me the question when you're done. Would you please write or call and tell us what happened?

Sure. Yeah, maybe I'll take some pictures too. I'm just thinking about. So you know, I did a dinner this weekend with some friends and my wife just loves, you know, steak tenderloin. So that's what I did. And that's, you know, a crowd pleaser, it's, you know, easy to do pity five hour, hour and a half. And, you know, it's nice and tender, sear it off. The one time I have tried different cuts of steak, I think I was a New York Strip, I basically use the same technique. And I know that, you know, from your charts and stuff, you know, I think New York Strip is considered a tender cut. So that's pretty much the same technique I applied. But it was really tough. And I don't know if that was a function of just not a very good cut of meat, or do I need to cook a cup like that longer?

Okay, so a strip depending on well, you know, strip does have that piece of cartilage running underneath the fat line right up at the at the top, but you're not talking about that you're talking about

the whole Yeah, the whole hunk in general, I think was kind of just not very, not very tender.

What temperature do you use?

It's been a while, but I think it was basically 55. You know, what you've medium rare.

55 is a fine temperature for strip meats, great temperature for rib. For instance, it's a fine temperature for for, you know, ribeye. But the, you might want to take the strip up to 56 or just couldn't just cook it longer, I think, you know, a strip. In general, when we cook strips, I like to cook them at least two hours at 50 to soften them up. And actually I think they're kind of at their optimum at around four to four hours, they're not going to go gamey on you and you're not going to break them down too much. So I would say a 55, which is a good number, I would cook it for about four hours, no salt beforehand, otherwise, it's going to lose some of its texture. And I would then drop the temperature of a circulator. 250. Okay, for about half hour or so, just to let it between half hour and 45 minutes to let it the temperature in the center of the state come down to 50. And then just scare the bejesus out of the outside.

And why you just dropped the temperature so you don't over cook it when you sear

it thing go. Okay, yeah, that's the only reason. And you know, if you have like, for instance, I did this just last night is I cooked a whole bunch of steaks on Sunday in a bag, unsalted ribs steaks at 55. And then I had one leftover because somebody canceled on me. And so I just left it in the bag, and then I heated it up last night, I threw it cooked on Saturday, rather, I threw it in a in the circulator. But I put my retheme at 50. Write, read through it for 35 minutes, and then sear it right so you're not going to have any safety issues because you're only keeping it a 50 for a very short amount of time. And the rest of the time it was kept in the safe zone. And then you can flash it off. So if you if you don't want to worry about exactly, you know, dropping it at the right time and you're going to cook it ahead of time, then you can just do your return at 50 and then sear it off and you're not gonna have any problems. Right. Great. All right. Thanks for calling much. Let know how the deer came out. We'll do keep up the good work. Super. Thank you. Alright, so back to jellen 21 one. Yeah, well, let me finish the jellen Before we go to break anyway, so if I had something to tell you about that too, but but the steak, oh, you know what my stepfather says I speak very, very quickly. Is that true? It's very true. I speak what he says I speak more quickly on the radio than I actually do in the real life. Is that true?

I fear if I open my mouth before I say something, you're gonna cut me off right before I say it. So that asked us to

be that's a confirmation. Yeah. Anyway, whatever. Whatever the hell wants to talk show it on the radio. I'm going to my unintelligible anyway, okay. Okay, so Joanne, so So Joe The other cool thing Joanne does is it makes a fluid gel and a fluid gel is something where you make a gel and you share it into very very small particles the particles tend to kind of adhere to each other when it's at rest and they form a gel it was acts like a gel and then when you share it in your mouth or by pouring it or spooning in or anything like that it reverts to the properties of a liquid mixing fluid gel gel and great stuff. We like it a lot that's what we use for our ice cream that we I'm bleeding. My nose is bleeding, but not through not through the nose hole the bridge of the nose in case you guys are getting grossed out that there's like blood shooting out of my nostrils while I'm talking it's not true I scraped the bridge of my nose is what mustache is telling me anyway. Now Anastacia has an image of me blowing blood out of my nose hole anyway. nose holes so gel in really good stuff. We use it to make our hyper creamy touchable ice cream anyway, with that call and your questions to send 1-849-721-2871 a 4972128 We're gonna go to our first commercial break cooking issues

out love that song right? What's that noise? You don't like Stevie Wonder I got a glitter and that's a new one. I've got glitter in my throat. All right. Welcome back to Cooking issues at stash. It was fun having Talbot on the show last week when it was fun guest you guys enjoy the Talbot over there in the booth? Yeah, thumbs up. Yeah, he's awesome. He's good, man. How was his other show that he recorded.

He's good. He's pulled a marathon and he's here all day.

I know he was just sitting out in the bird is like, you know, with his earphones and being totally antisocial or man and I'm like, oh my god, I was gonna come on the show. slept here. I'm not even sure he did in the morning or in the evening or both. After all the shows, you know? Yeah. Just slept couldn't make it back to Philly. Exactly. Nice. Nice. Okay, so call into question is 27184972128 That's 718-497-2128 gonna go to some rate. Writing questions, right is that we call them writing questions. Can you give me the glitter noise again? I'm just getting over something too. So I have the same laugh my grandpa used to, which is always like coughing. It's like start laughing and and coughing. So it reminds me reminds me of being mean to people because it makes me so I'm trying Who's this from anyway? Do we know this is fun. This question is his name's Blake. Blake Anderson writes in I'm trying to make a children's app I own but the liquid separates out after an hour in the fridge. The recipe says to chill for four to six hours I'm using for egg yolks very fresh and very local. One quarter cup a cup of sugar. One half to one cup of red wine. I don't usually use red wine anyway. Marcella Oh really? Blake we're gonna come back to this caller you're on the air Hello. Were you lying to me in a session? Oh, hey caller you're on the air. Jax Hey, we lost him sorry Lawson. Weird nice Jack thanks man. Thanks bro. Okay so going back to Blake says have a young quarter cup sugar half cup to one cup red wine a drops a liquid he dropped a liquid ratio that didn't fix the problem and Blake you can get a man or woman to want Man Man Man. Dropping a liquid ratio did not fix the problem. I'm beating a mixer to a foam on a double boiler and mixing until the mixture cools to below 90 degrees Fahrenheit would adding less than help to better emulsify any advice to make a stable mixture alright Blake, I think I know you're probably not going to believe it. You ready for this? You're not going to believe it. First of all, is everyone one of my favorite things I loves that way and you like this stuff? especially, like over strawberries. It used to be I used to make this all the time I would, you know, I used to have like bottles of Marsala, just lying around the house just for this occasion. When a strawberry season, I'd cut up the strawberries, make a sample, you know, and pour that sumbitch right over the strawberries and eat it. That was dessert. It's a good dessert. Yeah, yes. Okay. Now, here's what you're doing wrong, I'll almost guaranteed because I used to do this to your undercooking, your Zabba yawn. So what you're doing is you're you're super worried. And by the way, here's the procedure, folks, you put your egg yolks, your liquid you sugar in a bowl, you're whisked the heck out of them, and you put it over a heat source, and you keep whipping until it becomes foamy and thickens. Right, then it becomes a creamy sauce. Now everyone, when they're making Saba, you want to petrified that they're going to overcook the egg yolks, and thereby make it taste grainy and like scrambled eggs. Now, you're probably if you're being careful and you keep beating, it is not going to happen. Here's the issue. Example Yellen is going to start getting foamy and look like it's built up a texture, just from the fact that you're so afraid that you're going to curl it that you're beating the crap out of it with a whisk. So you're forming a nice foamy mixture with your Zabba urine but you're not cooking it enough, then when you pull it off and put it in the fridge to cool down over time that foam separates. And you get a layer of liquid sitting at the bottom because it doesn't kind of keep self emulsified the way that let's say a crema glaze does when it's undercooked, right, which is you know, similar, but instead of using a wine, you're using a milk right and usually not as high of an egg yolk ratio. So what you're doing here is you're making something that looks off for me but it's not cooked yet, it's going to separate I've done this many times I guarantee that's your problem. Do not be afraid, make sure that your mix isn't just foamed up, but that the actual liquid is thick in your in your Zabba yawn. And I guarantee you this is going to solve your problem, you'll be able to chill it down just fine. But here's another thing everyone gets. I saw some I was looking up on the internet's and I saw some recommendations on cooking it and they're like, don't let it get too hot. Don't let it get too hot. And all all of the recommendations that I saw on the internet, about the temperature at which the egg yolks are going to cut on those that was ever yo and are all off. And they're all low. Invariably, I don't know what the heck these guys are reading their temperatures with or how much of a carryover they're getting. But the information out there, it's just not right. I in fact, don't even make the thing people like don't let the don't let your pan touch the liquid in the double boiler or everything's gonna go to hell in a handbasket. Also not true, it's a matter of just being careful. Now the larger amount you're making, the more careful you have to be about regulating your heat source because you can't keep the thing moving as quickly with your hands. But for small normal quantities, couple of egg yolks, you know, you can do it, I do it in a bowl with a smooth bottom. You don't want something with a lot of edges on the bottom because you're not gonna be able to get your whisk into it effectively. And you might get some local curdling there. But I make the thing directly over a flame. I have like a bowl with like a loop in it that I hold the loop with a heat proof thing and I make it directly over a flame. I don't even use anything if you're worried about cooling down getting carried over have a like a like a pan of a cold water next to it to stick it in and beat it a couple of times. As soon as it starts cooling down. It's not going to curdle on you, you're going to be fine. So I think your problem is just fear of curdling get over your fear of curling and your Sabbioni is going to be delicious. That's my recommendation. If you are having like real issues, that is something that I don't understand it is possible to stabilize it so much. I wouldn't use less than I do starch. But I wouldn't do it because it's going to muddy the flavors ever. Yawn is so pure and delicious and light and ethereal that it just shouldn't be messed with under under any circumstances. What are your thoughts on this? It's good. All right. Johnny Kirk writes in and says I had a question about preserving lemons through cvwd. In my experience Preservation through the use of lemons through the use of a chamber machine takes an equal amount of time as the traditional method of preservation might up through my process using a multi vac C 200 which is just like multi vac C 200. For those of you that don't know what the hell that is. It's a standard medium size restaurant vacuum machine. Make standard. Standard, okay, is as follows. Place the container with the lemons, the salt and the lemon juice in the vacuum machine and let it get down to about 20 millibar which is fair to mill and vacuum guys back on the phone. He's back on the phone. All right color, new color, new color. We lost the old guy I feel so bad now anyway. Caller you're on the air.

Guys. Question about metal cell solutions. Okay, using them. I've been playing with them lately and have had what I would call absolutely no luck. Really, really? stinky, nasty chemically even like fishy smells coming off of this stuff. You know, 1% solutions. I tried to try to make some Marang you know you're talking about Miranda a couple of weeks ago. Oh hey, that's cool. I'll try that I tried to make sort of like a tweet. You know, sort of crispy I wanted to make a tamarind crispy piece. And man that stuff was so, bow. I must be doing something horribly wrong.

Okay, help me. Let's start which Metacell Do you have?

So I have tried both the F 50 and the E four m. Okay, I tried to

if the E series. I don't like the E series, give me honest, they don't I don't even know that they make the E Series anymore because their factory blowed blew up number of years ago, maybe they started making again. But the E Series is typically used for making like the wheels and the chips. Is that what you're doing? Because they're film formers?

That's what I was trying to do. Yeah,

I don't like them. Much. I know a lot of people don't like them. I went to a restaurant, which shall remain nameless, it was Moto, and like half the dishes had on it. Like a Tweel formed with Metacell, one of the E series, it's easy for what you foresee for him. For him. Okay. So that's also mean, the good news about E four m is that for m, the number right is four, and then the N stands for 1000. So the viscosity of that one is like 4000 times greater than what a one would be. So f 50 versus F four m, you're looking at a factor of two to 40, like like at, like 80 times thicker a given thing, okay, so you should be able to use a relatively minuscule amount of it to provide a thickening power. But the problem is that the E Series is good at film forming, but it's not very good at gelling. And it's not very good at mean, I don't think it's a very good Whipper. It's mainly used for that film forming thing, but you need to have a certain amount of that in there. To make the film forming thing. Anytime the metal cell percentage gets to be one, you're going to start tasting the awful Metro sell stuff unless you're using some very, very, very strong flavors. So when I'm using a 50, a 50, is the one that makes really good foams that then makes them Marang. When you're using a 50 if you have an extremely, extremely strong flavor, like passionfruit, for instance, passion fruit, or you know what some passion for variant will obscure. Santa sounds nasty, right? Well obscure the metal cell flavor up to about a percent or a little over. That said, in general, if you in a whipped product in a marina Marang I don't taste the Metacell when it's down at like 0.8%, so eight grams per kilo, but you start adding like, like 1.2 grams per kilo over a percent like that. And you're definitely going to get an off flavor from the Metacell. That's like, and that's one of the problems with it now. How much we're using with the F 50. And what flavor we're using that was the tamarind? Yep.

And I had started at just under a percent I was going 4.6 And then I was paging through Modernist Cuisine and those guys use it often at you know, 1.2 minutes or so. So I upped it and I I tried that in tamarind I tried that in a in a roasted cauliflower as trying to put those two together. And it just, it just kept coming through. I also had it problem problems with it seeming like it was separating, right, which I assume is a dispersion problem.

Yeah, a lot of a lot of Metacell if you do you have a Vita prep. No, I don't Yeah. So Metacell is kind of a pain to to disperse. So one of the unless you have like a very good blender. So one way to nicely disperse, disperse Metacell is to mix it with quantity of corn syrup or sugar and then blend it in to keep the particles separated. Another way is to go hot cold. So put the metal cell and it's something very hot because it won't dissolve and stuff. It's very hot. And then like, like blend it and then add like cold or chilled stuff to drop the temperature and then it'll hydrate. And then the last resort you'll notice in a lot of Metacell recipes, if you look at them, they'll basically tell you to make the mixture and then let it sit overnight. And a lot of hydration problems with Metacell can be can be fixed by by letting it sit overnight. Now the difference in taste of Metacell between I look I don't know whether this is true or not. I know the thickening power of of these products is not linear. In other words, adding doubling the amount doesn't double the thickness. It's it's a lot more than that. And I have a feeling and I don't know why it should be case, but it's my feeling that tastes wise with Metacell. It's the same thing. So point two is going to taste like a lot more than point six. But my feeling is point six isn't going to be enough to get a nice stable Marang. You foam out of it, right? So I would say try like, point 8.9, but not above. The other thing I'm going to say is that is that it's a whipping agent in that it actually helps to stabilize air, you know, foams. But you're also going to want some solids in there that provide a structure. So in when we use fruit purees it's basically pectin mixtures that are providing that structure to you. So if you don't a lot of people add bulking agents like maltodextrin to their stuff to get them to whip up to a nice to have like to have structure left when you've dehydrated, if that makes sense. Because not enough Metacell there to provide the structure. So you what you're looking at the Metro cell is basically a a whipping aid. And also it's holding the structure Intellicus dehydrate, but you don't want Metacell being the primary physical structure of the Merengues that you're making. I think you're going to end up with those kind of a taste problems. Got it? That makes sense. Several things to try. Yep. All right. And let us know, let us know what happens. I just don't like those if those e 15. Or e forum films, films that much, except me like some people do like them. So don't write in and say that I'm a jerk for saying it's just not my preference. I'm allowed, right. Absolutely. All right. Thanks for what

I did the kombu wrap duck this weekend we talked about last week.

Was it delicious? Good. Awesome. Nice. I got that trick. I got that trick from nails and it's delicious.

Yeah, I'm gonna wrap everything I'm gonna wrap, you know, brownies in combos from now on?

Yeah, no, it's good stuff. Yeah, great. All right. All right. Thank you. Okay.

Is there another caller? Jack?

Yes. Oh, caller you're on the air.

I just wanted to say thank you guys been hitting it for 60 shows. Appreciate it.

Oh, hey, thanks. Thanks for calling.

In the kombu wrap to ahi tuna that I went and caught was amazing. Yeah. Perfect.

How long? How long was it wrapped?

I wrapped it with some Combi with it was just down the ocean from it. So yeah, it was pretty good. Pretty dang amazing. Appreciate it.

How long do you leave it overnight. Without you left? I

left it for about a day. And then we just did sashimi with it. But um, my main question is I'm making hot sauce. And right now I'm using my my VitaMix blender. But I need to obviously move that forward a little bit. What's the next thing I'm gonna look forward to make? Like a like a Siracha style hot sauce?

I don't have any equipment. Oh, I don't have any recipes off the top of my well what kind of problems?

Oh, equipment. I want to know what the what homogenizers said or what I need to do.

Oh me you want it even finer than you can get it into vitae prep.

But it's just I need to make more.

Oh, sighs Well, they make, like how much do you need to make? Like, what are we talking about?

I'd like to do five gallons at a time.

Wow. Five gallons at a time. Yes. I'm gonna go into business here. Yeah, there's a que we think they're I mean, they make obviously large style. Things that are not going to get it as fine as a Vita prep does. But

they're looking at large Ritter Staters, but those are expensive. Oh, they're

very expensive. You might want to look there's there's basically something in between a blender and a food processor that I haven't seen much in, in America. But in Europe, they have Melot and I forget who makes who makes them. But they're basically like, two food processor blades stacked up, but in like a five gallon drum and they sit on the floor and their price for restaurants. I don't know how fine they can go. But I had some chefs from Australia and Europe told me that they're like, the greatest thing since since sliced bread. And what's cool is they tilt so you put your top load your stuff, hit go and then and then it takes it out and I'm not exactly sure what level of you know particle breakdown because the thing

how many microns we can get you right?

Yeah, because I mean rotor Staters are there, they're expensive and they're not good at breaking down large large things because they have to fit into the gaps. So you're gonna need to do some initial breakdown anyway. And if you want to go really badass, they have basically in line like everything they have in line in line rotor stator jobs where basically you pre pulp your stuff and then you stick it through the rotor stator and it just goes through and gets completely annihilated.

But not that big to begin with. So I just need to break down those hard seats.

Yeah. And ever. Yeah. And I'm like, you want to actually physically disintegrate seeds, I don't think that this thing is going to I don't think that this that the robot robot who like thing is going to work on it. The other good thing is if you're actually going to get a big piece of equipment unless you guys gonna do a straight eBay, a eBay buy, what you do is you call them and you say, here's what I'm looking to do who's got one, and then you go and you look at it, and you see what you know what kind of it can do. And once you make the next leap into like more expensive equipment, they're usually okay with that, because they know that they're gonna get a customer out of you, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah, like, like the spending 1000, maybe 1500 bucks to get everything going. But

it's gonna be more than that for that, like, you know, if you're making five gallons at a time, so I'm trying to think of like custom solutions.

Even a gallon, I might be able to live with the right now the right approach, just it's it's a lot of work. Well, they

make a much bigger Vita prep. They make one that's I think three times the capacity that I think does like, like four liters or something like that. And that one's in that range of like, you know, 1500 bucks or something like that.

So big vital.

Yeah, it's much bigger. I haven't used it. But

one more quick question. First thing is, how do you measure garlic SNESs. And we have school units for heat. capsules, capsaicin. How do we measure garlic Enos?

Well, it's an interesting and a difficult question. Because garlic is not stable, like garlic chemistry is very, very,

the Leeson breaks down and all

right, and so I don't know, at what point it's considered stable. Like it what like how many, you know, weeks or months, it's considered stable, but you're also measuring the pundits, he's measured in different ways. It's been, and I can't even keep in my head, like the minute I read it, it goes out. But Eric Eric block, I think his book on garlic and other alliums. I mean, it's just really a lot of complicated stuff to wade through. And so it's a, you know, great thing about obsession is that it is, you know, it's fairly stable. And so it's easy to characterize and Scovilles fairly easy for people to measure. Similarly, with hops, you know, IBUs, international bitterness units are fairly easy to kind of get a hold on what's going on, and they make a lot of sense. Garlic. On the other hand, I don't know what the what the pungency rating of garlic is, it's probably measured as like a free percentage of like Allen or whatever it is, you know what I mean? But I don't I've never heard of anyone reading it that way, in terms of trying to make a standard which is a pain because different kinds of garlic have different levels of like, radically different levels of pungency. And so it's gonna be difficult to control that way. Right, right. Right. You know, I mean, like,

I appreciate again,

yeah, I have a bunch of hardneck garlic I just got from the farm, that Thanksgiving farm that cherry Casella works and it's, it's baby twice is it's twice as powerful in terms of that awesome garlic flavor as like the normal crap I get out of the supermarket.

But we picked up some from the Berkeley seedbank it's, I think, was the Moroccan garlic or something weird like that. But holy crap, is this powerful.

I know. And maybe it's too powerful to my wife who's not used to it. I love it. But it's interesting. Let next time I speak to McGee, which is actually going to be in two days, because I'm going up to the Harvard to give another shot. He's gonna be there. Yeah, he's gonna be there. Yeah, I'll ask him about it, because that's the kind of thing he's interested in too. And if I asked him about it, I'll try to remember talk about on the show next time.

We'll ask him about Popping sorghum to

Popping sorghum. Why was we talking what was I talking about? Not here because I just had a conversation about this with somebody herbal

inconsistency. I love this stuff, but I can't get consistent. I think it's just my distributors are different ages of forum.

Right different and different, probably moisture contents, you can incorporate you can calibrate grain, it takes a while, but you can calibrate grain grain to a specific moisture content. I don't have the protocols in top of my head, but it's probably moisture content, your problem. Ah, so can I read moisturizing? Yeah, it just takes a while. It just takes a while like you're carrying the bag or something? Yeah, I don't know. Like you look, you look up on Google like Google procedures for because it's called temperately temper grains out to particular moisture levels for industrial process. Because, you know, for instance, for puffing or extruding if it's not exactly the same every time like everything goes to hell.

Right. Right. Right. Yeah, I noticed that one. Well, I can talk to you all day, but I really appreciate the answers.

Thank you. Call it calling if you have any more results. All right. Now, where was it preserved? Lemons? Yep. All right. So preserve lemons. We're talking about Johnny curves, preserved lemons and basically he puts them in the vacuum machine, salt, lemon juice lemons gets down to about 20 millibar, I'm assuming he puts cuts into the lemons because usually people put cuts into the lemons. And he does this about three times and then he bags them and seals them. So you just put them with juice and salt in the container vacuum without a bag and then and then vacuum down in a bag. It seems to make sense to decrease oxygen level might speed the process of preservation. Also, if you could help me understand the point some people freeze their lemons and preserving what's the point of that I would appreciate it. Okay, so here's what's going on. When you vaccinate the the reason you want to vacuum bag, preserve things whether it be kimchi, sauerkraut preserve lemon is that they like to be an oxygen free environment, it's not that speeds it is that you can get off flavors. If there's oxygen and the bacteria that are growing there want to be anaerobic anyway. So vacuum bagging is a good way to not have to worry about waiting things down in jars and making sure they're covered with their own juices and things like that. So that like when you're making pickles or, or anything like that, there's always instructions to like, load it down, cover it to make sure they're covered. And that's to exclude air. If you bag in a vacuum machine, you get rid of that problem. Another great thing about vacuum machine is the vacuum machine by doing kind of rapid infusion of any liquids, it's there can help get the salt and whatnot into the fleshy part of the fruit much faster, right. And basically just kickstart those operations very quickly. Now, the point of freezing a preserved lemon preparation like Alex Talbot does, for instance, in his ideas and food cookbook is you're breaking down that by repetitive freeze thawing, you're breaking down and tenderizing the texture of the of the product, it's going to speed any sort of preservation if you are going to do a longer keep to keep getting to have them ferment a little bit. And it's also going to change the flavor of the fruit a little bit. And we've done this with with our frozen and thawed lemons that we think I think they smell more like Bergamot like like Earl Grey, after they've been frozen and thawed. So that's what that's what that's all about. But a traditional preserved lemon is a function of time because there are yeas and I believe it's like symbiotic yeast and like I think acetic acid bacteria I think yeast make the alcohol very salt tolerant acid tolerant yeast make small quantities of alcohol which are then digested by bacteria which I think make acetic acid but this is coming up my memory. I didn't have time to research this morning. I think that's what's going on. And so you know, a preserve a traditional preserved lemon pickle is going to be a lot different from anything that you kind of shortchange or quick cut. Should we take one more commercial break? No, no, you have to finish. Jack do we have to finish? Can we take one more commercial break? Take another break. Alright, we'll take another break. We'll come back call question is 27184972128 That's 718-497-2128.