Hello, everybody, and welcome to a brand new series on heritage radio network called the culinary call sheet where we give a peek into the back kitchen of culinary media. I'm your host, April Jones,

and I'm your co host, Darren bresnitz. Part of why we started the show was to offer an unofficial mentorship for anyone who's interested in learning about all aspects of food and video, whether that's TV, social media online, or just something you want to do for fun.

Absolutely what was once niche or a little silly, as I'm sure you remember, Darren, when we started out, this man has now become such a massive playing field for so many creatives using food as the medium.

It's something that has driven us professionally and personally, for so many years. What excites me the most about this show is that we're going to sit down with some of the industry leaders to hear how they made it and what drew them into this industry.

With 20 years in the culinary production game ourselves. We're hoping we can give through these conversations an insider's view into personal stories from the field, as well as an in depth behind the scenes look into some of the most popular food programming. In today's evolving culinary media landscape.

We'll be covering everything from how to style your food, to how to license IP, to developing your own ideas, and some tips from the masters of how to host your own show.

Yeah, it's a little bit of conversation, how to and how do you do the things that you do in color media, which I'm so excited about? I love so many of the guests that are coming on this season. We have talent from Food Network from Vice media eater refinery 29,

we've met some of the best people in the world both in front of and behind the camera. And we're bringing them all together to share their stories, their delicious adventure and their unique journey into this crazy world.

So to be the first to hear our episodes when they launched this fall, go to wherever podcasts are streaming and hit subscribe and make sure to give us a follow at the Culinary call sheet on Instagram.

The following is a public service announcement from just food. Help bring live chickens into food challenge communities through your donations to the just Food City chicken Project 2011. The city chicken project would not be possible without the volunteer hours donations large and small, and the vibrant energy and ideas of the communities we work with. Just food is a nonprofit organization that connects New York City communities and local and urban farmers with the resources and support they need to make fresh, locally grown food accessible to all to donate search on kickstarter.com for just food and find their city chicken project. For more information on just food visit just food.org or call 212-645-9880 That's 212-645-9880 Let's keep making new york city a better place to live and eat.

Hello, and welcome to cooking issues. Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you live on the heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from 12 to 1245 here in the studio with Mr Atia hammer Lopez and special unannounced guest caller in Harold McGee. So we're gonna is Harold there.

Good morning, Dave.

Good morning. Good morning. How you doing? So listen, I didn't tell any guys out there that he was going to be on. We're going to I actually told him can you just answer these two questions but I'm gonna try and keep them on as long as I can. So if you we if a caller calls in while you take it

you know I'd love to maybe get this phone connection fixed because I'm hearing like every other millisecond of your of what you're saying

all right, why don't we do this? Jack? Why don't you read reestablish that connection? I'll just do the top of the show. Kind of crud alright. We'll reestablish Harold's questions calling your questions to 718-497-2128 that's 718-497-2128 and Odin star should say is going to be Texas themed songs in the middle because I just got back from Texas. already. I did choose them already. By the way, today's show brought to you by city chicken right which is mustaches next band I think city chicken. Right. But on the on the subject of raising livestock in the city. Something I've been interested in a long, long time is micro livestock the believes the FAO put out a book on micro livestock maybe about 15 years ago, 1015 years ago, and I read it with much interest. Did you notice Dasha that there are breeds of livestock that although not as efficient at producing meat or milk as the larger breeds of livestock can be raised in situations where you don't have enough land to produce even one so if you you don't have enough pasture to raise even more On cow, you can raise two micro cows. And those two micro cows will produce 1/3 of the milk of a regular cow. But you couldn't even raise a regular cow, right like that. So what I want is if anyone's willing to raise some sort of micro livestock illegally in the city, I think we should chip together and buy them one. Like buy it like buy like a couple, few people have pet pigs, but like, what if you had like a micro eating pig? You know what I mean? Or like, you know, and they raised it in their apartment. You think we should support that or no, no, we're not sure. Take on another take on another project. No, it's not a project. Someone else is gonna do it. All we have to do is buy him the animal anyway. Something to think about? Do we have Harold back on the line? Hills back. Very good. Is that connection better Harold?

It is. Yeah, so far. Well hope that since it's my cell phone number. I hope that connection stays here.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Cell phone. I know you are you are also a victim of AT and T as am I right? Yes. Yes. I've got an email from them yesterday saying welcome to the new T 18. T. I hope this one works. All right. Okay, so the first question we had in was about legumes. It comes from Adam frost. And I guess he's out of the UK because he spells flavor with the UK kind of fashion. But he says Lagos and some grains have a slightly accurate vegetal taste when raw, but this dissipates after a certain amount of cooking up proportional to the size of the seed. Is this the work and or destruction of enzymes. Also, if you cook some starchy food again, grains and legumes for far too long, approximately 12 hours they can develop an off flavor that is difficult to describe. If you know what I'm talking about. Do you know what causes this? Now? I tried to figure out the answer on my own but I realized this is really Harold's you know, purview. Also, before I go, I didn't introduce Harold. For those for like the two people who might have ever listened to this who don't already know who Harold is. Harold McGee is the is the Grand Master of Science as it relates to making things delicious, wrote the seminal book on food and cooking first edition, right, which you need to go buy. Even if you have the new one, you need to go buy the old one, because it's quite different from the current on food and cooking. Both books have been, you know, since 84, I think, and the other ones since when, like 2004, the the the things that you need in your kitchen, if you want to help explain what's going on while you're cooking. It's like it's the reference work. If you get one book, get that one. That's kind of how it works. But you should also buy the old one. I'm oh, gee, Harold, by the way, I had the original before the new one came out. So I consider myself OG OG Harold fan, you also need to go on Bookfinder and pick up a copy of Curious Cook, which is going to teach you more in my opinion from knowing you for several years, kind of how Harold thinks when he's thinking about things, which is the most important thing to do when you're when you're trying to observe food closely and figure out what's going on. And so that's like the more personal book and, and the newest book is the key the keys to cooking, right? It's a good thing. And what that is is basically like short form, like how to get the answers quick on what's going on without having to delve into the depths of on food and cooking resets. Accurate.

Yes, and very generous. Thank you.

And the new book, which is not even scheduled, but the one I know he wants to write is like the next magnum opus, I don't know if I'm allowed to talk about this. But the next magnum opus, I think that's going to come out is and it could be, you know, a billion years I don't know, is something on tape, taste and flavor. And it's probably going to be the most difficult to if I had to write it, it'd be the most difficult of the one so far, because there's so much not known. And there's so much work being done. It's such a complicated subject. Would you say? That's fair? No,

no, that's absolutely right. And in fact that that's kind of in the background of these questions that you sent to me, right? Because they're both in their various ways about flavor, and how complicated it is to figure out what's going on in real foods,

which is why I knew you'd be on top of it. So what are your thoughts?

Well, so on this question about legume and grain flavor, it does turn out that the flavors of of legumes especially dried beans, and peas, and so on. Now, it's very distinctive, and it does have to do with very high levels of enzymes in the seed that break down fats and fatty related molecules, oils, phospholipids and things like that, that you find in the membranes of the cells, breaks them down into smaller pieces. Big molecules like fats and oils. They don't have intrinsic aromas of their own or flavors, but when you break them down into smaller molecules, then we can taste them and we can smell them. And so it turns out that characteristic flavors of those things do have to do with very high low rolls of certain fat breaking enzymes that generate lots and lots of six carbon and eight carbon molecules that have the flavor of kind of graphs and leaves and things like that on the one hand, and mushrooms, on the other hand, so in a way the the flavor of lectins in particular is leafy greens plus mushrooms combined together. And so Adams question about that that flavor is there for quite a while, but then it sort of dissipates during cooking. What happens during cooking is that at first, that encourages the action of those enzymes, so they actually generate more and more of these flavor compounds. But then with time the enzymes get killed by the heat. And then the heat also dry drives off those molecules forces them to react with other molecules. And so those particular qualities kind of fade into the background.

Ask Harold and ye shall receive, right? Have you ever experienced the cooking for a long time off flavors on starchy foods?

You know, not, I've never cooked just grains or beans by themselves for a long time, I certainly cooked and reheated pots of tea been dishes and that kind of thing. But that's different because you've got herbs and spices and other stuff in there. And that's going to change the the equation. So I've never actually done the experiment of cooking beans for 12 hours to see what happens to them. I don't really know offhand what sorts of molecules you would get, because that's essentially taking the process I just described and extending it for a long, long time. And so that's that's an experiment I have to do.

Right? I mean, I would guess the two choices are the waters slightly alkaline, and you're getting some sort of mild reaction that you perceive as an off flavor, because you don't want that readiness, or to you're getting some sort of fat oxidation or whatever fats are leftover. I don't know, what do you think?

Yeah, it could be those it could be that you're because at the same time that you're creating flavor, you're also losing it, because you're cooking it for so long, you know, the more volatile molecules are going to go away, and you're going to be left with the less volatile stuff. And so the balance of aromas is going to change. And maybe it's just going to be something that doesn't smell as much like beans or, or grains, as you expect them to

see you're like losing a masking flavor.

Yeah, yeah. But I don't think you know, Adam posed the question as it having to do with the starchiness of these particular foods, but they're seeds, which do have a lot of starch. I don't think the starch has much to do with it, except that it's possible that starch might be with the long cooking, the starch, grains break open, and you end up with with free starch, which ends up in the cooking liquid, eventually, that stuff may be binding some of the aroma molecules that certainly is known in the food science literature that amylose and amylopectin can actually bind aroma molecules, which then means that they're not available to our noses to smell. So that might be part of it as well.

Right. So you probably think it's not like a starch hydrolysis over time. That's done in the smaller things breaking down into something else.

Yeah, I, I kind of doubt it. But, but I don't know.

All right. Well, again, you are the perfect man to ask these questions. The second one, I thought you were perfect for being a San Franciscan, or what do you call yourself San Franciscans? What are you guys? From San Francisco?

Yeah, yeah, we don't have a clue. We need to develop a good term for that

rice a Roni eaters. Anyway, this question is on sourdough, which I know you've researched quite a bit, especially as regards its flavor compounds. And so this this one's for you from Christian SWANA. Paul, you think you pronounce that Swan Paul Swan poll. Do you think to me? Yeah, yeah. From New Zealand and we love the New Zealanders and the Australians especially because they have come up in force to say that the show today tonight or tonight today or whatever it is that was anti meat glue is a is a like tabloid farce. Maybe more on that later. If we have time. I doubt we will. He writes. I've read quite a bit about sourdough starters, and there seems to be a lot of different information about how temperatures and hydration levels affect the starter and also the final bread dough. Peter Reinhart is a well known author in the bread world says that a firmer starter promotes the production of lactic rather than acetic acid. Well instructions that come with a starter I bought because the one he raised himself died because he neglected it join the club question says exactly the opposite. The instructions also say that warmer temperatures encouraged lactic acid and cooler temperatures acetic I read elsewhere the putting the dough in the fridge halts yeast activity, while lactobacilli continue to produce acid. Could you please clear this up for me? And he maybe you want to handle that one? And then handle the second question, second prong of this after?

Yeah, because that is a different, different kind of question. But so he starts his question by saying there seems to be a lot of different pieces of information about how temperatures and hydration levels affect starter and final red dough. Boy, is that true that there's a lot of different pieces of information out there. So when I reviewed the literature, back in the early part of the century, 2000 2003 or so, for the second edition of my book, The lesson I drew at the time, was that cooler temperatures are actually and and firmer starters are better for the yeast. Because you know sourdough is essentially, you've got yeast that are providing the gas for leavening. But you also got bacteria that are generating a lot of the flavor including acids, which is why it's a sourdough. And some acid is good for flavor. And for other properties of the sourdough. But too much means that the yeast don't get a chance to generate enough carbon dioxide to give you a nice level and low. So you want the bacteria to do well. But you really want the yeast to do well, too. And the problem is that they the the acids of the bacteria inhibit the growth of the yeast. So there is this delicate balancing act in general between the yeasts and the and the bacteria, even before you get into issues of the difference between lactic acid and acetic acid, which are both acids. So on the question of the balance between the yeast and the bacteria, the lesson I took three or four years ago was that or I guess it's longer ago now than that 10 years ago. That lower temperatures, fermentation temperatures and firmer starters, gave the yeast a better chance of being there in enough numbers to give you a good dough. I took another look last night and this morning, and even that seems to be in question now. So the basic problem with the whole thing is that it's such a variable system that depending on who's doing the experiment, and what the conditions are, people are coming up with completely opposite findings as to you know, what's what are the best conditions for the growth of the yeasts or for getting particular sets of acids? And I just don't know who to believe.

I mean, part of it is extremely complicated because it's not, it's not anywhere close to a single system you're dealing with, with you know, dozens at least, you know, on the on the small amount of research, I was able to do dozens of different lacto lacto bacilli strains that are involved in different sourdough starters, multiple multiple bacteria per starter, dozens that are that are commonly known plus different yeast some wild and and the balance of those two things is affected by many things, including the type of flour the ash content of the flour, the temperature, the hydration, all of it affects it, right I mean, it's it's just incredibly complicated system.

Yeah, how often you stir it? How much you aerated during the stirring, so your stirring technique makes a difference, right? Because oxygen, something that's useful to remember in general and this I think, has not been contradicted by anything. Yeasts actually do need oxygen to to grow well. And of course in a doe you're essentially forcing them to do with with very little but when you're encouraging them to to grow in your starter so that you start out with a good dose of them and your bread dough. It's really good to to quipped that sourdough starter or needed if it's a firmer starter a lot in order to get air in there to give the the yeast a leg up on the bacteria.

And, you know, there's a couple a bunch of different kinds of the lactic acid bacteria some of which the most which actually, that hetero, fermented ones will actually produce some co2. And that's how they produce acetic acid at the same time. If there's oxygen present, or other things like fructose, there's like, you know, so adding air will also increase the amount of acetic versus adding oxygen rather, will increase the amount of acetic versus lactic acid. I mean, it's just the whole thing is complicated.

Yeah, yep. Exactly. And as the second part of Christian's question indicates, just getting the thing to grow at all, is such a challenge that I myself, I'm happy not to worry about the lactic versus acetic balance. Because it's true that those are two different acids, one has an aroma, and the other doesn't. One is your the aroma of vinegar. And you want a little bit of that, but not too much. And lactic acid gives you maybe a kind of cleaner hardness than than acetic does. But those are real fine points. And the important thing to begin with is just getting something going and relatively stable so that you can then begin to refine the results.

Well, this has been very enlightening. Can you stay with us pass the next pass the first break or no? Yeah, super. Alright, we're gonna go to our first break call on your questions to Harold McGee and cooking issues at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128

They had a warrant out for me all over the country. And I was trying to beat to rap tonight. I was breaking into a schoolhouse Sunday morning. Morning, when I saw the sheriff come in and for me slow them down below is steel gray eyes were blazing when I saw his hand was on his gun when he rolled up. He said you kill that woman and oh, you shatter why he's doing I'm taking you off that I'm gonna lock you up when they tied me with the flower and the next morning.

Oh god, I love that song. That's Johnny Cash Austin prison using that song because I just got back from Austin from the IACP conference. Did a demo with Niels and Chris Young for the monitors cookbook and then emceed the awards with with Chris Young we went to a lot of barbecue but that's the only Austin song I know even though it's like one of the biggest music towns in the city, Austin prison and then my favorite part about it is is Johnny Cash goes a crazy screaming lynch mob waited in the streets of Austin, which we didn't quite get to but great song huge Johnny Cash fan, Harold. I am gotta be gotta love Johnny Cash. One of my great musical regrets that never got to see Johnny Cash before he died live see many of my many of my idols but not never got to see Johnny Cash. Anyway. Speaking of Chris Young and a Modernist Cuisine, Natasha, Harold, maybe Christiane and I and Doug Duda from the ICP are all I think Doug's gonna go are all traveling very soon at the beginning of July down to South Dade, Florida. To have a mango orgy we're going to eat well come on, you can call it that we have something like 400 variety of mango, several 100 variety of avocado I believe upwards of 700 varieties of avocado upwards of 75 varieties of jackfruit. And we're going to do a mega two day tasting of the type that we have done with citrus and apples and stashing it with parents pretty excited about it. You Harold.

Very much pretty much Yes. Got got to get into training, though. You know, those are high acid fruits.

Oh my god. I know we should. We should probably we always joke about it. We should probably carry some sort of antacid with us, right.

Actually, I think that's a good idea. That's a good idea. I hadn't thought of that. Although, you know, that's, that's takes care of the stomach. But what about the taste buds?

Yeah, yeah. We're also going to need I'm going to need to ship I need to ship a fruit knife down there or eat or else check luggage, right? Because we're gonna need a fruit tasting knife. I'm gonna need I gotta figure out a way because we got to pack the avocados. You can't taste the avocados that day. I need a good packing technique. I was thinking maybe foam in place I'm working on anyway. It's going to be it's going to be an epic tasting and no one's going to be down there because who the heck wants to be in the very southern tip of Florida. You know, at the beginning of July, it turns out I'm flying my family out after that for like the only family vacation we've ever taken by airplane and I was gonna take my kids to the Everglades because my youngest son likes crop alligators. And then but I forgot that my older son has a phobia of flying insects like almost as bad as the girl from the movie chocolate but not quite that bad. And and I was recounting to my wife last night as we were going to bed how them Mosquitoes are like, you know, huge fat mosquitoes that swarm on you like, like, like, I've never seen anything like it. I read a quote yesterday from the Everglades because I went to the Everglades, that you swing a quart jar and gallon, get a gallon of mosquitoes and it's true. It's unbelievable. So my wife, my wife was like, Dave, you are an extreme idiot. What made you think we should go to the Everglades at the height of mosquito season? So now we're trying to think of something else to do in South Florida on the way to visit my 92 year old grandpa anyway, that's neither here nor there. I'm just excited about the mangoes that's all I'm gonna say about it. And the avocado remember? Herald I told you they have an avocado that seedless and shaped like a banana

Yes, yes. I still don't believe that. I think that's it's got to be mythological avocado can't be real.

Well, we'll find out if look if it's real. I can't believe it hasn't been commercialized. It's absurd because she said that it tastes good. And basically you just score it when it's you know, when it's hard and then you let it ripen and you peel it like a banana. Which is great because most avocados I find difficult to peel like a banana to say the least when they're ripe. Although that might be an interesting idea to pre score and avocado when it's hard, let it ripen and then just peel it off. Because then when you get to do you can't eat it with the seed like that dum dum. Anyway. Another thing Hara Allah had I was doing some reading and Eric blocks, garlic book, garlic and alliums. And you know, who has one of the foremost collections of alliums in the world? New York Botanical Garden, New York Botanical Garden, let's organize a tasting next time you're in New York. If it's if it's rainy season, right? Do you know those guys?

I know a couple of people there. Yeah.

Yeah, we got that'd be an interesting tasting. No one's gonna want to get near us. Right. Next to that one he hates he hates raw garlic to test it hates it. That's another good, good thing to do when you have a kitchen handy because you're going to want to cook some of them. Okay, back to the questions. By the way, calling your questions to, to us or to Harold at 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Okay, Ryan Santos writes in with a customer question. He has an issue this week with a buttermilk custard pannacotta. He's doing an off site catering event, not his forte, but it's an air conditioned room, which will have no access to refrigeration during the event. The event is three hours. So is it cooked custard safe to sit that long at AC temper? Well, I have to ice bath it. If it is safe. What would you suggest to you? So that stay set? I figured gelatin may get too soft over time, a mix of Caribbeans perhaps I would not worry about the safety. Harold, would you? I mean, I would not worry about it at all.

No, no, because it's been thoroughly cooked. And it's air conditioned room. So it's not gonna be that hot and three hours. Three hour event. Yeah, that sounds sounds safe.

Yeah. Yeah, I'm totally okay with that. You know, if you, if you're worried about the gelatin, which you might be, especially during transportation and whatnot, I would use you would use karagin Ns is the reason to use Carageenan and milk based systems is that it takes a preposterously small amount of Carageenan to set a milk bake system, so you're going to want to use a very little amount, otherwise, it's going to be too hard. Kappa is going to be brittle, and Iota is going to be soft. You could use a mix since most Caribbeans are mixed anyway, Iota is good, because if it should break, it'll reform along that line. So it might prevent cracking or anything like that. If you find that you're using just catholiccare Again, and it's too hard, you can add a little bit of locust bean gum, which is going to soften it up a little bit. Any thoughts on that, Harold?

That sounds good. You can also go the old fashioned way, use a little bit of starch or flour.

See, see old fashioned way? See, this is why we need someone tempering the show. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, simple stuff and like go get a bunch of care again and mix it in. Yeah. Also, the one thing I always say was safety with hydrocarbons. I don't know if it's been proven or horrible. You've done any further research. But a while ago, there was some work saying that perhaps kappa Carageenan is not necessarily 100% safe to use from a carcinogen standpoint in very acid systems, but I doubt that buttermilk is acid enough for it to really be a problem. Your thoughts on that?

Yeah, I haven't looked at it recently. But that that sounds correct. Also, as you say, it's a tiny quantity. And it's a desert. And so people aren't going to be getting a whole lot and certainly a lot less than somebody's going to get if they eat some seaweed.

Right. She wants some. Yeah, don't go out and get the seaweed squeezed a bunch of lime over it and start start chomping on it. Although, you know what, like, I haven't seen anything on that research in a long, long time. So I'm wondering whether or not it's whether or not it's even current research.

Yeah, I'll take a look at that. Today get back to

Matt Cool. Speaking of current research, so, you know, the most recent post, although it's like two weeks old now that I have on the site is my defensive transglutaminase. And this, this guy writes in and, and, and says, you know, basically, that his wife has had a whole bunch of gastrointestinal problems and surgeries, and, and she really liked to eat Chicken McNuggets, literally Chicken McNuggets and cheap, quote, cheap cuts of meat. And I can't guarantee that it wasn't TG that did it to her. And, of course I can't you know what I mean? I also can't guarantee it wasn't space people that did it, you know, and I can't prove a negative light. That's crazy. You know what I mean. But something I just want to say about this is that everywhere on the internet, and this is the this is as much as I think the internet's literally the greatest tool that has ever been given to us in terms of anything really, but cooking as well. There's so much crap that gets propagated, like continuously propagated on the internet. And I guess if the same thing happened to actually back in the actual literature, like you've traced, like the searing myth, famously traced the searing myth, and just keeps on getting propagated you know, person writer after writer after writer until somebody squashes it. Everyone says that chicken mcnuggets are made with trans contaminants. And the fact of the matter is Chicken, Chicken McNuggets were first released onto the scene in 1980. Before before microbial transglutaminase was available. And I guarantee you they weren't using guinea pig liver transplant emanates, because it's too expensive and needs calcium to work. You do not need transglutaminase to make a Chicken McNugget. Nowhere have I ever been able to find any reference that even even obliquely says that McDonald's uses transglutaminase in their Chicken McNugget formulation. Now I'm willing to I mean, they could use it, that's a way to do it. But it's by no means necessary. And so I wish people would stop saying that, that, you know, t g is the is the reason you know, McNuggets how McNuggets came to be because it's just not not true. Even if there is tg in the formulation. Now. You know, these people just get all bent out of shape about stuff. They have no data about, you know, what do you mean, have you ever heard of TG being used in a McNuggets?

I have to confess I haven't read a lot of Chicken McNuggets. Right. Either way, but you know, people have been sticking odd scraps of meat together for millennia. And I mean, that's essentially how sausages work, right? You salt, chunks of meat. And that draws some of the myosin out of the meat. And myosin is a sticky protein and things stick together. And it's as simple as that.

Yep, boom, no TG required, you know, yep. And it's, you know, it's called the primary bind when you're making sausages. And it's how it works. It's how it's how it's always worked. You know, when I'm sure that they have a Chicken McNugget batter that they have like some kind of blended chicken with salt, some pieces, and they just keep folding it until the until, you know, the myosin is developed, and then it'll stick in whatever shape they want. I mean, no problem. And it's a lot cheaper than using transglutaminase. And it from a production standpoint, they don't have to worry about setting times or setting rates. So it's probably easier for them to not use it in that in that application. So you know, that's one of those things I wish people would just do a little bit like even like a tiny bit of research, but if you look everywhere, it says nuggets Now, an interesting one is sereni. So sereni right is a fight fish. Basically, it's kind of if you read about how sereni is made, it's kind of horrific. When you agree Harold, it's kind of it's kind of just horrible. It's like took like they d flavor. They d aromatize and you know, wash it any normal kind of flavor out of like, whatever kind of fish scrap crap they have lying around. And then, you know, basically rejected again in kind of serenely shapes and there formerly were made without transglutaminase. Although there's evidence that there's endogenous meaning of you know, already occurring trans contaminates that might have some that add to some of the gelling capability of the fish mix. But there is true that in current streaming applications and attempt to use fish that don't have a high enough gelling power to make it adequate streaming on their own, that they are the Adding trans determinates to it, but don't blame sereni on trans contaminates, just you know, the attempt to extend it even further. Yeah, are you a big Serebii guy Harold.

You know, I actually kind of enjoyed every once in a while it's got it's got that nice kind of bouncy texture to it. So, you know, a slice on top of some ramen with with the other stuff. I kind of liked that a lot.

Also, you would have no, California roll without the semi me right? That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Because if you just use avocado, and if you were to use shrimp instead of Surya wouldn't be right, right.

That's right. And I couldn't eat it. All right.

Yeah. Wait, that's an interesting question. They do they only use fish in Surrey me? Or do they ever put the they ever put other things like shrimp into it. And if they did is it's so thoroughly washed, that any protein is causing you a problem is washed away from it?

Well, I think the protein that causes me the problem is actually a component of the muscle. The set of muscle proteins, it's tropomyosin. So I have a feeling it would stick around, even through the streaming processing, but the whole point of the three means that you use really, really cheap, like Pollock or something like that, to make something like crab or shrimp. And so I think it's the idea of actually using crab or shrimp or some kind of crustacean in the survey is just, it's against the whole idea of streaming in the first place.

Again, again, good insight. Alright, can you stick around for one more cycle of this? Sure. All right, call your questions to 718-497-2128 It's 718-497-2128 cooking issues.

Guitars too good and firm feeling women. I don't need my name in the marquee lights. A God was so God to you with me tonight. Maybe it's time we got back to the basics of love. Let's go back to

the successful life like the Hatfields and McCoys. Equity lives pain songs Ubers train songs and blue eyes cried and

texts

nobody knows. Following is a public service announcement from Heritage Radio Network every Sunday at 4:30pm Tune into burning down the house. Architecture is the laser focus of burning down the house a weekly discourse on all things built, destroyed, admired and despised. Each week, Curtis Dewayne your host invites a posse of authors, critics, builders, designers and other architecture themes to reflect on various topics related to perhaps the most functional of all art forms. Again, that's every Sunday at 4:30pm on the heritage Radio Network.

Jackie that's all just right. Waylon Jennings, Luke and Bach, Texas. Another classic right for our Texas theme. I think that that song is great. In fact, Waylon Jennings unfortunately died way too young, but the person I used to play bass with in my high school band is in his son's shooters band. Pretty cool, right? Shooter Jenny I've

never seen the Stasi look so excited on the show

Okay, you want to start she doesn't really much Miss dosha doesn't like stories really are people so she doesn't like country music much just accurate. Except for Merle you now you like Merle. I just don't like hearing the story over and over and over. Same story. Harold, can you believe this?

You know, what am I Yeah, people live people. This is this is this is what I this is what I put up with PBS. This is what I put up with. Anyway. Okay. A question actually posted on and I'll read through this one quick but it's of interest to some people. Katie HP wrote into the blog actually has a question hoping we can give the answer. I received a country hand for a Christmas gift. I was told you can store them almost indefinitely. So I put it in my refrigerator. Now I'm told I shouldn't store it in the cupboard. My question is did I ruin it? And have I started too long? Any answers would be appreciated. Well, I don't know how long you stored it. Oh, Christmas gift. No, no, no, it's fine. It's fine. It's fine. If you've already cut into it, and you might get some more Old here's the problem American country hams are a little soft in the middle. Because of the way they're cured typically, unless they're really really aged. So if it's already been cut into, you might get some kind of unfriendly green mold or some kind of like Brie like Candida mold right on that face. And unless it's penetrated so far into the meat, that you get an off flavor on the inside, you can just cut a little bit of that off, scrubbing the other mold off the off site outside of the meat. And I'd be more worried about the fact picking up flavors from the fridge next time freeze it or if you want to agent more, hang it. I wouldn't put it in the cupboard because mites really like dark kind of cool places to chew on ham and I've had that happen any what do you what do you think? Do you ever stored meat for a long time?

Yeah. Kept the country ham for like a couple of months downstairs at my place and I'm in San Francisco which is cool to cold year round. So I don't have some of the problems you'd have other parts of the country but yeah, in the cool in the not completely dark but semi dark. Kept for months for fine.

Yeah, yeah, but I had one that I stored literally in a cupboard and when I opened up the bag, it was like might might central you know, once you want I once had like 10 to 15 hams in my house and one of them had a mite problem which is common, but they usually they do they gas termites out in, in production. And and once you have them in your house like is the next time you bring a ham in it just chews up the ham, but I would not worry about that ham, other than any sort of, I mean, the fridge is problematic from an aroma standpoint. Right and that's pretty much it.

Yeah, yeah. But But speaking of ham mites, I've never experienced ham mites do they do anything interesting to the flavor the way cheese mites do the cheese?

Interesting question. I've never thought about it that much because I usually trim away the mighty area I've never done like just a tasting of it. They say it makes it bitter. But of course they say the same thing about cheese mites. There's the famous might cheese I think from Austria, Austria or Germany where they take FARC and they let it age in mites until it's basically a big pile of meat. Have you ever tasted that stuff that might cheese?

I haven't tasted that. But in France, there's a you know a tom de Savoie kind of dry, long aged cow's milk cheese from the mountains in the eastern part of the country. There's a version of that called come to savoir sera que sera and a means by mites. And I went to a some farmers markets when I lived in France, and you could you know, approaching the market from the parking lot, you could smell it from from the edge of the lot, I would just follow my nose. And I actually find that that aroma is delicious. So I know some people can't stand it, but there are people who do appreciate it. So I wonder whether you can get the same kind of effect from him.

Is it was it? Is it bitter at all? Is it apart bitterness to the cheese?

Yeah, I don't think so. No, I don't. I'm thinking back now to the times I've had which are many. And it's it's mainly an aroma thing. And you know, you don't want to actually eat the frass you know, the stuff that the mites have actually chewed on but they they produce this compound I think it's a pheromone, you know, they use it for signaling, signaling each other. And it gets into the meat of the cheese itself. And it's delicious.

Well, you know, the, the one from either Austria or Germany that's done with Quark, you actually I think eat the mites. Like it's basically it's like mites all the way through. Yeah, I'd be interested. I want to try both now. Isn't this Josh? Is this your worst nightmare? Yeah, yeah. Natasha and other this should just be like the mustaches Quark show. She can't look at leaves that are deformed. She can't look at the form leaves like gross bore. Yeah. Okay, hey, Harold, I don't know whether I've talked to you about this. But I think I did briefly the last time I did the SU V Low Temp class. I had a bunch of a big crew from South America. We had a couple from Brazil and and different countries. I forget where else do we have a anyway? But they said that there's a tradition down there of storing raw meat under oil. We talked about this. No. Yeah. Have you ever heard of this?

I haven't. No. Yeah, so Rob, we just submerged under oil and any kind of oil?

Yeah. guess and then and then afterwards they cook it as a storage technique as kind of a pre refrigeration kind of storage technique. But I said is it cured? Like a cena, you know, like, like Mexican salt beef. And they said, No, it's not cured. And then I mean, maybe there was a language barrier. I said, Is it cooked? And they said, No, it hasn't been like a, you know, like a like a reset or a coffee. And they said, No, it hasn't been cooked. And I was like, Well, do you die when you eat it? And they said, No. But I mean, a couple of things, I guess is that I mean, I don't know if they actually do salt before they put it under. But if you're going to cook the bejesus out of it, I mean, you're gonna kill most everything that's going to grow in there's going to be heat labile right. And it should ferment Anyway, before anything else happens because it's such a high water content, it should ferment and get kind of lactic we should also knock back the the botulism and all that crap, right. Yeah, yeah. But very

interesting, though. Yeah.

I've never never heard of that before. And, and my other weird South American question for you. Is, are you aware of the of the the traditional freeze dried? Peruvian, like Inca potatoes? Yes. Yeah. Give a try. Remind me of the name? Sheikh. Junio Blonko. To Neo? Yeah. Yeah. Well, for those of you that aren't aware of it, I want any recipe that doesn't taste like a goats of goats, private parks, because it is or how I imagined it goats, dirty private parts to to taste it smells like a barnyard, but like, like, hey, that's been pooped on, like goat anyway, could be sheep, I haven't been around a farm enough to really distinguish goats from sheep aroma alone. And the way they make this is they take potatoes, these special, I think, somewhat bitter mountain potatoes, they let them freeze overnight, then they saw, I think they do that a couple times. And they throw it in a sack in in a well for like 3040 days, then they pull it out. And then they let it dehydrate a couple of times with a couple more freeze thaw cycles. And I was really excited to try them. You just boil them and then like put cheese over him and eat him like that guy. Were they horrible, there's got to be they've got to taste better. If people like them, there has to be a way to cook it so that it's good. Only the Japanese fermented soybean notto is the only ingredient I've ever come across. I can't imagine being used to good effect somehow. But