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Hello, and welcome to another late session of cooking issues on the heritage Radio Network. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues here with Natasha, the hammer Lopez fresh back from her trip to California to visit her parents for her birthday. almost a month prior to her birthday. How was that trip mustaches? Good. Yeah, good. So please call on all of your cooking related questions or non if you have non Quicken related questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. So last week, we had a question from actually a telephone question from I forget who, what the name was. But they'd question about salt rising bread. And salt rising bread is a unique kind of bread. That dates at least back in this country anyway, at least to the 1840s 1850s. And it's basically died out almost everywhere, except for in certain places like Western New York. So I said, which was truthful. I don't know anything about it, right. So I made some, which is the reason why I'm late. By the way, that's why I'm late today. Now. In fact, I didn't get to make it 100% Like it was supposed to. I didn't get chance to go all the way through the proofing. I kept waiting for it to finish its proofing and the proofing time and this kind of bread is very variable. So anyways, I had to throw it in the oven too early. Also, I didn't add any crush treatment like an egg washer or anything to it. So the top is rather cielo and I pulled it out of the oven and literally put it into a metal box and ran to the studio. So that's why I'm late. I'm gonna start and we're gonna try it. It's still hot, but it's cool enough to touch out. And I bought some butter. Well, it looks okay. Right? Right Natasha looks alright. Put some butter on some of this and break off a piece. Let's try it and then we'll after you try it we'll talk about okay. I mean, while this is the first week that I'm doing a radio show as a 40 year old right me birthday. Yeah, right. So auspicious beginning to my fifth decade on this planet on the way biking home from work on my birthday. I got doored by a by an SUV and flipped over in the street and all mangled and bruises. Good way to start. Right. Good start to your fifth decade, I think so you kind of more of the same, right? Like why should Why should life change just because you get older anyhow. And another thing this is the first show where Natasha actually currently is no longer an employee of the French Culinary Institute. Thank God and I am I am now an independent contractor. So I'm officially in business for myself now, as well as still a director of culinary technology so it's a it's Good day, right? Yes. But who's cooking she has been brought to us by today Jack Hearst ranch Hearst ranch. I don't have the words to read about Hearst ranch. But Hearst Ranch is, I believe one of the oldest privately owned kind of meat farms in the in the country. Right. And they have a huge range of, of delicious grass fed cow that I've eaten and the stuffs really good. Right and they've been a longtime sponsor in front of the show. And their their website is www dot Hearst ranch.com. I correct Jack? Yes. Okay, so now we're tasting our salt resin bright. Do you think massage

needs more salt?

Well, interesting. We'll get into that. We'll get into that. Excuse me, I'm eating. So one of the peculiar things about salt resin bread is it has, if you smell it, a cheesy aroma, a very, very particular cheesy aroma. This particular one is underwritten. Oh, I think we might have a color in which case I will describe the the bread in a moment. Jack, do we have a color? Yep. Caller you're on the air.

Hey, Dave. My name is Nora. I'm from Seattle, Washington. And I have got myself a bronze thermo mixer that I was able to get working again. Last one. And I was gonna try my first Kansas City. Be very careful, of course. And I've got myself a brisket here. Actually, it's a corned beef that I was gonna try. And that was just Tom hoping you might give me a couple of pointers to get me on my way.

Sure. Now for for those of you out there. Bronze thermal mixer is not this not nearly the same thing as a thermal mix as the Europeans know it. A Thermomix is a European piece of equipment. That's a blender slash heater, slash mixers slash scale. They're not really that popular in this country because they're very expensive here in the US, but they're extremely popular in Europe, where they don't have vitae preps which are extremely popular here anyway. The brawn Thermomix or more properly, the B Braun Thermomix is an old style. It's an old company that made B Braun made circulators back in the day, and they haven't been made for a long, I'm assuming yours is the is the classic B brown green, right?

Yep, it's a 1419 b brown green. Yeah. So

yeah, they're like a cool green color. I had a couple of those that actually were harvested from from the Nate naval labs at Pearl Harbor, which was kind of interesting. My, my, yeah, mine were built in the I believe, early, early 80s. And they lasted a good long time is yours have a digital readout or the click the one where you click it in a with with a thumb dial?

It's got Yeah, it's got the knob dial. Yeah. So that's what my one of my questions was, it didn't look like I was able to get a really good 10th of agree. Control, it's maybe maybe point five degrees plus or minus, you know, kind of thing. Now,

the good news is, that's good enough. It's probably I mean, that these things as they age, they might have some drift in, you know, in their calibration, not probably from the instrument itself, but maybe from the electronics because I don't know how they're calibrated. So I would take it before you do anything and do an ice water bath. You know, just make sure that it registers at zero. In general, what goes bad on those circulators the motor will eventually wear bad now, if you had one that was used for not very much, and it was mothballed. relatively early in its lifetime, it could still have many good years of life ahead of it. But terrible things are loud. Yeah. Well, so I had one that I kept alive. Don't tell anyone this, of course, I'm telling everyone this, I had one that I kept alive for a long time with a little squirts of I mean, I didn't have any food raid lubricant on me. So I use WD 40 just to kill the bearing squeal. But that that is how those things typically when they die, that's how they die, they die through loss of a bearing because the bearings that were used back in those days weren't sealed the same way that they that the new ones are the new ones very rarely have bearing faults, you know, or at least I've used them for many years without having bearing faults unless you do something really nasty to them. Okay, so that's how much did you pay for it? If you mind my asking? Oh, I got another garbage. Awesome. All right. So like anything you gets gravy out of it. In other words, Yeah, beautiful. Okay. Was it really encrusted with oil one of mine had been running oil for a long time was a real pain to clean out? No, no

actually cleaned up really? Well, a little bit of water scaling is pretty much all I had. So this was you know, from a laboratory so I'm thinking it was didn't have Yeah, I didn't see any oil on it at all.

Nice. Okay. Yeah, but no, some of our some of our labs ones I got were running oil baths and that's why they had the oil on them. So it looks like you're in good shape. And as long as the bearings are the squealing are they Yes, you can hear the motor turn.

It's it's kind of a little bit of a grindy squeal. Not not squeal. But more kind of a kind of grind. Here, why don't I just do this?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, and it smooths out after a minute. Yeah. So what's gonna happen eventually is your bearing is going to fail there, I would try to grease it a little bit, which is going to make it last for a while. But even I've even had one ones run in restaurants for a little while like that, but that's going to be the mode of failure of that guy. But you know, he's, you know, it's probably lived a long and honorable life. That guy. Okay, so back to your other question of the brisket, the briskets already been cured, right? Yeah. Okay. Now, how you do this depends a lot on what you want the texture of it to be? Do you want it to be more like a traditional brisket texture? Or do you want to achieve kind of one of these real low temperature textures that people are? are doing? So typically, I'll tell you what I do. I don't cook a lot of brisket. But I'm going to equate it to a short rib for you. How about that? Okay, so in a short rib, right, you're going to want to you can I don't do any temperatures below about 57. Because I find that nobody wants this stuff really rare, bloody rare, right? So no one wants it in like the 55, I'm in Celsius, by the way 55 Celsius range, you can cook the stuff down there. But here are two problems you might have, you're going to if you're going to cook at a very, very low temp, I would suggest initially doing a quick dunk into simmering water, like you know, maybe like 15 to 30 seconds or something of that. And that is to that's to kill the bacteria on the outside. Now, if you're only doing one, that's not a big deal, but if you're doing more than one, and you don't do that, and the bags are touching each other, the lactic acid bacteria that are alive on the inside of the bag can get a chance to grow before the temperature gets high enough to kill them. And I especially see this in people that cook long term things below about 57 degrees Celsius. So like, if you're gonna go below 57, I would do like a quick, like a quick dip in simmering water or else, you know, preceding helps, but you know, the stuff still in the, in the in the sauce, right? So don't overcrowd it and in and I typically go above 57. Anyway, so 57 is about the lowest that I'll do like a short rib, and brisket might be around the same thing for 57 degrees, you're going to want to shoot anywhere between 48 and probably 60 hours in that range. So you're gonna have to get a feel for it, you can feel it in the bag, as it goes at 48 hours, it will at that temperature, it will still have quite a bit of toothy bite to it. By the time you get to the upper range of that. And definitely by the time you get to 72 hours, it's going to in my taste be kind of mushy, it will have lost its texture, which I don't find pleasant. Some people like it, right? I don't find it pleasant. In general, I find people like the slightly beefier flavor you get out of something that's like 60 degrees. So it's 60 degrees Celsius, which is 140. I would cook it for about two days. And then progressively as you go higher, you can cook it less and less, I wouldn't cook as much above 63 or 64. Because anything above that, I would just assume cook it traditionally. Does that make sense? Hello? Yeah, I'm here. Yeah. All right. So I would I would try those. I would try those ranges and see how

I think about 60 degrees for 48 hours. Yeah, that sounds good. Now. Are you here? If I do that, blanching the dip. gonna remove anything, do you think I should make up any kind of soft like with the spice packet that comes with it, put around it in the bag, or just just throw it in the bag. And

yeah, you can put this I would put the spices on it. Maybe cut it back a little bit. If you're going to vacuum it down a little bit back from normal, make sure that you don't put a lot of liquid in the bag or it's going to taste really poached right, reducing the liquid that goes in and reduce it. Because if you're going to cook traditionally, you're going to be evaporating liquid often in the bag. You won't.

Yeah.

Wonderful. All right. Well give us tell me how it happens. Good luck with your Thermomix Okay, thanks. All right. Oh, we're going into our first commercial break. This has been cooking issues called that well, still our cooking issues going to our first break. There's Colorado, take a caller and then we'll take a break caller you're on the air.

Hey, Dave, says Mike. I'm a brewer and a commercial brewery and been listening to your podcast lon was intrigued by the raw food discussions you're having. And as a thought experiment here at the brewery, we're just kind of thinking would it be possible to brew a raw beer? I know, they're the main problem. I was thinking, you know, the alpha amylase and beta amylase to convert the mash as normally done pretty high, you know 151 60 But then I was thinking you know what, like teacher and these early primitive beers where people would just to on you know, the starch, the corn or whatever, that they all families in the saliva would break it down. So I was thinking, you might be able to get conversion of a mash at 118. What do you think?

Is? Yeah, you know, the profiles might be different, right? I mean, I don't think you'd get what you're the problems that I see it. And, you know, I'd love to hear what you have to say. But first of all, I think the both of us find it hilarious, I find hilarious, I'm sure you do, too, that you're not that you would typically use temperatures that are higher than then raw food would allow in order to activate an enzyme. And the whole purpose of raw food is to keep enzymes alive. So I find that amusing. But that's ridiculous. Yeah. And by the way, for those of you listening, we're not watching, we just had to post but we're still doing the raw food, the raw food thing that's going to come up very soon, okay. I would assume that yes, those enzymes are going to are going to work, it's just you know, you're going to be, you're going to be thrown off your times and the you know, and obviously, you might not get the you know, you're shooting for the match temperatures that are going to get the right balance of the alpha and a beta amylase is working for you. So you can get the right, the right breakdown products that you want a side mashing, I'm sure you can get to work right at 100 and 112, or whatever it is that they want you to eventually I don't know that you're going to get complete conversion. But the real problem is, is you're not going to be able to boil though. The boil it afterwards, while I

was thinking you could sterile filter the word, right? And then add maybe a co2 hop extract. Do you know when they do those, you know, if they get above 118? For those, I assume it's all cold side, right? With liquid co2?

Yeah, they are. Right. I mean, that's from my experience, from my knowledge of the of the system, that's all done. It's all done cold, they sell that they sell the they sell the

hakea The only thing I was worried about is, you know, the lacto, lactobacillus is really going to be rockin at one 115 118. You know, is there any way to that you would inhibit that. So to let the, you know, the alpha and beta do what they can at that temperature, because otherwise, it's just going to be sour with it, you know, long before I think the starch is converted,

right? I'm thinking now as we're, as we're talking, I'm thinking about it. And I'm trying to think of something that's not going to also later inhibit yeast, or that you can remove that is going to prevent lactic acid from appearing in there. Have you thought of anything? Or no?

No, I really, you know, that chemical side of things we're not really involved with at all. So I don't know, it's more of a thought experiment of, you know, could we do it if we wanted to, obviously, we wouldn't, you know, be able to make a great beer, but I decided to be not that even want to encourage that kind of behavior from these raw foodies, because like you say, it's just ridiculous, you know, all the enzymes that we use in brewing, don't even start till above 118. Except for maybe, you know, some beta glucan ace or something,

right? I mean, but it's a really interesting problem. And you could actually mean you know, whether or not you personally are interested, you could open up a second a separate market segment off as possible because, you know, you go to these places, and they have basically, wines. They don't have any liquors because they haven't picked up on rotary evaporation yet, so none of them have done that, that I know of, you know what I mean? So I'll definitely be drinking homemade liquor off done off of raw approved wines when I'm when I'm doing the raw food diet, but beer is an interesting and interesting problem. I think you've kind of hit the nail on the head if you're going to have the main problems are going to be during the mashing I don't have filters that I would trust to filter it out afterwards that weren't going to clog like a lunatic. But if you have them, you could definitely, definitely do it. Have you ever just had like you ever just like also your The other problem is your barley is going to be killing to too high temperature?

Possibly, yeah, I think they do kill killing at about 130. So I'm gonna have to look into that.

Yeah, because I was thinking about doing doing something for you know, but they sprout all the stuff, but then they don't. I mean, it'd be possible maybe to do a mash that wasn't killed if you use it as soon as the thing you know, reached the proper stage of malting,

which malted your own and didn't kill it to dry it off. Right?

I mean, wouldn't it be possible to then directly go to the mash stage?

Yeah, it's not required. There was a drawing. Part of malting is just this, you know, so it's storable.

Right? I've never done my own malting but I hear that that's as much of an art or more so as anything else.

Yeah, malted some corn to do some heirloom variety corn moonshine and sprouted the corn and mash that

off the record. You mean you did that? Yeah. Hypothetical. Yeah. How was it?

Delicious. I mean, the the amount we got out of it was ridiculously small. You know, like 15 pounds of corn. We got a pint of finished product, but it was so sweet and the corn flavor came through so much better than modern moonshine is just corn sugar for the most part

right and you know I've never had that the actual fermented cheese like to teach you to horror and all these things but you know in their local environment only had the you know the the teacher that you know the non alcoholic teachers that they have up here but you know assuming that those are boiled fried you also might look at maybe it's easier to get the breakdown of the mash in corn rather than in barley I don't know or I also don't know if the saliva amylase enzymes are qualitatively different from the ones that we use from barley malt. These are all things that I find interesting, so why don't you Why don't you investigate it and I'll look into a little bit and then maybe we'll talk about it again on a future show. Sounds good.

Sounds good. One more thing on a food or on a food note. I've been really into cooking authentic Thai food ever since I did this restaurant park park up in Portland and I've got all day of Thompson's books and I can't a lot of them call for coriander roots and I was wondering if you have a source or have you ever seen any coriander roots available anywhere? I

mean if you can get if you can buy some bunch cilantro with the root still attached I've never seen Yeah, I mean occasionally I'll get that but me you have done the good tag groceries in your area don't don't have it or do you not have like a hardcore tag grocery?

We don't have any but even when I go down to Atlanta and go to the big ones, I've just never seen it anywhere. I grow my own but you know,

right pain in the butt. Yeah, for the roots. I have occasionally gotten a bunch cilantro with the root attached but I'll start to make a note to look into it and I'll I'll look into that when I'm looking at the raw food. We'll try to hit two birds with one stone. Alright, thanks for the help I thank you. All right, and now we are officially going to our first commercial break call in your questions. 27184972128 That's 718-497-2128 cooking issues parliament.

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But most of all the funk Lindblad you're also the Father Mother of Chef Zach Zach culture, and we're attended our fundraiser. Yeah, right. So cheers. Cheers to the Bellagio crew All right. So go to back to our salt risen bread. Salt rising Salt River salt rising bread actually doesn't contain a lot of salt. Although sometimes it can. This one's under salted because I didn't really want to taste it during the fermentation process. And I'll tell you why. Salt raisin bread. does not use yeast, right typical breads that we use that we make are leavened with yeast different varieties of yeast. Sourdough breads are leavened with a basically a symbiotic culture that's both lactic acid bacteria, and yeast, right? And so it's like the in this specific culture depends on the specific yeast and the specific strain of yeast and the specific bacterial culture that you have in it. And that's what gives the characteristic flavors of sourdough bread. Right, they're sour, because the lactic acid bacteria are basically I think eating the byproducts of the yeast and producing the acid at acidity provides a characteristic twang and also makes the dough slacker which is why sour dough doesn't have the same taste or feeling as regular because the gluten is somewhat broken down by the acidity, okay. Now, salt rising bread, on the other hand, is a leaven purely by bacterial action and the bacteria involved Is Clostridium perfringens which is actually a pathogen a food pathogen like one of the second best known or second, probably most prevalent, or one of the most prevalent food poisoning bacteria that there are now I made this dash eat the bread before I said this because I knew that she would not try it afterwards. Now, there's a what's interesting is, is it's been it's been very, very thoroughly studied and there's a study on it called the microbiology of salt rising bred for done by the West Virginia University School of Medicine fairly recently. And basically what they did was they they did a study of the different starters. Now the way you do a startup Clostridium perfringens is a is a is an anaerobic, it basically can't grow in oxygen. So what you do is you make a liquid mix with something like cornmeal or something for it to, to feed on right and you can add either salt or, or sometimes baking soda or a Kamden tablet, which is basically a yeast inhibitor because you want to stop yeast from growing in there, you only want this bacteria to grow in and you let it sit in a warm place. I use my Excalibur dehydrator which you can also use as a bread proofer to keep it at about 100 degrees Fahrenheit for hours, like usually overnight until it gets foamy and starts taking on a cheese like aroma that's characteristic of salt written bread, salt, raisin bread. Some of that characteristic aroma comes from one of the byproducts of Clostridium perfringens which is butyric acid which is the smell of rancid butter or which you can smell now that you haven't noticed or she'll say meat or it's a characteristic of parmesan cheese or in very high concentrations vomit, okay, so it has a very specific aroma that that that devotees of this bread really really really enjoy. They then add usually more water and flour to create a spongy starter which you then let rise again for many hours then make the dough and then let it rise up yet again and you bake it the texture is a lot wider than regular bread because of the for some reason I don't really know why. They said it's because of the acids involved. I doubt that I don't know what it is. But it's a very white crumb. It has a different texture it finer bubbles the gases produced are not carbon dioxide as they are normal bread it's a combination of hydrogen and I believe also hydrogen sulfide I'm not sure gases in the in the bread so it's basically a fundamentally different breadmaking mechanism than you would use normally when now when you bake them right? They do have this like really like once you smell it once you like you're never going to like mistake the smell for it again. You know what it smells like when it happens? A lot of people have a failures of getting their thing to rise but it's very easy for me because I use the Excal what well come on and stash it always taken into the gutter always taken into the gutter anyway, some people have a problem getting these things to rise in a in a non sexual way gross. And and I think it's because they don't have adequate temperature control. So one of the reasons it's called salt raisin bread, some people speculate because you add salt to inhibit yeast formation. The other thing is that apparently the people who used to make it, they would they would take salt and heat it up and use that as a heat as a warm bed a warm bed of salt to keep it into keep the temperature of the starter in the right place while it was heating because and that by the way, the crunching here in the back isn't me crumpling papers and stash it eating the bread. So thank goodness she's overcome the the like the fear of perfringens poisoning. Of course I can hear it. Anyway. perfringens poisoning and she's eating it. There's never there's never been a reported case of foodborne illness as a result of eating the bread and the microbes. The the tests they've ran on the bread after it was cooked is that it is had basically no active perfringens in it now. Clostridium perfringens is interesting to spore forming bacteria. So you don't really kill it. You just kill all the vegetative cells. You don't kill the spores. But it's ubiquitousness dosh obviously, I was able to have something similar words,

or you don't like the word Spore.

What's wrong with the word Spore? That's spores don't move their spores. She's making little like spider movements with their hands. They're there. It's a spore. Oh, you like mushrooms? Right? You know what they make? spores? Spores spores for anyway. So so it's very interesting topic. I doubt that I'll actually blog about it. There's a very good website or you know, or at least have one that's well known. Susan R brown salt rising bread project that you can look up if you want to look at more on salt rising bread again, the only reason I don't think that I'll be writing about it is because I have so many things I need to write about already and I haven't done it but besides that it's already been handled pretty well. I think by these other guy I don't really have anything to add to it. You know what I mean? Like we didn't do anything fancy or different. Like I didn't make like a salt rising chicken. You know what I mean? Like if I can come up with like a salt rising chicken, then you know, we can do something very difficult with a here we are eating the salt rising bread, and I definitely will experiment with it more myself because it's interesting, and I like I like funky things. And actually, I'd like to taste if I could get it to rise a little more, if I proved it longer. I'm going to add like a crust treatment to to what you think. I like the taste. Yeah, I'm going to try to maybe also do it with alternative grains. It's always usually done with wheat flour. I'm going to try maybe doing it with maybe white moustache, not a big right person, but I'm going to maybe add a little bit of rye, barley around it. We'll see Anyway, okay, now on to the event. By the way, there still it's time to call in your questions. I've walked it up the napkin so I don't have

1849721280 Pretty good. Say it again. 718-497-2128

Yes. Anyway, that's how we operate and the radio here by the way, we have crumpled up napkins with it with because for some reason, for some reason, I can't ever commit the telephone number of the radio station memory no matter how many times I've said it, it's like literally goes goes off the paper into my eyes through my mouth and it's gone. Never never has any, any residence time in my brain. All right. Hey, guys, look forward you show each week. Thank you. This is from Lee. I've got some pork Shanks, I'm going to cook low temp looking for some guidance on time and temperature. I've done lamb shanks at 70 degrees Celsius for 36 hours, then bone in pork shoulder at 61.5 degrees C for 48 hours both came out great. But the great variance leaves me last for the pork shanks. Okay, the lamb shanks at 70 C for 36 hours. That's a long, let me see 70 For 36 and 61. For 48. Those what's funny is those are about equivalently. So in other words, you got to choose the temperature and the time. If I were going to do pork Shanks, I would do it closer to the second 161 for 48 Or maybe 63 for about 5657 give that a shot, the two numbers you have are actually fairly equivalent, even though they seem desperate because you have to cook for a lot shorter time as the temperature goes up. Anyway, I hope that hope that helps and give us a call and tell us how your pork shank turned up by Hey, we have a caller and caller you were on the air. Hey, Dave, how you doing? All right, what's up?

I was wondering about beer cooler su V. I'm currently in the process of building my own immersion circulator. And it's just taken a little longer than I expected. As far as safety goes, Is there anything I should really worry about when cooking like whole fish inside of a beer cooler?

No. Nope. No, no. But yeah. Are you uh, are you a beer Brewer? No. Okay. But so the one thing that you should, here's what here's what you need to do, you need to the outside of your product is going to be cooked a little more than the, in the inside of your product and the nature of the beast when you're doing this kind of work. Okay. The main thing you're going to have to do is I mean, are you going to get the standard homebrew special that got five gallon? Cooler? Yeah, yeah. So for those of you that don't know, like, the standard like thing to start your homebrew mashing in is I don't know why but the company got is the one that everyone gets, do I think TT five gallon cooler. And what you do is, is you drill a small hole to fit your whatever it is, whatever thermometer you have, get a long stem thermometer and drill a hole in the top of the of the cooler to put the thermometer in pouring water that's close to the temperature you want to cook to while make up a number 57 Celsius, right? I'm making it up, pour it in, throw in the thermometer, and then wait and take readings every every little bit, right and figure out figure out exactly how fast the temperature drops, you should be able over the course of a couple of hours to keep it within about five to 10 degrees depending on how good the cooler is, right. So now you know your temperature drop. So what you do is is you say okay, now the second thing you need to calculate is the weight of the water that you're going to add and the weight of the meat that you're going to add. Right? Then you calculate the temperature of the meat that you're going to add and the and then you have to calculate what you want the temperature of the water to be right. So let's say you have a 10 degree drop out, let's say you know you're gonna cook it for for an hour and a half. And you know, you're gonna get a 10 degree drop over that hour and a half, right? So let's say you're gonna cook at 135, which is about 50 735. You want what you want your finished temperature to be. So you start you want to do your start calculation with the water starting out at 145 degrees, right? Does it make sense so far? Yep, perfect. So now you know you want a start temperature of 145 degrees. So what you do is is you say okay, I have let's say 30 pounds of water at and you want more water than meat, right? They have 30 pounds of water at you know at what what temperature do I have to have that 30 pounds of water to be such that when I add five pounds of meat at you know 40 degrees Celsius, that when you add those things together, the water and the thing averaged out to being 100 and 150 150 100 Yeah, no sorry. 145 sorry, crap. 106. It's very hard to do this. You See what I'm saying? Right? Do you understand what I'm saying? So what you want to do is you want to hear in the easy way for everyone that I've confused with this is, it's really hard to do this without a piece of paper in my hands is a lookup calculations and brewers use to do strike temperature, right. And so it's called Strike temperature. And that's the water that they use. When they add barley to it, and they want the mash to come out at exactly the right temperature, they do the exact same procedure. So you can use the exact same equation. So just go on to any brewing site.

and.com has the strike water temperature calculator,

perfect. So just use that and you should come out all right, just make sure that you know what your temperature drop over the course of the intended cooking time is because it's typically going to be longer than it would be for a brewer on mash out on mash and better.

Awesome. Um, one other question for you, Dave. Just a follow up from previous show. Have you? Have you played with the Herald press at all

played with what No, I haven't, I still haven't gotten one, we have an offer to have someone give us their AI. As soon as I get one which I it's just laziness. And stupidity is the only reason I don't have it. But know that why do you really like it?

I've had mixed results. And I find it tends to make a very sort of flat cup. On the biggest problem being I think you're using paper filters with it. And they're not the greatest paper filters, I think you'd have a lot like I've placed has a clover like an independent coffee shop as a clover machine. I brought it in and compare it and they make sort of a similar cup because it's a similar technique, right? I think a metal filter would make a huge difference in allowing a little more of the oils and

flavor to get through. So

that's just my observation. I've only had it for about a month

though, right? Well, I assume you're on the West Coast if you went to a place with a clover.

No, I'm in Halifax actually. Oh, really?

Oh, well. Clover. Clover is a little bit different because Clover doesn't use any pressure. And theoretically, there's some pressure in the AeroPress which is going to probably change the coffee quality a little bit. Because the clover is basically just using the piston to extract out of the ground is not using it under any really elevated pressure. But yeah, I need to I need to I need to play with a coffee geek is obviously is a good place to go because people have done AeroPress work. A lot of AeroPress work but anyway, but please get back to us with the results of your of your gut cooler cooking and tell us what happens.

I will Dave, thank you so much, man.

I thank you. All right. All right. Now one last question. I hope to get to I have to go fast because the stock has given me that evil look, Mike okay. And of course unfortunately this question is a little long, they say sorry, if I had liquid to a ziplock bag and then cook a chicken breast Suvi isn't the flavor going to be leached out into this liquid? I read your low temperature primary water hot dogs are cooked in reaches equilibrium with the hot dogs and so the flavor is not altered, and that this water is reused all the time. And so it's okay for the hot dogs. It doesn't change the flavor. But this seems impractical at home. As I only cook chicken breasts every few weeks or something. Is there a way to safely store the stock that you use for cooking chicken breasts way and reuse it? Straining and freezing the stock? Stock seems an obvious approach. But is that the best way? Does the repeated freezing and thawing diminish the quality of the stock? Or should you always add premade stock to it? All right. Okay, here's my feeling on this. You can freeze stock no problem and rethought it doesn't hurt the quality of it. The main problem with quality is with with freezing things as long as you actually contain them tight and you don't have oxygen touching them and, and there's not a lot of fat in them. So it didn't go have rancidity problems. The main problem is actually just cells are being dehydrated and don't hydrate properly. And freeze thaw cycles or gels break and things like that you don't care if the gelatin breaks because you're going to heat it again to the point where the gelatin is going to melt again anyway. And there's no cells to lose quality. So soup can be and stocks can be repeatedly frozen and thought as long as you're not like damaging them with oxygen content or there's a lot of fat if you're having a problem like that. So I wouldn't definitely would not worry about reuse, straining and reusing the stock again and again. And again. You can also poach in a very, very small amount of liquid like when I do chicken I basically I will And this speaks to the later part of the question which I don't have time to read. But when I do chicken now typically what I'll do is I'll solve them and actually a little sugar cheater, instead of brining and then I'll put it into my into my ziplocks and I'll add a little bit of milk but just enough to get a good seal on it so it's not really sucking that much flavor out of the chicken. But that stuff actually is good as a soup base because it's got chicken flavor and you know it's salty already. You don't can't use it straight as is because it's usually too salty. But I do that and then I use it for a different preparation. Right. So you can do that. But that does dilute the chicken flavor somewhat but not a lot but you could definitely just reuse it. The other question you had is adding liquid to a steak cook smoothie. It seems weird to me especially if precede can I apply the principles to teach me on cooking the chicken breasts this way to cooking steak or other meats, I would not add water to a steak in the bag or a liquid. I've done tests with stock and it's okay. And obviously we do super reduction of meat juices from when we're doing short ribs and stuff like that, but they're very, very, very reduced because they need to be not that much thicker than a braising, not that much thinner than a braising sauce, even after the meat exudes all its juices as it's cooking. So I typically actually don't like to use liquids in the bag with a steak, liquid water base liquids, I use butter, right, so what I'll do when I'm cooking a steak in a ziploc bag and this is what I recommend to you is I use butter and I and if you like garlic, a good thing to do is to chop up garlic and throw it in the bag with the melted melted butter. Seal it cook it that way in the bag and then that butter is then immediately useful for garlic bread which guess what goes deliciously with steak, I mean really deliciously in fact, what I do is I pour out the butter and the juices that came out of the steak strain off the garlic because then you don't want that to burn right and the garlic flavors already in the butter. And then I whisk the I whisked the meat, the juices and the butter together a lot and then pour it directly on the bread and then fire that bread while I'm searing the steak and both things come out at the same time. And everybody's happy even my hyper finicky kids. All right, I'm being told that we are out of time. Is that correct? Jack? what that was? Yes, that was a yes. All right. Well, listen, this has been a very fun episode of Cooking issues and we'll come back next week and give us all your questions. Whoa.