Hello and welcome to cooking issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cooking issues coming to you from newsstands studios at the Rockefeller Center here in the heart of New York City joined as usual witness dasya that camera Lopez How you doing? Good. I'm a slightly disappointed because I forgot to mention that last week you wore your amazing Christmas hat. And this week, you think it's too cold for your amazing Christmas hat. So you're wearing a fine hat but not the hat. And it's true, but I still have three weeks till Christmas. Three weeks till Christmas. Oh, if we have time, which we probably won't. I gotta tell you I already told you but the the new theory about Rudolph about the one voice mistake I thought was in Rudolph, and the red nosed reindeer. We made we'll get to it. It depends on whether our special guests enjoys these programs or not. Alright. Which there's no reason to think that she does anyway. As usual. Also, we got Jackie molecules back in California. How you doing? I'm great. Guess what I just did what contributed to the sizzle pro Indiegogo. As well, it's true, because guess what, folks? At this rate, we're not going to make it and if we don't make it unless the US government decides out of the blue to give us a big ol loan which by the way stars. We've been asking for that small business loan for how long? Since May. May. Yeah, May. You mean so? Like maybe like a month ago? Yeah. No, no maze like maze like nine months ago? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know what's really hard to do? See if you can guess what do you think is really hard to do? I don't know. Make products without money. Yeah, it turns out that factories in China, they don't like to just make you stuff. And then you like pay him for it a long time later. It just doesn't work that way. Got John over here. How you doing?

Doing great. But just to quickly dovetail off. I'd go to indiegogo.com/sizzle Pro and get to preorder your sizzle today. Do it? Yeah, yep.

Yeah. And, and he's just going, he's going for going for little stuff he's going to do so next week. We won't have them. We're very happy for the last time for a little bit. Having Joe Hasan in the booth. How're you doing? I'm doing great, guys. How are you? Well, well, thank you really dapper. I just got off the train from Boston. I was teaching at the Harvard University. Oh, the Harvard Harvard. Yes, I was. We can talk about that later if we have time, which we undoubtedly will not. Because today we have very oh, by the way, if you are a Patreon listener to listening live, calling your questions to 9174010 1507. That's 9174010 1507. But today, I've talked about her and her restaurant many times on the podcast about how much I love it. And I think it's great. But for some reason, we've never had her on the podcast, which didn't make sense. So I'm super pleased to have Amanda Cohen from Dirt Candy on for the first time I've ever been on here before, right?

No, I have it. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, so psyched. So

like I happened to be blessed. And that I live fairly close to Dirt Candy. So it's not that far away from me. If you you know if you're anywhere near the lower part of Manhattan make a reservation to go to Dirt Candy. It's one of my it's one of my favorite places. I don't go out the reason I'll see you very often. There's because I just don't go out very often. Amanda, I don't go out very often. But it is just a fantastic. Fantastic place to eat. Right? And so like I'm just going to, for those who don't know the restaurant, right? It is a vegetarian, plant based. Well, why don't you why explain Dirt Candy, the name to people who might not know you.

Their candy is sort of like candy from the earth, which makes it sound like a much more hippy restaurants than it is but that's what vegetables meet me. They are like candy from the earth. So we really think of ourselves mostly as a vegetable restaurant rather than vegetarian and plant based is such a weird sort of concept for me because it didn't exist when I opened. Like those words just didn't exist.

It also I don't think plant based sounds very delicious. Plant based. No.

It doesn't it would be like well, I eat a meat based diet. I don't know. Meat.

At the end of the day, it's all plant based, right? I mean, exactly. You know, photos photosynthesis are they're the only producers. Everything else, everything else. We're just you know, living off of somebody else's energy at that point, you know, so it's all plant based. But yeah, so well, and that's another thing I think people need to understand. So you you first opened their candy in 2008. So at the time, right, so 2008 Like what was the scene like for the kind of food in fact, by the way, like you said, Dirt Candy sounds like it's going to be a hippie thing. And you know, I don't I don't know you that well. But you did not strike me like that at all, like at all. And the food when you go there is not like that at all. And unlike, like other places that that you know, I have been that have a, let's say, I'm gonna put, I don't know how to put this in. So like, there's some places that are vegetarian or vegetable based food that is because it's a cultural basis, right based on like, where the food is from or or, you know, a particular point of view about the world. And this is it's always seemed more like, this is just kind of what you're interested, these are the problems you're interested in solving. This is the cooking you're interested in doing. So it's all about nothing is like, Oh, this would be great. If it was something else it's all about this is how this is great. Would you say that's accurate?

Yeah, exactly. And I think sort of also a difference between us and sort of many other vegetarian restaurants. And there's nothing wrong with restaurants that are this, but like a lot of them are more eco space. So there's like a political reason for them. Or like, you know, it's all about the environment or animal rights all which are amazing things. I just happened to be all about vegetables. And so it sort of put the food for the food is number one. And any ethos that happens to happen is very much so secondary.

But I love that especially because you are known for being out outspoken for issues that are as you put it ethos based in the in the restaurant world, but like the core where the restaurant comes from, and maybe that's the reason I think it's so great is that it's really just about, like these delicious products. I mean, I really think the food is is is really spot on if you have not been go you know what I'm saying? That's That's all I'm saying. And but I have not yet been to your to Leca. You want to talk about that?

Yeah, so like as project I have with Andre Kirchner, who was the main investor, and it's a veggie burger place, burger shack, I don't know what to call it. And there's sort of my response to all the, you know, the more of sort of lab burgers, which there's nothing wrong with those burgers, I think it's great. I think it's getting people to eat less meat, which is a good thing. But I also think that a good veggie burger can withhold its own against those burgers. And so this is our response to it. And I really, you know, think that what makes it good is that it's pretty unique, versus when you have all those sort of impossible burgers and beyond burgers, they're all kind of the same, just with different toppings, no matter where you have them and sort of in a different fun. And here you have something that's actually needed in a kitchen. And it's cool, because it's based on this 900 year old recipe from the Song Dynasty. I'd love to claim that I invented it. But certainly, I didn't

want to talk about I'm interested, I want to hear that. I haven't heard this story before. Tell me the story. Tell me the story of the 900 year old recipe for the Song Dynasty.

Yeah, so it was pretty cool. I had this opportunity to work with a food historian for a project that NYU was putting on. And he was used to the story and like, in Chinese culture and food, and it was sort of brilliant. You know, he was like, Look, this is the recipe from the Song Dynasty or the Ming Dynasty and it would be like, water, hot, green, Brook rock. And I was like, Yeah, and he's like, so this is the recipe. This is for like spring onions, boiled in water and then charred over a rock. And I was like, Wow, you got something totally different out of those five words. And I did. But it was like, like, it's just completely fascinating how these recipes were written. And most of them actually were the original recipes. Most of them were vegetarian because it was the monks who are writing them down. And the monks were vegetarian. But sort of as an aside, he was like, oh, I want to show you this really cool thing. And I was like, Yeah, okay, and he's like, this has nothing to do with the project. And I was like, okay, and he made this vegetarian lung dish, which sounds worse than it is it was just sort of this being dish and I was

vegetarian lung Correct. Vegetarian lung, like squishy soft squeegee long, long. Yeah, basically.

But you know, in that tradition of Buddhist temple cooking from China where they were really brilliant out of taking something and making it not necessarily be like meat as they're trying to like woo their potential donors who did eat meat, but something as delicious and somebody to fool the eye, and he made it and I like I was blown away and I didn't know what I was gonna do with it, but I was like, I will do something with this recipe. And I had never wanted really to have a, I've been really wanting to do veggie burgers and I had never done them before. The closest thing we had at the restaurant was our tiny little carrot burger made from a whole carrot. And when this opportunity came up, I was like, Oh, this is why I've never wanted to have before because I've never had a very good recipe. And this recipe works perfectly for a veggie burger. It's firm, you can put it on the grill. You can flavor it any way you want. It's just brilliant. So

what's the basis? What's the basis of it?

Been? It's just how it's prepared.

All right, well, I have to go chop to go check it out.

It's pretty cool. I'm pretty proud of it. I will say that.

All right. And as you planted close to close to the vest, I like that you're not telling us exactly how it's made. But okay. All right.

And you can buy those for nationwide shopping on gold belly, right? Yes, you

can absolutely buy the Hmong gold belly.

You know, I haven't started going on the gold belly thing of ordering things. Should I start doing that?

at all during the pandemic?

No. I'm terrible at Come on, man. Come on, man. I'm like in the, in the Lower East Side. You know, I just I just I've never ordered food. I've never ordered food to be shipped to me. I don't even really get takeout. I just cook every night. You know what I mean? It's just kind of like, and I've been on, like somewhat of a spending freeze. So I've just been at home cooking. So you know what I mean?

Yeah, to be fair, I didn't order gold belly during the pandemic.

Alright. Alright, so now. Right now I don't feel so bad. I don't feel so bad. But the good news about the gold belly. Now, how do you have you? I'm sure you did. Because kind of thing you do. So have you like had it shipped to yourself? Or had it shipped to a friend in some far flung place and seeing how it shows up on the other end? Yeah, we

actually did it a number of times, I shipped it to my mother in law, and I shipped it to somebody I knew in California. And then they would open up the box and take pictures, and we would make sure it all looked okay. And we learned a lot with how to ship things and how to pack things. It's really quite an art. It's how I felt about doing takeout and delivery over the pandemic's. We're no longer doing but we did for a long time. I was like, wow, people who do this on a regular basis and can get the food to your house hot and sort of in the right shape. They're brilliant.

Do you ever did that they aren't because they can't. Because nobody can. Like the fact the matter is, is that none of that food was as good as it should have been. And everyone just accepted it. You don't think that's true?

It's true. No, I think it's, I think it's true that it's always definitely better at a restaurant, but there are restaurants are much better at it than others. And I would not. I would not say that was our strong suit.

I mean, like, you know, unless you're ordering like, I don't know, like cold sesame noodles or something like that. Everything's breaking down on that trip. You know, I mean, I don't know

everything and then you watch people and they work so hard the delivery guys, but you know, their bags are a certain shape and your bags or a certain shape and you're like, Oh, I guess it's all going in sideways. Now.

I'm gonna do a plug for myself. This is why you need to have liquid intelligence with you, like Anastasia does to keep the hot food separated from the cold foods. So that the stuff? Yeah, he should sell to gold belly. Okay. All right. So now, I think maybe the first time I really kind of met, you spoke to you, you're doing an event at the Museum of food and drink around the launch of your book in like 2012, I think right when the book came out. Now, let's talk about this. Let's talk about this book. And then we can get into more more current stuff. Because that's 2012. It's not yet 10 years, which seems like yesterday to me, but I guess it's ages ago for most normal people. But when this book comes out, like it's a graphic novel, cookbook, right? So it's like, I'm sure it's polarizing for some for some people, right. But what was the kind of response you got off of it?

I think who I mean, certainly some people hated it. They were like, we just want the recipe. Or do we want pictures? You know, they were like, We want one of those beautiful coffee table books with pictures. And but for the most part, actually, the response was really good because we, we started hitting different demographic graphics. We vegetarian bought it, people who knew us bought it. People who are interested in food, and then people who really liked graphic novels bought it. So we sort of broke down this barrier. And we have this whole other group for refining the cookbook. And, you know, to my surprise, although I still haven't actually made money on it yet, but we're in the, like, eighth printing or something.

Oh, awesome. Well, I mean, I'm sure it costs a lot to with all the art that had to be produced and everything but the I mean, what's interesting about the book is it what I what I what I like about the format, is that it really allows you to be extraordinarily kind of personal and kind On a funny, it but, and at times breezy. Like, for instance, for those of you that haven't looked at the book, there's an ongoing conversation between Amanda and her nine year old self who hates nine, I think, who hates vegetables? Right? Right. So it's like, and it's going throughout the book and like, you know, you get to have fun because it's, it is a graphic novel. So like the nine year old wants a monkey. So in the second chapter, a monkey shows up and hits you on the head, right? I mean, so you get to do all this kind of stuff. And, you know, you get to do all of like, the, you know, superhero martial arts training stuff, you know, stuff, you get to do that, because of the format, but at the same time, the information is real and serious. It's like, and like, you know, there's, and you don't have to, like the book that I'm reading now, or writing right now, to get the information out of it is going to be like wading into, like a lake full of muck with gators on right? So the the information is there, but your leg is going to be whereas, like here, you flip open, you see some pictures, and it's like, you know, which which things should you blanch which things never to blanch a guy and you know, a person in the middle? And it's like, you know, so I think it's a really kind of fun way to present what in actuality are serious information, serious recipes. So I think it's kind of people who need the pictures, why don't you get over what you need. I got in really big trouble I was in, I want to actually use it and stuff. It's gonna get mad if I even say I asked him one more time. I don't understand why people like to just look at pictures of food that are like divorced from meaning. Right? So it's like, a picture of food plus, meaning. I love it. You know what I mean? But just a picture of food with no meaning. I don't get it. Do you get it?

I well, I know. That's Instagram, isn't it? Yeah.

And so. stasis, like you're a moron. Right? sighs you're like I'm a moron. Well, he said it to the editor of eater. So yeah, yeah. Well, hopefully they're providing some context and meaning, right?

Whatever. Yeah, in general, they're one of the things that the big graphic novel that I think really weren't what it was, we wrote it this way, for a number of reasons. One is I just didn't want to write a boring cookbook. I was like, but every night, like, what's gonna make us stand out. And a personality flaw of mine is I'm always like, what can I do different from everybody else. And then I realized, you know, a lot of people get their recipes off the internet. And then there are so many beautiful pictures of food on the internet, and there's coffee table books that were gonna be way more beautiful than mine. I was like, so what's the point, let's tell the story of the restaurant. For everybody who can't come to the restaurant? Well, it's really bring it to their living room. And they can, you know, sort of fundamentally understand how crazy and chaotic This restaurant is. And the graphic novel format really works because you look at it, and you take what information you want to the first time and then you can go back and there's like a whole secondary story happening there. And sometimes it's third story happening in the little boxes in the pictures. And even now I go back and look at it. I'm like, wow, I forgot we put that in here. That's really hard.

Yeah. And there's lots of like, like, ongoing keeping it real stories about like running a restaurant throughout it that are kind of funny. And like, you don't even like you paint yourself as ignoring somebody else. When they're trying to tell you something. It's like pretty, you know, it's pretty funny or like the front. You know, it, I think it's a it's a it's a great book for an insight into a restaurant most like, sometimes when you read somebody's cookbook, where they talk about how the how the life is in their restaurant, you have this like long, several paragraphs or pages and it just gets kind of ponderous. We're here. It's kind of sprinkled throughout the book. And I think it's kind of a fun way to deal with it. I think so. Did you really get stuck in an elevator for 35 minutes after the Iron Chef thing with Morimoto?

I really, really did. We were riding up and down and we couldn't like whatever was always the wrong floor. The doors were opening up on and we still had like, all this stuff. We were taking back to the restaurant and we were so jacked. All right. We'll just go up and down.

sucks. Yeah, and you were doing broccoli, huh?

I know, dynamic difference.

Did Geoffrey Stein garden really say because I haven't gone and rewatched? I don't remember. Does he really say that he doesn't like the flavor of broccoli because that's a straight lie. I haven't spoken him in many years. But he he was the first person who came to me and said You remember when I forget who it was maybe it was Marcela Hassan I forget or was one of those people like that was was a reporting out old school Italian recipes where you cook the broccoli for freaking ever forever. You know? I mean, and you do that? Yeah. He called me one day, years ago back when I was still at the FCI. And he was telling me about this, like peep the flavor of long cooked broccoli and how this is a long lost thing. And so when I read that in the book that he said, Hey Brian Luckily, I'm like, What is this? What? Can't be

where he said that. And then awkwardly I hadn't seen him for years. And I think like 2014 Maybe or right before we closed this smaller restaurant, he showed up and I was like, oh, and he's like, can I see the cookbook? And I was like, This is really awkward. Now. You're gonna see yourself in it.

I'm sure he could take. I'm sure he could.

He was fine. He was great. Actually. He was like, oh, yeah, I remember this. This is great. He's like, nickel. I forgotten about that episode. Music. Oh, yeah. Maybe it should have gone differently. Yeah, I got that. I got my like Iron Chef come up. And because I went to Canada and was an Iron Chef, and I am undefeated.

Oh, undefeated, undefeated. Like, that's awesome. I like to undefeated, it's better. It's better than like winning most of the time.

I know. I go, I got to actually say I'm undefeated, undefeated, I hold that. So we're the only team ever.

So for those of you that have never been to an Iron Chef taping before, right? You're not going to believe this because I actually only have been to tapings back in the in the old Stein garden days I went to I went to see he who shall not be mentioned. Batali versus Wiley and my brother in law, Wiley do frame. Yeah. And I was like, and Geoffrey was, I think one of the judges and KB and I forget who the third judge was. And they actually make the judges sound nicer on the show than they are actually in the real life. If, yeah, if you can imagine that. I was like, what, what? And they also cut it to make the judges seem smarter. So when the judge says something that's intensely stupid, like, deep down stupid, they don't want the judges to seem stupid. So they like cut that back a little bit was have you noticed that?

Yeah, they also get fedline.

Really? Yeah. Yeah.

They all wear headsets.

And there's also like, I know, I mean, how nerve wracking was it when you went for the first time as it you know, because I've, I was talking to someone who was an Iron Chef here, you know, in the US. And they were like, We have such a huge homecourt advantage because we know the kitchen so well. Like did you find that when it when you were home court like a huge, huge difference?

Huge. I actually to the competitors who went on these shows who like aren't the iron chests. I think they're brilliant. Like they must be the best chefs in the world. Because it is such a difference. Even going the first time as Dr. Jeff, you know, we got a tour of the kitchen, we could spend some time we spent time with the producer, we had a pretty good idea of like how things were gonna work versus my first time. And when I was like, terrified, and I didn't know what was gonna happen. And the results are like big eyes and bright light. And then you go in again, like two days later to fight another battle. So the kitchen is your it's like, literally, you're inviting a competitor come over and fight and you're like home. Yeah, well, of course, you're gonna win. You know, where the like think is, and the fridges, you don't have to, you know, stand there for a minute and be like, Oh, I don't know which one's the freezer? Which one's the fridge? Where am I supposed to go?

Right? Because nine times out of 10 It's a time management problem, right?

Always, always. So people we competed against were as good if not better, the only difference for me the second time around. And if I've been smart enough for the first time around, and that the competition really plays to my strengths. Because it's what we do at the restaurant, we take one ingredient, and we figure out multiple ways to use it. And not that's not necessarily how every other chef cooks. So you know for us in in my battles in Canada, I was at an our first one was cauliflower. Well, I can give you like 25 ways to cook cauliflower immediately. Like it's not that's not scary to me and putting cauliflower in your dessert. That's not bizarre, but certainly to the competitor. That is more bizarre.

Yeah, I was at a place the other day I was in Boston get this for dessert. Have you ever had this before? Mustard ice cream was good, wasn't it? I can imagine. Yeah, it was good. It wasn't in a desert. Alright, so since you brought up Canada, in advance of you coming on the show, John pulled some of your old editorials. Because for those who don't know if, for some reason, you are thankfully willing to speak out on you know, issues that are exasperating to you and to hopefully to everybody, but I forget what year it was. But you said you likened food journalism to a human centipede and you can say that right? Because that's a metaphor. We can say that on a family show, right? Human Centipede stars we good? I think yeah, I mean, I'm fine with it. You're the one that has the issue. I mean, in other words, It's not it. Okay, so you basically, I'm not going to call the poor, you can call out that the editor, you know, that he was so you know, like, like, what do you call that nose to tail of a human centipede in this world of journalism that couldn't get his head out of somebody else's behind long enough to like see what was going on. But then here's what I thought it was. Here's where and this is another thing, if you read the cookbook that you'll get, you have no means you appear to have that, that that soussan of self hatred, that all great. I think cooks and producers have that little bit of self loathing. So you say, I was in human centipede in Vancouver once. And it was problematic. I was like, Whoa, like, wow, okay. All right, then. But so, I mean, did you get a lot of response? Call him a human centipede?

Yeah, I mean, that certainly got retweeted a lot. Yeah, but I mean, in general, the, the article about a lot of good response, because it was the appropriate article at the appropriate time. It was, you know, in response to a lot of the stuff that was happening and the gods of food, right. And, you know, you looked around and you're like, Oh, come on, even if even if they didn't think there was a female chef who was world class, which I would argue with.

This is the Time Magazine thing. With the cover. Yeah, yeah. From what

are glued together? That it was just lived in my brain rent free. Anytime I want a good laugh,

it's more like you're paying rent. It's taking a toll on you. That's charging you money. That's what's crazy. Yeah, no, yeah.

But the fact that they couldn't see that this was an issue to also be written about, that they couldn't find a woman to really talk about in this entire issue. That's just such a blind spot that you can't I mean, it's not like it's like 1961. Where I don't know, we're in 2000. And the teens, this is a huge problem. If you don't think that there's as great women, or female chefs as there are males have to and if you're not finding them, then the onus is on you to actually find them and to figure out why you don't say so. And that sort of self recognition never happened.

Right? Well, well, here's so here's a couple of thing I wasn't actually planning on on going this way. But one of the reasons, one of the reasons that I you know, I think I was like Hey, John, we'll see if we can get Amanda on is because when we're not on the air every time somebody mentions, and I'm not anti emp, I like em 11 Madison Park, you know, Daniel has a great team, great everything. I'm not saying anything negative about them, it's not about them. What I'm saying is, is that the incredible amount of hoopla around that, like no one had done, you know, vegetable, like only fine dining. And every time was like, Well, what, like, hello, don't kind of what, you know what I mean. And that's not even like talking about like vegetarian like, Monk cuisine, or like, you know, the host of other more culturally oriented very, you know, vegetable based restaurant. And I was like that. And that's actually the reason every time I hear something, I'm like, we should get that. But like, I mean, I don't even know if you want to talk about that. Or if that's something you just want to leave where I just left it or whether you want to talk about it or what?

No, I mean, it was it actually is pretty interesting. Because they came out and they said they were you know, they were one of the first ones and this is their, like, the dining room and 10 years ago, even if I had been open for 13 years as I am now I never would have been mentioned in any of the articles or even other restaurants. I wasn't the only one. And to me actually, it's a testament to how far we've come. We haven't come far enough. With the media sort of really did open his eyes and they didn't just write about Daniel home Mary, they were like, Okay, let's go get quotes from other people that when this was announced, my phone was ringing off the hook from journalists asking my opinion about it. And I 10 years ago, that would not have happened. I was pretty surprised that they decided to go vegan. It's a pretty hard business run. I'm actually more surprised that nobody came and asked me not because I know everything, but I know what it's like to run a high end vegan restaurant and it's pretty tough. You're dealing with a whole set of different problems than you would in a normal restaurant. Namely, your alcohol sales go way down. hounds come? Well, I think once you sort of pass through, you know, like people who just really are curious about what you're serving and those, you know, your regular, you end up with a crew of people who are younger, they don't have as much money to spend. So they might spend money on the food, but they'd rather go to a cheap bar with fun money and alcohol or they're healthy. Well, I mean, and then they don't drink our alcohol, their sales are notoriously less than most mainstream restaurants. So we have to figure out ways to make it up. But also, the best thing about 11 Madison Park going vegan is I'm getting the overflow. So we're busier than we've ever been. Wow, great. For me

pandemic style, though. I mean, that's got to still is, like, have you fully bounced back? Are you fully back where you were?

Yeah, we're absolutely back, I think we're pretty fortunate one, we only have 44 seats. So like, you know, we do 90 People in the night, we turn the tables twice, basically, where we're at our numbers, and we can't do more, because we're a tasting menu, it's very hard to sort of 100/3 top really do less than 8085. So that's sort of our lowest and our highest the differences is much smaller than I think a lot of restaurants because of our size. And we, when we reopened after the pandemic, you know, we sort of, were really honest about how we were reopening and why and what we wanted to do for our staff and how we're paying them. And so a lot of people are coming not because we're vegetarian, and not because we're Dirt Candy, but because they really want to support us and what we're doing in the restaurant industry,

what percentage of your crew, were you able to get back?

Very few, I kept my manager I kept my managers on throughout the whole pandemic. And then we offered jobs, everybody before. Who had worked for us beforehand. And then actually, only about only two people really returned in the back of house, none of my front of house returned, almost everybody either left the industry or moved away.

So what's that like having to retrain a whole new group of people?

It's actually kind of nice. starting fresh, we, you know, when we reopened, we really focus on changing the culture of the restaurant. And even though I don't think that we have the worst culture, I wasn't as an employee focused as maybe as it should have been.

And well, I mean, you provide good health insurance, correct?

I do now, we didn't pre pandemic. Oh, you were you.

So you were fair wage, but not with the benefits prior to the pandemic?

Yeah, we didn't really make any money, pre pandemic, to be honest, post pandemic, we're actually, I mean, I wouldn't say doing great, but we're finally making actually money. And that's because we went to this one tasting menu, the pre pandemic, we had the two tasting menus, and post pandemic, which is something I learned throws the pandemic, when we only had one tasting menu every night, which we would change every two weeks, I was like, wow, my booth costs are really going down. And we decided to stick with that after the pandemic and we sort of actually pre pandemic, or food costs were 25%. And now we're at 14%. That's a huge difference. That's uh, that for us is profit, or, you know, hemorrhaging money. And we are able now to and we because we raised our prices.

People don't, don't go don't go crunching those numbers. Like it's normal because like, there's no tips so don't go crunching her food cost percentage like you would crunch a normal number, my accurate about that, like you can.

Absolutely. And now we're able to offer so much more than we were and still turn a profit. Which, to me was also something that was really important that I started to your shows during the pandemic, which was, I was kind of running Dirt Candy, quite like a charity, but I wouldn't say like a business business. And you know, we listened to all the stories of the slim margins in the restaurant industry and how hard it was to run a restaurant. And I certainly was one of the loudest complainers. And I was like, I have to figure this out. I can't keep doing this going to bed every night terrified that if I don't do if I only do 70 People one night instead of like 80 that I'm going to close and we have to figure out how to actually run this like a business and give everybody who works here a lot more financial security, including

me. Yeah, well, yeah, please let me ask you Couple of questions you were one of the early people to go. Non tip right. And so one of the things I've always wondered is what are the what are the guests like when you're because you have to pass the cost on to that's the only way it works, right? Would you say you're doing now, but I've always wondered whether that could work in a bar, just because I know that my bar friends, you know, who run a no tip program like under like kind of the Danny Meyer umbrella. Like they've had problems retaining the bartender, so like the front of house on like a bar staff situation. And I know, you say that the majority of your sales are through liquor, like it's real tough time convincing them that they want to go that model. So what's the what are your just feelings on what it would work in, in most hospitality situations? Or only if everybody did it? Or like, what do you think?

Well, the bigger reality and all that it's never gonna work until the federal government stepped in. And that's for various and sundry reasons. If we can get to that in a second. At the moment, it's really hard to make it work in most establishments, because you have this group of sort of old timers who are holding on to the idea that they should be making X number of dollars a night, but that always comes at a cost to the kitchen. So if you're only in a bar, I don't see, you know, we're saying we're passing these costs on to the customer, but the customer already had these costs, it's just a different way of looking at it. Dirt, candy, let's say we charge $100 for the tasty menu, we don't, but the tick would then be $20 The customer is going to pay $120 It's just actually it. We're, it's, it's magic, we're just fooling people into thinking that they're not paying $120 But but they are paying $120 And they were gonna pay that no matter what you're paying, you know, tipping your bill would be $120.

Right? But that tomfoolery works like I was in a restaurant in Cambridge, where at the very least yesterday, we're at the bottom of today's go at the bottom of it. They they're like, there's a 5% fee, like so it's just like, Okay, it's really 105 Plus tip for whatever you like. And you know, maybe you and I are smart enough to be like, it's 105. But like, the average person is like, oh, it's only $100.

I know. Exactly. And you forget about that extra 5%. It's a whole act. There's been a huge study about this. You've never remember the tip. But if somebody asks you how much it costs to eat at Dirt Candy, let's say we didn't have tips, you'd be like $100 As opposed to No, actually, it was 120. You just forgot that you did math at the end.

Yeah, that's like, you know, the worst that is, and this is why I never shopped there u haul U haul $19 for a truck. Now it's $100 for a truck. It's $100 to rent a truck. You know what I mean? But they do that that's the that's the restaurant, right? That's how they fool people into doing it. So you think there needs to be you. You're advocating for like federal legislation to get rid of that tomfoolery, or no?

Well, yes, because right now the system is sort of set up to punish people or restaurants that have gone non pimping? The, what you pay a lot more in payroll. Right? So the government actually makes more money. Yeah, because, but you pay so much more in payroll, and you also pay a lot more in insurance, like your limited liability and your workman's comp because it's all based on your revenue. And tips are included in revenue.

Yeah, listen, people, if you don't, if anyone who's listening to this, who works for like a big business, and has like, like, you know, just get to WTO and works for a big business. Realize that. Like, there are so many regulations, everyone in this country says we're pro small business. We are so anti small business and Oh, anti so anti small business. And so anti small business trying to do the right thing, right. It's like, it's maddening, but I don't know if any of that stuff's ever gonna get. I don't know if any of that stuff is gonna get straightened out. Yeah, that's, there's no, I'm now so depressed that I forgot the other thing that I was going to ask you. So maybe I should just what were we going to talk about now? I'm just depressed. You just depress the hell out of me.

I'm sorry. If one day it'll change, I believe. I don't

think so. Oh, here's another thing. You're like, well, we're giving, we're giving, you know, health care to people. Here's one pre pandemic, you were saying and this is 100% true. We need decent childcare in this country of decent affordable childcare. But here's the problem. Having tried to use decent affordable childcare in my you know, life. It doesn't work if you need to be somewhere right. So, like, you know, many people have jobs where they can be like, I can't come in today, my kids sick but when your kid gets a runny nose, the freakin the frickin daycare centers like your kids got a runny nose. They can't Stay here, and then you gotta, then you want to you has to, you know, have the two if there's two, hopefully, you know, make your life easier, like has to go pick up the kid. And then they're not at work. And guess what, that doesn't work for restaurants. Right? So it's like, absolutely. So there I have that question about how daycare could ever work for hospitality worker. And secondly, and I'm really curious, because this is real life, and it's already happening back in the day. It was, you're sick? Do you look sick? Do you look like are you dripping from your face? So that you're going to scare the guest? Because if not, your butt better be here doing your job? You know what I mean? Because whereas now, that's just not cool. You can't do that anymore. So how's that working out?

Well, yeah, not great. Really, what we've done is we have an extra person on staff

who can cover when somebody calls out sick, so it's not that disruptive. And we might have to put somebody on overtime to sort of cover it. But we have enough bodies at the moment to deal with this, especially now as you know, we're so terrified of some of the things the moment somebody thinks they're sick, or like, you have to get a PCR COVID test and don't come back until it's negative. But I don't know if we'll absolutely continue doing this. But we we basically have an extra person on staff, which is kind of the only way it would work with you know, somebody, if you had a lot of parents. You have to have an extra body who can who can fill in or who you know, can really float between a number of different positions. So you're not totally screwed,

right? Or they need to figure out a way to have daycare not work that way. I don't know, it is a huge problem. And like, the reason why I had to stop using normal daycare was because for years, you know, I was flexible enough that I could do whatever. But then once I started having to be in a particular place at a particular time, and you know, he can't do it anymore. Doesn't work. Yeah. No, no. But it's also

part of the problem is it's not just it's so hard to come back into the industry after you've had kids. Even if you had great childcare, we're not exactly the most accepting industry. Yeah. Like it's or like, once you're out, you're out.

Yeah. Yeah, in a lot of ways we suck as a group. Alright, so I'm going to do some questions, because I don't want to miss them. Because we have questions specifically for you. Also, do you? Do you do a lot of work with vacuum machines? Do you like vacuum machines got any current cool stuff? Because I got a question about vacuum machines, but I can hold it for later. If you're not interested in talking about vacuum machines.