Hello and welcome to cooking issues. This is another host of cooking issues coming to you. From the heart of Manhattan in Rockefeller Center on newsstands studios, joined as usual, but not in the studio. She's probably chosen in the coast of Connecticut, the Stasi to hammer Lopez how're you doing? Doing all right. Hi, feeling. You're not feeling so bad. A queen will not be with us today because he is also not feeling well. That's unfortunate. But we do have Jackie molecules in California. Have you done?

Some good, good, fresh off my backpacking trip?

Oh, yeah, we're gonna talk about remember we go through it. Now we introduce a special guest and then we shoot the breeze. Yes. Right. And then we should increase and then we should embrace rocking the panels. Here we have Joe Hasan as usual. How you doing Joe? I'm doing well. You looking good. Now? I'm really not looking that sweaty either today. Really? Yeah. That's bizarre.

He was when he showed up.

Oh, okay. Well, you know, yeah, I didn't know if you know, if you don't know, I just got to tell you. But the AC is down to the end. And I use a special trick. I kept my shirt unbuttoned on the bike up here and then buttoned down when I got close. Maybe that's what it is. Oh, the classics don't like. And of course we got John. How you doing? Doing great. Thanks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, you're doing as great as you were willing to talk about on the air.

I mean, there's water dripping in the kitchen at the restaurant right now. And it's stressful. But yeah, there's nothing I can do. So no point in being there. I'm not a plumber. So, case the restaurant? Well, no, that's what the owner reminded me. I was like, do I need to bail on the radio show to go deal with this? He was like, No, there's nothing you can do. And he's like, You're You're right. So Wow. Yeah. Okay. All right. I like that.

And before I apologize, we shot the breeze prior, right. Our special guests and super excited I've only met once. But she has a new book out. It's a rose levy Berenbaum, the author of all the cookbooks like all like all, any cookbook with it with the word Bible attached to it. That's worth reading. You've written Welcome. Welcome to the show. Thanks for coming on.

Well, thank you. And thank you for adding this fourth reading. Because since the first kick Bible since the first Bible, there have been big old Bibles. Everybody took that name, because they thought that was the secret for success.

Right? Well, I mean, it turns out, you also have to write the book that's worthy of the name Bible. It's also like when people say that complete X, Y, or Z, and, and you can lift it you're like, not really, though, you know what I mean? Like the complete whatever it is. But I mean, I think, you know, for those that for those that don't know, your work already, where have you been? And, you know, but you're well known for? being thorough and exhaustive, and all but never exhausting. And always writing a lot of like, very detailed instructions and testing your recipes. Would you say it's accurate?

I would say I would add reliable, because that's what people keep saying they know that when they do a recipe, it's going to work. And you can imagine the pressure of having that name Bible and things live up to it. I dictated the entire manuscript into a tape recorder and play the back against the first version to make sure that there was a single mistake in it and there wasn't

Wow, so what's what word is your dictation software get wrong the most?

Well, I shouldn't be using dictation but I tend to typist I'd say 180 words a minute. It's very hard to use dictation. But how many things I mean dictation gets a lot of things wrong. So that's why I steer away from it but the older I get the more things that are preserved my fingers typing like that can really wear you out

well our mutual friend Harold uses dictation software I believe he uses whatever one is called Dragon something dragon whatever it is dragon stone dragon whatever it is that

you know notes dragon my late husband designed the entire program vocabulary for radiology, and he kept encouraging me to use it and I did but now on Word and with a Mac because it's not compatible and their dictation you can't teach really. So it's not quite as good but what I do is I I don't dictate I type and then I read out loud and that makes a huge difference by my husband that Woody and I read back and forth and when you take take this differently from how when you take but the combination I think is the best.

And let me ask you this, what What program do you like to type into these days?

I'm using word

Ah yeah, me too. But everyone hates it. That's the worst thing to me when you tie no I don't understand why they all hate everyone hates him. I don't know why whether it's because like people are doing more collaborative work now and word sucks for collaborative work. Um, but like McGee uses Scrivener, right, but just I don't know, I can't be bothered to use some sort of specialty software, you know what I'm saying?

I do, and especially when you use something I mean, I've written 13 books on this board. And by the way, I just saw how last week was when he was doing a book events is omnivore and he stuffed him because he lives right nearby to say, Hello. There's a really nice picture on social media. So great to see him.

Can I tell you an embarrassing fact that all three of us have in common have never, never been on before books? How embarrassing is that?

Well, are you on the East Coast?

Yes. But I mean, it's not like I've never been to the West Coast. You know what I mean?

Like, No, I didn't mean to imply that. I mean, it'd be really criminal if you lived here and never went. Yeah, like since your book is there's.

So John and I both felt terrible, because we'd also until last year, never been to Barney slot next.

Well, that too, was about kitchen arts and letters all

the time. Yeah, Matt. Matt comes on. Mac comes on this show. I don't know, once every other month or so he's our he's our current, we used to have a segment called classics in the field where we would go over, you know, you know, we actually, we've mostly chose classics that people don't read as much anymore. So your books haven't come up. Because most people still read. You know, things. Things like that, by the way, for anyone listening on Patreon, call your questions. 2917410 1507. That's 917-410-1507. And John writes on how to become a patreon member

patreon.com/cooking issues. Go for it rose.

Oh, I was just gonna say that. Speaking of classics, we're working right now on the complete new edition and revision of the cake Bible for its 35th anniversary. It's now 34th anniversary. So yes, it's so much has changed in three years, even. So I was 40 years ago, I started writing it. So you can imagine with work it is, but it's worth it. So in several new pictures, everything but it'll be larger.

Right? But like, I mean, are you? Are you allowed to say that? Because then people are gonna wait to buy the current book is you're eating into your own royalties here? Because they can buy it and be like, Oh, no, they have to buy it right again, you know?

No, we talked to them. Actually, there was a lot of things that won't be in the new book that were in the old book. And a lot of people are saying, well, the two are going to be side by side. So I would encourage people to get it right away before it goes out of print. But there'll be a transition. I'm sure it'll be around for a while. So give

us a little taste when you say things have changed other than the ovens are different and slash probably better, or at least different and more reproducible in some ways. What else? What else do you think has changed?

I think what I'm most proud of, and I wrote an article for the LA Times syndicate about 25 years ago, it was called way to bake. I think over 90% of baking books now are weighing. And the difference now between the original version and this one is that we've gotten rid of ounces completely. That was always so confusing, because liquid ounces and way down to their nuts are not the same. And so it's going to be a cleaner design. And since it'll be wider, we can we don't have to have the sidebar, we can have a more easy to follow up kind of design. So that's just one thing, the ingredients have changed. The proportion of yolk to white and an egg is shrunk because they're using younger laying hens. And that makes a huge difference in the genoise which needs the egg yolk and they aren't separated. So we're actually separating all the eggs of flour, they now have come up with what they call an unbleached cake flour. And it doesn't work for many of the cakes. So I was able to in the current printing actually add the word leached in front of everyone but I never I never had to write bleach cake flour because the only Kinsler that existed was breached. Right

conversation with I had a conversation with someone at King Arthur about this and I asked them what they add to their cake flour to mimic the chlorination which is what you need to keep the high ratio cakes up, you know obviously and they add so I think they add some sort of pregelatinized wheat starch to it because they do add wheat starch to it. And I was but you don't think it's effective enough? Or is it brand by brand?

No, as soon as they came out with the latest version, I asked him to send it to me and I was so disciplined. It looked like nothing I love King Arthur Flour, but not the cake flour. It doesn't the cake doesn't look like anything like it is on the box. Even though I follow the instructions, the way I'd expect people to fall in line. But what I advise them to do is what they do in England, and that's how they heat treat the flour and that's almost identical to the bleaching. The only difference is a slight difference in flavor. Because chlorine bleach gives kind of floral quality, but the point is it has that fine texture which it does not have an unbleached flour. I really thoroughly investigated this because the entire British Commonwealth can't use it. Flower. So it was someone named case cold in the UK and in Devon, England, who actually tried the heat treatment that they do in industry and found that it worked. And I actually went with her, I went to work with her in England to see the difference between our flower and their flower. So that was a wonderful thing. Because people all over the world, then were able to make cakes that rose to the same height and had the same fine texture. So keep flour.

So what's the what's the procedure then for the for the bake out?

Well, I haven't actually a chapter in all of my books since debate, including the baking Bible. What you do is I can't tell you exactly how long but you microwave it for a few minutes. And then she says it's best to let it sit overnight because it gets slightly losing some of its moisture, but still would work. And then it's just like another flower, like a bleached cake flour.

Interesting. I will do some I will do some research.

Well, she was wondering why her cakes came out so much lower than mine. And then she started checking what they do in industry, because the kids that you purchase commercially, were fine. And she found that that's what they do they heat treat. And I think we've made it available now to the consumer in England, which is wonderful.

Wonder why they can't use chlorine or they're not one of those EU? Well, it's not a eu anymore. But

well, you know, our USD is so strict, you would think that they wouldn't allow it if something was bad. And chlorine dissipates. So I don't really understand that. I don't get into the politics of it. I do it works. I'm glad that we can still have it.

I mean, it's added to half of our water supplies. I think the issue point Yeah, I think that the the issue is that there's such a revulsion against the level of intervention in something like flour and how far it's gotten away from, you know, wheat as a as a thing that they, you know, they're throwing away the baby with the bathwater. And I would bet that 99 out of 100, people don't understand that the bleaching isn't just about because there's there's other ways of bleaching as well, right, that don't that don't have the effect that you and I want, right? It's chlorine bleach specifically isn't just about making the flower white, it's about it's about increasing its ability to hold water so that you can do a high ratio cake. Right? So it because the ingredients, right? So because I see it as a functional ingredient, it there's nothing at all bad about it. But whereas people see it as like, oh, white flour is bad flour. Therefore, if it's whiter, it's more bad. I think that's what it's from, I don't know.

Well, and also this whole political issue of GMO, like current editor wouldn't even allow the GMO I had to say what is the other word was when something is organic for these cornstarch, and actually run for is not organic, GMO, and that's why it works better than genoise. It makes it the fire texture, using the right amount of egg yolks and the non GMO corn starch, you get the finest texture. And this all began because somebody wrote to me saying all of a sudden husband was this course and it never had been. And I thought okay, well, I didn't know what she's doing. But how can I know? And it happened to me on a 12 inch wedding cake. Shin was, that's what I got in zip and found out it was the last for the full amount of the egg yolk. And it was using non GMO corn starch that would make that would help was it

was I wonder I'd have to look at it. What's the difference in the starch grit? Because also, that's another thing nobody really thinks about is the actual structure of starch granules being different from starch to starch. You know what I mean? It's like something that people

Yeah, this is the thing and the baking powder, the aluminum baking powder, you might notice that the cake was in a pie crust if you use aluminum based baking powder, which is more commonly available. It gives a nasty taste. I remember when we're doing the photo shoot for the peace to Bible and Marie gonna show he said, This tastes awful. And I said well, I asked Roscoe that so it was the styles. So what what kind of baking powder did you use? And he said just the regular one or go whatever it was. And I said that's it. And a cookie you can really say stuff. Because there's so little else going on with a cake. There's so many elements. Maybe you can get away with it, but not with cookie or Putco So speaking of color, you don't even use baking powder. It's being a cooking standard pie crust because

you like it and I don't really I don't use it much. I tried to do everything to keep it as as you know, not puffy as possible. I duck the heck out of my when I blind bake. I don't I duck the hell out of it. So that it doesn't puff up cuz I don't use pie weights. I hate pie weights. I hate them.

I don't do that. Well, yes, no. I sometimes use pie weights because I don't want for example making a pecan pie. I don't want to have any holes that mean that skill up to still stick ruthlessly to the bottom of the pan? The plate. But yes, but what cookies in order to keep them from popping up. And how would we agree on Harold McGee, that if you use baking of use unbleached flour, then it ties up more of a water and doesn't cost as much and also doesn't spread as much. And those cookies are very simple, but there's so few ingredients, but understand what the different ones do gives you control to get what you want. And a lot of people feel well I want crunchy, I want flat I want puffy. This is how you get it by this few simple ingredients and how you use them, like baking soda, it will make the cookies brown more and more quickly doesn't just take away acidities using brown sugar. It's also used for browning. So there are a lot of interesting things to know. And you know exactly as people say cookies are so easy. And they are except that compared to a cake. If you're making one batter, you just put it in the pan and a bakes. But if you're making cookies, you have to shape at least 12. So it's a little bit more labor intensive, but they are more forgiving. But you can take a pinch of dough off of it with that and see is it spreading too much do I maybe need more flour it's too sticky. Or it's not sweet enough I can need and more sugar. Can't do that with a Firecrest become a cardboard by Chris.

Going back to leaveners and the British you ever play around with ammonia bass leaveners and those thin cookies that they bake out dry so you can't smell the ammonia anymore? I've never tried it.

I could try it once and I wasn't impressed. I probably use something that well is more like baking cutter baking soda. That was combination is already done for you. I saw no differences no benefit. And I have a lot of really skinny cookies in the cookie Bible.

Yeah, I wonder why they use it over there? Was it cheaper? Is it just what they're used to? Like? I never understood why bother getting into something that if you don't fully bake it out, it makes everything unpalatable. I never understood it.

Really? Yeah, I didn't use it. To be honest. Maybe they didn't. They didn't have availability of the other stuff. And also, it doesn't have a shelf life the way baking powder does.

Really, I guess it probably won't because it's volatile, right? So it'll go off mean literally go off.

Will this it's not if it's not stored, but baking powder, you can if you store Titleist after a year, this way it was date mon or something is effective.

One of the things you write in the cookie Bible is that is it the the volume to weight ratio of baking powder is very dependent on your humidity.

All right, good. You did? Absolutely don't remember that? Yes, you do. Because these days, humidity is pretty well controlled in most places. That's truly I find here I am.

Yeah, what's your humidity? What's like, my average humidity is a lot lower than I thought because I have the air conditioner on in the summer. So my average humidity in my house is a lot lower than I would have expected. And my flowers therefore a lot dry. You know, I mean, like, what else I'm writing a book now, most supposedly, and, you know, I was kind of really worried about water in my dry ingredients, like how much moisture is there. So you know, I did a pretty careful measurement of, you know, with very calibrated humidities. And it's quite a huge difference in my house. But then my house was a lot drier than I thought it was, do you find that the average person's house is drier than they think it is?

Well, you know, thermal works now that they have this wonderful thermal pen that is accurate. So within a second, they also now have something that will measure humidity. But I don't go around to people's houses taking the humidity global, although it's tempting sometimes, but I've worked all over the country. And I have not found any difference really in how things work other than Marang. If it's really humid, there could be a problem with Marang. That that's something also, in addition to being proud of having converted people to weight over volume, is that also using the right amount of baking of cream of tartar. With egg whites, you'll never dry out the egg was you know all the instructions say beat until stiff but not dry. And if you drive them out, they break down so they use all your aeration in that liquid angel food or chiffon. But if you use an eighth of a teaspoon of kind of tartar, which isn't acid, that q1 egg white, which normally had been 30 grams or two tablespoons, each can be till the cows come home work has may not come home in a half hour but I have eaten as long as I have and it never breaks down. The thing is that if you don't wait or at least take the volume, you're now getting more yoke or more weight because if there's less yoke, that means there's more weight, you know, so that's one of the things that's really invaluable to know because it makes a big difference. And why

do you prefer

that humidity right?

Why do you prefer cream of tartar as opposed to other acids? Let's say lemon juice just because it has less of a flavor impact or easier to dose for you or

all these not so it's easier to dose with that It's the right level of acidity. And it's just as natural. It's a byproduct of the winemaking industry. Natural kind of chemical. Yeah. Yeah, it's just it works. And I've found that it never gets old, none of it. In other words, it doesn't dissipate, you've probably worked too, but you're right, it would give it flavor.

You wrote that though, if you add either too little or too much, it doesn't stabilize. Like there's a very sharp kind of peak of stabilization. It's right around that that level of that level of added acid Correct.

Well, this is a thing I tested and I kept increasing it little by little, and at a certain point, it went the other direction. That didn't help but that's another issue is that no two sets of baking of measuring spoons is the same. So you have to have a little bit leeway. Here. The one thing that really changes the way by measuring is baking powder have discovered and the only way you can get an actual total standard is either by weighing or by sifting it into the spoon and then it's always the same but salt is always six grams per teaspoon. Baking soda is always the same 5.5 but they can powder theories that I have because it settles I don't maybe it does I just have never gotten to the bottom of it. What I have a really fun skill for way I can set the standard

brand what brand assault do you use? By the way? What's your go to salt?

Well, I'm glad you asked me that because I can never understand why people would use kosher salt for baking things are fine Cecil's I always say well, you're not close to God because you're using kosher salt. I mean it's great for your soul things chicken or meat there but not for baking.

I don't I use it. I

use Belen but any funds

I use, I use it for everything. Because it's what I have, you know what I mean? I only stock finishing salts and and diamond kosher. But um, but I get your point. And so it was also like, on a stovetop kosher is so much easier. I mean, I get your point with baking but you know, on a stovetop kosher is so much easier to dose than you know, if you're just doing it by hand, you know what I'm saying? Exactly right. So what I do is I always dissolve my salt in the liquids and not in and I never put the salt in with the solids. I guess that's the way I get around it. But

brilliant. Well, yeah. Okay, so that was I was going to be hard to distribute evenly but the dissolving it and the liquid is perfect solution.

Well, you know who thought of it? Is? My eyes? Monroe, Boston Strauss. Yeah. Who I apply marches on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you want

to get something really funny about our mutual friend Harold McGee, I wrote to thank him some years back about thanking him for coming up with a wonderful technique of rolling with the butter with the flour in a sealed bag, to flatten it out to make pie crust more flaky, which works beautifully. And you know, any Brokeback you were the one who taught me that you're all these people not giving credit and acknowledgement, there was a lot of people here we are trying to pass it to each other.

Well, you know, that's something I noticed in your writing is you always take some time to say where you got a recipe from or where you got an idea from. And there was a period where people I don't think we're doing that as much. But I find that in the long run in the long term, it makes the world a richer place for people to reach back in their writing. And in that allows, it just allows for, I like to think of like, like a scholarship of a recipe are of a technique and it just is so generous to say where something came from and also makes I think the writer look smarter, saying, you know that this is where they got it from. Or no,

I love that you said this the way you said it's so beautiful. Yeah, that's the kind of history I'm interested in. We all build on each other. If I tried to think about something I really invented from scratch I do have one thing is chocolate rolled fondant, which is now being produced commercially in Australia. But there was no such thing. There was plastic, which wasn't worth eating. But I did create funds in a day set on a white fondant. So yeah, I mean, there's nothing that people invent totally. So it's really interesting to see where things come from, how they evolve, and how they change when the ingredients change, or the technique changes.

What do you think? I know, I can almost understand guessing what you're gonna say but like, the current way that the current way that people learn cooking, I was talking to somebody, you know, randomly, right? And they're like, oh, everyone just gets their information off of YouTube and Tiktok now everyone can know everything. And I was like, oh my god, oh my God.

Everything has become much smaller as all I can say. First of all, tick tock is great for quick tips. And I love to. But for recipes, I wouldn't go there. I mean, the thing is that initially, I thought that video was the way to go. And I did video and I had a PBS show and best way is really seeing a step by step and only one of my books. grossest, breaking basics has suffered for every recipe. And even I like to look at those steps. Oh, yeah, that's the way it's supposed to look like at that stage or this stage. But if you're trying to do a video, you have to keep stocking it with your sticky fingers. Mr. Court,

right. Well, yeah. And also, like what you said that you go back and look at your, at your own stuff. And I think people I mean, you've been writing books since 1981, right, roughly since 1981. And so when you've been doing something at a high level for a long time, it's like when you're cooking in a restaurant, like you get really good at a particular dish, and your hands and your brain, and everything is tied together. And then if you don't do it for 510 years, it's not that you've completely forgotten it. But it's not you're not at the same place. And it's unreasonable to think that anybody could stay at the same place for forever, without doing it all the time. You know what I mean?

I've often thought of that, because people say, what is your recipe, one that you remember, after 13 books and their big books? I can't remember my recipes. Maybe some of them? I do. But during COVID, I did so much cooking that I actually did remember a lot of things. What's more, it was kind of liberating, because I didn't have to follow what I've written at one point and said, well, it says blah, blah, blah. And I thought, women, it's me, I'm the one who can change it. I don't have to follow.

Although you are very clear that and, you know, this is something that anyone who writes recipes has to has to worry about, at least make it once the way it's written. And just it should make it once the way it's written.

Exactly what I say. Yeah, yeah. And if you want to, to, at least, substitute just one ingredient, you'll really appreciate this having had the same editor. As I regard to Shelly, we were at Macy's, the customers that was doing and her husband came, John came along, and somebody stood up and asked the following question, can you substitute something for the banana? And I said, in the banana cake, and before I could say anything more, like why make the banana cake? John pipes up with? Yeah, watermelon. It was just the perfect New York squelch. The first thing you learned and the first thing you learn basic science in high school, even in junior high school is the variable don't do more than one variable at a time because otherwise you don't know what is creating the effect that you're getting. Yeah, and

really depresses me when I read like that word substitute. Yeah, when I read reviews of recipes, and like either they hated it and they subbed out half the rest, half the recipe or they loved it, and they subbed out half the recipe. I'm like, neither. Neither, please. You know what I mean? I it's just somebody.

Yeah, somebody just somebody recently just wrote to me that the witches, cookies and the cookie bible are my favorite that aren't as sweet as other ones. You know, the thing is that I don't like cookies that are too sweet. None of them is too sweet except for Marang. And in order like a macaron I never liked them because there's a sweet, but Thomas Keller came up with a wonderful concept of making mousseline butter cream as his kind of barrier with lemon, the lemon curd version of it and the lemon curd in the center. So it really mitigates against all that sweetness. So when I came up with an answer, first of all, the pepper conquers have a lot of spice. So you don't get a sense of these are two sweets, but the ones that really aren't too sweet at all are the jumbles because they have just the bare amount of dough enough to hold together all the nuts and nuts are in sweet, anything a little salty, which is nice, but it was hard to answer at first. Okay, I'm not answering. And my husband when he said, Well, you have to answer you know, because we answer everybody. And that's the benefit of having a blog because every book has errors in it. I mean, here's the really interesting Production error. One of my favorite recipes is the oatmeal cookies. And well I had the volume is correct. I think it's one and a half cups, but the wage was 90 grams, and it was correct in the galleys. You know, not everybody knows galleys is the first stage. They send out for the advance copies and their

magic dinner so they're mad. They're maddening. It's so much is wrong in a galley and they don't want to change anything.

I knew. Well wait until you would happen. So then the hardcopy and the PDF comes up and the 90 grams becomes 52 grams. Nobody can figure out how or why. So you wring your hands you'll but there is a benefit to having a Plug where you can put a router which we now have changed to correction because people thought it was a porn thing. It's not erotic erotica, which means in Latin,

I guess I guess we could combine them. We could do a combination of the two and something. So this reminds me a funny story. I won't call out the actual author but Anastasia and I have a mutual friend who, when they did the the galleys they put in the low res images into the galleys. Okay, wait for it stars. You know what I'm gonna say, right? I'm not gonna say who it is. But, yeah, so anyway, I won't give away who it was. But then for the first printing, they actually printed it with the low res JPEGs. So it looked like Like, like, a high school science report circa like, 1998. I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, publishing.

I didn't see that when I get a lot of cookbooks, you could imagine.

That was depressing. He or the other thing that again, stars, don't worry. I'm not gonna say who it was. But like, he is also extremely meticulous person. You know what I mean? So it's like, I don't know. I think it almost killed him. Anyway. I'm pretty sure it sounds cool. So

interesting. Interestingly, the recipes will still work. Yeah, yeah.

Right. No bakery because they're gonna be like, Why is it so fuzzy, I'm not gonna bake that it's too fuzzy. You know what I'm saying people are the worst. I mean,

actually, that actually, that happened in one of my books, too. I can't remember which I think was the he Bible and not in the first printing, but somehow they came up fuzzy. And you know, what happened when they came by was that I was going to send it to Oprah. I did send it to Oprah Winfrey because she was considering getting married at that time to an offer to make her cake and I signed it opens up pretending I was Oprah to see how she would feel and it was upside down everything was anything can happen in publishing don't blame the author.

I know and then on Amazon if that happens, they're like book was printed upside down one star and you're like, come on, people.

Exactly. They make your booklet. Yeah, yeah, people they can ruin you

for no reason for no apparent reason. There's there's a book that I saw Yeah, yeah, they had like the first printing was wrong and if you look at their Amazon review the Amazon review and then people don't buy the book because of the Amazon review because no one reads to see why it has a low Amazon review. I like to do that because I love to hate poorly done reviews. Like I love to go on Amazon find reviews that I find are made by executables expert will stupid people and figure and like just like go to town on him. And my wife's like, again, Dave again with the reading the Amazon reviews. And I don't do it on my own because that wouldn't be too heartbreaking. But I do it like on other people's work, and it's just like, Yeah, you know,

I gotta tell you the funniest one that was awful one that I ever got was the woman who said she threw the kids Bible in the garbage. And then she, her moniker was horse lady and I couldn't resist. I wrote my comments back was if I were a horse, I sure wouldn't want you on my back. I couldn't help it. And they had Amazon Willie Morrow said Rose never put something negative take it right off. Never respond to a negative way. But sometimes I get the my sense of humor gets the better of me. And of course she she criticized me for being inappropriate.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you say that you throw like you know, my work in the garbage and I can't say anything negative back doesn't make it is not smart to do though your ever your contact was was correct in that it's not in general best not to engage. But on the other hand, I don't you know, crap on crap on that person. crap on horse lady. That's on this day? I don't know.

Yeah, but I have to tell you that somebody else who could criticize me and told me I should cut my hair and have a mole removed on my face. And I wrote to her, I mentioned that Nigella Lawson has even longer hair and that, you know, this is I just answered her a nice way and she turned out to be my greatest ally. Turns out she was in South America and she loves my work. And it's true. It's a truism, but it really works that if you can respond with kindness, 90 have a better chance of getting a good response back, but you'll never get a good response back with a negative.

Why did she care about the length of your hair? Like why was that even germane to like, like your cookbook writing skills because

she thought as a baker that it wasn't appropriate to have hair that might get into the baking but the problem is that if you have short hair, you can see when it gets in the in the batter, but if you've long here, it's very obvious. There's almost an advantage.

Yeah, Ding ding ding Yeah.

Just want to criticize that they have to find something find

that the truth some people and nowadays basically, I feel it's even more hardcore because it's much easier to criticize something than it is to than it is to like act understand and say something constructive or nice. And so there's like, there's so much criticism out there, because it's just so much easier. You know, criticism is so much easier.

People enjoy reading that more, too. Yeah, yeah.

So before we talk more a cookie, and I have a lot of cookie to talk to you in the next in the next 24 minutes and 39 seconds, but I want to hear a little bit about this. So you wrote for, you know, up until, like, 2002 2003 2004. Right, so we're talking about you've already done cake Bible, you've already done pastry Bible, you've already done or had almost finished at least bread Bible. And, and all by yourself, not me, I'm not gonna say no, one's an island, but you know, I mean, like, not with a collaborator. And then all of a sudden, you start corresponding with this guy, Woody, Woolston, and becomes your collaborator. And now after your your husband passed in 2019, now you're married and collaborating? Like, what's that like that, like after you've already done so much work? To have a collaborator with you? What what is that? Like?

I never would have expected that I could trust somebody on that level. And when I first met him, he thanked wonderful take from the book says he actually brought to the maid, but he didn't really have the knowledge of baking the way I do. So he was totally trainable. It reminds me of when I went to study at Wilton cake decorating and I never squeezed anything out of a PhD. And again, they said, This is great, you'll learn the Wilson way that you don't have to unlearn stuff. So over the years, he kept getting better and better. And what a miracle it is to have somebody who can actually help me do stuff and come up with things and have a different point of view, who excels at Excel, I have a horror of the spreadsheet. Me he offers a lot of things that I wouldn't have. And I remember when I worked for Dr. Good buddy many years ago, that's very good buddies, father. And she's one of the people that she and Chris Campbell started cooks magazine. And when I worked with him, you said, marriage is the double barreled approach to life. And I'm not one who shoots gun, so I didn't know what he meant, for definition, and you said that you'd have a larger vision than just looking through your own personal one. So working with Woody now, I don't think I could do that revision for the cake Bible. It's too massive. If I didn't have him to work with, it's just the greatest gift to have this. And of course, when we were about to finish was about to go to press the Baking Basics, or the ice cream book, or no, maybe we were cooking. But anyway, the point is that was about to go to press and they said you cannot make a single other change or correction. And I said, Woody, this is it. It's our last chance. And I wrote to the editor. Well, I do have one more to make. And that's instead of saying to Woody, my assistant or associate, I want to add and now my husband and I got the response back. Wow. So that must be the cookie Bible.

Because it's recent now. Well, congratulations.

Here's how it happened. I mean, I felt like we were married by them. Because before my late husband died, Elliot, he said teach us separately, what you should move in and take care of Rose. So it was just like a blessing that he gave the very loving thing to so what do you one day said? Can I have a wedding ring? Can I get a wedding ring? And I said here is my 100 keychain. And it was a perfect fit. The ring we designed for him is one like a key ring. I like the original ones kind of sentimental

to Honda. Yeah, I've lost. I don't take my my wedding ring off when I when I cook or when I do anything. And yet I've lost one of them was crimped around my hand had to be cut off. And one I lost a lot of weight and I lost it in the surf. Another I lost literally milking a cow. So I'm like on my fourth ring. Now weird.

It should have it should just have to dawn I know it's

easier. You know what I have now? My brother my brother in law, Wiley, you know do frame chef, so he loves anything stainless. So yeah, he turned me on to stainless steel rings. So my wedding ring now is stainless very chef friendly stainless ring. I mean, obviously,

I have a second one as my grandmother's. Well mine is from 19 My grandmother's sister 1933. It's the circle of diamonds. And so I had were made to look like a key race. That's a circle of black diamonds. And then that ring finger for some reason started getting swollen and I thought maybe Black Diamond have a bad effect. I'm not sure it's good for the body to wear things full time without ever taking it off. Yeah, I

mean, I don't know stainless so I haven't taken it off. Yeah, I haven't lost this one yet. What was brilliant. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, and also why are we living while he lives? He lives in what same neighborhood that's right to the right to the west of Union Square. Like, right to the west, and it's not Chelsea. It was kind of below Chelsea. It's I don't know what the name of it is. It's without name. It's not. It's not it's not grammar seeds below Chelsea. It's like, I don't know. He can walk to Union Square Greenmarket.

Sort of West Village maybe lived in that area almost all my life. It's about love while he please say hello to him.

Yeah. Well, for those who for those who who know him personally, he lives in the house that he lives in now in the apartment, he grew up and they bought it from his mom. So his mom decided to move up to Connecticut. And yeah, so they live in that apartment now. So it's nice. It's nice. And my wife did the redesign for my Western architects. So you know, keep keep it on the family. Keep it on the family. Yeah.

Nice getting to know you here. I mean, we only miss it two seconds, we actually have a chance to exchange some real information other than cooking.

So speaking of real information, so one of the so your first book, by the way, the first book that you wrote was romantic, and classic cakes, right? And it was for the great American closed school series, which I don't own. It's one of those weird series I don't own. Why don't they own that series? We got to have that on classics in the field at some point, like, what do you think of that series?