Hello and welcome to cookies. This is Dave older host of cooking futures coming to you live from the heart of Manhattan Rockefeller Center newsstand Studios in New York City. How you doing? I got stars, the hammer Lopez as usual everything good? Yes. Yeah. Nice. Got John here as well back from vacation. Where were you, John? Dominican Republic. We'll talk about that in one second. We got Joe rockin the panels here. Hey, how are you doing? Doing well, too. Well, thank you. Oh, yeah. And then in Vancouver Island, we have a course Quinn, how you doing? Quinn? Please say you're there. Quinn's got this magic internet connection, that there's one IP address because he has to Skype in all right. He has to Skype in and there's one magic IP address. He can never call without dropping even though he has like the fancy microphone, everything that happens to be our studio. So we work on it week to week. We'll see what happens. And we'll work on it. People. What do we do the best weekend? And we have in California. We got Jackie molecules. How're you doing?

I'm great. Yeah, overcast day in LA, which is like your version of a nice day on the East Coast.

Well, no, that's my version of a nice day in LA. I mean, can I go there now and experience la in a way that I would like it without that evil sun beating on me, like, melting me on purpose. I mean, I mean, if I could make it overcast in LA 100% of the time, I would tell Booker, I don't know I would knock them out like Mr. T put them on an airplane Member Mr. T from a team, put him on an airplane and take them out there. He'd be like, this isn't New York and like says who? Says who says who? It's not New York. Look, it's overcast. And then like that'll be it over? So Jack, I have a new idea. I'm going to introduce the guest right away and now we can shoot the breeze. What do you think in general that way they can shoot the booms? Will you like that? Alright,

what did you do? Well, today's

special guest is Michael Scott has known you since I don't know like now 12 years, something like that ever since. Back in the French culinary days. How you doing? Well.

Thanks for having me. Yeah.

So for those you that don't know, they don't know. For years, Michael was the pastry chef I met met him when he was a pastry chef at Liberty den which is you know, of course well known. Depending on how many stars you gave three or four star restaurant here in New York known for fish. Fish. They do they do fish. And it's the most famous fish restaurant in New York anyway. And then after that went to the Institute of Culinary Education, where I didn't talk to him for a while because of course they were mortal enemies back when I was at the FCI. But of course, you know, in the in the Highlander battle of freakin you know, there can be only one in New York FCI lost and ice one. So there is no more FCI and eyespot FCI it was a slap and in our faces, what do you what do you think about that?

You know, I mean, I was actually kind of sad to hear it. You know, because it was a great space. I mean, we all love Dorothy. But yeah, I mean, time marches on, I guess.

Yeah, so it's kinda like You're like that Sparta dude who just like kind of kicks us into that pit.

I mean, I pity you. To be honest, I think most of the faculty now are all the holdovers from FCA.

I know you have a lot of good people there you have like, well, how's it so like, We didn't shoot the breeze. And now we have to go back and shoot the breeze before we get into it. So if you're listening live on Patreon, call in your questions. 2917410 1507 That's 917-410-1507 Call us with all of your pastry or being the bar or having worked in several cities in the United States kind of a situation or what it's like to work at a three star Michelin restaurant or for New York Times depending on what you care more about whether you like the what's that guy's name? The Michelin Man was in Billund, Bo Ben Ben. Bob. What's his name? Bill Bill villain

VM

B Vendetta. What the hell's that mean, John?

I don't know. Sounds Latin sounds fancy.

Be Ben. Be Ben dumb rabbit. Satan. French though sound better in French.

be random.

Not real. Now. Now. It's just is. It's just as Yeah, yeah. And who has white tires anyway?

That's true. Yeah, nobody. Nobody.

I mean, maybe even way back the white walls. white wall tires. Yes. White tires. What is this my BMX bike from 1980? Freakin two. Come on, guys. So now we're going to shoot the breeze Michael. So this works. So how was the der? I'd never been.

That was very nice. Yeah, great, great weather. Punta Cana. Yeah, it was good. How's my girlfriend's birthday? So we went to this all inclusive resort down there and it was my first time doing that was there a nice smooth all

inclusive makes me nervous because I don't know how the quality the food's going to be because

grits, but it's all you can eat. So you get a little sampling at the buffet. All you can drink if you're into that. So

like we You say all you can eat like is it like put it on a level I can understand in America the where the bottom level no fence is going to be Golden Corral and like the top level because I've never been to a buffet in Vegas the Caesars Palace buffet is pretty excellent I've never been to it but like like a tourist Korea kind of a place so like in that kind of range where are you? Probably in the middle so like lower than a chairs Korea but are lower than Vegas? I don't know again I've never Vegas

was really good. Oh, I'll say enjoyed that narrow nine plates of food when I was there was quite good.

So above Golden Corral, though. Yes, definitely. Did they have a poorly run soft serve machine with really crystally bad bass coming out of it because that's what I remember from Golden. I ate a lot of it though.

They had really bad hibachi bad hibachi Yeah, everything was viciously overcooked and we didn't even do the onion volcano.

Wow. Yeah, well, it just No, I've never had an onion volcano. Can you describe the onion volcano means something

to really eat. It's more just for the show. But they kind of like take a thick slice of onion and stack them one on top of each other. So looks like a volcano and then they fill it with a little Sakhi or mirin or something like that and set it on fire and smoke comes rushing out and a little flame and then it just sort of peters out. And sounds so delicious, though. No, it's again for visuals but hibachi is about the show. Okay, mostly

good about the beating heart jump out the beating heart on what's the beating heart,

the fried rice that they shape into a heart. And what do they do deck they put the specials under and kind of like tap it up and down so it looks like a beating heart. Yeah, yeah.

I do not understand. Benihana man. I've never been I've never been to a Benihana but can I tell you this? Have I said this on air before? My mom when she was in the ER once like young I think before she like it was a rotation maybe in med school because she's pediatrics so she would never see an adult normally, right? A Benihana. A Benihana chef came with their finger almost completely severed. Yeah. Sweet.

Now at an all inclusive resort like that. Do you do like excursions? Are you you present? Can

you you can do excursions that's for an extra fee of course, but are they have like

I'm not too far from Prime cacao growing. That's true.

I don't think they had anything like that. Unfortunately, not very food centric. See some very nice

you have to spend extra money for them to not serve you the food that they have prepared for you.

Well, if you want to leave the site, you have to pay extra money for that. But otherwise, if you're free, what the

hell is what is that normal? How does it if you want to leave you pay extra? That sounds like prison. You know what I mean? Like whatever you

don't really want to leave because everything is right there for you. Okay,

everything Oh, speaking of going back for a second Am I the only person I just want to know the level of the room? Am I the only person here that's eaten in a Golden Corral? I think so. Oh my god. No, they used to be the thing grandma and grandpa would take me right when that sucker opened up at like five be there. Yeah. Okay, that's just me then. So John, why don't you tell them how they can join the Patreon if they would like to

patreon.com/cooking issues on there's a bunch of great you know, three different levels of membership where you get different perks at each level. If you sign up you get discounts to kitchenettes and letters, discounts to made in and Grove and Vine for olive oils and all these great things from the guests that we have on the show. So you know the membership kind of pays for itself really.

Anytime we have a guest on the show, we try to get a little try to get a little kicker for our for our Patreon folk. If they have something to kick if they have something to kick. I'm not saying that you have to kick us something Michael That's not how this works. Not it's not pay for play situation. Although wouldn't that be nice? That would be Yeah, it would be nice. All right. So also, I'm gonna say Andrew Hi, I thank you for the book on chafing dishes. I have not gotten to read it yet because the last week you haven't shaved me booked by other things to Chief other than my dish during the past week. However John and I tasted your toothache plant because Shazza and what was our verdict John

not my cup of tea.

What's it for Andrew? Okay, so for those of you that don't know like like one of the things you do with Cushaw says he's so you so crap in it right? So you know I've seen it with whatever sometimes like animals like there's two people will do like snakes and weird things. People will do fruits like cashew apple or like, you know, I don't know what are you seeing you've seen these right Michael Have you seen these things around? And yeah, so this one is this toothache plant which I don't know but apparently they sell it at the at the Green Market here in Union Square. You ever use this stuff? I've tasted it. What do you think about it?

I think I think it's in the more interesting than delicious category.

There you go. Yeah. This is what they think about you. This is what they think about Philo's you that no ice cube anyway. The like, I'm going to taste it again. But I have to say, poisonous tasting, poisonous, tasty. Like I'm trying. I'm trying to imagine what we would use it for other than as like a Mullard situation. For those of you that don't know, my Lord is the Chicago in version of busca drop bar which is a hardcore bitter warm wood shot. I enjoy it. My Lord,

I enjoy it. I got some like with you right now with me right now. At the house. I had some Chicagoans I don't know. Bring me some because it was fabled. Legendaries bitter drink and I love bitter drinks. You love bitter drinks. Yeah, like Miller. I gotta like it too. Okay, Jesus.

All right, if I ever get the legit, again, like if I ever go to Sweden again. I'm gonna get you some of the like the real like busca drop our stuff. You know what I mean? It is not to be sneezed at we I had some that I forget who brought it for me. But we used it. It was a very specific size. So it was a perfect rolling pin for I forget what we were doing, but I always used it as a rolling pin. And not as a lick. Michael, can we talk rolling pins for a minute? Oh, sure. Are you a robot do you like I mean, that's not what you do. Mainly you work with chocolate now. But do you mean like Were you ever like a rolling pin fella?

I mean, sure. As a pastry chef, right? I don't know that I had strong opinions. No, I mean, I'm I'm a French pin guy. French paid. So Non. Non tapered for non tapered.

Okay,

just why just just more surface area. More contact.

Contact. Yeah, who else who else? Here's a rolling pin person. John, you rolling pin person. I know stars hates that crap. Right. So as you hit a rolling pin? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm putting words in your mouth. Anytime I asked her a question about big. I don't bake. What are you talking about? Making? It's hard. It's not that hard. You don't like it? Right? Yeah, lots of things are hard. You'd have to like it. Anyway. So John, what kind of pin to use?

I'd probably have to remove Michael,

you like you like? That's the first of all those pins are heavy. There. Yeah. How big is that? That's like an inch and a half, maybe? inch and a half to two. Yeah, yeah. And the untampered ones are typically made of like, I don't know whether they're maple or beach or wherever they are, but they're heavy. Like they are a weapon like you could very somebody who loved the club, the ever loving hell out of somebody. And what is nice, I have to say about those pins are usually relatively long. They they don't cut into the edge because you never really go off the edge of them because they're pretty long. And they also discourage you from they discourage you from a particular kind of bad rolling pin technique because you can't just wrap your hands around and go like an idiot. Right? You know what I

mean? Well, you know, one thing I always I was trying to teach people, a lot of people use a rolling pin and turn it into Jazzercise. Yay. And, and you do that all day long, that's a lot of energy you're expending right so I always teach people roll in one direction and then turn your dough 90 degrees and that way you're also ensuring that whatever you're rolling isn't sticking to your surface

right. Now. Now hear me out on the taper for a second right? Because at home I use a relatively you know, for years I use a relatively lightweight tapered French pin right? But not a great one right but it okay, you know what I'm saying? And then I started you know, the past year or so been trying to make sure potties work right so you know, ship parties are the Indian flatbread high hydration, right, they use autoflower autoflower is extremely finely ground so that it can absorb a lot of water. wholewheat zorbs a lot of water. So it's even though it's a dry dough, it's like 72% 73% Hydration so wet for how dry it feels. All right, yet, you have flour it and then you gotta roll it if you don't roll it thin enough. And if you don't roll it evenly enough, or if you tear it, then you have to cook it one side cook it the other side flip it flame it puffs, right you with me? But, but, but puff, if it doesn't pop it sucks, right? Right. No puff sucks. And it's not just a matter of have it, it doesn't have to you feel like bad. It doesn't taste as good if it doesn't puff right? The texture is wrong. Anyway. So I started rolling, and I started doing the old thing where I would roll it and then I would turn it, roll it, turn it, roll it, turn it, flip it, roll, turn it and then I just watched a bunch of videos and I realized that if you use a tapered pin, and I could probably do it without a tapered pin at this point because I practice a lot but it tapered pin helps you get this down more. I don't need to touch it to get it to rotate anymore. I can just go pit pit pit pit pit pit pit and it spins underneath me while I'm rolling because I push on one side as I go up and the other side as I go back. And the thing does. I can choose my Usually, I'm a counterclockwise. Spinner. Right? I haven't tested on PI dos yet. That's the next move. But I've been I've been I've been doing, you know, reliably, you know, what is that? Eight or 10 inches or so? Yeah. Eight to 10 inch disks real thin. Really even because you're not rolling in one spot without ever touching the dough. And feels fantastic.

I'll grant you for a smaller piece. Yeah, that those those tapered pens. They're super nimble. Yeah, I'll grant you that. But if you're doing like, lamination you want that battle axe? Have a have a pin, I think

yeah, yeah. Yeah. All right. When you see a student mistreat a pin and dented because they're a Butthead, does it make you angry or no?

I mean, I mean, we could we could sit here for an hour and just list those things that we see. That just make us cringe. Yeah, for sure.

Well, here's the other thing about a pin, right? There's two modes of thought on it. Not to go too deep on pins, but we already have. So I might as well go all the way right? You could either have a very smooth pin, which is not going to have a lot of traction on certain items. But I think that's actually fine. Or you can have a tacky like, like a like a less like not a wax. You know how they have the wax surface pins. Yeah. And they have the ones they're more like bowling pins, right feeling. And then they have the ones that are like, kind of like a little bit rougher wood. And I was always a little bit rougher, but I'm more of a smooth guy now. More of it smooth, shiny guy. Now what do you think? Yeah, I would agree. I would agree. I think people need to think more about their pets.

i You've got me thinking more about it. Now.

Yeah, there you go. How the hell did I get to that? Why did we why are we even talking about that? Why are we talking about pins

when we're talking about Dominican Republic? And so how did that get there? See, you're trying to find a lord.

My lord. Thank you, Jack. Oh, I use them a lot as a rolling pin. There you go. Not a good rolling pin. By the way. Bottles don't make good rolling pins people because they're just not they mean, it's an in a pinch kind of a situation. Right now. I mean, in a pinch. You do a lot of lamination these days, Michael.

I have actually, I'm one of the many projects I'm working on. I'm helping to open a bakery out in Dallas, Texas. Oh, yeah.

So you've never been to Dallas.

I will be going soon.

Do you own a Western hat yet?

I don't. Nor nor do I have cowboy boots.

I will get the hat first. Yeah. Although I don't know. It's me. I don't wear sunscreen. So I wear hats when I go out. Okay. Yeah, yeah. You get yourself a resist all when you're down there. yourself, you know, stars. What do you like? More like? You like more of a? What's What's it call them? Like a straw? Like, like, like a stiff straw hat. Are you like more like the felt hat? That fulfilled hat or neither?

Yeah, I'm not a hat guy. But

I don't know how I was very thankful at the age where I could be like, don't care. I'm wearing this hat socket. You know,

I mean, I mean, I think I'm getting to that age in general.

It's nice. Nice, nice snack here. All right. Now. We do have some questions. Let me see. From Delvian Groff thrilled to hear you're on the show. Michael. I loved your bean to bar class, by the way. So one of the things that you teach is being the bar chocolate, right?

Yeah. So that's been since about 2015, when, when the school moved from 23rd street down to Battery Park City. We had about 500 square feet of extra space. And we said, hey, let's do a bean to bar chocolate lab. So it's, I'm not gonna say we're the only facility doing bean to bar education, but we're one of the very few in the country. So yeah, if you'd asked me 10 years ago, you're gonna make chocolate or focus on chocolate from a manufacturing perspective, I would have said why. But now that's at least half of my life.

Well, who was the first kind of like pastry chef gone? chocolate maker Jacques Torres. Way back in the day?

Yeah. And you know, he never made a ton of his own. But he never seemed to though he never claimed to know. But but you know, I've also become a student of New York City chocolate history, like specific to New York City. And I kind of think he may have been the first one to start making chocolates. And Manhattan King Street, I believe.

Well, he started in first in Brooklyn across the river in DUMBO, right?

I don't I don't think that that had the heavy equipment. It wasn't

as big. Yeah, right. When he moved into Kenya, didn't you have like a little culture and all that stuff? Wasn't he doing stuff?

But I want to say that he would have been really one of the first people to manufacture chocolate in the confines in New York City in about 40 years. Yeah. The last big holdout was in the 1960s Who was it? Was company called Rockwood at their height there. are second to Hershey, like in the 1920s and 1930s. And they were there actually, there's a few buildings still standing. If you're cruising down the BQ II say from Williamsburg into Dumbo, and just as you're kind of in the area of the Navy Yard, if you look to your right, you'll see the former Rockwood factory, its department so

I take exception to the idea that anyone can cruise down to be QA. Okay, well, when you stopped in traffic on the V QE, yeah, yeah, I the BKV so much. There's one. There's one really nice thing about the big D travel and Bikila

you know I live in Sunnyside now. So a lot of times to get to lower Manhattan that's how I get there.

You ever go to colonials, which is near Sunnyside collegial brothers. I haven't actually you need to go to cuccio Brothers. Do you ever do you ever you your family? Do you? salt cod family at all?

You would think with my like Baltic, Eastern European. But now that was not something I discovered until I started cooking professionally,

that they have the best salt cod selection really, I've ever seen in the United States. I mean, other places you can go they have great salt cod selections, but around Christmas time. You go to Colucci O's. And they have like full sides of like various different kinds of cod salted down. They'll sell you a little piece but they really want to sell you the whole course freaking. Oh my god. So awesome. And you need to do everything you do the buck a lie. You do the brawn died. You do? Of course you know you do like salt fish dishes from the Caribbean, you do them all because you have so much salt cod, you know, I mean, it doesn't go bad. doesn't go bad. And then you know what the my thing with the salt cod is? Is that like, so? The family that my stepfather's family is Italian. I grew up with that. Right. And we grew up Christmas Christmas Eve you had the fishes right? And the BOK Allah was one of them. But that dish requires really thick, nice, hardcore, quality cod because you're you're eating it as big chunks. Right? Right. And then it's like, don't let it boil. Don't ruin the buckle, you're soaking for days. You know what I mean? But I really as when I cook at home, I like to buy the cheaper thinner stuff cuz you can use it the same day that you try to do it and like it's just much easier for a lot of like, you know, like, you know, small fish mashed into like, you know, yams and like Nami and whatever or like, you know, in dishes or like fritters Did you have any buckle ate those when you were down there? Down?

Nope. is disappointing on the local food from? Yeah, I know. GOOD FRUIT. Yes, very good fruit. Good. Papaya. Good pineapple, great mango. Things like that late. Good. Good. Great. Papaya was great. Mango was great pineapples. Okay. I mean, good. But like I've had better but it was still very good compared to what we get here.

Well, I mean, like papayas in the United States are the worst fruits. Like, I don't understand why anyone uses papaya here. I don't understand why people sell it. I don't like, like, you know, I've had kids. I know what diapers are. Like, like, I don't need an American papaya in my life. Yeah, I just don't you know what I mean? Yeah. You know, in Colombia, obviously. They have that phrase. You know, no dark papaya. Right. Don't, don't give because they're papaya. I'm like, why would you say that? Like I'll give every papaya away. I'll give all away. And then you have their papaya and it's like, oh, this is good. This is good fruit.

This is good fruit. Yeah. Do you

like papaya mango?

But I do feel the same way. I even guavas that you get here typically are very disappointing as well.

The other thing about a guava. It's just one of those fruits that it should have more than one name. It's like It's like if you called an apple and a pear the same freakin thing. Sure. They're both you know, apples. No like yet like guavas. There's such a range in guavas. And yes, they're all mostly crappy here. Yeah. Same as soursop. Don't you wish soursop was better here?

flavor I love. I love that sounds so good. The puree

isn't? Oh, okay, then I've not had so one of the things that Michael does. I forgot. Is he is a brand ambassador. Is that true? It's true brand ambassador for a blur on now that John can say with some serious French accent Give me some more home. Oh, good. Yeah. So what's it like working for big puree?

It's, it's fun, actually. Because I think what's most interesting for me, especially in the context of all the time I'm spending in chocolate world where the future is a big topic of sustainability, all that stuff. Is seeing word we're borrowing as a company is taking that, you know, because if you think about it, it's kind of a messed up idea. We're buying fruit from the best place where it grows. We're buying mangoes from India. We're shipping it to France to process and then we're shipping it again somewhere else

but it's on a boat right? It's not that because on Both Sure, but they're thinking

about right. How do we fix that? How do we make that, you know, more sustainable for the future? And I think, do you get

to go to the harvest place? Did you get to go to Corolla or wherever we're in India they are.

I am hoping that as I spend more time with them, that's in the cards. Certainly next time I go to France because a lot of their stolen fruits come from locally in the southern Rhone Valley. Is that how they started? That's how they started. They sold produce at the orangey market outside of Paris,

man, I've been there. Yeah, yeah, I bought some bad truffles. They're not bad. But like, you know, cut rate truffles

are nice.

Yeah, anyway, good times.

Great times. You ever you like that market? You've gone there.

I've been there once. And it was you know, it's one of those things. It's like, so huge. Yeah. At least you've been to Keiji?

Yeah, well, he Oh, yeah. Yeah, whatever. seems more manageable. I don't know. It's the Stasi and I almost got killed there several times. It's the guys driving the little remember that says yeah, it was awesome, though. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you have to have situational awareness when you're there. Everyone's like, I need to see the tune auction where like, I don't care this let me see the whole damn thing. Yeah. You know, I mean, never seen so much Styrofoam in my life. True. Yeah. So much. Oh, did you go there when you were working at Bernie's house?

I actually went there. It was a project that they were they ran it for a few years, they would take a group of New York pastry chefs right, and just basically do a pop up in Japan for a week. So who did I go with? Bill Yosses? Oh, nice. Mark OMO from then at the monitor now at Gabriele crater Deb brassica to at the time was she's still at awkward VT maybe? Yeah, cool group of like four or five of us and we we basically did a pop up in a department store in Osaka for a week.

Oh my god. I was a it was a blast.

When they when when the Stasi and I did our pop up at the Park Hyatt. They were let's just say price insensitive to the ingredients. It was amazing.

And we didn't have to touch anything. I mean, they we assembled some things in front of people for show but

they made us crank the drinks out. Oh, yeah. Yeah, they

had I mean, it was like kind of nestled between the Cartier counter and the product counter. They had full cases. You know, it was a a company that runs like 20 pastry shops and all the various depot Chica throughout the country. They did all the prep, we sent them recipes. Everything was perfect, beautiful.

Nice. I need to go best as we need to go back. Anyway. Alright, so let me finish this question from Dale is about being the bar chocolates. Right now. First of all, you're being the bar program. Do you? Okay, maybe you just talk about that, like short history of being the bar like is chocolate alchemy still a good place to go for people to website? Or is there they've been surpassed like what's going on? Like? Why describe the movement of being the bar amongst smaller producers and individuals at home? Sure.

The way I usually like to explain it as if you were to go back 15 years ago, there were maybe half a dozen small scale chocolate makers in North America. You had your Amano? I would even say guitart is still kind of like Artisan industrial. Right? So

they're like the polar beverage of chocolate. Sure,

sure. So you had half a dozen small scale chocolate makers, really inspired by what Scharffenberger started in the 90s. Even though by that time they were already acquired by Hershey.

You know, I'm keen to Hershey. I did not know that. Yeah. Norton's nearly Hershey. Great, great, great uncle died. 1945 already sold the business don't have the money.

Go ahead. So yeah, around 2000 678 is when you started to have this real explosion in craft, being the bar artisan specialty chocolate, whatever you want to call it. And depending on who you ask today, in North America, there's probably five or 600 small chocolate makers.

What's small to you?

I mean, that's actually an interesting question. Because the the industry itself is trying to find what that means. I mean, off the top of my head, I started to think of, you know, three, four or five tonnes is still small a year. But even some of the bigger ones are exceeding that they're probably 1010 tonnes an over I mean, that that's really the sort of existential crisis of of what craft chocolate is defining itself is it's the approach doesn't have to be done by hand doesn't have to be ground in stone. Because a lot of these a lot of these smaller companies are scaling up and they're moving to ball mills and rolling refiners and things like that. So it's, they're interesting conversations happening and I think a lot of people have their own opinions of what what, what craft or artisan means. whereas, you know, we'd look at specialty coffee, we looked at craft brewing, they kind of have things defined. And chocolate doesn't quite have that. Yeah, it's an exciting time. It's still very exciting.

We do think that stuff should be defined to be do you care? Do you care more about the product? Or do you care about whether or not the you know, it's two stones rolling on a third stone?

I mean, I personally don't. But it's helpful for consumers. Because a lot of consumers still don't really understand that that segment, they don't understand why that chocolate bar costs $10 or $15. So on the educational side, I think it helps to define, you know, what, what, what this all means, because not all of it is great, either. So if somebody you know, shells out 10 bucks for a chocolate bar, and they have a bad time, they're not going to, they're not going to go back.

Right. So I know that Shakarez back in the day when he opened not the original one in DUMBO, but the larger factory in downtown was that Tribeca, or like, yeah, like

King Street. Yeah, whatever else around there. Yeah.

He said that one of the issues was it was very hard for anyone at his scale, right. And he was one of the few people doing it at the time to get a hold of good raw material. Is that changed?

That has totally changed. So how's it work now? So I mean, the basic unit of measurement for cacao was still the 60 kilo bag. So for your home enthusiast, that's not super convenient. And it's just like hydrocolloids, right. Remember, back in the day, the only way you could get your hands on that stuff is you had to, you know, request free samples. Yeah. And you use a free sample for years. And then but then they got wise to it right. And they stopped. So it took, you know, the distributors and the suppliers. Okay, we're gonna buy that 50 gallon drum and break it down into one pound bags for you. That's starting to happen with cacao. So, you know, I say with a few $100 investment, you can get a tabletop melon chair, right? And you have access to the same cocoa beans that all these other craft chocolate makers are using.

What about the access of those makers versus like a Valrhona?

I mean, if I were gonna is in country, typically, in their working, you know, a lot of their, their growers are exclusive to them. You know, so that's, that's just decades of relationships. But you know, if you if you were to go to a specialty chocolate shore store, and you see, you know, all the all the origins, they're using Tanzania, Uganda, you name it, chances are, you can get those beans, either through chocolate alchemy, as you mentioned, or another

that's their who I learned this stuff from? He's on there. He's

He's the godfather of this movement. Really? John, John Nancy,

how much did that because they were like, by this by this white grinder from India, that's not meant to do chocolate because it looks like a chocolate grinder and then do it. Use it as your conscious well do the whole thing. This was like in 2010, something like this 2822. And when we had the French culinary bought like three of them because we started doing you know, like just messing around with it. And to me that site was a revelation. I don't know, have they? has had they helped even the larger scale people get access to these beans because brought more attention to it? Is it kind of like home brewing? Like you're saying where actual home brewers helped the craft brewing industry or No,

I think so. I think he helped open it up. You know, there's another another source that I use based in Portland, Oregon Meridian cacao. So they're importers. So you can buy full bags, you can buy a pallet from them, but you can also buy 510 pound bags from them as well. So So that's starting to open up

and for for home people is a is a is the wet grinder still the way to go?

It's a great start. And I'm actually my one of my missions is to get them into more like restaurant kitchens. Wet grinders. Yeah, I mean, you're not going to make all of your own chocolate, although I think you should play around with it. Even if you're using nibs from your dry storage. Play around with it so you get an appreciation for it. But you could make something special for one dish. You can make your own gender you can make your own net pastes.

i Yeah, no, I love the wet grinder.

I love it so and the mustard and the right John's are Yeah, they're cheaper than a variable speed blender

right so you can get them for like 300 bucks. Yeah, yeah. If you wait around you can get them for even do you care whether it's straight sonar and angle stone is do you care? And I haven't really

worked with the angled stones yet.

I only have straight stone. Yeah. So I'm used to. But they work. They just keep working. They're very simple belt driven machines. They just go I've never

had one. Okay, I've worn through maybe one in the last six years, but I've got half a dozen of them. I leave them running for three days. Yeah, I sleep fine at night. They're great.

Yeah. Yeah, the one thing we used to have to do, and we did shock, it was off on off on off on to get the moisture to leave in the right amount. But like, you know, and keep the temperature, right, you know, I mean,

I mean, as a conch, it's not very efficient. Right? So So you need heat, and you need airflow. So people will set up rigs, you know, I set up a little desk fan, which cools it down, unfortunately, but you know, you hit it with a heat gun periodically. I've also started to use a Thermomix.

Now Oh, my God, you're so fancy. So

as sort of like a conch when I've got, you know, a kilo or two,

do you like it as a conch? Is that a reason to own one? If you're gonna, I mean,

I mean, you can use it for so many things. Europeans love them so much. And you know, what's what what was surprising to me is when they finally brought them to North America, they targeted home cooks. And that pros, because that's

what it is in Europe. It's like all the chefs use it, but people have it at home. Sure. You know what I mean? And they're expensive there. But vitae preps are also expensive over there, like vitae prep costs, like what Thermomix costs,

in my experience. All the chefs in Europe pined for Vitamix, and everyone here was, you know, trying to get their European Thermomix to work on our Yeah. 110

Yeah, they're my anytime you're back when I was at the FCI. Anytime a European chef would come through, do you have the Thermomix? Well, no, no, we got stolen a year ago. And we didn't buy another one. Come on, man. Right. I mean,

yeah, I mean, those stone grinders are great. And what we're, what we've seen the last few years is all the people who started on those, you know, when they graduate up to the, you know, 5060 kilo, is okay, scaling up. It's very inefficient. So a lot of those early craft chocolate makers have now started to grow into you know, what some people feel is more industrial because it's metal. Right? There is a desert, there's this romance about stone.

Well, so the next level up of stone one that like the old like style, Melange, jurors aren't efficient, they're not very good.

I mean, compared to rural the refiners and ball mills and things like that are universals McIntyre Yeah, and certainly

be like that. Do Sean work grinding my own grinding my chocolate? Is that still a slang word in French? John? I don't know. You know, that piece on glass with a chocolate grinder? Oh, yes. And it's a it's a it's a self pleasuring reference in French? Yeah. I guess I've never

never caught on to that. Well, he, you know, he

was like that Duchamp. You know, there was. Alright, so, now that we've discussed, by the way, do you still use for grinding the nibs? Do you still use like, we use like a champion? Is that still what people use? Or what do they use anything?

I personally, I thought that was like a completely unnecessary step.

Just the throw it in and just let it go. Or yeah, I

mean, you add them you know, slowly. I mean, I also have larger scale equipment. So I do have a like a hammer mill, right and produce liquor with but even just whizzing it up in a in a bromo coup, right. Well save you an hour and you can add it

faster, or Cuisinart thought this was a can't afford replicas. Okay.

I also use like dehydrators. Right as warmers. So warm bowl, warm stones, warm nibs, warm sugar, it makes everything go faster.

What's the do? Do you bother pre dusting your sugar in a blender? Or no?

I typically don't. I

typically do. Where are you on less than

I'm, I'm pro lecithin if it's needed, right. You know, fluidity and chocolate I think is really important.

And we're gonna apparently we're gonna talk about that in a minute. What were you on? For a while, there's a whole thing of like, I'm not gonna add not gonna add cocoa butter to it. I won't. What do you think?

Again, my preference is for that? I guess. I guess I would call it a French style, a little bit of extra cocoa butter. lecithin when it's needed. To me, it's like, I'm not the spirits guy that you are. But you know, an ice cube. And a glass of whiskey is going to make it open up, right?

Yeah, maybe it's too hot anyway. Sure. Yeah.

And in the same sense, you know, some people feel like I'm if I'm adding cocoa butter. I'm diluting the intensity of the flavor. My opinion is if it makes it more fluid, it coats your palate and the evolution the length of the flavor is increased, you get more flavor release over time. So you actually taste more of it rather than just this kind of muddy chocolate

sitting on your tongue. And most Cocoa butter is pretty bad. Do you use deodorised?

Sometimes I use deodorise. I have a cocoa butter press two.

So that's right. I saw it. It's awesome. So then you can use your own cocoa butter and then use it and

that's also an argument against adding cocoa butter because then for most people that means it's no longer single origin. But if you can press the beans that you're making chocolate from,

do the hand oil presses the little ones that for a couple 100 bucks for nuts, do they work for pressing?

I mean, people say they work I've never used them. You know, I've always wanted to can imagine what kind of yield you get, you know, says because my cocoa butter press, it's, you know, it takes 90 minutes at 75 tons of pressure to get, you know, 90% of the cocoa butter out of that liquor. So I I'm a firm believer and you don't get what you don't pay for. Yeah, all right. So I am skeptical, but I've

never used them. What about roasting? What's the what's the way to roast now?

I mean, when I've had a chance to play on, like adapted Coffee Roasters love it. That was also something I picked up during the pandemic was roasting coffee at home and little b mores. But I have a drum roaster in the lab. So you know, dynamic roasting is always the way to go. So you can make it work in an oven if you have