Cooking Issues Transcript

Episode 50: Nathan Myhrvold

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welcome to cooking issues I'm here in the studio today with nastasha the hammer Lopez and calling all of your questions today to 718-497-2128 that's 718-497-2128 because today is a very special day we have as our call and guest Nathan myhrvold the brain behind the modernist cuisine megabook Extravaganza that came out this year at the end of end of last meeting you there

how great very good to have you want to listen in case there's like a person out there who's been living under a rock or something this book basically Nathan was a ways ahead of like a GUI design at at Microsoft what was your daily yep okay so then I decided that I didn't necessarily want to be in Microsoft anymore although apparently you're still buddies with that whole crew right

starting a Bill Gates of the great friend of mine and I still work with him on a ride anything right now for 11 years so funny now not mine just be honest other good stuff came out before eleven years ago number of years ago or many years ago as far as I know Nathan started traveling the world going to the finest restaurants in the world was also an avid cook and then amassed what by all accounts that I've never actually been to the one that your house is possibly the greatest Kitchen in the world then after awhile realize there was no real kind of large-scale encyclopedic book about how to cook using all kinds of new techniques and Technologies and so decided to write a book on the subject and listed some of the greatest Minds in this field to help and then three or four years later came out with the book

books that we all know is modernist cuisine book series is accurate or no

yeah that's you got it Dave all right call we already have a call Nathan so I'm going to I'm going to go right to it caller ID on the air

hi babe how are you doing well

my name is Alvin actually how I met Nathan at the beginning of the month at dinner at the lab how are you taping

great how you doing good good I had a question for you guys I'm getting ready to buy a liquid nitrogen bar and I am cooking issues I live in an apartment so I don't know that's the 160 super ninja Suarez going to work for me a lot of what city do you live in and what city do you live in what floor do you live on

third floor what city are so what do you think Nathan

as long as you don't spill it it's okay you have to make sure you having a very well ventilated room because of it fell over you want to make sure that the nitrogen doesn't take too much oxygen this place too much oxygen from the room and by the way it's pronounced Jew or was the guy who invented it's the same Scottish name is due or Christian Prep stop the same family as long as the nitrogen is going to keep the heat loss is about the same but the volume is different

tell if you have a 20 l or you're going to wind up having the the Nigerian last a lot longer than a 10 liter yeah and the reason I asked you what city you're in is if you're in New York it's a pain to go get because you have to go to one of the welding shops in the city it's not advisable to keep it in the passenger area of a car if you live out in Houston and you have a car or better yet even a truck that you can drive out to the place and pick up refills it's a lot less of a hassle when you agree Nathan

yes I would but if you drive with liquid nitrogen in the car which I certainly been known to do just grab all the windows rolled down

okay yeah the reason for this is liquid nitrogen

when it boils is it introduced nitrogen gas it creates a lot of it it goes up by Factory roof 500 something like that so you can easily displace all of the volume of the air in your car and then you pass out and you could even die and people have died from spilling a liquid nitrogen Dewar in a small enclosed space and a car is by definition of small enclosed space in an accident could do it even if I have those looking at you in the trunk I still have the windows rolled down other pickup truck has is obviously an even better way to go ideal just bungee it down properly so it doesn't rattle about

is there a imagine to have your one with would be better in a larger is Nathan said the Lark the larger they are the better they are for storage I'd be wary of buying used used doors because a lot of times there insulation can be can be bad you know what if you're willing to take the risk and they're good then they're good you know it's just a matter of can you afford to take the risk on a on a Tuesday or you rolling a dice

they can if they're if you drop them for example you can crack the inside just enough for there to be a vacuum leak and so you wind up having no an inflation value can you end up finding out overnight when you have no nitrogen when you need it the next day at a demo

oh yeah well yeah I mean that's another nightmare about renting small-format Dewar's from my welding shops that give you the crappiest when they have in a few if you've been beaten about if you going to do it on a regular basis I recommend buying a new one in and be nice to it by another caller on the air thank you so much for your question by the way call or you're on the air so I was so wrapped up cook books lately and ask the Blumenthal he talks about using star anise with onions to increase media flavors and he mentions that it is a combination of anisole to hide an Espeon from the Ana's

which combines with sulfur and produces some sort of the sulfur heterocyclic I've tried it definitely works beautiful but I'm so curious about the mechanism and whether there are other ways to apply us stuff I have no no

well I have to pass to let you know that flavor chemistry is extremely complicated and where is you can find things like what you're describing there were some of the sulfur compounds from from onions will combine with another flavor to make something needy it gets hard to generalize if you took a different spice and star and it probably will not work because it won't have it via same flavor compounds and I know he is working with our work with the guys at firmenich and a number of other places and they don't have some wacky stuff a lot of the chemical a lot of the chemical Arguments for what's going on in cooking in terms of the flavor chemistry I find them extremely interesting to read but not necessarily as valuable when when you're cooking I made me he is working on it on a large format book on this on this kind of subject right now I mean even though I have the cookbook I guess it's obvious

haven't been all the way to it but I investigate that one further and maybe get on the horn with Mickey about it cuz I think he's investigated that any more thoughts on that when they think they here we have another caller on the air

flavor chemistry is extremely complicated and you can get some very specific things that will occur with a very specific flavor that you just don't get out otherwise it is an example of how many wines have a vanilla flavor in them that comes from old because in fact o cuz. Compounds very similar to vanilla and vanilla. Idiosyncradeck to Oak it doesn't mean all wood does or doesn't mean that you can generalize that other flavors unfortunately like ice cream out of the Oak from Scotch after laughing pretty good and how cool I know you have like it easy for you to do you know Nathan obviously what I do I combine the oak with the cream cold so that I can do try some of the tenants and then either heat or don't do it Sam Mason Style with uncooked eggs if you're not worried about the pasteurization but listen I promise to look into this and onion thing I'm having to stop to write down the question now and I promise to look into

Moore okay call rotovac whiskey to take the alcohol out which sounds like about the stupidest thing you could possibly do take perfectly good scotch whiskey and Ruby alcohol but my God the flavors that are present that are masked by the alcohol to the alcohol is so Raw on your tongue and palate that you don't taste the subtly it's just amazing and Nathan are both take rotovap fans I like I like both sides of the of the still on this one but next time you do it just makes them take it down a little further you know what I mean so you don't have as much mass and I don't actually add any milk to it I just used us trade cream because you're adding so much liquid in the form of oat but if it's too damn good ice cream

that sounds great but Jack is it true we have another caller caller you are on the air

hello I'm calling from South Carolina come to the large I'm curious what a bread sits in modernist cuisine everybody home

but naked as long as long as you answer this Nathan I have a very similar question online so I'll just add those to it and you can take care of all these at once this is from Ian Benz and you basically saying would you done anything differently if you were going to start over and what's your next project any chance for a pastry book and someone asked the same thing about cocktail so you might as well hit all of those hit all of those that want coffee what's next I would say What were what were currently doing is still going on with this book I mean I'm right in the middle of an interview for a radio show here we did a lunch for people yesterday we did a dinner last week so the team is all still working very hard primarily promoting the existing book from experimentation that we could use in the future for a future book but mostly work in existing book the first of the year

we didn't cover pastry baking and dessert it's a world unto itself we certainly are thinking about doing that as the Nextbook we might instead of however do a next smaller book before we do that one cuz pastry baking dessert would be another 2 or 3 years log for sure

in terms of the status of cocktails and other things that people have suggested something to do plus there's a million different threads we could pick up and we're going to look at all of them right now we have not made a decision

but in terms of status of red and modernist cuisine they pretty much not only rarely have a red service or anything like bread or have done something really modernist with red I can only think of a couple of examples Ferran Adria cuz she calls the airbag at which looks like a perfectly little to sell miniature but yet but in fact is completely hollow inside and so that's kind of a cool dish Jose Andres asserts that at Bazaar where they make what they call a Philly cheese steak out of it by putting a very very thin slice of beef on and they inject a cheese foam inside of it it's really good but other than that it's hard for me to think of any other things where Modern is she

has tried to reinvent Bread Dave can you think of any not not really I mean it's red is used as a component by many many shares but they haven't actually reinvented the the bread itself it's just their you know you'll get you know times for the earlier the paintings then architecture of modernism just not reached yet

well I think that's that's certainly a possibility but pastry and baking I have their own sets of traditions of them things that they follow some aspects of base trim baking already follow the same approach that modernist Chef to take to always weighing things out exactly and we always have a little white powder and soda pastry chef add baking soda by taste or by guess and by gosh you you have to weigh it out if you want to consistent results so but I don't think I have not seen anything that I really could call modernist baking or bread Modern Pastry yes pastry chef have been at the Forefront of modernist cuisine at many modernist restaurants the pastry chef is actually out in front of

the Savory guys many other restaurants that are still traditional or new vallen character it's the pastry chef is dragging the rest of the kitchen in the 20th century or 21st century there like Johnny iuzzini Jean-Georges any one of those Michael Estrada

a blue further on these questions cuz we have that again for me and vans riding in on similar questions knowing what you know now about the whole process of realizing the book would you have done anything differently if you were to start it over

you know we obviously we learned lots of things while doing the book and so some of those things you'd like to have learned a little bit sooner of course but really there wasn't an 800 but I don't really have a lot of regrets on it now well well as as he also said he hopes you're proud of the accomplishments because he finds it really incredible as as do I think all of us but he makes a point here and was asking the questions he says he's sure you cannot be completely satisfied especially Sage whatever we can you take me to Discovery seems to come to light that changes when ideas of what can be done but I think it's actually

the opposite because the most challenging thing I had to have been for this book is because new things are happening is to make a statement it's going to survive the test of time and you still deal with newness and I think that's kind of the whole that's the whole thing behind the book that's the whole kind of interesting thing about it right as we were finishing the book up to send to the printer everyday I think of one of the thing we hadn't included and I'd I call Max at them like God we don't have a recipe for skier

what will the section in the book the covers various fresh cheeses and fermented milk products we had yogurt yogurt it's got ran a tenant like farmer's cheese is but also is formatted like yogurt since we finally shipped the book off more things like that are piled up such a huge subject the other day I was someplace and I I had some posole and I kept myself that's my God we never covered Harmony of using lime to treat corn which is intrinsic to not only hominy but to making the masa harina for making tortillas like God dammit

adorable forgive me for free. Money is kind of lucky that is such a huge subject that you know you guys can't tackle all of it or what would we do for a living

how'd your blog very carefully to make sure that we we've covered all the things you would put out there not as much as hell so we decided not to cover cocktail for example which is a big part of your blog and in your Cuisine but what we tried to stay on top of new development but we knew for a fact new stuff would happen the minute we were done and that's okay foundation in the base that we've communicated to everyone and if you waited for it to be complete you'd never do it at all

call her you're on the air hey this is Andrew from Minneapolis how do you have a question for Nathan I'm just wondering which one of the biggest things you and your team learn and making the book about food and cooking that really made you stand back and say wow like this is a crazy thing that's happening or maybe one of the things that you felt like you learned about food and that your research team wearing that you felt like you were the first ones learning this and you were the first ones kind of making this almost done pioneering aspect of what you were cuddling with

well I'll quickly touch on a couple of those I mean one which is very controversial with traditional shaft is that he is a fraud me the traditional cooking technique or you cook meat in fat or oil at low temperature for long. Of time a duck confit is a course the classic example or we can meet you after I was trying to figure out how cooking the meat in oil or fat could possibly change to meet them to penetrate to me but every traditional chef ever happens so we did a bunch of blind taste test duck leg confit we also did the pork shoulder

and we tried it steam sous vide and traditional methods of friendship this they get almost angry if you haven't tried an interesting question of attitude there if in fact you try the experiment and you can't tell the difference in a blind test that tells you something very profound but a lot of folks think that there's an ideology of foods that you should believe this stuff without testing it like that what causes stall in barbecue this is when you cook a brisket or a big piece of meat the people of notice for many years that the temperature will rise for a while then it will flatten out and Spa

not increase for many hours before it increases again and there's tons of theories on the internet about why that occurs and we finally found out how quiet the reasoning for the meat is drying out and the temperature is held down by the fact that the evaporation takes a tremendous amount of energy is the cure for the stall is the slather more sauce on their meat which of course only makes it wetter which younger

yeah those combining those two I mean traditional coffee is a good technique for producing that texture on a duck if you don't have access to a vacuum bag or controlled-atmosphere cookie

actually is that what you What mattered was the temperature in the time so if you cooked it at different temperatures we can totally tell the difference see or or ATC you could totally tell those but we couldn't tell whether we steamed in the combi oven or at evap or we or or or or your right Dave's at the original point of confit was really a sort of approach to sous-vide or you could cook it at a low temperature for long. Of time and exclude are from it for storage and that's why does a similarity

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all right welcome back cooking issues first time you had Chuck Berry calling your questions to for Nathan myhrvold to 718-497-2128 and 718-497-2128 next caller gets a modernist cuisine signed apron sign by Nathan Kress and Max we got nice nice show me follow up again you mention little bit about cocktails but Kevin Lu Road in and said he has a question for you cocktail sign to the branch of modernist cuisine that you didn't touch upon we talked about that do you consider Mixology cooking and how far do you think she has some bartender should be able to take their creations and I do you have any insights about Cocktail Science that you can share with us

so how I'm not an expert on modernist cocktails I certainly have had them in many of them drawn the same kinds of Science and principles but I wouldn't call myself an expert at Dave you're much more into this than I am yes I do consider it cooking in in a ride to senses but it's not always practice that way most cocktails are mixed by a bartender most traditional cocktails and they generally don't have the manpower to do anything very elaborate they're also the server it Ganso and you typically have a fairly small number of bartenders with a fairly large number of people you you couldn't actually serve dinner if you had the same number as bartenders to customers erase it wouldn't work

crank site I guess I think I qualify infect me that's one of the reasons I became interested in it was because I thought there was a niche that wasn't being adequately explored you know and that's kind of one of the reasons I got into plus I like cocktails you know so it's kind of a win-win situation real quick or waiting for the next caller to come in Collin long time listener writer in says it cocktail Geeks 11 the Ramos gin fizz bartenders hate in their gut Surrey popularizing a drink involving a 12-minute check although I don't really take 12 minutes to shake and by the way bartenders also I was at the last if they tales of the cocktail in July and bartenders were ordering this drink by The Bushel And basically, I want to know is there a better way so Ramos gin fizz is actually a drink that I don't much like it's got like eggs dairy Jen orange flower water and some other stuff and shake the heck out of it and gets his creamy to my taste under alcoholic kind of thing that apparently is becoming more more popular I'm not a huge

are water person anyway the secret is to shake the ingredients dry without ice first to start the emulsification process that's the old school way to do it if I were you I would invest in some in a mix of xanthan gum arabic and keep it at your bar at all times a t i c gums makes a good one called Salad eyes or 3:01 or 3:10 or something like that and that it's basically you can use it to make butter syrup sore oil syrup or you can use it to stabilize a Ramos or anyting else and it's just a handy stuff to have around Gum arabic acts as an emulsifier in a body agent in the San Tan axis stabilizer so I would get ahold of that any any any other ideas on that to Nathan

you made the point I would make him and the other thing is make sure that you've got a good mixer homogenizer for Rob for making Emulsion made it has a bunch of nifty emulsify you know different homogenizers you know he has the rotor stator which actually becoming more popular now our buddy Tony Tony Tony garro from England's got one in his bar and you know we have one you have want a bunch of people have now but Nathan has the only person that I know who also has a high pressure homogenizer he can do some serious business with that right

yep. It's fantastic.

It uses very very high pressure 30000 pounds per square inch to create incredibly fine emotions so typically get you down around 5:10 to 15 Micron droplet size and you can probably get it down to five with the high-pressure we can reach him to get it down to 1 Micron blender he doesn't mean a crappy blender that you buy a Costco he means a vital prep

write a proper Glen tackore one of the other really high-end ones there really is a difference but I wrote a satyr homogenizer which is a piece of laboratory equipment is a vastly better job even when I depress oh yeah yeah I think about it is once you get a below about first of all you know that they're the particle size that you can get out of out of a blender has to do with the number of things how efficiently the blades can get to the the particles how much mixing there's eccentric cetera how the blade size in relation to the tanks at all that but at the at the end you're limited by the kind of the tip speed how fast the tip is hitting your products in a rotor stator is a realtor that's rotating and a state or the standing still so in effect its equivalent of in one you're you're just slicing knife through the air and the other you put someone's head against the wall and then slicing knife through it it's that kind of a of an addition of energy that you're talkin about which is the reason that I can get to such

smaller sizes right Nathan with you agree with it with that description

is trying to slice the blade faster than the fluid is moving out of sheer depends basically on the relative speed of the liquid in the blades of course the liquid is moving and it can we push out of the way for a rotor stator just forces all of the liquid in a very very fine Gap hundredths of an inch or 1 sided station on the other side of the super high speed and I couldn't just vastly more sheer right now the other interesting thing about blending is that your tongue okay in terms of texture your tongue can't really perceive texture below about 20 microns there about that order magnitude in that range 20 microns in size which is why liquid nitrogen ice cream isn't perceptively better perceptibly better than ice cream made in a a high-end commercial ice cream machine even though it's ice crystals are theoretically smaller right because you're

can perceive it interesting is it the rotor stator has two possibilities for use one you need a small particle size like for instance like I did the same with oysters and you might choke out the oysters if you have large particles to you want a very stable Emulsion so you want the smaller and smaller things if you're making milk switch is a big section in other milks like duck fat milk it would just take section in modernist cuisine or but they're apparently and I haven't done a study of myself but Nathan I'm sure has there are taste perception differences that depend upon the size of the drop what's below below your threshold for perceiving textures that true you'd say or no

oh yeah I think that is true the other one though is the is HauteLook see Optical properties are please juice actually been emulsified it with oil in a bunch of different ways and the smaller the droplets when put through the high pressure and wind up with something which is the tiniest amount of tint to cream whereas if you risk it by hand you can still make an emotion but the emotion is very very green and the reason is that the droplets of oil in the emotion they scatter light the smaller you make them the more of them there are and so the more you get

however you on pickle technology Nathan

do pickles in the book

question from Red then well I've made good half sours at home with salt and water so talking up for men to take on my quick pickle in small amounts of Alum I don't use Alan but I'm going to have it but I use it there not what I would find a New York with adding calcium hydroxide to a half-sour Brian keep them bright green and help them prevent them from getting soft I've done some stuff with this I would say I wouldn't add it to the Brian talk about pickling lime I would I would so often before you brine them that was stopped from getting soft I don't think it's going to keep them bright green did you ever do any research with cooking in Copper to keep things be green or or any of these things with Pickles

no we didn't because we didn't cover pickle that extensively but obviously copper does oxidized green butt and as a result there are blue dyes or copper base and so forth but they are toxic and so I wouldn't do that to me this morning to this that came in this morning you know they used to boil apparently that cuz you know you cannot boil that you can you can high temp simmer for brief. Of time below the softening point and apparently that was another way to increase firmness although I don't know why I guess to to get the pectin methyl esterase to help reinforce the structures below the point at which they take them below the point which you break it down I don't know but if they apparently they used to do it in Copper and that would lead to a bright green color because you were placing

the guy on the floor. Religious table and break me but I just I wouldn't do it I don't think the greens that important to you

I agree I mean I don't think it's as big a flavor took preventing oxidation or changes in color in something like an apple I think is vital because the flavor is also changing at the same time as a direct result of what's going on but I don't think the same is true with the with pickles and and them turning a shade of green I think it's going to affect the flavor is just not my that's not my feeling

well I think you're probably right and of course if you do want to die something green or safe ways to die green and I would rather use a safe food coloring then some kind of thing I'm leaking out of my pocket right right on safety we have a question and you ask you a couple questions here will take this one right now Mike calls in with a plastic wrap and he says I can't recall us discussing plastic wrap on the air before I made something I've dealt with a little bit on the blog but what are the heat effects on plastic wrap specifically the consumer plastic wrap on my fine in the supermarket or maybe the Food Service ones I can find a restaurant supply what's a safe temperature range to use in poaching an emerging paths in a galatine for instance and what should what should I worry about what's going to lead him into the food I was actually a home one is probably going to end up their crap year because they're smaller and they're painted deal with butt and most food service rap now is is polyethylene like to home ones but I would stay away from PVC wraps obviously

but I do find you do find PVC wraps in restaurant supply places you find it at Costco in in big any of the really big containers of the plastic wrap are usually PVC but I just rather not have in the kitchen because I don't want to have to remember which plastic wrap should be hot and which plastic wrap should not be hot remember remember my head looking for the blade on a box of the Box I've always seen it labeled true that the polyethylene ones have a thing if they have a proprietary I'm not sure that saran wrap says it's polyethylene cuz it's this proprietary brand name

it is safe with plastic wraps is polyethylene is great because it's supposed to not have any plasticizers are going to lead you into your food however they are made with solvents and if they're not allowed to flash off properly when they're coming off the rolls at the Mill they can have some solvent Aroma left to them and it's miraculous to me if you want a plastic wrap and smell it how many of them have a smell and you notice that to Nathan I mean it's just like you by the school it happens a lot because we have a bunch of different plastic wraps lying around and you can just kind of run around the school and smell them but I think the biggest problem is fat related things if there's anything in the plastic solvents or whatnot they tend to be more lipophilic then a hydrophilic and so this is why if you have a bad plastic wrap and you go to a cheese shop and they wrapped cheese in it the cheese

picks up his horrible around this from the plastic that basically never come out in the cheese is ruined from an organoleptic standpoint not necessarily from a safety standpoint that said I use polyethylene all the time all the way up to me I don't do much protein cooking above 62 or so except for coffee which I like a traditional temperatures what about you Nathan you have any upper limits if you take the polyethylene to

normally the upper limit is Forgiven for on you with the facts and stuff gets really soft wheel sous-vide bags are usually multi-layered they usually have nylon as one of their lairs and they're good for much higher temperatures and they're also safe and tested at much higher temperatures Ziploc bag or a plastic wrap I would tend to use at 60 C or below and hotter to use those that stuff for those that are ways to do it I mean I do we do chicken go we do chicken galantines at like 64 and plastic wrap and they're fine you know but that's basically the highest the highest it will it will it will go up and also for my you want to take a non and non technical question you want to take a dinner etiquette and marriage question we have from Mike that the

we can both weigh in on here okay so my question is on dinner parties when having guests over for a dinner party 8 people are less would you serve food with a play the presentation family-style table or Buffet here's his back with his wife and he are trying to entertain a smaller groups vs. going out to large Gatherings cuz it better quality conversation close friends Etc and Mike loves to cook sweet Texas on Happily his wife is a wonderful person he says he's making this T's wife is wonderfully not say anything negative about her but a fairly picky but apparently picky eater mainly texture over taste but that's for another day she never makes a fuss over and has never gone hungry when we were out but he's worried about if you place his food he wants to do plate of food because he wants to challenge himself and because he thinks he'd like to think through the menu for the night and he thinks he likes to think about the way everything's going to show up on a plate she doesn't want play did you want the family style because going to allow her to discreetly choose what to eat and what not to eat and not fear and also to control portion size and not feel left out not feel

like she's being served something you're not eating it and feel bad so what do you think help help help my Gout hear something that will upset their stuff that's probably not a good idea just in general in life the reason to do plated dishes is because you give the control allows you to do fancy or more interesting things in general you almost anything you played up you could put onto a platter but then it's harder to transfer and it doesn't look as nice actually is going to be

apart from a very few exceptions I think the food's going to be fine either way so I would say try to strike a compromise with your wife and find some you also can do family style for some things and not for others you know you can have your entree some restaurants do that you know the house typically with fake is individual and the side dishes are all done family style only with those things on the plated stuff and have them come out early in the meal when she's already which is which is not full yet and then she can scale back her portion sizes later in the mail when you go family style right when that make sense

make sense to me I mean for me I get viciously viciously angry if I plate something and I'm not stalking plated like I'm talking sandwiches anytime you construct a food and then you watch someone pick it apart in front of you I get viciously angry even and I shouldn't say this on the air because people do it all the time but like I like even when chefs do it when I'm when I see someone do it to someone else just do what I'm like look at least taste it the way that they presented it cuz that's the way it was intended and and then pick it up pick it apart and a sandwich doesn't taste the same if it's horribly mangled and then rearranged is not intended to be eating that way you know what I mean

yep meaning does not make you kind of irritated sometimes Nathan I mean if you actually hate something or you're allergic fine you know what I mean but you're still not there to tell the kitchen that beforehand right this way they can make adjustments to the sandwich over to the plate search that it's still something that they're proud of here's my problem with it my problem with it is that you mangle somebody's plating or somebody is dish right and then you judge them based on your mangled version of their dish without giving them the opportunity to make the dish such that you would like it given your issues with the food right me does that make sense or no

yeah I think it does make sense there's a

there's a lot of

this is what we said for having the chef I'll be allowed to make it the best possible way and anyone who's cooking for other people wants to please those people and so it is always a little disappointing if you're not given that opportunity to be fair there are some people who for whatever reason view of oppositely and they sell I don't want to bother the chef by telling him that I don't like pickles on my sandwich or or some of the things that they feel us being too picky and say they don't say it up front and then they try to pick it out afterwards but I agree in general you should be upfront with what your your request to someone be allergic to something that's a totally different issue although if you're really allergic to it it's too late to pick us up

set up your kung pao chicken it's too late you're screwed yeah I have to take a break but put pickles on something it's not just because I like pickles but probably because that dish desperately needs the acidity from the pickle you know what I mean so you remove that pickle and you now you've now you've unbalanced the whole thing if you don't enjoy it and I feel bad that's where it is basically if you don't enjoy it I feel bad that's where that's what it comes down to our listen to the next caller and we're going to go take one more break the next caller is going to get that apron +718-497-212-8718 for 97212 a cooking issues

what was that song anyway

why doesn't the Avalanche not the first time we had a song I have no idea what it is anyway welcome back to 497 to 128 questions for Nathan myhrvold at 718-472-1281 in from Josh in Antigua says hello he was been cooking Dave Chang's a 5-minute 10-second eggs and eating them with everything lately he notices sometimes it's harder to peel them without a blithering in the white of the egg is this due to something in my procedure I bring eggs to room temperature before I boil them let them sit in warm but let him sit in warm water after boiling for 4 minutes and 50 seconds he thinks 5:10 to set he places the eggs in an ice bath until they're cool enough to handle after wrapping a spoon against the show until the shatter into small pieces and then peel the eggs in the ice bath lights come up with Poseidon me blah blah blah. You know I'm saying sometimes it comes out with no problem X rip ciega Park please explain what's going on I have my feelings on it Nathan you have any feelings on that one

the texture bag is very critically dependent on the temperature which is cooked and this is the first question I would have is how consistent is it if your boy if you're boiling and and timing it exactly that's probably okay unless you're very in the number of eggs are the size of the pot or how crowded they are because that can make a difference if it's if it was the water on the egg is little cooler because you put too many eggs in you're going to wind up with it left cooked which means it's much easier to rip it the other possibility is that it has been established of the age of the egg makes a difference that very fresh vs. older eggs will have a different texture could be exactly what's going on I mean Chang's I think argument there is rapidly boiling large pots and you know a quantity of eggs it's not going to perceptively

perceptibly you know lower the temperature of the water that it's going to be able to recover quickly enough there's not going to make that much of a difference he always uses the same type of same size rather vague and always starting at the same initial temperature which as Nathan said should prove fairly accurate there's some studies that show that eggs boiled at quickly at high temperature resin ramped up from cold are easier to show than ones that are ramped up from cold and then and then she'll Nathan and I both know that the exact opposite is true of low temperature eggs once they're cooked in the 62 63 64 Celsius range because they are the thin white just never sets up and acts as a release agent there's nothing easier in the world and breaking out an egg has been cooked at that 62 degrees Celsius but the pH Rises the egg white becomes more alkaline

and as it becomes more alkaline and this is according to egg Science and Technology by William stadelman you know and others as the pH Rises the eggs become easier to Shell because the proteins in the thin white don't adhere as strongly to the to the membrane and this is a big deal in a processing technology because people produce for a living are shelled eggs and the value goes down dramatically so people try to figure out a way to not have to store eggs boil them quickly and then rip the shells off of them and so what they do is they actually alkalize the eggs stored them above sodium hydroxide bath not in it but above it and that what increases the pH more rapidly than aging and McGee actually recommend putting a pinch of baking soda into your water although I've never tried it to try and alkalis it more and make them easier to two shelf and another reason to try and take a fresh egg and alkalis it so it can peel easily is because

even though it becomes easier to peel the the taste of eggs in the panel's I've read on in this up technical studies the taste of ink does deteriorate over time even though the peel ability goes up a caller on the air if you really want to make it easier to peel your eggs run a blowtorch very lightly over the egg before peeling it helps degrade that the shell and it's much easier it also works to roll the egg and liquid nitrogen will make the show more brittle cuisine

hi my name is man I'm calling from Chicago and I've been playing around with a little bit of baking soda and Chardonnay rice to make it for us to give me some suggestions are doing a sorbet that has say something on top of it so don't hang up when you're done we'll get you back on the air and we'll figure out how to mail the same to you because you were hitting the next color so he donated it to the show for you to have Nathan you have any ideas I wouldn't use baking soda by the way I mean you need an acid plus a base I wouldn't use it but him and Nathan go ahead

the problem with having acid base reaction to make it effervescent you're going to get some taste out of it all right that's okay you and baking powder biscuits have a taste that is characteristic that way unclear whether it's going to be okay in your Chardonnay but no preference the only other way to make something effervescent is 2 foot in killing like pop rocks that already is at the vessel itself and is stored effervescent I think a better way to go and you can buy unflavored copper I have to be fair Nathan Pop Rocks isn't the same feeling as like effervescence in a in a in a drink

Chardonnay and putting a Seltzer bottle and if you feel too much better reason that soft drinks and champagne or effervescent Italy have carbon dioxide gas dissolved in it and carbon dioxide happens to be a gas that is a very readily dissolve in a cold liquid and a Seltzer bottle is exactly how you do that so I would say look if you really want to have effervescent Chardonnay to make sure the photo champagne it's just a carbonated

the simplest way to are some other approaches you can do if you put a tiny bit of dry ice in the Bible and seal it up it'll also be careful you don't blow your bottle up Google image dry ice soda bottle to see people's eyes when they when they don't do it properly because the bottle will blow was I'm trying to do it for dessert when it's a sorbet like it's a Chardonnay sorbet and maybe there's some kind of chemical on top in the mouth or as you put it together it's it's it's almost effervescent in your mouth as if the reaction is going on in your mouth and you think that was at work but it will have its own fur texture and taste characteristics

you can see if you've made your survey you ought to be able to carbonate it

is it stopped because that they carbonation only works in the liquid phase so it's a question of how much liquid phase but it is sorbet in a survey machine or a taco or something else so it's in its state that semi-liquid I bet you will get some CO2 in there the tailor once and besides spraying ice cream base all over the kitchen I wasn't able to get as much of an effective as I wanted sits and Mason was working on this for a while, look it's obviously it's possible but the carbonation is only going to be present in the liquid phase so you're going to have to the superior sorbet is the better the effect of the carbonation is going to be a man I think you might want to go with the pop rock

a site on dry ice ice cream where instead of making ice in liquid nitrogen which is something Dave and I have been known to do dry ice into it and then put it in the left it sit Linda thinks I'm busy the carbon dioxide does not get absorbed very much into the ice cream base a little bit of dust texture that looks almost exactly like white bread

that's not quite the same thing as you're describing

okay cool I mean I all right I once made it by mistake like a many many years ago chill the face with dry ice because I found a soft serve machine on the street and the chilling thing didn't work and I chill down the basement dry ice and then frozen soft serve and and it was it was horrible first of all it was the only time I had is the first time I like many many years ago that I had made a large amount of Base at once in a pot by hand and a kirtle the eggs at the bottom and show it tasted like scrambled egg soda ice cream but not the good kind of Heston Blumenthal away kind of in a really crappy I mess up the ice cream way

hello okay I appreciate your conversation with Steve Miller was that the oldest

Steve Miller's worst song is clearly Abracadabra I don't know whether Nathan weather Steve Miller fan or not but the worst song Steve Miller ever came up with by far Abracadabra I'm told that we have. We lost him if they can if they come back they come back okay we had a question in from NED word Viator Nathan noted that someone spotted you on an airplane reading the modernist cuisine PDS do you plan on selling the PDS to pour Cooks who can't buy the book

you know I really don't think anyone spotted me on an airplane doing that he looks this is not this is not me this is coming in via the Internet

has not been in that situation I can promise you that exist to print the Block in PDF for a key part of the whole printing process that's how the book get sent over to the printer in China is as PDFs of course a PDF of the book and we have had there was a period where we had some reviewers that needed to see the book we didn't have physical book so we had a password-protected website work reviewers could go read the PDF the result was kind of interesting people found that it was better than nothing but only a little bit better than nothing and that the usability was not very good I think if we really wanted to make a online or interactive or iPad version of the book we have to do something a lot more extensive than simply put the PDFs up there be

navigating around those huge photos navigate around the rest of the book is just too hard

right all right let's take some day I would like to have an interactive version of the book

and we made a decision at two years before release as to what platform we would Target first we chose paper books because there was no iPad and Kindle didn't do color still. So you really couldn't have something that would really show off what we were trying to do at some point in the future we will probably make a interactive version but it's a lot of work going to get that quality to get the interaction the same you can get the quality what you want you can easily do an online version animations do you want to have good navigation all of those things take some software development effort or they take a whole bunch more effort in shooting a video it's not easy to do the plans you could do it now but you can't do it right and you don't want to do it wrong

exactly you said it better than I did not call her that. Got dropped his back on the arrows take one last call hello caller you're on the air I have a question about acetic marinades in the book on modernist cuisine there's a section on Ustick marinade in meat and the section talks about how ethics marinade can actually tenderize meat since it's improved are and what you're holding capacities I was interested in

how you guys came to the conclusion because I've noticed that there are others like Harold Mickey to believe that that's ignorant needs only on teenager protein on the surface of meat

take it away and I think there's two issues going on here first of all marinades only penetrate a certain distance that's just a fact and any marinade is only going to work on the surface if you don't even give it enough time to it to go in or you don't do something like injection or tumbling or other things to speed it up and it's hitting marinade if it's

there are many cookbooks that will have an acidic marinade for you put the meat in for a very short. Of time 20 minutes or something like that that is just the surface flavoring and that's fine if that's the flavor you want to get you just shouldn't think you're going to change the interior of a piece of meat in a 10 or 20 minutes. It isn't going to happen it takes too long for the diffusion time

certainly will denature proteins all the way through the meat if you get the marinade all the way through the meat and either by waiting long enough or by using injection or tumbling or all of the above you certainly can get that to happen

and similar things of course occur with a Alcala marinade in either case what you're trying to do is take the meat proteins into a mother not normally present in meat so you either make it much more acidic or much more often either one causes of breakdown and desirable but I promise it will work all the way through if you inject it or or tumble it or simply wait long enough or have you meet me soon enough

alright thank you there you have it and I would like to I'm going to I'm going to answer where he can get high-proof liquor in England because he wants to do infusions and wants to know if you really need to high-proof liquor answer Josh yes you can't buy Everclear in in England though they don't sell it look for spirytus vodka out of Poland let the whiskey exchange or look for Stroh rum from Austria the original 80% that'll float your infusion boat I have many many thanks thank you Nathan for spending this last hour with us I think people really enjoyed it hopefully you'll come on again sometime modernist cuisine the greatest series of good books ever written cooking their shoes

thank you

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supposed to be

praying mantis snake

you got the head all the Twister

I have a chance to swap

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