Cooking Issues Transcript

Episode 43: Harold McGee

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hello welcome to cooking issues is Dave Arnold your hose to cooking issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from 12 to 12:45 here in the studio with mustache and a hammer Lopez and special unannounced guests collar in Harold McGee so it is Harold there

good morning Dave morning good morning how you doing to listen I didn't tell him you guys out there that he was going to be on when I actually told him can you just answer these two questions are going to try and keep me on as long as I can if you if caller calls in will you take it you know I'd love to other millisecond of your what you're saying right will re-establish Harold's questions calling your questions to 718-497-2128 that's 718-497-2128 and I should say is going to be Texas themed songs in the in the middle because I just got back from Texas I did choose I'm already by the way today is our show brought to you by city chicken right which is Anastasia's Next Band I think City Chicken right but a on the on the subject of

raising Livestock in the city something I've been interested in a long long time is micro livestock the CFA without a book on micro livestock maybe about 15 years ago 10-15 years ago and I read it with much interest did you know Anastasia that there are breeds of livestock that although not as efficient at producing meat or milk as the larger breeds of Lifestyle can be raised in situations where you don't have enough land to produce even one so if you you don't have enough passion to raise even one cow you can raise to micro cows and those two micro cows will produce one third of the milk of a regular cow but you couldn't even raise a regular right you like that so what I want is anyone's willing to raise some sort of micro livestock it legally in the city I think we should ship together and buy them one like by Alexa by like a couple of people have pet pigs but what if you had like a micro eating pig you know what I mean or like in their apartment you think we should support that are not why not

find the animal

so you think about do we have a Harold back on the line Health back very good is that connection better Harold cell phone AT&T as am I right this one works so the first question we had in was about legumes comes from Adam Frost and I guess he saw out of the UK because he spells flavor with the UK kind of a fashion but he says Legos and some greens have a slightly awkward vaginal taste when raw but this dissipate after a certain amount of cooking using proportional to the size of the seed is this the work and or destruction of enzymes also if you cook some starchy food again grains and legumes for far too long probably 12 hours they can develop an off-label

difficult to describe if you know what I'm talking about do you know what causes this and I tried to figure out this answer on my own but I realize this is really Harold's you know purview also before I go I didn't introduce Harold like the two people who might have ever listened to this you don't already know who Harold is Harold McGee is the is the grand master of science as it relates to making things delicious wrote the Seminole book on food and cooking first edition right which you need to go buy even if you have a new one you need to go by the old one because it's quite different from the current on food and cooking what books have been you know since 84 I think and the other one since when like 2,000 for the the the things you need in your kitchen if you want to help explain what's going on while you're cooking it's like it's the reference work if you get one book at that one that's kind of how it works but you should also by the old one I'm OG Herald by the way I had the original before the new one came out so I consider myself OG

OG Harold fan you also need to go on bookfinder and pick up a copy of curious cook which is going to teach you more in my opinion from knowing you for several years kind of how Harold thinks he's thinking about things which is the most important thing to do when you're when you're trying to observe food closely and figure out what's going on and so that's like the more personal book and that and that the newest book is that keep the keys to cooking right

and what that is is basically like short form like how to get the answers quick on what's going on without having to delve into the depths of on food and cooking sets accurate

if and Bree get her thank you and the new book which it is not even scheduled but the one I know he wants to write is like the next magnum opus or nothing allowed to talk about this but let the next magnum opus I think that's going to come out is at and it could be you know a billion years I don't know is something on tape taste and flavor and it's probably going to be the most difficult if I had to write it would be the most difficult of the one so far because they're so much not known and there's so much work being done in such a complicated subject would you say that's fair or no only right and in fact that that's kind of in the background of these questions that you sent to me what's going on in Real Foods is why I knew you'd be on top of it so what are your thoughts

so on this question about let you men grain flavor it does turn out that died beans and peas and Sean and it does have to do with a very high levels of enzymes in the sea that break down fats and fatty related to molecules oils phospholipids molecules like fats and oil they don't have intrinsic aromaz of their own or favors but when you break them down into smaller molecules and we can taste them and we can smell them

6 carbon and 8 carbon molecules that have the flavor of fennel grass and leaves and things like that on the one hand and on the other hand so in a way that the Flavor of Life in some particular is leafy greens plus mushrooms combined together atoms question about that flavor is there for hurricanes the action hose on Zayn so they actually generate more and more of these drives off those molecules forces them to react

ask Harold and you shall receive right experience cooking for a long time off flavors on starchy Foods

you know I've never cooked just greens or Beans by themselves for a long time I certainly know cooked and reheated bean dishes and that kind of thing that's different experiment to cook beans for 12 hours to see what happens to them I don't really know offhand what I just described and extending it for a long long time and so that's why the water is slightly alkaline in your getting some sort of my reaction that you perceive is no flavor cuz you don't want that bread Inus or two you're getting some sort of fat oxidation or whatever fats are leftover I don't know what do you think

yeah it could be knows it could be that your because at the same time that you're creating flavor you're also losing it because you're cooking it for so long and I left with the less volatile stuff and so the balance of the Romans is going to change and maybe it's just going to be something that doesn't smell as much like jeans or are grains as you can see you're like losing a masking flavor yeah yeah but I don't think that's of these particular foods that have a lot of starch like bewitch the Pelon cooking of the starch grains break open and you end up with

eventually that stuff may be finding some of the aroma molecules that certain foods high in sugar and Advil affect the molecules which term means that they're not available to our noses to stand in the smaller things breaking down into something else the perfect man to ask these questions I add a second one I thought you were perfect for being a San Franciscan or what do you call yourself San Francisco Ken's what what are you guys

Oakland San Francisco anyway this questions on sourdough which I know you've researched quite a bit especially as regards it's a flavor compounds and so this one's for you from Christian Swanepoel you think that's one pole and we love the new zealanders and yesterday and especially because they have come up in force to say that the show today tonight or Tonite today or whatever it is that was anti me clue is a is a like tabloid farce maybe more on that later. He writes I read quite a bit about sourdough starters and there seems to be a lot of different information about how temperatures and hydration levels affect the starter

and also the final bread dough Peter Reinhart is a well-known author in the world says that a firmer starter promotes the production of lactic rather than acetic acid while instructions that come with a starter I bought cuz the one way to self died because he neglected it join the club Christian says exactly the opposite the instructions also say that warmer temperatures in Courage lactic acid and cooler temperatures acetic acid elsewhere the putting the dough in the fridge halt East activity while lactobacilli continue to produce acid could you please clear this up for me and maybe we should you want to handle that one and then handle the second question seconds promise after that is a different different kind of question pieces of information about hot temperatures in hydration levels affect starter and final bread dough boy is that true that there's a lot of different

when I review the literature back in the early part of the country 2000-2003 or so for the lesson I drew at the time was that cooler temperatures are actually end and former Chargers are better for the yeast cuz he knows how you got that are providing the gas for leavening but you also got bacteria that are generating a lot of the flavor including acids which is why it's a Sourdough and some acid is good for flavor and four other properties of the sourdough but too much means that the East don't get a chance to generate enough carbon dioxide to give you a nice 11 lows so you want the bacteria to do well but you really want

East to do well to and the problem is that they that the assets of the bacteria in the kibbutz the growth of yeast so there is a balancing act in general between yeast and the bacteria even before you get into issues of the difference between lactic acid and acetic acid bacteria the lesson I cook tri 4 years ago was that or I guess it's longer ago now than that 10 years ago lower temperature for the patient temperatures and firmer starters gave the East a better chance of being there enough numbers to give you a good though I took another look last night and this morning and even that seems to be in question now so that the basic problem with the whole thing is

the system that depending on who's doing the experiment and what the conditions are people are coming up with completely opposite find it took me know what's what are the best conditions for the growth of the east or forgetting particularly and I just don't know who to believe it's not it's not anywhere close to a single system you're dealing with with you know dozens at least a small amount of research I was able to do dozens of different lactose lactobacillus strains that are involved in different sourdough starters multiple multiple bacterial / starter dozens that are that are commonly known plus different yeasts some wild and the balance of those two things is affected by many things including the type of flower the ash content of the flower of the temperature the hydration all of it affects it right ambience

it's it's incredibly complicated system how much you are rated during the oxygen of something that's useful to remember in general this I think it has not been contradicted by actually do need oxygen to grow well with very little but when you're encouraging them to the grow in your starter so that you start out with a good dose of them in your bread dough it's really good to to whip that sourdough starter or needed if it's a firmer starter a lot in order to get air in there to give the least a leg up on the bacteria

kinds of the lactic acid bacteria some of which most of which actually that hetero fermented ones will actually produce some CO2 and that's how they produce acetic acid the same time if there's oxygen present or other things like fructose there's like you know so adding air will also increase the amount of acetic versus adding oxygen rather will increase the amount of acetic vs. lactic acid measured whole thing's complicated

exactly ends and has the second part of Christians question indicates just getting the thing to grow at all not to worry about the lactic vs. acetic balance because one has an aroma and the other doesn't want to be around if you want a little bit of that but not too much and lactic acid gives you may be a kind of cleaner Darkness then than acetic does but those are real fine points and the important things that begin with his who's getting something going and relatively stable so that you can then begin to refine the the results of the next pass the first break or no

super aren't going to go to my first break all your questions to Harold McGee and cooking issues at 718-497-2128 that's 718-497-2128

they had a warrant out for me all over the country

I was breaking into the school house Sunday morning was I born and when I saw this year up to come anymore and he slowed them down below his field as work blazing when a song

his hand was on his gun when he rolled up

then you kill that woman I know your shutter I'm taking you to also that I'm going to lock you up

play time it would look fly line the next morning I just got back from Austin from the ICP conference get a demo with meals and Chris Young for the modernist cookbook and then emceed the awards with the with Chris Young we went to a lot of barbecue but even though it's like one of the biggest music towns in the city Austin prison and then my favorite part about it is is Johnny Cash go to say say crazy screaming Lynch Mob waited in the streets of Austin which we didn't quite get to but great song you would Johnny Cash man Harold Got Talent Johnny Cash one of my great musical regrets I never got to see Johnny Cash before he died live sissy many of my many of my Idols but not never got to see Johnny Cash anyway Speaking of Chris Young and a modernist cuisine nastasha Harold maybe Chris Young and I and Doug Duda from the ICP

are all I think dogs going to go are all traveling very soon the beginning of July down to South Dade Florida to have a mango orgy we're going to eat a variety of mango several hundred variety of avocado I believe upwards of seven hundred varieties of avocado upper 275 ride is a jackfruit and we're going to do a mega two-day tasting of the type that we have done with Citrus and apples and hit the snooze. Should I do with pears pretty excited about you Harold

very much very much yes forgot to get into training though you know those are high acid fruits we should we should probably we should probably carry some sort of antacid with us right

that's a good idea that's a good idea and thought of that I'm going to need to I need to ship a fruit knife down there for you star has checked luggage rack is going to need a fruit tasting knife I'm going to need I got to figure out a way you can't take the avocados that day I need a good packing technique I was thinking maybe foam in place I am working on anyway it's going to be it's going to be an epic tasting and no one's going to be down there cuz who the heck wants to be in the very southern tip of Florida in the beginning of July my family out after that for like the only family vacation we've ever taken by airplane I was going to take my kids to the Everglades cuz my youngest son likes of alligators and then. But I forgot that my older son has a phobia of flying insects like almost as bad as the girl from the movie chocolate but not quite that bad and and I was recounting

my wife last night as we were going to bed how the mosquitoes are like you know a huge fat mosquitoes it's warm on you like like like I've never seen anything like it to call yesterday from the Everglades someone to Everglades that you swing a quart jar and gallon and get a gallon of mosquitoes and it's it's true it's unbelievable to my wife gave you are in extreme idiot what made you think we should go to the Everglades at the height of mosquito season so now we're trying to think of something else to do in South Florida on the way to visit my 92 year-old Grandpa

I'm just excited about the mango that's all I'm going to say about it and the avocado remember I told you they have an avocado that seedless and is shaped like a banana mythological avocado and obviously the score it wasn't me know when it's hard and then you let it ripen you peel it like a banana which is great because most avocados I find difficult to pee like a banana to say the least. That might be an interesting idea to prieskorn avocado when it's hard let it ripen and then just peel it off course I'm going to do you can't eat with a seed like that dumb dumb anyway I was doing some reading in air blocks of garlic book Harlequin aliens and you know who has one of the foremost collections of aliens in the world

New York Botanical Garden

I know a couple people there yet

navigate Debbie initially tasting I was going to want to get near us tonight that's another good good thing to do when you have a kitchen handy because you going to want to cook some of them back to the questions by the way, your questions to to us or to Harold at 718-497-2128 that's 718-497-2128 ok Ryan Santa is right thing with a cuss word question he has an issue this week with a Buttermilk Pike catering event not his Forte but it's an air-conditioned room with will have no access to Refrigeration during the event event is 3 hours so is it cooked custard safe to sit that long at a sea Temple I have to ice bath it if it is safe what would you suggest to you so they can stay set I figured you wouldn't make it to soft overtime a mix of carrageenans perhaps I would not worry about the safety Harold would you let me know that I would not worry about it at all

no no cuz it's been thoroughly cooked and it's air-conditioned room so it's not gonna be that hot and 3 hours a 3 hour event yeah that sounds sound safe yeah I'm totally okay with that if you're worried about the gelatin but you might be especially during transportation and whatnot I would use images of carrageenans milk BAE Systems is that it takes a preposterously small amount of carrageenan to set up milk bake system so you going to want to use a very little amount otherwise it's going to be too hard kappas going to be brittle and Iota is going to be soft you could use a mix of the most caring hands are mix Anyway by Otis good because if it should break it'll reform along that line so it might prevent cracking or anything like that if you find that you're using just Kappa carrageenan it's too hard you can add a little bit of locust bean gum which is going to soften it up a little bit

any thoughts on that Harold

that sounds good I can also go the old-fashioned way use a little bit of a starch or flour

Tri-C old-fashioned way see ya also at the one thing I always say was safe to use hydrocolloid I don't know if it's been proven her hair will you've done any further research but a while ago there was some work saying that perhaps Kappa carrageenan it is not necessarily a hundred percent safe to use from a carcinogen standpoint in very acid systems but I doubt that the buttermilk has acid enough for it to really be a problem your thoughts on that I haven't looked at it recently but that that sounds correct also as you say its it's a tiny quantity and it's a dessert and so people aren't going to be getting a whole lot a lot less than somebody start chomping on it

haven't seen anything on that research in a long long time so I'm wondering whether or not it's whether or not it's even current Research Medical speaking of current research so you know what the most recent post all that's like 2 weeks old now they have on the site is my defense of transmute a mayonnaise and this this guy writes in and and and says you know basically that his wife has had a whole bunch of gastrointestinal problems and surgeries and and she really liked to eat chicken McNuggets literally chicken McNuggets and cheap cheap cuts of meat and I can't guarantee that wasn't TG that did it to her and of course I can't guarantee it wasn't space people that did it

but something I just want to say about this is that everywhere on the internet and this is the this is as much as I think the internet is literally the greatest tool that has ever been given to us in terms of anything really but cooking as well there's so much crap that gets a propagated like continuously propagated on the internet and the same thing happened to actually back in the an actual literature like you've traced like a searing myth famously trace a searing myth and just keeps on getting probably you know price right after right after I turned tell somebody squash is it everyone says the chicken McNuggets are made with transglutaminase

and the fact of the matter is Trick at the chicken McNuggets were first released onto the scene in 1980 before the for microbial transglutaminase was available and I guarantee you they weren't using guinea pig liver transplant a mayonnaise because it's too expensive and needs calcium to work you do not need transport a mayonnaise to make a chicken McNugget where have I ever been able to find any reference that even even obliquely says that McDonald's uses transglutaminase in their Chicken McNugget formulation now I'm willing to meet they could use it as a way to do it but it's by no means necessary and so I wish people would stop saying that that you know TG is that is the reason you know McNuggets have McNuggets came to be not true even if there is TG in the formulation now people just get all bent out of shape about stuff they have no data about you know what

if you ever heard of TG being used in a McNugget

I have to confess I haven't read a lot about odd scraps of meat together for Millennia the meat and my Sandusky protein and things stick together and it's as simple as that you know it's called the primary buying when you're making sausages and it's how it works it's how it's how it's always worked you know what I'm sure that they have a chicken McNugget batter that they have like some kind of Blended chicken with salt some pieces and they just keep folding it until the until you know the MySims developed and then it'll stick in whatever shape they want no problem

Aunt a lot cheaper than using transport a mayonnaise and if from a production standpoint they don't have to worry about setting time they're setting rates so it's probably easier for them to not use it in that in that application so you know that's one of the things I wish people would just do a little bit like even like a tiny bit of research but if you look everywhere it says nuggets and interesting one is surimi so Serene be right is like fish but basically it's kind of if you read about how to read me has made its kind of horrific when you agree Harold kind of kind of just horrible so I took like they deflate ever they D aromatize and and you know wash a normal kind of flavor out of like whatever kind of fish crap crap they have lying around and then you know basically Regional it again in a kind of Serena shapes and their formally

were made without transportation mayonnaise at all those and there's evidence that there's endogenous meaning of already occurring transglutaminase it might have something that add to some of the gelling capability of the fish makes but there is his true that in current streaming applications and attempt to use fish that don't have a high enough yelling power to make it adequate surimi on their own that they are adding Transportation next to it but don't blame surimi on transport aminase just you know the attempt to Extended even further

yeah are you a big Serena guy Harold some Ramen with with the other stuff like I've kind of liked that a lot if you were to use shrimp instead of Serena it wouldn't be right right that's right and I couldn't eat it all right yeah they do they only use fish in surimi or do they ever put the do they ever put other things like shrimp into it and if they did it so thoroughly washed that any protein is causing you a problem has washed away from it

well I think the the protein that causes me the problem is actually a component of the muscle of muscle proteins that spoke Eliason so I have a feeling it would stick around even through the the 3p processing but the whole point is that you use really really cheap or something like that make something like crab or shrimp and so I think that's the idea actually using crab or shrimp or some kind of crustacean against couple idea of dreaming in the first place again again good Insight +284-718-497-2128 cooking issues

my God my song got you with me tonight

you got back to the basics of love

let's go.

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Jackie that song Just Right waylon-jennings-luckenbach-texas another classic right for tomorrow Texas theme thing that that song is great in fact is Waylon Jennings unfortunately died way too young person I used to play bass with in my high school band is in his son Shooters band pretty cool right Shooter Jennings look so excited on the show

Musashi doesn't like stories really more people so she doesn't like country music much is accurate except for I just don't like hearing the story over and over and over saying sorry can you believe this people this is this is this is what I deserve what I put up with people is what I put up with

okay question actually posted on our trip to this one quick but it's of interest to some people Kitty HP wrote Into the blog actually has a question hoping we can give the answer I received a country ham for Christmas gift I was told you can store them almost indefinitely so I put it in my refrigerator now I'm totally sure is stored in the cupboard my question is that ruin it and I buy stored it too long and he answers will be appreciate what I don't know how long you stored it

Christmas no no it's fine fine fine if you've already cut into it you might get some mold you're the problem American country hams are a little soft in the middle because of the way that you're typically unless I really really aged so if it's already been cut into you might get some kind of unfriendly green mold or some kind of like re-life candida mold right on that face and enlist penetrated so far into the meat that you getting off later on the inside you can just cut a little bit of that off scrubbing the other mold off the off side outside of the meat and I'd be more worried about the fat picking up flavors from the fridge next time freeze it or if you want an agent Moore hang it I wouldn't put it in the cupboard because mites really like dark kind of cool places to chew on ham and I've had that happen and what do you what do you think he'll be restored meet for a long time

yeah I kept a country ham for like a couple of months downstairs cool to cold year-round so I don't have some of the problems you have other parts of the country but literally in a Cupboard and when I opened up the bag it was like might might Central you know once you what I once had like 10 to 15 hands in my house and one of them had a Mite problem which is common but they usually they they do a vape gas the mites out in production

and once you have them in your house like it's a next time you bring a hand minute just chews up the hand but I would not worry about that ham other than any sort of I mean the fridge is problematic from in a Roma standpoint right that's pretty much it interesting question

I've never thought about it that much cuz I use a trim away the mighty area I've never done like just a tasting of it they say it makes it bitter but of course they say the same thing about cheese mites there's the famous might cheese I think from Austria Austria or Germany where they take farc and they let it age in mites until it's basically a big pile of might have ever tasted that stuff that might cheese I haven't tasted that but in France there's a you know it's home to suck why kind of dry long age cow's milk cheese from the mountains in the eastern part of the country there's a version of that called farmers markets when I lived in France and you cook yellow approaching the Demarcus from the parking lot you could smell it from from the edge of a lot I would just follow my nose and I

Aroma delicious so I know some people can't stand it but there are people who is it better or in part bitterness to the cheese and it's it's mainly in a row nothing and no you don't want to actually eat the stuff actually a priest of compound I think it's a ceremony now they use it for Cigna with signaling each other and it gets into the need of the team that sell send the one from last year Germany that's done with Fark you actually think eat them lights like it's basically like mites all the way through

I want to try those now in the stash is this your worst nightmare you like mustaches cork show she can't look at leaves that are deformed she can't look at the Forum leaves. Talk to you about this but I think I did briefly the last time I did the sous vide low temp class I had a bunch of a big crew from South America we had a couple from Brazil and a different countries I forget where else do we have a but they said that there's a tradition down there of storing raw meat under oil we talked about this

know if you ever heard of this

I have a no-go Rob needs just for merged under oil and any kind of oil I guess and then and then afterwards they cook it as a storage technique as kind of a pre Refrigeration kind of storage technique but I said is it cured like a Cena you know like like Mexican salt beef and they said no it's not cured and then I mean maybe there's a language barrier I said is it cooked and they said no hasn't been like a Reno like a like a real Dora comfy and they said no it hasn't been cooked and I was like well do you die when you eat and they said no but I mean a couple of things I guess is that I mean I don't know if they actually do salt before they put it under but if you're going to cook the the bejesus out of it I mean you're going to kill most everything is going to grow and there's going to be heat labile right answer for meant anyway before anything else happens because it's such a high water content it should form

and get kind of lactic we should also knock back the the bottles and all that crap right

but a very interesting oh yeah I've never never heard of that before in my other weird South American question for you are you aware of the of the the traditional freeze-dried Peruvian like Inca potatoes

yes. Remind me to Blanco any recipe that doesn't taste like a goat's of dogs private parts because it is or how I imagined it goats dirty private parts to to taste it smells like a barnyard but like like hey it's been pooped on like goat anyway I could be sheep I haven't been around a farm enough to really distinguish goat from sheep around Malone and the

the way they make this is they take potatoes these special I think somewhat bitter Mountain potatoes they let them freeze overnight then they saw I think they do that a couple times and throw it in a sack in in a well for like 30-40 days then they pull it out and then they let it dehydrate a couple of times with a couple more freestyle cycles and I was really excited to try them you just boil them and then like put cheese over them in and eat them like that guy with a horrible just got to be live got to taste better people like them there has to be a way to cook it so that it's good only the Japanese fermented soybean not is the only ingredient I've ever come across I can't imagine being used to good effect to somehow but yeah you know you haven't have the fresh stuff right I need to bring that next time we get together cuz there's no company here in Northern California who's making it

everything we get in this country eventually comes from Japan and it's frozen and it's weeks old and it's not that good but there's nobody here now making it fresh and it's it's really wonderful garbage it does not know know I will receive my judgment I have had a version that I think is not sure to anaerobically fermented like that now it's just been essentially you freeze freeze dried over several repeated cycles and left in the Sun

veteran potatoes flavor but it doesn't have the off flavors that you're just driving so maybe they're just different versions of prefix on the front of that white thing is just like white white Junior I think it was just chewing your Blanco or something like that are there other other versions of it hard to do the research on that on the web just not that much information out there oh she's she's right across the river maybe next time maybe next time you're in we can see whether she

cannot produce it for us in a way that you know good with someone sent in a in something from the daily which is I guess a new iPad base news service written and I can't pronounce the person's name so I'm not going to mangle it but it's called the other white meat and it's a story about czimer's meets in Illinois and they're serving lion and it's basically an expose on this company in the reason I guess it was sent to our blog is because eat me of a year-and-a-half ago or so we did a we did a piece on cooking exotic meats right so Yak was a delicious lion taste like pork Beaver is delicious eccentric such a raccoon we didn't like so much I didn't like they're fucking of them anyway

basically this guy czimer's if you call him like you said it's all legit which is why we ordered from him but further research has shown that he basically served at its old endangered animals illegal endangered animals tigers as lions knowingly and went to jail for it and he says that he just copped a plea because that's what his lawyer told to do but if you call him up and you talk to him his attitude isn't I try to be extremely Vigilant to make sure this doesn't happen something slip through his attitude is much more like well

I don't do a DNA test on the animal and you know I ain't no I don't I don't want to get in this other guy's business was handing me the animal so if he says it's lying it's lying right and when you're dealing with things that are right on the edge of what are going to get you death threats from people on the telephone it pays I think be a little more Vigilant I don't know and so I guess Eddie I was aware of of that which is why we don't order from that supplier anymore we don't have a supplier actually right now of of of those kinds of meat lion doesn't fact taste like pork but it is it hard like hard to cook actually because it even though it has very little connective tissue in it it's extremely tough and I don't know why I even a fairly fairly low temperatures but maybe we can ride this out with an ethical discussion of eating things like flying me I don't know how you feel about this Harold but if the animal is not endangered

understand why anyone living creature has more dignity than any other living creature you know we have certain feelings for animals that you know I served as well like horses dogs over the Millennia but pigs have also served as well or incredibly smart and we Slaughter and by the by The Bushel you know what I mean

so I don't know what do you have any thoughts on this kind of moral ethical question or Too Deep to bring anyone expecting to get put on the spot with this kind of thing or agree with you in general that the animals we already eat are they have a lot going for them to until unless we're going to sit back and kind of re-examined things from from scratch as long as we're meeting culture and these animals are not endangered then I think it's fair to the taste of those long as they're not know that they haven't been obtained and get something out of it too and there's that kind of classic argument that domestic animals that are raised for food have you know somehow entered a bargain with us you know where we take care of them we provide them shell

4-H in something that is approximating approximating you know something that's good for their well-being and in exchange we kill them early but maybe not necessarily earlier than they would have died anyway in the wild and this is the argument for one of the arguments for why factory farming is is horrible other than taste which is the argument against factory farming vs. Farming by Tamia maybe there's also something to that and people's reaction in that typically these Lions haven't been stored in the best kind of situations they're usually like pain. And they're kept for various crazy Reasons by various crazy people and then you know afterwards are basically executed for their for their fur and then the meat becomes a by-product which we then use so you know maybe there's something there I don't know

that's not it is complicated if the animals are are being kept and slaughtered for other reasons then it's kind of like the argument for using all of the animal when you slaughter a pig or a lamb otherwise then why not put it to use when I write exactly exactly and it to me you know once you accept the fact that we as a meeting culture allowed to kill the animal then you know you've you've entered into you ventured into his own where you're allowed to kill the animal to eat it right and so you know I don't like I said before I don't see a lion as a more agust entity any help from you no brain standpoint than a than a pig just because we grew up in miring lions and not pigs doesn't really

change that in my book but

Harold thank you so much for being that you have any last things that you want other than we're going to eat the heck out of some mangoes in the in about a month so I'm really looking forward to that end and was very glad for this I mean he texted me anytime I really you shouldn't say that cuz I'll take you up when we love having you on the show

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get it straight

this is behind the scenes food news with Katie Kieffer all of the trade papers are just buzzing with the information is that Mark Zuckerberg the founder of Facebook has decided that he's only going to eat food that he himself is killed as in proteins so that's far he's killed a goat a pig a chicken and some fish but he's going to start hunting he says so that he can it'll basically be more mindful of what he is putting in his mouth and into his body and to quote a CNN Money article he says this year my personal challenges around being thankful for the food I have to eat I think many people forget that a living being has to die for you to eat meat so my goal revolves around not letting myself forget that and being thankful for what I have this year I've basically become a vegetarian since the only meat I'm going to eat is from animals I've killed myself and that's far this has been a good experience I'm eating a lot healthier foods and I've learned a lot

about sustainable farming and the raising of animals that has been trying to see

Erin Fitzpatrick and Brian DeMarco host unfiltered Heritage Radio network is very own wine program here's a small clip I will say it was the the special Cuvee which is an explain the difference between that and rotor in a minute but John special Cuvee was the most three-dimensional wine that I had in my mouth so that point it was actually pretty much one of the only ones of the day really spectacular and it's made it just in a different style from because it is a set a certain portion of the blend every year and their style is aged in barrels and it gives it more of a toasty for style and stay away from that but it's true James Bond all things

every Tuesday at 4 p.m. live to unfiltered or check out the old episodes are archives also make sure to subscribe to the podcast in iTunes thanks for listening