Cooking Issues Transcript

Episode 35: SPORE SPORE SPORE

British has been issues on Heritage Radio Network in California to visit her parents for her birthday almost a month prior to her birthday how is that true or not if you have +912-718-497-2128 that's 718-497-2128 so last week we had a question from actually I telephone question from forgetting who's your crush not Salt Rising bread and I Salt Rising bread is a unique kind of bread at least back in in this country anyway at least to the 1840s and 1850s and basically died out almost everywhere except for in certain places like Western New York so I said which was truthful I don't know anything about it

the reason why I'm late by the way that's why I'm late today now in fact I didn't get to make it 100% like it was supposed to I didn't get a chance to go all the way through the proofing I kept waiting for it to finish is proofing in the proofing time this kind of bread is very variable so anyways I had to throw it in the oven too early also I didn't add any Quest Reitman like an egg wash everything to it so the top is rather shallow and I pulled it out of the oven and literally put it into a metal box and ran to the studio so that's why I'm late on the stash and I are going to try it it's still hot but it's a cool enough to touch Al

and I brought some butter

it's okay it's alright

put some butter on some of this break off a piece and try and then we'll have to try it we'll talk about okay meanwhile

this is the first week that I'm doing the radio show as a forty-year-old auspicious beginning to my fifth decade on this planet on the way home from work on my birthday I got doored by a by an SUV and pooped over to the street and all mangled and bruises go away start right I think so but more of the same right like why why should life change just cuz you get older anyhow and another thing this is the first show where the stash actually currently is no longer an employee of the French Culinary Institute and I am I am now an independent contractor so I'm officially in business for myself now as well as still a director cleaner technology so it's being brought To Us by today Jack

Hurst Ranch horse ranch I don't have the words to read about her friend but hurts Ranch is I believe one of the oldest privately owned kind of a meat farms in the in the country right and they have ate a huge range of a of delicious grass-fed cow that I've eaten and the stuff's really good sponsor in front of the show and their their website is www.firstreliance.com I correct Check Yes okay so now we're tasting are salt

I need more salt

well interesting or get into that

look at is that excuse me I'm eating

so one of the peculiar things about Salt Rising bread is it has if you smell it a Cheesy Aroma a very very particular cheesy Aroma this particular ones under risen we might have to call her which case I will describe the beat the bread in the moment Jack we have a caller

yep, you're on the air

hey Dave from Seattle Washington and I have got myself and I was going to try my first time Kansas City be very careful of course I was going to try and I was just hoping you might give me a couple pointers to give me on my way nearly the same thing as a thermomix as a Europeans know it a thermomix is a European piece of equipment that's a blender / heater / mixer / scale they're not really that popular in this country cuz they're very expensive here in the US but they're extremely popular in Europe where they don't have vital press which are extremely popular here anyway the bronze or more properly b.braun thermomix

is an old-style company that made B Braun made circulators back in the day and they have been made for a classic Bieber on green right 1419 Beaver hungry and I had a couple of those that actually were harvested from from the naval Labs at Pearl Harbor which is kind of interesting in the Bible leave early early 80s and it lasted a good long time or the click click it in or with that with a thumb with me maybe .5 degrees plus or minus you know kind of thing it's probably at least as they age they might have some drift Inn in there cat

vibration not probably from the instrument self and maybe from the electron acceptor know how to calibrate it so I would take it before you do anything and do an ice water bath you know I just make sure they're registered in general what goes bad on those circulators the motor will eventually we're bad now if you had one that was used for not very much and it was mothballed relatively early in its lifetime it can still have many good years of life had a bit but too well so I had one that I kept alive don't tell anyone this question telling everyone is I had one that I kept alive for a long time with a Little Squirts of I mean I didn't have any food-grade lubricant on me so I use WD-40 just to kill the bearing squeal that is how those things typically when they died that's how they died I threw loss of a bearing because the bearings that were used back in those days weren't she'll the same way that they that the new ones are some of the new ones very rarely have bearing false you know at least I've used him for many years without having a bearing Falls unless you do something real

nasty to them so that's how much did you pay for it if you mind me asking

awesome alright so like I did anything you gets gravy out of it in other words beautiful okay was it really encrusted with oil one of mine had been running oil for a long time was a real pain to clean out

when is pretty much all I had this was no laboratory so I'm thinking it was didn't have some of our Labs ones I got were running oil baths and that's why they had the oil on him so looks like you're in good shape and as long as the bearing are they squealing or they just you can hear the motor turn

am I just do this

oh yeah

yeah and it's moves out after a minute yeah so what's going to happen eventually is your bearing is going to fail there I would try to grease it a little bit which is going to make it last for a while but I think I've even had one once run in restaurants for a little while like that that's going to be the motive failure of that guy but you know he's probably lived a long and honorable life that got back to your other question of the brisket the briskets already been cured right now how you do this depends a lot on what you want the texture of it to be do you want it to be more like a traditional brisket texture or do you want to achieve kind of one of these real low temperature textures and people are arguing so typically tell you what I do I don't cook a lot of brisket but I'm going to equate it too short rib for you how about that right you can I don't do any temperatures below about 57 because I find that nobody wants this stuff really rare bloody rare right so no one wants it in like the 55 I'm in Celsius by the way 55 Celsius

range you can cook the stuff down there but here are two problems you might have you're going to if you're going to cook at a very very low temp I would suggest initially doing a quick dunk into simmering water like you know maybe like 15 to 30 seconds of that and that is too that's to kill the bacteria on the outside now the only doing one that's not a big deal but if you're doing more than one and you don't do that in the bags are touching each other the lactic acid bacteria that are alive on the inside of the bag can get a chance to grow before the temperature gets high enough to kill them and I especially see this and people that cook long-term things below about 57 degrees Celsius so like if you're going to go below 57 I would do like a quick like a quick dip and simmering water or else you know pre searing helps but you know the stuff still in the in the in the sauce right so overcrowded and in and I typically go above 57 anyways

Evans about the lowest I'll do like a short rib and a brisket might be around the same thing for 57° you're going to want to shoot anywhere between 48 and probably 60 hours in that range so you're going to have to get a feel for it you can feel it in the bag is it goes at 48 hours it will stay at that temperature it will still have quite a bit of to see but bite to it by the time you get to the upper range of that indefinitely by the time you get to 72 hours it's going to in my taste be kind of mushy it will have lost its texture which I don't find Pleasant some people like it right I don't find a place in general I find people like the slightly beef your flavor you get out of a something it's like 60° so it's 60 degrees Celsius which is 140 our cook it for about two days and then progressively as you go higher you can cook it less and less I wouldn't cooking much about 63 or 64 because anything above that I would just as soon cook it traditionally that make sense

yes all right so I would try would try those I would try those ranges and see how they are

if I do that that would it be to put around it in the bag or just a little bit if you're going to vacuum it down a little bit back from going to make sure that you don't put a lot of liquid in the bag was going to taste really poach right reduce any liquid that goes in and reduced because if you're going to come traditionally you're going to be evaporating liquid often in the bag you won't give a shit get a friend tell me about having a good luck with your thermomix okay thanks Colorado take a shower and then we'll take a break are you on the air

are the are the raw food discussion to you're having another thought experiment here at the brewery we're just kind of thinking you would it be possible to brew a Rob beer I know where the main problem I was thinking how families in Baytown ways to convert the mash is normally done pretty high you know 150-160 early primitive beers were people would just Shew on you know the starch that corner whatever that they are families in the saliva would break it down so I was thinking you might be able to get conversion of a match at 1:18 what do you think love to hear what you had to say that first of all I think the both of us find it hilarious I finally ours I'm sure you do to that you're not that you would typically used temperatures that are higher than than raw food would allow a

how to activate an enzyme in the whole purpose of raw food is to keep enzyme to laugh so I find that amusing and by the way for those are you listening we're not welching we just had to post but we're still doing the raw food at the Waffle thing it's going to come up very soon I would assume that yes those enzymes are going to I'm going to work it's just you and you're going to be you going to be thrown off your your times and the obvious that you might not get the you know you're shooting for the mash temperatures that are going to get the right balance of the alpha and a beta amylase is working for you so you can get the right the right breakdown products that you want aside and I'm sure you could get to work right at a hundred a hundred and twelve or whatever it is that they want you to eventually I don't know what you're going to get complete conversion but the real problem is you're not going to be able to boil the the boil it afterwards and then CO2 extract

when they do. If you know if they get above and 118 for those I assume it's all pulled side right with the liquid CO2 knowledge of all done it's all done cold and did they sell that they sell the they sell the the is really going to be rocking at 1 115-118 you know is there any way to look that you would inhibit that so to let the you know the alpha and beta do what they can at the temperature today going to be a shower with it you know long before I think the starch is converted I'm thinking I'm thinking about it and

I'm trying to think of something that's not going to also later inhibit yeast or that you can remove that is going to prevent lactic acid from appearing in there

have you thought of anything or know you know that chemical side of things are not really involved with it all so I don't know if we wanted to obviously we wouldn't you know be able to make a great fear but I just thought I'd be not that I don't want to encourage that kind of behavior from you let you know all the ins on to reason Brewing don't even start till above 118 except maybe you know some beta glucanase or something personally arrange that you could open up a second a separate market segments off as possible because you know you go to these places and they have basically wines Liquors because they haven't picked up a rotary evaporation yet so none of them have done that is that I know of you know what I mean so I'll definitely be drinking homemade liquor off done off of the raw prove lines when I'm when I'm doing the wrong with an interesting an interesting problem

kind of hit the nail on the head if you going to have that the main problems are going to be during that that the mashing I don't have filters that I would trust you to filter it out afterwards that we're going to clog like a lunatic but if you have them you could definitely definitely do it have you ever just had like you ever just like it also you're the other problem is your barley is going to be killing the two high temperature

are possibly yeah I think they do kill it kill it about 1:30 so I might have to look into that doing something for these Sprout all the sudden they don't be possible maybe to do a mash it wasn't killed if you use it as as soon as the thing you know reach the proper stage of malting we wanted to try it off right I mean when it be possible to then directly go to the mash stage horrible I've never done my own malting but I hear that that's as much of an art or more so is anything else and sprouted the corn and mashed that off the Record

delicious I mean the amount we got out of it was ridiculously small United like 15 lb of corned we got a pint of finished product but it was so sweet and flavored just came through so much better than you know modern moonshine is his corn sugar for the most part but local environment only had to be you know the teacher that the other non-alcoholic teachers if they have up here but you know assuming that those are boil free you also might look at maybe it's easier to get the breakdown of the mash in corn rather than in a barley I don't know I don't know if the saliva and amylase enzymes are qualitatively different from the ones that we use a from barley malt these are all things that I find interesting so why don't you why don't you investigate it and I'll look into a little bit and then maybe we'll talk about it again on a future show sound good

sing on a food order on a food no. I've been really into cooking authentic Thai food ever since I ate at this restaurant pop back up in the Portland and got all day of Thompson's book and a lot of them call for coriander root and I was one of your TV that have a sorcerer of you ever seen any coriander Roots available anywhere you can get if you can buy some Bunch cilantro with the root still attached and I'll get that but you have in your area don't don't have it or do you not have like a Heart Attack Grill Tri don't have any but you know when I go down to Atlanta and then go to the big ones I've just never seen it anywhere so I grow my own but gotten a bunch of cilantro with the root attached but to look into it

I don't think she'll help thank you and now we are officially going to our first commercial break calling your questions to 718-497-2128

stop

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most of all the funk mother of a chef attended our fundraiser all right to go to back to our Salt Rising bread Salt Rising Salt Salt Rising bread actually doesn't contain a lot of salt although sometimes it can I just went under salted because I didn't really want to taste it during the fermentation process and I'll tell you why Salt Rising bread does not use yeast right typical bread that we use that we make are leavened with yeast different varieties of yeast leavened with a basically a symbiotic culture that both lactic acid bacteria and yeast right and so that it's like the end of specific culture depend on the specific yeast and a specific new strain of yeast in the specific bacterial culture that you have in it and and and that's what gives the characteristic flavors of sourdough bread

right there shower because of lactic acid bacteria are basically I think eating the byproducts of yeast in producing the ass and acidity provides a characteristic Twang and also makes a dough slacker which is why sourdough doesn't have the same taste or feeling as as regular because of gluten is someone broken down by the acidity okay now Salt Rising bread on the other hand is Levan purely by bacterial action and the bacteria involved is clostridium perfringens which is actually a pathogen a food pathogen the second best known her second probably most prevalent are one of the most prevalent at food poisoning bacteria that there are now I made it starts to eat the bread before I said it's because I knew that she would not try it afterwards now there is a dangerous thing is is it's been it's been very very thoroughly studied and there's a study on it called the microbiology Salt Rising bread for done by the West Virginia University School of Medicine fairly recently and

basically what they did was they they they did a study of the different starters on the way you do a startup. Perfringens is a is a is an anaerobic it basically can't grow in oxygen so what you do is you make a liquid mixed with something like cornmeal or something for a dip to feed on right and you can add either salt or or sometimes baking soda or a campden tablet which is basically a yeast inhibitor because you want to stop yeast from growing in there you only want this bacteria to grow in it and you let it sit in a warm place I use my Excalibur dehydrator with which you can also use as a bread proofer to keep it about a hundred degrees Fahrenheit for hours like usually overnight until it gets foamy and starts taking on a cheese like a Roman its characteristic of Salt Rising bread Salt Rising bread some of that comes from one of the byproducts of clostridium perfringens which is butyric acid which is the smell of rancid butter or

high concentrations vomit okay so it has a very specific Aroma that add flour to create a spongy starter what you done let rise again for many hours and then make the dough and then let it rise up yet again and you bake it the texture is a lot wider than regular bread because of the for some reason I already know why they said it's because the assets involved but I doubt that I don't know what it is but it has a different texture its finer bubbles the gas is produced are not carbon dioxide as they are normal bread combinations of hydrogen and I believe also hydrogen sulfide all I'm not sure gas is in the in the bread so it's basically a fundamentally different bread-making mechanism then you would use normally when I when you bake them do they do have this like really like it once you smell it wants it like you're never going to like a mistake the smell of her for a ride again you know what it smells like when it happens

failures of getting a thing to ride but it's very easy for me because I use the excal what she always taking into the gutter always taken into the gutter in a in a non-sexual way gross and and I think it's because they don't have adequate temperature control so one of the reasons it called Salt Rising bread some people speculate because you add salt to inhibit yeast formation and the other thing is that apparently they were the people who used to make it they would they would take salt and heat it up and use that as as I heat as a warm bed warm bit of salt to keep it in to keep the temperature of the starter in the right place while it was heating Because by the way the crunching here in the back isn't me crumpling paper it's just a shot in the bread so thank goodness she's overcome the like the fear of perfringens poisoning Appropriations poisoning and she's eating it has never been reported cases of foodborne illness as a result of eating the bread and the micro the tests they ran on the bread after it was cooked is that it is

basically no active perfringens in forming bacteria so you don't really kill it use kill all the vegetative cells you don't kill the spores

but it's ubiquitousness Tosh obviously I was able to have some words for the word Spore what's wrong with the word Spore

Sports don't move their spores she's making little like spider movement for their hands that they're there it's a Spore you like mushrooms right you know what they make sports for anyway so so it's a very interesting topic actually blog about it there's a very good website or let me know or at least one that's well-known Susan are Brown Salt Rising bread project that you can look up if you want to look at more on Salt Rising bread again the only reason I don't think that I'll be writing about it is because I have so many things I need to write about already and I haven't done it but besides that it's already been handled pretty well I think by these other guys have anything to add to it you know what I mean like I wouldn't do anything fancy or different like I didn't make like a Salt Rising chicken and you don't even like if I can come up with like a Salt Rising chicken then we know we can do something very different with a here we are eating the Salt Rising bread and I definitely will experiment with it more myself because it's interesting and I like

I like I like the taste if I can get it to rise a little more if I proved it longer I'm done with wheat flour and then try maybe doing it with the right person but I'm going to maybe add a little bit of Rye I've wadded up a napkin so I don't have it that's how we operate in radio here by the way we have crumbled up napkins with it with because for some reason some reason I can't ever commit the telephone number of the radio station to memory no matter how many times I've said it's like literally goes It goes off the paper into my eyes through my mouth and it's gone never never has any any residents time in my brain all right hey guys look forward to show each week thank you this is from Glee I've got some pork shanks I'm going to cook low temp looking for some guidance on time and temperature I've done lamp

make it 70° Celsius for 36 hours then bone-in pork shoulder at 61.5 degrees C for 48 hours both came out great but the great variances me lost for the pork shank spoke a lamb shank is 70c for 36 hours that's a long time we see 7436 + 61 / 48 what's funny is those are about equivalently so in other words you got to choose the temperature and the time is it if I were going to do it closer to the second 161 4:48 or maybe 63:4 about 56 57 give that a shot the two numbers you have her actually fairly Quillen even though they seem desperate because you have to cook for a lot shorter time is the temperature goes up anyway I hope that I hope that helps and give us a call and tells how are your porch and turn up by whoever call her and call you on the are alright what's up

I'm wondering about the beer cooler suvee I'm currently in the process of building my own emergent circulator and it's just taking a little longer than I expected

it is far as safety goes is there anything I should really worry about when cooking like whole fish inside of a beer cooler are you a beer brewer

no but it's the one thing that you should hear what you're what you need to do you need to the outside of your product is going to be cooked a little more than the in the inside your product with a nature of the beast when you're doing this kind of work okay you're going to have to do is I mean are you going to get that the standard Homebrew special that got 5 gallon cooler

yeah yes so for those of you that don't know like the standard like thing to to to start your Homebrew mashing in is is I don't know why but the company got is the one that everyone gets deal I think TT 5 gallon cooler what you do is is you drill a small hole to fit your whatever it is whatever thermometer you have to get a long stem thermometer and a drill a hole in the top of the of the cooler with a thermometer in pouring water that's close to the temperature you want to cook two while make up a number 57 Celsius right and I'm making it up pour it in throw in the thermometer and wait and take readings every every little bit right and figure out figure out exactly how fast the temperature drops you should be able over the course of a couple of hours to keep it within about 5 to 10 degrees pending on how to get the cooler is right now you know your temperature dropped so what you do is you say okay

play the second thing you need to calculate is the weight of the water that you're going to add and the weight of the meat that you're going to add right then you calculate the temperature of the meat that you're going to add and the enemy have to calculate what you want the temperature of the water to be right so let's say you have a 10 degree drop so you know you're going to cook it for for an hour and a half and you know you're going to get a 10 degree drop over that hour and a half so let's say you're going to cook at 135 which is about 5735 you want what you want your finish temperature to be so you start you want to do your start calculation with the water starting out at 145 degrees is it makes sense so far

so now you know you want to start temperature of 145 degrees so what you do is you say okay I have less a 30 lb of water at I need more water than meat right you guys 30 lb of water at at at what temperature do I have to have that 30 lb of water to be such that when I add 5 lb of meat at you know 40° see it when you add those things together the water and a thing average out to being a hundred and a hundred 50 hundred 50 hundred 4506 it's really hard to do this without a piece of paper in my hands is look up calculations at Brewers use to do strike temperature Ryan so it's called strike temperature and that's that the water that they use when they add the bar

to it and they want the mash to come out exactly the right temperature they do the exact same procedure so you can use the exact same equation so I would just go down to any Brewing site and strike water temperature calculator and you should come out all right just make sure that you know what your temperature drop over the course of the intended cooking time is cuz typically going to be longer than it would be for a brewer on mashup imagine writer you have an offer to have someone give us there as soon as I get one which is just laziness and stupidity is only reason I don't have it but

mixed results and I find attempt to make a very sort of Oz on the biggest problem being that I think you're using paper filters with it and they're not the greatest paper filters I think that you have a lot like a place that has a clover like an independent coffee shop has a clover machine I brought it in and compared and they make sort of a similar technique but I think a metal filter would make a huge difference in allowing a little more of the oils and flavor to get through so that's that's just my odds on the west coast if you went to a place with a clover some pressure in the Aeropress which is going to probably change the coffee quality a little bit cuz they're the clovers basically just using the Piston to extract out of the ground is not using it

under any really elevated pressure but yeah and I need I need I need to play with a coffee geek it obviously is a good place to go because people have done naught Aeropress work a lot of Aeropress work but please get back to us with the results of your of your God cooler cooking tell us what happens I will babe thank you so much and I will one last question I hope to get to I have to go faster than this. She's giving me that evil look like okay and a contortionist questions little long they say sorry if I had liquid to a ziplock bag and then cook a chicken breast sous vide isn't the flavor going to be leashed out into this liquid I run your low temperature prime rib at the water hotdogs are cooked in Regis equilibrium with the hot dogs and soda flavors not altered and at this water is we used all the time and so it's okay for the hot sauce doesn't taste the flavor but this seems impractical at home as I only cook chicken breasts every few weeks or something is there a way to safely store the stock and I that you use for cooking chicken breasts weigh and we use it

straight antifreeze in the stock stock seems an obvious approach but is that the best way does the repeated freezing and thawing diminish the quality of the stock or should you always add pre-made stop to it all right my feeling on this you can freeze stock no problem and we thought it doesn't hurt the quality of it the main problem with quality is with with the with freezing things as long as you actually contain and tighten you don't have a oxygen touching them in and there's not a lot of fat in them so they can go and have rancidity problems the main problem is actually just cells are being dehydrated don't we hunt hydrate properly and freeze thaw Cycles or gels breaking things like that you don't care if the gelatin breaks because you're going to heat it again to the point where the gel is going to melt again anyway and there's no sales to lose quality so soup can be and stocks can be repeatedly Frozen and thawed as long as you're not like damaging them with oxygen content or there's a lot of fat are you having a problem like that so I wouldn't definitely would not worry about this training and

business talk again and again and again you can also put in a very very small amount of liquid like if you when I do chicken I basically I will speak to the lady from the question which I don't have time to read but when I do chicken not typically what I'll do is I'll I'll salt them and actually a little sugar computer instead of brining and then I'll put it into my into my Ziplocs and I'll add a little bit of milk but just enough to get a good seal on it so it's not really sucking that much flavor out of the chicken but that stuff actually as good as a suitcase cuz it's got chicken flavor and you know it's salty already don't can't use a straight as it is because it's usually too salty but I do that and then I use it for a different preparation right so you can do that but that does dilute the chicken flavor somewhere but not a lot but you could definitely just reuse it the other question you had is adding liquid to a steak cook sous vide seems weird to me especially appreciated can I apply the principles you teach me I'm cooking the chicken breast this way to cook a steak or other meats I would not add water to a stake in the bag

or a liquid I've done test with stock and it's okay and obviously we do a super reduction of meat juices for when we're doing a short ribs and stuff like that but they're very very very reduced because they need to be not that much thicker than a braising not that much thinner than a braising sauce even after the meet exudes always do such as it's cooking so I typically actually don't like to use liquids in the bag with a steak liquid water based liquid I use butter right so what I'll do when I'm cooking a steak in a ziplock bag and this is what I recommend to you is I use butter and I and if you like garlic a good thing to do is to chop up garlic and throw it in the bag with the melted butter seal it took it that way in the bag and then that butter is in a mediately useful for garlic bread with guess what goes deliciously with steak mean really deliciously in fact what I do is I pour out the butter and the juices that came out of the steak strain out the garlic cuz then you don't want it to burn right in the garlic flavor is already in the butter and then I whisk the I wished that the meat juices and the butter together a lot

directly on the bread and then fire that bread while I'm searing a steak and both things come out at the same time and everybody's happy even my hyper finicky kids all right I am being told that we are out of time is that correct Jack come back next week and give us all your questions, call me to fix Co-op transplant

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