Cooking Issues Transcript

Episode 349: Fruit Loops on Speed feat. David Zilber, Author of The Noma Guide to Fermentation

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radio network every Tuesday for me and I don't know sometime after 12 till like about one especially the Stasi has to leave on the button today because I join the dude who witnessed a city Hammer Lopez how you doing she's a flying off to her native land to LA today 24 hours what will give you your pictures second where we got to do this is our NPR version of the Pick-4 money you got mad in the booth a little low and in a minute we're going to have I hope we had any call before but I guess she doesn't know how late we normally run Dave David zilber for who I is the co-author of the Noma guide to fermentation we're going to talk fermentation in a minute while we're waiting cat want to give you a push

Sunday December 3rd at 6 p.m. is our annual fundraising gala gala Garden it is at Brooklyn botanic garden the Palm House the really pretty Glass House going to have a great lineup of chefs day is going to be making cocktails as well as other to wait what do you mean Damon boelte each other teeth are also going to be slaying cocktails were super excited tickets are still available go to Heritage Radio Network. Org tickets are 135 general admission to 25 VIP VIP gets you in an hour early you get an hour more cocktails you get VIP bikes only VIP people are going to get to spend money on the VIP thing but I always find VIP things incredibly depressing eyes are jaded

remember that we were there for the Justin Timberlake VIP thing that we did when he launches tequila brand orgeat before you start work with me know I was there he wasn't there because the VIPs I like an event like that aren't the real VIP the real the real VIPs are on their own platform in the club looking down at the rest of the of the of the plebs unami they don't want to be in a separate back room with like the with like the tears C&D VIPs they want to be Untouched by the throngs and yet see the frogs speaking of t r a v i p is Dave I've got a friend on the phone

got to be there hello hey how you doing where are you now are you in Copenhagen right now

I am in Copenhagen I'm in the greenhouse which is my little my little get away for more than an hour and a half in my life

that's unfortunate because there's more than an hour and a half worth of stuff to see her like I went from the airplane to the train station now I only go on trips basically for business and Absolut Vodka was like you know what you need to do you don't need to go to Copenhagen no one needs that you need to go to scona so you know you need to come to the south of Sweden and see nothing we get well soon. I mean it's quite alright

geographically it's not the kind of place people have moved to it's a kind of place LA California where people go to die from

I am Toronto to place people go to not necessarily a place people that are from so it isn't your intro or somewhere I read interview with you you literally to go to Norma you sent out a bunch of resumes to like the three places you wanted to go and your first bite was in a coma and that's how you ended up in Copenhagen

yeah that is that is Grant Achatz wasn't so interested in me at the time I think it's one of their kind of like crappy parts and if you know what I mean it's kind of depressing came up I look at people going to want to call it I'm sure you just recently came out with the Noma guide to fermentation now I know where is Ariel's good friend of the show Ariel Johnson she hey there's another guy the fermentation years ago but this one is very different it's much more kind of I mean this in a good way mass-market kind of you know bigger shot differently on kind of a different scale but did you overlap with their yell at all or no

oh yeah yeah she taught me lots of what I know even though I am older than her but

nor should she taught me so much when I first got the bill hasn't really really kind of got me get my feet on the ground in that we work together for made maybe about a year before she moved on then Santa Claus Williams Thousand Oaks big torch to be fast fermentation or your Noma whatever you got your Nordic related questions maybe I guess your Toronto related questions your fermentation related questions you're writing a book related questions to 718-497-2128 that's 718-497-2128 but Madame so we don't have anyone on the phone yet right okay so I'm going to say some things first cuz I did as I say read the book in its entirety what I like about the book and I just have to be a conscious choice

let you know that you made is the kind of you know you can do it to channel Rob Schneider but they you can do it kind of attitude you have in the in the in the book it's you know very very much with the stone that you know you can get her done you know what I mean

yeah but that that was exactly the point I mean it wasn't about to write this book and Renee was like okay and that's okay you know Tom of quitting we couldn't include recipes with centrifuges

I mean it's pretty to look at it and it's but it's not about impressing people empowering people so I really and you won't see if you still wanted to make this butter Emulsion what would you have to do and then you just MacGyver it until you know it makes sense and and the best part about this is that Martha homework cuz I really miss amazing cook without their self was a recipe tester for all that so I actually flew out to Portland as soon as I forgot that's just do this with her and then basically go to the entire process of what number did you know very early on as we are going to the local like those doggies incubators and stuff in her apartment so

I think that's the kind of thing people even though look you can get all that stuff on the years that you can't get off the internet people like what you can't get when you can I guess but the nice thing about a book is a book when you're writing for the internet yesss to good place to put up a DIY how to build you know of fermenting chamber eccentric cetera but there's something about writing a book and trying to turn something into a coherent large format document that just forces the writer into a mental space and it kind of a they do a good job the level of rigor that you don't get writing on the internet you know what I mean so I think it's a usual thing I think books is one of the reasons I think book still have a place what do you think

yeah absolutely it is really forces you do you know until I go through your phone and I don't like there's no steaks you can put something up if it doesn't work or well it gets buried in the history of it it had to do what it needed to do extremely well and you just put yourself into that mindset and I got a team of three Cooks in a Bistro and I really want to do this but how have this huge space and he's amazing incubators and then

thousand-dollar humidity systems and all the stuff I love firm it so it goes like you know lacto ferment kombucha vinegar Koji miso your coach and general miso shoyu Gorham witch and black fruits and vegetables and which has hair like black garlic excetera excetera so until people call I have some questions actually on the well alright but so I'm going to call or you're on the air but why we're doing this I'm going to see in case this question over Labs will will put them to you all at once one

you in the book you do mainly kind of I know it's weird to say traditional because none of it traditional it's all relatively new process but kind of lower temperature much longer processes for you know you're at your blackened you know aliens in your black and fruit and I was wondering whether you've tested and rejected or just haven't played with like a lot of the shorter-term ones that like Johnny Hunter doing and Madison where he's doing was the first doing higher temperature and then beyond that pressure cooking black stuff and I know that all the flavors are different but I'm wondering whether you're testing it and while you're thinking about that color you had a question about black black end product what was it

this is Quinn from feces from Vancouver

my setup right now is a old rice cooker but I had a different sort of question

how cancer eating but I was wondering could you hear that question David or no. It was a bit choppy but I think I think how

How concerned should I be if the rice cooker shuts off for a day you got it in person to call me but you know you're sitting in the prime range for for pathogenic bacteria grow so it something cools down

so I can see how 45° and it's sitting at that temperature for like 8 hours if that's that's not there's there's no way it is to ensure its base fermentory

again probably could come in at grows in the ground anyway if there are spores they could make a very easily start to the kickoff so I'm not in the book making sure that it doesn't drop

so I would ensure that you know constantly like people who are cleaning wood, this was an early early days back when people weren't used to things cooking 424-4872 you know whatever next morning we like I can't live in the damn kitchen people you know what I mean like Don't Unplug my stuff and like so it got to the point where I would duct tape over all of the sockets you know what I mean because it's still occasionally some moron would be like I wonder what this tape is here for let me take the tape off and unplug this thing

I hate it I hate it so much like interrupted processes this is why I said no one doesn't anymore it's not even a problem anymore but early in the day I used to tell Philip press and I'll be like Phillip man can't you put the worst would be like I said I didn't trust anything I didn't need more because I've no one had the Data Logger yet there wasn't a data logging function in your car your standard thing and so like I was always nervous if there's some a hole unplugged my stuff for like 6 hours to plug in a vacuum machine or some crap you are or vacuum cleaner and then just plugged it back in and didn't say anything I didn't say no. I didn't do nothing you know what I mean so like I used to be worried about this constantly but I don't think it's a problem anymore because I think everyone knows now not to unplug the cooking equipment overnight you know what I mean one more quick question

responses about making sure that that is

sterile or there's no contamination or

no no no

cuz if you if you draw this was in the dragon Xbox with Cody and it stinks like Koji the probably on track

one of the really cool things that Japanese Koji Growers used to do or are managed to do is that they would they would select for for colorberry

and the idea that Cody is white is something that people have to do

what was the Mets get into like okay will breed it right so if anything else pops up will be able to see it will have a very strong visual cue

and will not let something unexpected and we can either talk about the bachelor start again

so if you ever see different colors pop up black green especially red or orange mold you know it's been infected but if your if your sports day pure and white

he doesn't look any other source

what's Aragon your kind of


the question was that doesn't shift or white to Green during the growth

there are some species to do that so there are some species that when they go to school or they go green

but if you are concerned about that find find it strange that grows white and you'll have it added layer protection that I didn't you

okay and your pillows you that don't mean for the few people I guess who are listening to those who don't know about thanks quick but for those who don't know that you know the basics of Koji your inoculating a substrate with an aspergillus species you know fungus and that is growing producing a lot of enzyme that then do many other awesome things care to elaborate David

everyone in East Asia came across basically the process of altering so so liberating the starches and Grains and beans

it's a white monkey do that you liberate sugars that cannot be formatted by using the alcohol so

in the pursuit of getting drunk we have Kodi in the world and starches but also on proteins

so you can break down meats and measles all sorts of pain in the in the behind if you friendzone a house or want anything to not get chewed up and eaten alive mean fungus they've developed a fungus that can break down anything that's why a lot of your enzymes that you buy commercial enzymes are grown from some form of fungus that has been found in a laboratory to produce a very high you know quantity of a particular enzyme all the enzymes I use are fungal reproduced

is that true no Activa meat glue is bacteria reproduce I think anyway fungus good at breaking things down that's what they do you know they're one of the very whatever so on aspergillus I'm very curious with something I've never tried using before and I didn't really know that much about is this this other aspergillus species that you use how you pronounce that loot loot loot wins this then makes a citric acid do you love it

I love it's my favorite thing on earth my favorite favorite things to grow I like I've never tried meth and feta means I'm told that if I had methamphetamines it would be really really bad ever I'm told that neon speed would be I do like fruit loops so you know when so I like everything to produce a citric acid you know what I mean I can't even that can produce citric acid like how much have you ever figure it out kind of like the Cleveland percentages that you can get if you're doing

if you didn't like how acidic can you get

then you have to deal with actually extracting it I need the grains went there for men

but if you want to like they translate into a stalk your off your you're obviously going to

be buffered a little bit the only give me able to get out so much of that went once you do it is still super delicious I want that I want to try that I want to try so I want to try and Koji that make citric acid that sounds like something I want you know what I mean so I love Gorham to a couple questions when people try your recipe so that you know we can get them kind of a mental note your squidguard I'm sure you had that this is a squid the asuri from Chicago right now if you ever tried that one that commercially-produced not it is freaking awesome I love it it's one of my two favorite commercially-produced a favorite commercially-produced fish sausage so I can't ask you how dead a ring are yours is for that because

you have that it can okay so fair that was one of my questions the other one was the grasshopper garm now I understand theoretically if people want to eat a bug protein yada yada yada I ain't never had a grasshopper where I was like you know what that was better made with a grasshopper than with anything else I have to say like is that have been made with anything other than a grasshopper it would have been not as good and what you're telling me in the book now here's the thing and you know I liked you know that the ant distillates and all that they're they're good but what I'm asking God's truth is the grasshopper Gorham just surprisingly good considering it's made with relatively flavorless grasshoppers or is it incredibly delicious product on its own ride that deserves to exist aside from the fact that you happen to making it from grasshopper would you ever choose it over a different substrate

yes yes it is it is one of the most popular for men at NoMa and it has been for a very very long time I'm taste test be like that's the one I want I'm just asking I'm just being a devil's advocate here the satisfaction of eating like shellfish

without the fishy flavor

that's what grasshopper Gardens accept its rosti and it's more media and it tastes it tastes almost like he's gone rather than the more kind of current fish sauce is that kind of just an omage to tipping your hat to bring it back to you you're up to doing something on the European side or I got a desire to not try to appropriate like like wholesale like a South you know you know Southeast Asian kind of condiment or what

yeah it's it's it's tough to say that a lot of sound and fish sauce like the dates that it only showed up in Southeast Asia in the way it's made today

after communication between the Roman Empire and China was established on the Silk Road I almost all of these kind of their very tenuous food histories you know what I mean and it's like super it's you know especially for someone who wants to dance like you look at Rice culture right and so it's it's now obvious decades new hundreds of years later that Rice was domesticated in parallel into separate at least at least two separate very different kind of places to separate domestication events at least write in Africa in Asia and so you know there are some things that you know have one place where they come from like chickens you know what I mean but don't you think it's much more likely that

everyone has salt and everyone's got extra weird fish lying around that it kind of just pain it happens you know

if you really think someone and I really think someone in Asia and needed some like you know like to think about it think about it this way not only right but if I handed you an amphora of Gaara right and say yo here's this Source we put it on everything you know what I mean and you be like cuz I did they put on everything it was like you have everything it was like they put that on more things that we put on catch up in the US right but it's like every damn recipe head garment you know why delicious people but the point is is that if I handed you a bottle of that you would have no idea how to make it right doesn't taste like its constituent Parts mean it's like vaguely kind of here but you wouldn't be like you know what I bet you the way to do this is to just take a bunch of fish and salt and throw it up it you know what I mean like you wouldn't think about it

it's like the idea that somehow Mastery of fish sauce comes via really just doesn't make any sense to me that's all

NFR Bob's Red Mill moment we're going to talk about amaranth and amaranth flour so a Marantz is a pseudo brain that is native to South America the tiny little thing in fact that you can pop it really well if you have the whole grain you can inscribe you can pop it and then mix in fact they make a whole series of candies Inc stocks remember the name like the one they make in Mexico with a honey in the amaranth flour it has a really nice taste I haven't figured out exactly what to use with 100% amaranth flour yet but I have substituted as much as I hate telling people to substituted into things like muffins and pancakes small amounts up to about 25% of amaranth flour in those recipes are nice and good and kind of a bit of a scientist to it a Marantz you know it's if you believe in health

it's people believe it's a healthy thing of course don't believe in hell if I care only about days but I still enjoy using amaranth flour Bob's Red Mill carries whole grain stone-ground amaranth flour go to use the code cooking issues 25 that's one word all caps cooking issues 25 or 25% off your order

every want to do another another car question

hi Dave Dave and Dave I have been trying to track down the recipe or some kind of clue about how to make Portuguese fermented hot sauce I know it's made these with a small.. Chili I know it's got some garlic in there and I know it has some kind of spirit of not wondering if either of you have seen anything or and putting me in the right track

Portuguese fermented hot sauce nothing nothing on my radar

and I just had a Portuguese intern with me for 3 months

and nobody I haven't I haven't heard much about that maybe you can call them up put it out

I'm not on Twitter I'm on Instagram. I loved him it was fantastic you will speak to him again someday

Bible speaking of questions we had off of the internet West Henderson Road in would you talk about this is for you David would you talk about the Aging meat they omitted in the book but the DIY cozy crowd is nuts about it disgust you don't really admit it you talk more about marinades not about aging it for long. Of time right

yeah that's because putting meat in an incubator freaks me up

they're not to make me feel uncomfortable so I didn't want to tell people what about some sort of middle of the road thing doing kind of refrigeration dry aging with already made kind of doing the marinade just for a long long long long long time how about that makes yokoji blend cozy with water and salt turn into a paste and then rub your meat down in that and leave it on for as long as you want how long have you gone now

that's what I was at the restaurant waiting for

maybe about 5 4 to 6 hours

and it really actually does help to tenderize the skin in the flesh

but you up you could you would make them mean extremely tender

but I think after a point you're you're not you know it's like a law of diminishing returns recipe with I forget what you added to it with the metal thing like I like buttermilk batter but I actually don't we not like it but it's not my choice to marinate for super long. And acid just cuz I think the Flesh of the chicken breaks down too much is it if it is at accelerated even more or using a harder chicken cuz American chickens are so so freaking $10 anyway. If you really if you do too much more kind of breakdown on an American piece chicken I mean suckers pulp you know what I mean now if you were going to do it on like you know an older chicken like a hand or maybe like you know the kind of chickens that you know I had when I was in Columbia or that you get it is just sometimes you know older stuff for chicken like maybe but

I don't know what you get in Copenhagen there are you getting like American style like hyper tender things are you getting tougher pieces of chicken

when you can actually get like factory farms Rock and Sand

but we haven't really surprised Chicken in Moana That was supposed to recipe that Renee came up with this is like a Back to Black fruit again while so go ahead

not so just just heading back to the Kodi on me a lot of this is centered around like rubbing your meat down

rice flour and then when you said that you just said rubbing your meat down to stassia gave me such a look and nobody was looking at me

some of those enzymes do kind of go through the other side of the layer of rice cake and leech in but it's not going to be anywhere near the same level of production or at least that you experience if it was growing on a completely Starkey substrate

so we've tested this in the lab you know it's only see one

it's it's this to me just making a face and rubbing your coach or rubbing the Cozy over the meat is a more effective safer and more controllable is actually getting some usefulness of the times I'm black and I don't like him or chest you're sticking with traditional or just curious

Shuffle Simon Davies on Instagram and he was recently posting about pyrolysis

which is the lesser of the thermal breakdown of matter that I cheat in the short amount of time

in the absence of oxygen

yeah garlic at those temperatures I find you'll end up getting those burnt flavors out of them both those kind of charred Akron notes and for me that's why that's 60 degrees for a really long time is it quite special I mean it's a hundred percent true is that you that no reaction is the same carried out in with you change almost any of the parameters of temperature time pressure water Everything Changes you know what I mean and so even though the same style of reaction is taking place you don't get the same flavors it's just a question of maybe they're not better or worse maybe they're different but you're thinking on something like garlic that you think it's worse to do the higher temperatures for shorter times

yeah in in a rare instances where you are from a different number has spiked up and jump I've always found that you do get these kind of like with this like burnt garlic flavor it may not be like over it mean if you like all this is like garlic it was stuck to the pan and it's gross but you do get that little like in the back of your mouth That Swing of it in one one one he's running with the high temp on the Crock-Pot he's running it take a couple of days and then I think in the pressure cooker he's doing like 16 hours I've never cooked garlic more than an hour and a half in the pressure cooker so I don't know you know what I mean

mean I know that shifting into pressure cooking range like drastically accelerate mayard reactions drastically

drastically but I'm too old to actually do the work anymore I want someone else to do the work and bring it to me when you're making your your shrimp I'm assuming you chose shrimp for one of the Right Guard me to shrimp shrimp gone I think one of the reasons you're doing that ass cuz it already comes with his guts in it right so you appreciate you just buy the whole thing easy peasy right and it's got lots of guys with lots of enzymes in it now isn't that the reason you started Cody doping a lot of your stuff because you were using things that didn't have a lot of endogenous enzymes in it yeah it it really came about what's up with the meat scraps with beef

any butcher shop will be like we're not telling you I was going to kill people and discovered that the shrimp shrimp lots of salt just let it go to room temperature for 4 month to month why no Farm Insurance is that just because you hit your hating on Farm shrimp or is there some actual technical reason the recipe won't work with Farm trip won't not work as a find the flavor to be lesser than you can get I mean I know it will get spoiled Copenhagen but you know one of the things about Warriors going into a grocery store and getting like frozen tiger shrimp from Thailand that chickenshit or whatever I don't think it's going to be

what is a shrimper raised in in Lolo salt situations

you know what I mean. You think that's why I think like it's like from the research to have done years and years ago you know one of the main issues with farm-raised far is farm-raised shrimp is that they're raised in kind of a kind of concrete pits at lower salinity levels and they're free amino acids and kind of like nice tasting as a shrimp is kind of directly one of the direct relationship it has is you know how much salt there was in in the environment which was living Sam with like that's right so you get like your your hybrid striper is one of the reasons they don't taste very good is because they're raising freshwater you know what I mean and no offense to freshwater fishing people but I mean most of the stuff that what comes out of the ocean taste better am I wrong about this

no I was completely agree you make a please say you moved away and no, almost entirely from long cook stocks and you call it a greasy smear like the old school gelatin race. That's pretty harsh language there you guys don't like you no more even find a place for it I mean like a cool present jelly caviar and that is a very very classic stock so it did it did make a comeback and there's no cozy in it she helps us to find the Finessin are raw ingredients in highlighter natural beauty without smothering it like adding a spray of Just Right lubricant to a creaky door rather than a sick

mayor of Greece hating on the gelatin-based ox just hating on them for me I can't use the wild but it bees do the things that I learned how to cook a 15 years ago and they do they they do taste of a time and they taste of a certain way and they do weigh you down and you know Renee is the final gatekeeper what actually makes it off the menu and you know one thing he is he is adamant about it that's like the flavors don't weigh you down here but nothing is like so incredibly heavy that you're like bog down in the middle of your meal things should be light and slow and then letter on the palate more than traditionally cook stocks so that's that's why that's part of the Mantra in the way of tired

argument with you about chaos theory and hand taste in consistency in the kitchen so for those of you that want you know that want to get into it in the section on the cover of the book is kind of him to stop but you didn't get to say it and stassi hates the word Sports Explorer explorers thing with a hand on the front cover right that's what's going on there that might know micro changes at the in The Cook's hand hand taste taste Taste of Coke taste of place right hand taste green-eyed antes but then you go into chaos theory and this is where I have a bone to pick with you but I don't have the time to pick it because no question but we'll do it again sometime the bone to pick is is that where the hell I like having an actual hand taste look there is a true statement that batch two batch you're going to get changes because you're not

play it 100% because things are wild but part of having a taste from the hand is at the hand does lens and consistency through practice right I mean that's the thing like you eat as a trained hand not like the random had you know what I mean not like that anyway I wish we had more time to talk about it because instead I have to ask you this last question on the way out and I don't know where to get one sometime you know when you're back in in New York sometimes it to see it coffee coffee and kombucha coffee show you and kombucha you make them with campgrounds I get it as a way to reuse ways but revelatory or just something to do to prove you can do it in and not waste a coffee grounds that being said we have tested so many different types of coffee and they are all different you will get fresh ground where you have a batch that shit and fresh ground so you'll have a shitload you'll be like holy crap

we were fortunate enough to have spent ground actually turned out really really good but you can't use fresh grounds trial and error will tell you what wrote the best what beans are best but it's it's it's surprisingly good with this cold feet method guide to fermentation out now it's a great we've been before you leave I have the my last question and I don't mean to blow up your spot but if you look at your Instagram which is David underscore zilber right that correct you look at your profile picture and you're also wearing this in your grub Street interview picture you have this Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat and I don't want to let you know you to give any secrets away but where do I get this coat this is a miraculous coat it's like an amazing free only one

no there's more than life occur sold out to be honest but it was made by a designer at the New York Bar shot

no it's a Dutch name but the s i e s m a r j a m on one of these coats and also had one

no of course not I didn't make the cold anymore too by the way I feel like it's like it's your coat so like if I wore it I'd be like you know kind of horning in on your cotinus

whatever GIF you can find the code if two days in the same jacket that's not that's not a Bad Thing by Justin Vision Say howdy

I have one thing ever one thing to say before we go I forgot to mention it if you if cooking issues listeners want to come to the gala they can use the code cooking issues for 10% off their ticket to go see you guys next week cooking issues

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