Cooking Issues Transcript

Episode 338: Blame It On the Liquid Nitrogen

this episode of cooking issues is brought to you by Bob's Red Mill and employee-owned company that has been offering organic stone-ground products for decades their flowers and whole grains of the highest quality and are minimally processed at their Stone Mill in Oregon is it Bob's Red Mill. Com to shop there huge range of products use cooking issues 25 for 25% off your order at all like in all the way around the noon time I would tell you no like just before 1 from Roberto's Pizzeria in Bushwick Lopez who by the way was here last week just hiding out in the booth

I do want you to know I saw him he's a having fun in DC I think he misses New York though wow love it it's just as nasty here as it is in DC right now from a from a whether there was

what is a good segue I'm completely bent over like stuff that I've learned over the past week John DeBerry calling your questions to 718-497-2128 that's 718-497-2128 machines last week this is not what I meant about he says he's planning on opening some may be one in New York so we can go van darling meet with you get meat out of the vending machine cuz you hate people anyway so it's like all the money that she knows cares it's just have to interact with that's like the best of all worlds for nastassia for me like I'm like like interacting with people trying to like yeah I just need this because you know anyone that knows me knows like I am at my rudest rudest but like most angry when I'm standing behind someone walking slowly it just bugs

so much it's like an hour to England which woman to give us a ride and I was so angry with me so angry now he's kept talking to her and talk to her about apples while we were on a trip to taste apples you moron why are you talking about this thing that you came all at you know you flew across an ocean to another continent halfway around the world so that you can taste apples and you don't have the balls you have the temerity you have the Hoodsport to talk to this lady about apples

first of all I warned you I'm bent so I don't know why are you like to go get your vent John DeBerry all right so abnormal trash people discussing so then because I'm normally at that point discussing things that are important to me like apples or like cheese but things like this but you know what I want I got to get out of here you know what I mean like you want to say so like you kind of want the both

oh yeah I was talking about that nastassia favorite pastime you don't like there's two reason she does the show one she cannot turn down free lunches she can't turn them back the other reason is he said she can gawk at people through the studio window at the at the crew here at Roberta that's the other reason that she doesn't

this morning text John DeBerry by the way is writing a book now about cocktails was or is I don't know that the beverage director Mama Fu's why don't know his title I don't know for many many many years was it PDT excetera excetera a Bart a bartending man-about-town that's to say send me a tweet this morning send me a link to a Washington Post article where everyone is going freaking ape over a dragon's breath the dragon's breath not dragon's beard the pull handle tight ends of the only Nick Wong who is of Chinese extraction can use a stereotypical voices in a way that is socially acceptable

never fails to try to get me to be inappropriate but it never fails to try always fail to succeed anyway that kind of thing a hundred percent she's always feels like she can get me to Cross lots of other lines there lots of other lines across anyway I believe you were thinking of our favorite punching bag and now father anyway anyways to John DeBerry since missing people getting like up in arms about dragon's breath which is where you take something low in a low and moisture like that the classic thing is marshmallows you put them in liquid nitrogen and then you freeze them down to liquid nitrogen temperatures you put them in your mouth while they're still stream cold and when you exhale you get all this condensation Cloud so it looks like your kind of blowing smoke right and I see you've done it many times we've done it a million times like at Harvard or a

that done it with children have done it without alternate side of my right side marshmallows like connection so these people aren't using marshmallows they're using what amounts to crunch berries you know crunch berries East Asia like you know that did you know that the Captain Crunch Corporation because everyone likes crunch berries so much snot Capricorn Corporation the brand which is what General Mills who owns Captain Crunch they have a box now called oops all berries where she loves as Booker obviously oops all berries looks like me so the they take it they threw some liquid nitrogen and they serve it to youngsters at state fairs the youngsters put it in their mouth and then they blow out smoke not a couple of problems with crunch berries as opposed to marshmallows

I don't know if you've ever and ever you can Captain Crunch shreds inside your mouth it's it's like eating tiny micro planes like so first of all when it's that cold you're probably reducing the sensation of it excoriating your mouth so I wouldn't choose crunch berries or similar cereal as a thing but what you do need to choose is something that slow and moisture because as anybody that is heard me yell about this before things that are extremely dry and contain a lot of are simply don't have enough energy stored in them to damage your to damage your tongue right so if I took an ice cube or any sort of water based substance Frozen down to liquid nitrogen temperatures and put it in my mouth that is like like totally toast with my timer but a marshmallow which is air and has very very little water has an extremely low a low thermal mass in the low specific heat me to get can't really do too

much to my tongue one way or the other so that it's a fun party trick to take the marshmallow stick in your mouth but right now it's true that I like this kind of technique was brought by that kind of Spanish wave of the Spanish Armada of chefs that you know became so popular here LOL worldwide really but you know well known in the states in the early 2000s and back in those days I was served something with too much water that have been put in liquid nitrogen buy a Spanish chef and it blew out my tongue for the whole evening I was real pissed I couldn't taste anything but no permanent damage anyway so

nothing in particular has happened but yet everyone is is completely up in arms about this because they say is dangerous I'll give you a couple of headlines and John Barry brought this to my attention this morning I'll give you a couple of Headlines by this is by the New York Post which you know Public Enemy Public Enemy the rap group famously said in 1991 founded in 1801 by Alexander Hamilton that's a hundred and eighty years of continuous effed-up news news America's oldest continuously published daily P Cynthia us to use our presidents turn out that is not my opinion and public enemy when we first started taking on the Taliban couples I I mean that's a freaking great headline

Pawn blaming other one you think the guy and I have some person who they only calling this person when something happens and they need a headline so it like 2 a.m. you have 2 or 3 a.m. something happened oh my God we just we just bomb the table with the Taliban Rays out of any like rouse out of any deep sleep give him at given what happened and this person that's a good pun such a good punched her I got you the book of New York Post headlines and they are amazingly good I can't remember all of them would like to poop to Pope when Cardinal ratzinger you know now.

open did he go back to being ratzinger anyway when he gave up being Pope too pooped to Pope

the pope right back to sleep cuz this person doesn't need a second shot they come right out with the pun anyway so I love the post for that if not for their editorial content so here's what they say you know if the pope via post

dragon's breath liquid nitrogen cereal is the latest deadly Trend by Natalie O'Neill this was a couple weeks ago or a couple of the last week in July and a July 31st know if I'm wrong but for a trend to be deadly what's the one thing that needs to happen

yes in order for something to be deadly somebody needs to die and guess what has not happened but you were not such a good headline dragon's breath liquid nitrogen cereal may be somewhat dangerous

write me to the latest daily Trend and then and then the first line don't get burned by a trendy liquid nitrogen dipped cereal dub dragon's breath get this that can make your mouth and internal organs so ridiculous I'll go to the Washington Post which has a longer still very heated but not quite as bad gal read from the tram at the Washington Post owned by distancias good friend Jeff Bezos bodily harm in eating Tide Pods and they were jumping out of moving vehicles to dance to the new Drake song by the way she has a SpaceX hat on

or giving themselves frostbite by spraying an entire can of deodorant on their skin and now they're eating dragon's breath snack made with liquid nitrogen they can burn your mouth or cause respiratory distress if ingested incorrectly it should not surprise you to learn that teens are ingesting incorrectly result

like the reporting here is just straight false and dumb here's what it says... Later on in the article you can look it up on the Washington Post issues I guess the 7th which is that today that's because when a person's skin or tissue comes into contact with liquid nitrogen according to the South Florida sun-sentinel by the way the south Florida sun-sentinel well known for their scientific reporting did you know that Dave

oh yeah definitely if you have a question on science or safety you're going to want to go to the South Florida sun-sentinel for the answer they actually quote the south Florida sun-sentinel on this fact liquid nitrogen can cause serious burns the skin caused deadliest fixation if inhaled by the way if it's okay it's liquid Me by inhaling what they mean is if you if you put yourself in a pure night nitrogen environment you will die right away if you fail engine damage site and it splashes or gets rubbed into the eyes I now have an image of Nastassja holding me down and rubbing liquid nitrogen into my eyes somehow just a liquid which inherently doesn't want to stick to me and somehow she is able to rub it into my eyes as though it's some sort of Greece mirror erised shops that sell it post warnings but they're not always hated so

it goes on to say that in October a 14 year old girl was sent to the hospital after touching the liquid nitrogen in the snack at the Pensacola Interstate Fair the ER doctor had to cut the thumb open put away the dead skin and get the infection out the girl's grandmother told a local ABC affiliate they have said had we not come in and got her finger treated she could possibly have lost her thumb and here's what happened this is the Washington Post quoting the Sun Sentinel quoting ABC news coverage of a local ABC affiliate quoting the grandmother quoting the ER physician about this girls touching the liquid nitrogen right now so it's like that is the level and this this quote cycle has happened multiple times so here's what happens people liquid nitrogen is used on purpose by dermatologist on The Daily to freeze warts and such not on your skin

okay okay okay if someone improperly did this and left liquid nitrogen in a cup and this little girl grabbed hold of the cut by the way I've seen pictures of a cup of cups are plastic so they're not inherently dangerous in the way metal is because plastic also has a low speed low specific heat low thermal Mass so you probably would feel that it is cold in time to drop the cup I just remember someone myself who who on the regular put my hand into liquid nitrogen splashed on me on a daily basis okay if you pick up briefly touch a plastic cup your hands will register this oh cold release now if this little girl has the the the the awesomeness to be like I'm not letting go of my freaking dragon's breath candy it's possible that she could get frostbite on your finger

I've gotten like frostbite on my hands from extended contact with metal containers much more dangerous very easy to get a lot of frostbite with a metal containers and liquid nitrogen and that's happening to the worst I've ever had this is someone who gives it on a daily basis daily daily basis was I lost feeling in my thumb for about 9 3/4 days so let's say that she does have some sort of like localized bad contact burn from the liquid nitrogen which I feel bad about that shouldn't have happened that was an incorrect operator right so the grandmother saying that his wife so inaccurate the grandmother says that the kid has an infection there's no such bacteria on Earth that says hey yo a little girls got like some frostbite on her finger let's have an infection happen in the time it takes grandma to get her to the ER right so like there's clearly and I'm not trying to say anything I thought clearly the grandma was freaked out the kid had a problem kids

we are not disputing any of this with the language built around it somehow she had an infection due to this and that her thumb with you're going to get lost who knows what the doctor said to the grandma with the grandma said to the ABC local affiliate who has been quoted by the Sun Sentinel which then goes into the magisterial Washington Post right and then then another thing in winter it's always Florida nastassia in Late July a mother and her in St Augustine Florida took her son to the ER after the mission of the way that this is written took her son to the ER after the dragon's breath here is triggered triggered me when I read it but I triggered a massive asthma attack Inside Edition is for their coding here spoke with a young man who is an introvert

burn the inside of his mouth until it bled all right now down to Inside Edition so I went and Captain Crunch which is why you should put some milk on that freaking thing to self it up otherwise you're here you're taking sandpaper to the inside of your freaking mouth by the way I've eaten kiwis until my mouth lid right and no one's like oh my God or like you know the Warhead Challenge working for any more head until their mouth please because I can see me so much acid no one's like to read both the sun sentinel's coverage of the local ABC affiliate which I've already gone into a by the way I don't even think she spoke to the ABC think the grandmother told Facebook the stories were looking at a Facebook through like ABC got the story through Facebook

oh my God here's the one with that with auto this is the asthma 10 K St Augustine mother goes on Facebook tells how her son John try the treat at a kiosk inside the Avenues Mall in Jacksonville Florida

he has mild asthma she said but on the 40 minute drive home he started coughing uncontrollably and had trouble breathing so here's a little bit of it I'm sure you guys have heard of this post hoc Ergo propter hoc right after this therefore because of this lady shows up at the Avenues mall with her son Johnny says Johnny's like she gets in this thing Johnny has mild asthma now keep in mind it's the summertime and Johnnies in St Augustine Florida you think maybe that causing the asthma anyway 40 minute drive home and who knows what kind of air condition car after I've been to the Mall of America by what happens is the kid has an asthma attack right eye and he goes to the nearest fire station and fire station paramedic stabilized right so the mother is like you know what must occur

is that asthma attack nastassia

dragon's breath obviously because it's the only new thing I saw today the kid I was that Johnny right I had asthma would go into uncontrollable asthma attacks when I was a child of seeing anything new because I grew up in the 70s when there was nothing new but bell-bottoms the number of times this is in the days before inhalers I would have to go to the hospital and get jacked up on epinephrine you think I'm going crazy now you should have seen me when I was jacked up on epinephrine as a freaking nine-year-old in like 1979 or 1980 right right that is a kid that's all jacked up and bent out of shape right so a little bit of

The Washington Post as dragon's breath causes asthma so as we can see are there dangers to liquid nitrogen yes is anything that was written in this article true know and it just goes to show that I mean that one girl's finger was burned I'm sure right that's possible and probable like the cut like that like imputing all these dangerous to the snack Ron some guy on whatever it was like instant jerk YouTube or whatever it was like his mouth bleeds after he eats like 18 boatloads of oops all berries they've been frozen to liquid nitrogen temperature plausible Tommy Berry's right John Tavares on the berries and then you know kid has asthma attack I understand how scary it is to have an asthma attack as someone who was hospitalized multiple times with asthma as a child it's super scary but to blame it on the liquid nitrogen just nothing about that up so we have just a whole bunch of garbage is being pause wine but you know he's going to

payforit anyone out there cooking with or using liquid nitrogen or frankly anyone doing anything new or or Innovative or interesting at all because when the Essex right it's the people doing the new stuff they get hosed the hardest let's go take a commercial break and come back with more to being angry

it's time for our Bob's Red Mill moment where we put nastase is cooking improvisational skills to the test this week secret ingredient is organic which one we going to do here. Bob's Red Mill has various different oats have your standard flaked oats or steel-cut oats right so.

Okay so as we all know steel cut oats are the ones that still look like oats they haven't been flaked out they take longer to cook they got more texture than your regular flaked oats all right just tell us what you make oatmeal for 1 wow that's super interesting you know people this is what I have to work with so steel cut oats are good if you want to maintain I like traditional texture of steel cut oats it's not the kind of standard owed that you get but I think it's a very good it's a very good changeup two kinds of flaked oats and steel cut oats are also very good in recipes like scrapple or in like a traditional a haggis kind of a situation where you want them to absorb moisture over a long. Of time I like him a lot they's good base to Bob's Red Mill for supporting cooking issues visit Bob's Red Mill. Com to shop there huge range of products use the code cooking 25 for 25% off your order that's cooking no space the number

the number 5

and we're at those are paying for it yeah yeah whatever

goodnight you like she's like you're cramping my plants do you like oatmeal for 1 Min Pin my plans watching Bachelorette with the girls anyway I have nothing to do with the bar please don't ask me for reservations I only drink for free she doesn't for free that is a comment about poggi asking us about a poggi and stocks and clarification I called in our resident coyote expert are cook Quest Richie and he is not he's not been able to get his expert on this particular thing so Darren hopefully will get you your information soon should I do the anguish I do the question question then anger question first then I'll see if I can get I got to mellow out and then get wound back up later that's good right otherwise it take too much blood pressure too much anger and it's just me up

today rights in so this is a question about by the way about pickles right so for those of you that have not lived or like don't exist on the planet Earth like a pickle Zara means not only to make something delicious but to take something that is you know in season or right now and preserve it for later so you can have your sweet pickles you can have your lactic acid pickles you can have your vinegar pickles blah blah blah answer this question is a question of user listener asked us about chefs chefsteps.com their pickling recipes okay

how do I go low on sugar acid and temperature everyone wants to go low on all that right because they want a pickle but they want something that's as close to the original product as possible Right This Is by the way this is how a lot of traditional things like cam right how dry cured ham has gotten muted mutated into kind of City hands because as technology improves people tend to want things with less of a cure dry dinner whatever how low can I go on when home canning fruit while still having a safe product I'm a big fan of chefsteps sous-vide a pickling recipes and techniques and I use it regularly for vegetables vegetables my family doesn't love the taste of a vinegar based sweet brine for fruit and I've been looking for a lemon juice paste alternative

straight up Southern lemon for vinegar would be safe whilst true because lemon juice what happened about the pH but the actual like acidity levels are in the same rate I don't actually know the pH of vinegar 5% vinegar but I it would be too acidic and overwhelmingly flavored I won't second-guess Douglas Baldwin's calculations on the parameters of the brine which is a brakes of 38 meaning out of every kilo of Brian 38r 380 grams of that would be sugar the balance water and a pH of 3.2 by the way Douglas Baldwin is a professor of mathematics is somewhere in Colorado at least was the last time I saw him and he he did a lot of the early calculations where he kind of Salve simplified versions of Sweet of the differential equations involved for sous vide cooking and his initial calculations are what a lot of the Sudi calculators that you find on you know on the App Store on the internet are based on so there's a long history

in doing the math and actually figuring out what's going on in food safety and in sous vide cooking in general he he partnered with Nathan myhrvold back in the mountains Cuisine days and it's working with chefsteps at the time so he knows what he's talking about when it comes to this time but it seems to me it was meant to be safe and I was meant to be safe regardless of the relative proportions of fruit to brine and the size of the produce that you use which makes sense when a publishing a recipe for a mass audience but I assume it can be tweaked a bit I'm not an expert but I know my way around a logarithm so you basically he's just shooting for is giving a bunch of parameters which I won't give you here because they're going to bore you to bore you to tears probably and you probably forget them other should I use the time wisely

I want you know what so basically he's with the point that David is trying to make right is that you guys going to increase the pH write it to get it just into the levels where it's safe right she's going to try to get a 3.4 pH Brian by and a certain brakes level I forget what he was shooting for but he's going to get a certain brakes level by actually calculating how much fruit that he's going to add right and what the pH of the Bride is going to be in trying to figure out the equilibrium between the fruit and the Bryant right so the argument here is is that you overdo the brine because the fruit that you add to it is assumed to have a pH you know it basically be a ph of 7 neutral which is not true they're almost always acidic and have no sugar which is also almost not true, so is not true and if you're adding a whole bunch of Brian Wright imagine you added you know one gram of fruit to a kilo of Brian obviously that Grandma fruits

can I push the pH one way or the other so he's arguing that by controlling these things better you can make a safe product so rather than me second-guessing chest apps I called Chris we played a bunch of phone tag he graciously got in touch with Charlie saw the food scientist at chefsteps and Douglas Baldwin and they got back to us with an answer so I will read it to you we put our heads together that is Charlie Shawn Douglas Baldwin. It is right he can reduce the acidity on the brakes and still make a safe product what he may be compromising on as he reduces is he reduces the shelf life especially at room temperature the shelf life should be fairly long in the fridge shelf life is awfully hard to predict and may depend on the fruit veg spices used the work space where he's working eccentric cetera

the Bryan and David A Pose only bring the water activity down 2.95% that's not enough to help too much when it comes to shelf life so shelf life is important and you like a lower level of sweetness you should see if you want to lose sweetness you should increase the amount of time you're cooking it because he only wants to cook it at 75° Celsius hear another thing when you're cooking something this is the multiple hurdle effect so you have one hurdle is temperature right so you're cooking something to a specific temperature to kill bacteria some of that bacteria is harmful and some of that bacteria just reduces the shelf life you're also increasing the city because the acidity lowering the pH is a hurdle that bacteria have to jump over to start multiplying you're also increasing decreasing the water activity by increasing the sugar so that is also inhibit the bacteria multiple levels of inhibition so there's any bishan to make products safe and is intubation to stop spoilage I increase improve the Shelf light at the final equilibrium 85°

they recommend 85 degrees Celsius for 2 minutes at the Brian that are there for a little bit but he wants you to 75 the reason to 85c is used for these vegetables 85c is where the government publishes the curves of how things are all or at least we're chefsteps has their curves of how bacteria get killed at 85c cook for a long time pack and we'll break down and pectin breaks down calcium I think you said I didn't want you to add calcium to strengthen the pectin so they're 85c you're not getting any pectin softening but you don't want to add calcium because of flavor issues right you don't want to cook it 85c because you're worried about softening it you can drop at the 75c especially if you had a little calcium and not get no radical softening of the pectin in fruit and vegetables however when you're when you're killing things right first of all you have to measure the core temperature which you can't possibly know unless you have a rig you've tested with the forehand right so you need to know how long you're cooking the poor

side the inside of your jar right so let's say you have something that 85° C of a thermal a deaf person you're looking for a certain D level is a d level is 1 d means that I've killed 90% of the bacteria that are involved so then you do that again you reduced by a factor of 10 Taggart and Taggart and so a lot of people just bought a Cadillac Throw Some D's on it anyway so you want about a v d which is like a V log log reduction and here's the other problem when you shift that thermal occur right when you're no longer looking at 85 is it called a z level and the sea level is how fast that thermal curve shoots up or down one log level so so Douglas Baldwin and you know she saw it as Tsum that most bacteria that you're looking at have a zeila A-Z number of roughly between five and ten degrees so he wants to cook

something that's 10 degrees below the recommended temperature the temperature they have a curved for so let's say that the Z is 10 that means it's 75° C it takes 10 times longer to get the same level of bacterial death so if it was one minute at 85 or 2 minutes 85 going to be 20 minutes right but equally valid / might be 5 so every 5 degrees lower you are 10 you know a factor of 10 longer which case would take two hundred minutes right so in order to be safe at those levels at 75° C with those lower numbers you have to cook it for a much longer time on the order of a hundred times longer write and sulfate if that's acceptable to you that's fine just be aware that when you're looking at Z values you can't keep going on down Infinity there's a certain point at which bacteria begin dying and only then are Z values only actually even further up into that curve they become valid because you can continue in lowering 10° and all the sudden you're in a bacterial growth zone so is he values only

work for like one or two Z levels not for infinite sea levels maybe they work for one or two where in the purview hit and let her know you got time for a quick call actually I was just wondering if you could that you would recommend and I don't have any Ethiopian cookbooks and therefore I cannot recommend them but now you've made me think I cannot believe that I don't have any Ethiopian cookbooks I have recipes with Ethiopian I have books with Ethiopian recipes in them but I have no a hundred percent Ethiopian cookbook I'm sure they're out there now it is been at least ten years since I last looked for them at least 10 and so it's been 20 years

since I've lived in a neighborhood that had you know a huge density of Ethiopian restaurants such that I was eating Ethiopian food once or twice a week back then in the late nineties their word to my knowledge no Ethiopian cookbooks around there where you know Jessica Harris had to go to the oven recipes in it but there were no Ethiopian cookbooks was only recently liked the past maybe 10 years that we've had like a recipe books that are exclusively let's say Senegalese food I'm sure they're there now and I feel incredibly embarrassed I don't have one at the at the tip of my tongue I'll ask Peter Peter came to spend a lot of time in Ethiopia because his wife was posted there at the UN I'm sure he would know and I'll get I'll definitely get that information up and either put on Twitter or talk about it next week I mean I love Ethiopian food means you'll be in food is so awesome did you have any that you have that you don't like

I know I just moved to a neighborhood with a lot of Ethiopian cuisine and my rent went way up and so I'm looking at making you like more like 1.

I have not but that's something that I heard is very challenging to do people say sounding I've never tried it I don't know I mean that the thing is it that the grain the grain that makes in jira one of the Grand and make the most people don't do it Steph Mercedes test read right so by the way don't you Bob's Red Mill most people do not do a hundred percent tap in jira so tough is sourdough so depending on how sour you want it what's it called when I got the name is one of my head that Karen works for up in I born at up in Opera catch Hopper kitchen they do a hundred percent in jira Taft it's real Sour that I know I like but most of the you know most of the injury that I used to get in my old neighborhood was not like hyper sour so you don't feel as you that never had Ethiopian cuisine it's kind of like imagine

cross between a large floppy crepe and kind of like a crumpet right cuz it's got the bubbles on the one side it's floppy kind of like a Crepes it's not like crispy like a dose in that way it's fantastic but that to me like I would worry about that get some tap and think about that I'm sure online there's a bunch of people who I've had in years. How are you are you more interested in just the mains or do you add me into me Ethiopian food without injera is like is like nastassia without hatred

you know I mean it wasn't worth a try to find some cookbooks and if not I have some suggestions and what will will answer that next week and I'll get to my anger about Ziploc bags and reduced oxygen packaging and the New York City Department of Health I'll reserve my anger for next week so you can stay tuned for more anger if you tune in next week on cooking issues thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network food radio supported by you for a freshest content and to hear about exclusive events subscribe to our newsletter and to your email at the bottom of our website Heritage Radio Network. Org connect with us on Facebook Instagram and Twitter at Heritage underscore radio Heritage Radio network is a nonprofit organization driving conversations to make the world a better Ferrer more.

Alicia's place and we couldn't do it without support from listeners like you want to be a part of the food world's most Innovative Community rate the shows you like tell your friends and please join our community by becoming a member just click on the Beating Heart at the top right of our homepage thanks for listening