Cooking Issues Transcript

Episode 327: A Tongue-Driven Response

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Pizzeria in Bushwick

no way I know why nothing on the FaceTime Community weekend by the way next week no show I mean I'm in China

China again we're on break so so that's convenient working on the next the next Booker and Dax product which I cannot tell you about because I cannot possibly kill all three people that are listening to this yeah well they have to go find them I got nastase the hammer Lopez how you doing how's your how's your week been fine by your flight in a minute in a minute. You have a lot of things to talk about today so for those of you that don't know LaGuardia Airport is nice airport to fly into even though it's horrific and cramped and terrible because once you get in you're close to being back in the Manhattan you're not like in the middle of nowhere

problem is as I said many times if someone even spit the runway in LaGuardia they shut that thing down so like I'm flying back from Chicago yesterday and I was doing some for Heaven Hill distilleries have fun in Chicago and I'm like we're going to go to the 6 a.m. cuz it was raining I'm going to go cuz I know they playing into going to let the 6 a.m. playing in so we take off and then we get her and all of a sudden like around like 8 right before we're about to land a thunderstorm moved in over New York right and so what are these chumps do they Circle LaGuardia and by the way air traffic controllers if I have anyone out there is no traffic controller you were a sadistic lot you were sadistic son of a guns out there have a circling in the class in the rainstorm just like like like waiting because again like I've never Mike Pence like you know the airplane like looks at the runway sideways mix kids off into the into the water right so

we shouldn't look like an hour like going around then there like a

well they wouldn't let us never to JFK they wouldn't last of her to new work so we're going to Philadelphia by losing gas gas literally as we land situations meal and my wife by the way I hate flying as we land my wife text me she's like she's like good news it's starting to clear up in New York and threw it on the ground and wait to refuel and then we get delayed even more because obviously because they say so they had to reopen it later and we had to get a new slide so I thought I was going to get a whole work day is done on the bar yesterday and instead I spent it in the fabulous travels we had to get off because they no longer knew who was on the airplane cuz they let some people off but didn't take down their information so everyone had to leave the plane is like standard TSA operating procedure and then come back right back on

flying I got my doctor to prescribe me Lorazepam it's it's like a I think it's similar to like Xanax stuff off of it but I'm thinking of doing is just some flying to China on Monday and the worst is like if it's in 1 hour flight although can turn into a 3-hour flight if you're you know by mistake what if it's like you're like you're like a I'm going to take it for the whole time because whatever like how bad can it be I can I can just sit there and and have that awful fear sweat for like a couple of hours and I know it's going to be over one way the other I'm going to go to the ground or not it's a smaller plane probably if it's only an hour or two hour flight yeah But but when you're when you're flying to China and you have conceivably another 14 hours write your mind is like this could last 14 hours being and also you know if you're in the middle of the damn plane and you have no Windows 8 me in the middle of the plane with no windows because

outside you're like okay I can see at least that were on fire and we're going down at least I know you don't even use sealed in that tube it's like anyway we have on the show today's special guest my Segway yes special guest talking about his new book we have what we were when you were supposed to come on a recently James briscione that's the way he likes to pronounce although could be pronounced any one of eight different ways his new book flavor Matrix and you're also at The Institute for culinary education title over their director of culinary research has directions

I got us how you doing James excellent in all of your flavor Matrix flavor pairing questions to James at 718-497-2128 that's 718-497-2128 and I want you to tell us a little bit about what to get people like the 32nd pick on the book here so I've been studying the signs of labor for a really long time the whole project began back of ice when we were working with IBM on the chef Watson project and we started to get into flavor pairing Theory tell me why so if anyone missed Chef Watson it is we work with IBM there watching him getting system to study chemical compounds in Foods and find matches between ingredients based on the chemical compounds that create flavor in food so kind of a new way to look at putting ingredients together Matthew question why they give it a dude's name I was told was a woman

like I'm sorry there are some gender-neutral they couldn't could have gone Pat and then like what is Pat I don't know they glued at that face on it the voices that Watson uses when he's being a prick to those people the airplane Hangar is a dude's voice is very 2001 Space Odyssey kind of a thing about the coffee maker in that other thing he's using a dude's voice and making like is it I think he was I think he was a little Saucy with the coffee maker and that's why she's not talking to them but my point is why I do. Seems like you know what I should work on that next time you're with them they should just you know what I know it's actually just a computer and not at not a human being so they could just you know Rene madore come out that the next-gen should definitely a woman I thought it was we walked in and open up a laptop and work okay

conversations with Watson it was a laptop if you're out there next-gen woman or at least gender-neutral Taylor's Taylor Swift write I have a really good story about the show that I'm not allowed to tell you I'm doing well I can't tell you what's the story from there he got part of that now I'm saying about a bit like one of the episodes get had like a me-too moment where they had to get like a Christopher Plummer Style reshoot on it and because they had to they had to remove one of the characters and add somebody else in and I really think that what they should do first of all I think in a show about like billionaires they should just admit if you're watching a show about people who are rancid power bi

hungry like billionaires why should you get pissed off when the people who are actually in it are rough to I mean that's what you kind of want out of it no but they had they did the reshoot I think in general they should just not reshoot and just take Christopher Plummer space and then no matter who it is just paste his face over it as I get as a thing what do you think

set a 30-second pitch on the book is an A&A I program that takes a big data crunchers it and then makes predictions in your case about food but it could be about whether or not you need to replace an engine or how much water you need to add to your crops in XYZ field Aryana Aryana or make the make yada yada yada yada so that got me kind of into the subject but the book was written without any use of Watson we'd spent all her time in the volatile volatile compounds in food database the VCF database that list every aromatic compound in the majority of ingredients on Earth and those are all of the chemicals that are responsible for flavor in food it is I mean it's it's a paid subscription database

yeah so it's been about two years in the vfc creating spreadsheets finding the matches they do actually have a nice little compared and search tool and we adopted the name of the wine or beer coffee flavor wheel like tasting wheel and adapted it to food and then we had created data points for every Aroma in 58 the most common ingredients * 58 ingredient categories of about 110 total ingredients listed as a really want to dig into the science and get nerdy the top three Aroma compounds in each ingredient the flavors they present so it's hopefully for the other people who'd start digging into it it's a new way to think about flavor and combining ingredients of people people that haven't seen the book The Format is an introduction of like you know how you got into this stuff and then just hear of these ingredients the wheels for those ingredients and then a recipe that has the

main ingredient and then with other a drunk that are pulled off of the wheel and then at the end kind of a little more here you know a little more in-depth on some of the actual things right so it's like just what you need to know to figure out why I'm doing this the stuff and then some more explanation at the end that's the basic layout if you want to just put it up for some ideas about hey I got a boatload of zucchini in my CSA and I want to do something different with zucchini and Russ are changing up some recipes for zucchini pairing we only you'll see which flavors pair best with zucchini and start picking out ingredient zucchini pairs best with the garbage can

boy skinny zucchini is a garbage product here's a big zucchini is good here's a king is good for if you core it and therefore take out all of that like moisture inducing nonsense and stuff it with meat that taste good if you take zucchini and you press the press the hell out of it so it doesn't turn into a greasy sobbing mess of nightmare and then somehow quickly cook it fine it's not even a good vehicle for dip because it's too freaking spongy you would always always rather have a cucumber than a freaking zucchini stick in a dip situation 100% of the time why would it ever be in a dip situation people do it people do it right and then like the reason zucchinis exist as a product that all is zucchini bread is delicious

where it's really just it's just a filler but it's on the list and the other reason it exists is a squash blossoms because flor de calabaza let's face it is awesome absolutely don't know and I'm sure that's a lot of people is that if you just take it so that they took the group of the group of things that includes pumpkin squash cucumber zucchini is a cucurbit right and they all have these kind of big showy papery flowers that look like Squash Blossom but they have very different tastes so like some like pumpkin blossoms for instance I thought that I could use these just because you want to get rid of a lot of the extra blossoms because you don't want any don't want too many pumpkins on your Vine anyways they taste terrible like you need to get like good ones like the Bridals in Port anastacio is a cognoscenti of squash blossoms

well yeah true story it is true story so go ahead and write exactly but so if you can just flip over flip-open you look at the graphic and go oh you're the best things that go with zucchini or if you want to really dig into him like I got to figure out a way to use this and go back look up the compounds that create a little bit of flavor there is actually in zucchini and then you started talking at that waited to try to find the best matches or try to get creative with it for now for just over a month now I'm hearing from a ton of a mixologist people who are really kind of digging in and and using it to get creative with cocktails which isn't which has been really cool as I love I love people who sling drinks

it was late for some reason to punch so you can look it up anyways bones. Bones to pick but we're going to we're going to have some stuff out you and I James and then after that we have a more General hash out that I think it's going to be kind of like fun for our crew the color to call the first caller ID on the air

oh yeah hello friend actually falling in Vancouver Island

yeah I came up with a question answer I will take question first and then answer

my question was

complexity is an excellent question and I'm going to let James go and then I'm going to argue with him go so there is a lot and I mean complexity you can kind of look at that a couple different ways but I mean the the simplest way we just need to quantify the number of different aromatic compounds that make up each ingredient that's in the DCF that's exactly what you're going to get you you get a full list of I'd the compounds that have been identified through most of the data in the BCS comes from academic papers so it's you know there's been a gas chromatography study done on kind of General tea or general wine there's not a lot on wine because it changes year-to-year to year so it's hard to it's really hard to kind of collect that data and drop it

building recipes based off of compounds in specific one of the generals of the varietals the cat pee Aroma is Excedrin but to I would have to I'd have to check the numbers I don't know if the top of my head I believe that t is higher than Wine in the number of compound eye here's where it got here's where I think this is problematic right everyone everyone wants to say that whatever product their Hawking at the time is the most complicated or like it goes back to the we are like the people who say we have the most vitamin C we have the most number of compounds the most the most polyphenols we have the most in the thing is is at the end of the day complexity doesn't boil down to how many different compounds are are in something because to be honest a lot of things can be there in my new quantity is it don't have a huge flavor impact and also it'll most compounds have on

the order of less than 10 things in them that provide the majority of the aroma impact the volatile impacted something is going to have so you know to me I think rather than looking at the chemical signature so I can see how complicated it is look at how people have treated it over the years so like people tend to focus on simple ingredients with wide range has a flavor things like T wear if you know one ingredient to with water you know why because they are complicated right and they repay study until like actual complexity in terms of what your mind and tongue She has as much to do with the scholarship behind it and how much people pay attention to it 50 years ago there was not nearly the vocabulary on coffee even among professionals that there is now and the reason is is that kind

that human beings hadn't built up the kind of scholarship so we sent complexity and coffee that the average even professional I think would have sent to 50 years ago and it's because we've developed the language to be able to do it so complexity is somewhat in the eye of the taster I think you take a sip and then you might send certain things and then they tell you oh hey you know cucumber Blackberry these things in black pepper these things are here and you taking us at me now for these particular aromaz are flavors and something I didn't they absolutely become easier to find you not you but one as kind of a lazy taster like taste something and then you later read something that bat that backs you up that is kind of nice to me when you're like yes there is this compound you like he knew I knew I was right I knew it all right so what's your name what's your

answer when I remember thinking I think I'm going to wait to do that it seems like they were stealing more toward or talk to 19 base gel what if you combined drunk

Logitech computer cheap synthetic family show also I will say that someone else mention which I have also noticed is that people in oculate dried fruit not hyper dried fruit but like are dried or semi drive-thru specifically things like Japanese persimmon or Korean persimmon inoculate them with mold and they do when you want to trim off the mold have a different flavor and actually notices by accident so let's in Persimmons go mouldy and I was like I'm not going to waste them aside from them off and and and and had them so I think if we can maybe try that Quinn or I think somebody's mold inoculations on larger format dried fruits not like thinner ones

larger format dry fruits like belated Persimmons are what not to not good with molding get some color was as you said I think he wanted more

glad you could have said he wanted more sweet stuff and so like on the Savory side that's that's all about protein breakdown products it's 100% about protein breakdown products and Batman

right but like Mirren also has it a Savory hit to it that don't actually know where it comes from let me run has a Savory Savory hit to it but when I think Caso boochi I'm thinking a hundred percent like broke protein breakdown right when I think of cheap friends whenever I'm tasting something old issue I'm always tasting for it's all breakdown products situation so when you taste of cheese right like certain cheeses I can taste and know their full fat because like fat breakdown like like like lip lipid oxidation products make my tongue like explode like like they've ever had your taste bud like pop out it looks like a little mushroom cloud on the on the tip of your tongue they were having these anastacio if people have you James yeah anyway so like full fat full fat aged cheese is like I love them I eat them but like they cause a sin mint pain on my tongue to my taste bud like Papa Mike semi sent it to them

call meet like Mary blower not blow him up but like a point being that right now but you're looking for breakdown products and when I think katsu ibushi the main break down products that we're getting from them are protein breakdown of sugar things typically sugar breakdown products are let's face it simple in flavor unless they then go through low temp long age my heart which they do you know and you get like you know non enzymatic Browning which is in a long-term Meyer reactions and they can be somewhat complex but not on that savory Umami hit like you get out of protein breakdown products because we look all the main Savory fermented stuff that we eat soy fish sauce miso chicken parmesan cheese parmesan cheese you know any any one of these things with Worcestershire sauce whatever you know what I mean protein breakdown tall protein breakdown

your water content is so I mean there's just there's not going to be much of a persimmon is my first thought of that too but water water water do that yeah yeah I mean like you know ain't you know I've had some dry melons that are interesting that was that was that was second father when you know was potentially name some dry melons and you've already got like a little bit that natural funk you know especially in cantaloupe you've got that kind of like a stinky so you know you know there might there might be something there as well but I think again with a cantaloupe water is just so high that you're not going to have much left right you need to do a party High first DIYs French for dehydration but it's not really but you got to like yeah you got to get rid of some of that water first cuz otherwise it just goes straight to spoil time instead of you if you wanted Mommy we need some amino acids from somewhere you need it

literally your taste buds are there so that you are like oh I am receiving protein you know I mean that's part of the bone I have to pick with you all right you put Savory down first of all okay

you have this okay it is 100% true people confuse what happens in their nose when I say nose I mean the whole megillah all your olfactory senses right

on the tongue and in the various trigeminal senses that you have right and so that the main break is between flavor and taste right so taste is you know taste is Nastasia Bad Taste in watching The Bachelor constantly know it's like what stuff that happened on your tongue is like a terrible she loves that stuff.

you were sucked in a little bit. See that doesn't matter matter it matters to the right reasons yeah yeah what

I just you know a Jerry Springer is just on for the for the milieu that it creates in my apartment same flavor flavor and taste so like like to me that that here's what I think we're a little bit different or where I know I don't know you tell me where we are so to me taste is the crap it's on your tongue 66 well we can argue about that you know what about CO2 CO2 is mediated Violet I mean I think there is so that's what I taste bud reaction that enzyme mediated through your shower receptor

so I think it's at least that's what that's what Joker said I mean maybe they've done more research but I'm saying is, I think like I think we're going to see the number of recognized taste double in the next 10 to 10 to 15 years lyrics to Let's not even say how many taste there are let's not get into whether or not like how fat works at I'm getting to that which is divided this crap into crap it's on your tongue and crap is just an irritant like trigeminal or crap it's mainly a sensation of like like you know I see that you believe I don't really know what currents I don't have a belief on like how astringency Works whether it's just you know an actual like tactile sensation or what let's not even go there right crap it's on your tongue or crap it's in your nose so most of time with your seem to go as you seem to take the flavors that crap in your nose and taste as the crap in your tongue and your tongue nasty but then like

always thought my view is always been taste is a crap on your tongue flavor is the combination of olfaction and the crap on your tongue like if the whole megillah but you don't ascribe to that you put Savory as part of flavor even though that crap is crap on your tongue ratably hard to try to categorize all of this and that is used on the one category that's really not Aroma driven it is that's exactly right here where we put Savory on the wheel we kind of lumped in basically the Umami ingredients altogether mommy's not an aroma driven response it's a response and it's it's kind of it's the one part of the flavor wheel in The Matrix that is not fully Aroma driven also in sour

right so when you say pungent what you mean are these like like sulfur is like mustard from mustard case right so but on the sour stuff like to me volatile sour is acetic right straight up only acetic the other acids to me are almost completely non-volatile but I don't know like you like like I think you see that as like kind of like also a bridge at least in the book and it's not going to be like separating herbaceous and Menthol was brutal for me every time I was like no basis or bases because eventually I just had to like okay this weather going to go and we're leaving them there and I'm not moving them anymore there's that was one of the hardest ones that was a very hard one for me separating what was Menthol cuz you can make it are you fertile

John in there you can make an argument for Basil wondering what do you I know there are different but does that shade into kind of like usually kind of flavors to you like to me like because then but then they start a straddle like the water your room has to be a category and it was extraordinary hard to pick make categories and they're not perfect I don't think I could ever and unless you know unless we start separating by compound it's hard so we try to do our best to just going to find a good category 2 to fit them in and there's something there some that I really struggled with and and you but you know that's right off of the back cuz they're tough love tough is tough the world around is what it is

remember you said Menthol do you remember like 10 11 12 years ago when everyone was using freaking Menthol crystals yes like here's one thing like it's like it's like there around the same time everyone was using Szechuan buttons and I'm like I'm that guy and I didn't like it was a big learning thing for me because I am extremely sensitive like the Menthol crystals I'm like they just blow my palate out for like a long time but I'm sure that it doesn't have that effect on the chefs that are using it so when your I think one of the interesting things about bringing new ingredients or Szechuan buttons like now my tongue taste like I like I'm licking batteries and tinfoil for like you know like 20 minutes knowing I got I don't enjoy the experience of a session one but I don't I don't I have learned to enjoy

higher quantities of Szechuan peppercorn at all these flowers are like jalapeno Szechuan buttons are like a Carolina Reaper after you eat one thing for like literally for like 15-20 minutes your shot in terms of like your discrimination you want to me I'm sure if you're accustomed to it that's not the case the same way that like I can take a whole lot of capsicum heat and you know relatively quickly being good tasting order against her why you want to become accustomed to such as through like people I can't evaluate the higher levels of it still sick

yeah it was I think people are just like sprinkling Menthol crystals all over everything and I think that's because probably some people are more you know those of those of us that smoke cools are more like in your to the effect of Menthol on the palate then I'm talking to you Alex stupak like I remember he used to like them but I think Sam Mason I'll see some what did he like them a lot of people like menthols but what do you look like you find that problem doing gredients is that withhold ingredients Cooks in general have a long track record of knowing what other people will think about them right and I learned this a lot when I was teaching at the French culinary and I'm sure you can see teaching it ice is that is that when you're teaching large groups of people are when you have a restaurant and you have a large group of people coming in if you were willing to listen and take the feedback you can learn that your palette isn't necessarily everyone's palate with new ingredients hard because there's not a large enough as we say n there's not a large enough end to know how people

can respond to it it's something new something different people get excited they just want to start throwing it everywhere and I mean I don't want myself to taste like Ice Breakers gum you know that's just not cool in any way but I think you know what I mean I think it's it's something you know we've seen for a while now it's like every new technique comes along every new little trick of a new little ingredient you know there are made out of foam is the best example that that's a great thing when you use it the right way but it doesn't belong everywhere and just because you can doesn't mean you should I will put whipped cream on almost everything I eat whipped cream off of spoons I will just talk into a bowl of whipped cream I like whipped cream I didn't like

if God were to choose one food I think whipped cream maybe cuz it's very ethereal you know what I mean bread bread is my favorite food is good chocolate chocolate it up kind of his his land and he's he's doing all kinds of cool things out of the chocolate I remember don't stop at the bar go all the way to toilet toilet toilet

so the way the flavor Matrix starts out for those aren't ever going to get into when I get in some like we're going to get into it here right it starts out with your meeting literally starts like the first paragraph starts with your well I don't want to say meeting cuz it is computer what interaction with Chef interaction with what right and I'm sitting there you think she's shopping for shoes on Zappos cuz she comes out with a give me a little right the multitasking is is French for I suck before we finish up the show

this episode of cooking issues is brought to you by Bob's Red Mill an employee-owned company that has been offering organic stone-ground products for decades we have a question from a lesson about Bob's gluten-free egg replacer which has four ingredients in potato starch tapioca flour baking soda and psyllium husk fiber Bill wants to know what about this combination replicates the properties of eggs and remember any time you're going to use an egg replacer the question is in what application are you using your eggs serve a lot of different functions in this case is Bob's Red Mill product is meant to be used in quick breads other kind of baking application so what it's doing there is it providing a are holding tank capacity right because it gives kind of a thickening texture and it's going to provide some leavening to the baking soda is there to increase the leavening of the product it's also going to make it slightly more basic the psyllium is there as kind of this gluey thing that you get out of an egg and in the starches are there to be fairly neutral they're going to add some viscosity to the product

also they're going to provide structure when it bakes out so potato starch in particular and his heart and tapioca starch both have kind of very elastic textured while tapioca Specialties elastic when you cook a potato starch swells a lot and soaks up a lot of water so it's there to kind of provide those functions do you have a question about Bob's Red Mill ingredient. Suicide Heritage underscore radio if you want to try cooking with gluten-free egg replacer go to Bob's Red Mill. Calm and use the code cooking issues that's one word all caps cooking issues for 25% off your order number back alright David said I got some colors we do it with color and then we're going to James you and I are going to get back into flavor pairing Theory because I have a big spider there still color on the air

color color


please start with the meeting Watson and then you and then you say rather cavalierly that you got into the same called flavor pairing Theory now

I got first of all we're not even going to get into the hole when I'm going to go to the whole area teasing because I don't have all day myself what's the point of having a fight with a guy who doesn't like the word food and says things like proteins don't exist there's no point in fighting with I'm not going to say on air that are a tease of huckster

I believe it digested by fight I mean he gave me his opinion stronger than I said either at each person or McGee person I'm McGee person hundred percent hundred percent know why not you can't like them both if you know a lot about either of them that's what it is like Elvis and The Beatles are fundamentally unrelated like maybe at a particular point in time you were the kind of person who listen to Elvis and those people didn't hang out with Beatles people but there's nothing inherently that says you can't listen to Bossa Nova baby which by the way was written by Ed Woods wife ex-wife before now great song You Know

but I do anyway my point is that I think is more fundamental difference between pieces approach to the world and and Harold McGee's approach to the world theory I will say it simply roughly and then you can tell me why I'm being over simplistic and what not but that in some way like goes with like and by studying the compounds that are in XYZ food you can learn other things that go with it that have similar compounds this was also been there other things that are related to flavor pairing theory that have to do with the rise of big data over the past 15 years or so where people have done lots of studies on the similarities and differences of what they consider to be the important compounds in recipes all of the studies I have seen like that on


massive quotes cross-cultural studies of recipes Based on data mining I think are by and large no offense to them garbage because that I think if you read the underlying data sets that they use they're like well we looked up Asia for white people and then we you know what I mean like I think like they they they don't go to the fundamental issue of how Cuisines arise which is we have these ingredients and we've lived with them for a thousand years and here's what we've come up with over-the-knee and this has been injected isn't that section of what I think it's like the larger complex of points of which flavor you know flavor pairing theory is part I don't think it's as your main to you what you're writing about I don't think you care so much in here whether or not the average Western if there is even a word Western if that even makes sense cuz it Doesn't

like Potter Reno pairing of butter and flour and you know which they still point out whether that whether those Aroma compounds go together I don't think his part of the main thesis of your book I think it goes more to this thing what you know I look up like Bernard Lihue so these other folks who are looking much as you did on the compounds that are similar and saying let's look at new new pairings that result from the similarities and compound I say the most famous early example is kind of dog was it white white chocolate white chocolate and caviar actually is it actually is but I think I think though the the white chocolate Cadbury more than anything at the salty sweet right you know that I think that's like that was a thing you know that we got into when we was female with lashona 21st start time I mean you know it's it's cocoa butter sugar and sugar and vanilla

with caviar in need of vanilla vanilla has got a lot going on there in pairs with a lot of things because it is one of those complex that you know it doesn't that doesn't have you know the high number of compounds in factories kind of surprisingly low me look at Coffee that's got me over 800 compounds that make up your own of coffee only about two hundred and vanilla so but I think it's something we actually call complex even so you don't see your point earlier that you know you can have some to be very complex even though it doesn't have this new message number of compounds in it so do your point about Flavor pairing. And where you're going to think you know there was a big study about 4 or 5 years ago that I think he's like the one you're talking about where they looked at shared compounds in quote Western traditional Western recipes verse traditional Easter Nespresso where in

I think the point of it is Thursday found plenty of very popular recipes for dishes that have very few shared compounds in them and in be home again. The Western idea they found we found a much higher incidence of of the shared flavor compounds to me comes out to more is the is the like like in like you know things that are similar go well together and one really interesting thing I found it was just too much to get into it a little too early in it but with some of the early researchers in the shop Austin probably we've been discussing it lately and a lot of flavor data in a lot of it a lot of the flavor compounds are derived from environment so it kind of takes us a little back to that you know what grows together goes together kind of thing which I also don't believe but go ahead

it's just a matter of finding bang weave I think one of my favorite data points in it is that chemically olive oil is better suited for apples than butter is to take that make your apple pie with olive oil instead of butter out of all of us are sous-vide and olive oil and they are freaking out what apple is taking is your prime Apple and that was a man, which is a little green is got more the green or choosing a green olive oil or butter or olive oil

look at generalities because there could be an entire book of of different Apple matrices you know I mean what do you fall into camps but those camps are very different from each other and then the interplay of what their Aroma is with their underlying sugar acid base I think it's like super important so here's what I think I think that you should check out the book and you should look at it and wow I do not while I do not ascribe to the fact that like always goes with like I think there's a lot of places in here where you will see things that you have put together before and you will see the similarity once you see them on the wheel and I also think that

like that they are Betis model of just taking a bunch of things and randomly combining them based on some sort of like metric I don't think you ascribe to this cuz I think that's garbage work I could just take them together and figure it out eventually to get something different you know there's this disappointing some good directions look is when they run into problems and you have a section hear what you're saying things that are complementary right vs things that are opposing or balancing and you always want you still love going to JG so much because he was there you know he was there that was the French the high-end French restaurant it knew how to balance their stuff with acid better is a reversal

but what I'm saying is that I think as a source of inspiration and learning I think we can agree right that that is the most interesting things that gives you new places to look for preparing that you wouldn't necessarily have look for not necessarily would you agree that's not necessarily true that always liked those would like to see if two things have a poop Aroma in them and you put them together if he wants double poop

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