Cooking Issues Transcript

Episode 320: Meat Cure-All

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no more days present me people because I'm effing with the microphone here because y'all touching it you already broke it see that epoxy on the shock mount that's why can't the mic point from the why can't the back of the Mike Point down and the front of the Mike point if you loosen the screws properly look like it's twisting in the back or just ongoing Battle of the of the we are the road crew

let me

those screws oh my God it's up technical genius Dave other this did technology days like don't touch the shock mount again you jerk it's going to give you an electric shock the people I want to shock they used to have non-isolated equipment and he was out playing I think in the rain and the plant was adultery one of those guys do you know I think it was Rodger Daltrey actually could be spending that microphone probably stressing the hell out of that grave XL hard like rain like old amplifier vintage custom with a k

vinyl upholstered like Eddie Munster style bass amp and that mother that mother used to throw a hundred twenty Volt across my across the barrels of my connectors like on the regular so how would just be like this out like even just like normal without water

metal 70s equipment wasn't you know you're safe at a hammer Lopez how you doing this is not cooking labile get it out of the way now for those of you that and by the way Johnny Hunters going to call in a couple of minutes to going to be a fun personal story no nacio Lopez hates hates hates country music Merle Haggard we flew to California to meet Merle Haggard if you meet like one of the all-time Legends and you're like me anyways cuz he does this annoying thing where every time does a song that he likes that's a country song plays he will be like God can you believe she left him can you believe she left them

the kids and every Hate Story songs and she hates more than Story songs is discussing Story songs

because if it's the same story it's like any song any song with him when he's bringing her down and she has a good job in New York and he wants to go back to Georgia like mistake mistake it's a dream just how good can this guy P odds are they're going to break up when they go back to Georgia anyway. I mean they can't even afford the day timeframe it's no good anyway. That's not my point. So she hate story song There's a famous David Allan Coe song he didn't write write it but it in which he jokingly tries to hit everything that a country music song is about so it's it's a trains trucks prison drinking mama and rain storms so this one verse hits all of that but I found and he did that on purpose is a joke I found a song it hits almost everything

she hates it's by a guy named Johnny Paycheck do they only song you might know by Johnny Paycheck is the Only Hell My Mama Ever Raised he also wrote I'm going to take this job and take this job and shove paycheck has a song that nastassia hate more than anything it's hyper twangy bad production value like white dude was already she hates it then already done it's a story song done but get this get this it's a story about him on a train called Billy Jack Washburn right and he finds this guy almost dead he's hoboing on a train when he gets out of jail so that's everything right there drinking he finds his guy almost dead in a boxcar he becomes like a father to him then the guy falls in between the train and gets crushed and dies he picks up the body only then if you look at the ID and finds out his long-lost brother yeah you like that everything you hate I'm going to play it constantly and discuss it and I'll be like this

how old was the Mana guy says he hasn't been home in 22 years doesn't even know he has a brother what are the freaking eyes at 22 years later he's on the tracks and it becomes a mentor to his own brother what are the what are the odds ESPN like play-by-play but every time the song comes on by the way I don't know how to find it people but the Seattle one of the Seattle play-by-play people write did a play-by-play of a drunk person trying to break into a truck with a broom handle are at the end you like falls off of a roof rats the funniest like sports play-by-play ever stassi is very angry by the way the Pats I'm not really do you like the Patriots

did you cook anything for the Super Bowl today I did Chilly Willy drink enough water you don't need sunscreen that's so stupid he's in the he's a moron like when he's not he's wearing a make America great again hat so no potatoes related ripe tomatoes eggplant I mean just like groupie pushes this whole Health lifestyle that you need to have a lot of money to actually live pseudoscience name is Poop company has a company called Google you don't know about this I feel like you would

I feel like you would rail against this time I'm willfully ignoring it cuz apparently nastassia has explained it to me in the past and I I must be willfully ignoring its existence you know what I mean but I like you as people who listen to show for a long time no see nastassia does not actually make chili nastassia makes tomato beef stew McCormick chili what the hell is wrong with you you know making chili is so freaking easy like making chili you need are dried Chiles some tomato products cumin a couple other spices garlic and me onions what the hell then I hit the pack deep into my trash before my friends at least they price your your chili had cumin in it if you don't normally and I made Philly cheesesteaks

I love how you do it what how do you I had these bags of sous vide steak from whom all too fancy for a Philly cheesesteak

somebody who you shall not name Voldemort call them work major at how are those good that is a Philadelphia I will say that is not standard not approved but I liked anyway when I make cheesesteaks I'm a gruyere guy Dave to fancy can't make cheese steaks with day

I watch Forrest Gump Johnny is on the line I got to find Nastassja is questions hold on a second date. Hunter the underground Meats underground food and anything that you can like late or age underground Johnny Hunter will do underground

that made it a hundred like shark or what we need to ferment them and such but how was it

sounds good too because I mean it's hard to control the temperature of the earth you know what I mean right thing to do it or just fine except for in the new bar I'm having Johnny see what you think I'm having a I would like a vicious like almost drawing blood coming to blows argument over ice in cocktails that will get into it later when we actually open the bar I'll have John Lyon will have Jack and we'll just discuss the merits and demerits of icing across the ranch at 1:30 I need to charge my phone is charging her phone instead of listening to your jaw know how that makes you feel any way

some sort of deep space equivalent and everyone knows the stassi is a huge fan of the musk Family Robinson there a Tesla in space or something what happens if I mix beer and crushes the city where is the charging station in space why would you want a car in space come Crashing Down to Earth again you got to design it to burn up you know what I mean it's like it's like old school like when you throw like like big objects into space now everyone on Earth has to be like let's not hit that when we launched something I mean it's kind of like a real it's a real pooping on everybody's like it's like you know it's like pooping on somebody else's lawn really mean I want to know if you know this is going to take delivery of a Tesla sometime in the summer in line for the thousand dollar deal

pre-order your test and I know some people by the way in the Stasi it like makes all of these story that kid I can't afford cable I don't deserve Kayden it's so irritating people like I can't control it and stassi and I have a set of a we have a a bunch of them coming in that we will own and that we will sell in a month and Amazon I don't know what the people I want you to know Amazon is literally Jeff bezo spent all of his time making Super Bowl commercials right now and not enough time worrying about what the hell's going on they lost over a thousand years olds that by the way they have not paid us for true or false true we paid V payed us even though we paid Amazon not paying

a question came in two for the show that you did and somehow didn't make it through so I'm going to read it now you ready so I was excited

what I sent him a question so he knows it to anyway because the people who you know aren't Johnny or you okay I'm fairly new to charcuterie so excited to hear about a potential keyring focused episode well we're doing that you know what do we need standard extended just talkin garbage anyway questions I have included pictures of my curing chamber which I can't see here and my pancetta although this matter because people on the radio can't see it so it doesn't matter it could be a picture of a goat or could be a picture of SpaceX doesn't matter because people on space

yeah I see the photo the chamber has a simple PID for temperature and a humidifier is outside the chamber on a humidity controller there's an IP 57 57 people start like a splash splash and dust rating kind of thing fan on the same controller up with the post humidified are headed to shoot the guide the Mist yada yada so it's no it's not a setup and sounded pretty well so I didn't want to refill the humidifier so it's plugged into my water line with a copper right there and it's the truth of the matter is Tom that people who you know Johnny you tell me that the majority of people who do this for a living don't have time to go find a float switch and like take copper lines and

coming in and get it all working so if you want like I don't know but unfortunately shut don't have a lot of money but they will buy the stuff if you show up and set this up they will give you free whatever for like a long time you'll like become like in a most valued customer you'll get like free Craps he is very easy if you have a skill like this to trade this skill for free dinners my right Johnny chance give me a call questions how important is it to measure the lady says aw for those who don't know what that is that water activity I don't know why it's a w and not wa but a capital A Little W stands for the water activity and I'll read the question then I'll say something to talk about it important is it to monitor water activity is weight a cute enough I'd like to adjust the humidity early in the Cure based on washer content to prevent case hardening that's what that what that means is if you try to dry meat to quickly you dry out just a surface in the inside

is very wet and that messes with the cure for the entire time it's like You Tube it's a big problem so that's why you really want to regulate humidity and not try to quickly anyway but would like some data behind it ideally I have continuous data logging the moisture away but I'm not sure that feasibility if water content is the best bet any equipment recommendations okay now go water activity without specialized equipment is extremely difficult to measure most commercial sausage producers are measuring I believe water activity old school measurements for ham or done by weight just because it's the only thing that easily feasible but you do have to worry about a case hardening now what are your thoughts Johnny

well that that was what I was going to say is that you know weight doesn't necessarily mean that there's not lose water in the product in that can potentially lead to some sort of bacterial growth that you were being so what I would say though a couple things one doing the whole month or like pancetta is less dangerous than doing something like sausage

because you're not having the grind set up the second thing is whether or not the product turned out so if you get recognized in the product then

can you call and it smells off if it's too soft or moist at any point I be worried about that only question I had was whether or not he uses nitrates botulism would be the one thing that would make me a little bit concerned with the rolled-up pancetta I think something that people kind of need to go back to the basics on is kind of two things one the concept of multiple hurdles and second is like knowing whether or not you're riding on the edge right so like if you're in Industry you know consistency is the most important thing you know their safety first then consistency afterwards until monitoring and also they're pushing the limits of trying to do things as fast as possible so they need to get their the water activity measured because you know it's consistent you know the a

it's probably right but if you should know if you aren't acting that way if you're not living at the edge of the envelope of safety right you have multiple hurdles protecting you so Johnny points out night-night rates are going to protect against botulism right also most people when they're curing non whole muscle cuts are letting it for meant to a way lower pH than is necessary very not that many people are going for that like super sweet super slow acid although I do enjoy those sausages right so that you know you have your nitrates and nitrites you have your your acid from your initial ferment and then most people are also drying it more than is necessary and probably have one thing that they people probably do mess with in the wrong direction I would say is the salt but

I like it when you have like those all of those multiple hurdles the chance that any one thing is going to screw you I think it's relatively low now if you're doing a minimally dried product that is not been fermented and has a you know if you take away a bunch of those hurdles when I got to start worrying and what do you think Johnny yeah if you would pull out that would look too wet and he wasn't using nitrates and you know it smelled off you know that then you start to get concerned but if you know the correct salty and a time that allowed for something and if he's following the recipes from the book that he mentions later then I'm not too worried about it the one thing I was going to mention if you can get a third party to test the water

that could happen at most any food safety lab or you can send off product and it's like a $30 test tell me whether you're ready cuz I think I think this could work so the water activity right you should shouldn't you be able to the water activity is measuring kind of like how much free water there is in in a product right so don't think about is they they they think for instance it's something that thickens things lower the water activity not true not true at all right so like gels and anything you add that all it's doing is making it appear like the thing is dryer isn't actually reducing the water activity right but shouldn't be a maybe it's not and I've been told it's not so it must not be but I tried once to take samples of known water activity

seal them in vacuum bags and then throw throw them into a vacuum chamber and see whether if you put an unknown sample in weather like okay so that the one that's driest Puffs last everyone knows anyone who doesn't know what I'm talking about when you put a sealed vacuum bag into a vacuum chamber at a certain point the the interior vacuum level of the bag of the chamber is such that the moisture in your bag will start evaporating off the surface of your food and the bag will inflate like a pillow right and that I believe is related directly to the water activity of the product so it would seem that as long as all the temperatures were the same that you'd be able to take let's say a series of known water activities in bags throw them into a vacuum chamber as like an indicator and then throw in your sample bag and then see you know oh my sample pus in between these two so it must be

but that isn't don't you think that should be possible Johnny

I mean that makes sense to me my only thought is as you had heart he's hardly eating at any level than that could

actually like make your perception off on what's Poppin and not right but I don't know why they didn't think it would work but I don't know why that wouldn't work you know maybe some yeah maybe someone here can talk about the do you have something to test that stuff for you just go based on weight since we bought a water activity meter and so whatever you end of year if you doing any commercial production you have to do it so you seal it in the chamber you letter to equilibrate blah blah blah blah blah I have to take the test 5 minutes

get a thing such as not making sausages to think about is that he does if he he would want to use a pH meter and it might even be worthwhile to get the pH on the on the product because you do still have the Shelf stability factor that matters with ph plus water activity

Jimmy probably I mean meets natural around 5-6 so you probably dropping down to five three right so it's a lot which is a whole number in pH is tenfold is a tenfold increase in in free hydrogen

so the second part of this question was on the the book series read I read charcuterie home production of Quality Meats and sausages and I'm working my way through the art of making fermented sausages the more technical the better though the marianski books may have already already of optimized bring technical instruction to the home producer what do they

yeah so my favorite Chuck Berry book that I read kind of starting off with the cooking My Hand by all the Trolli which has like some really great at the meat processing in general

I mean I still use it if I go back to it because he just has a lot of really good information so his section on on sausage and stuff I think is explaining how to make a pot and how kind of environment affects the drying came out before the original Simon's room and charcuterie book did at a time when the only available reference that normal people could get at a bookstore this is priority you know Amazon frankly I think or around the time that came out was rytek kutas is the sausage maker if anyone remembers that old home

so it was kind of one of the lone voices in the wilderness in English on how to make your that wasn't a very expensive professional book that you could get so and it still holds up all this time later

yeah I really I mean it's better than the Roman book and so yeah I never did say anything ever against a Maria Guarnaschelli production ever because you know lightning that the sky will open and a lightning bolt will go through my head and strike me dead and then there was the first one out there I just think

right person out there that there was the sausage maker but the thing is like so much of that data is like in the sausage maker like I just don't trust remember that book you ever see even see that book picture of him on the front lobby floating around for a while and it was there's a lot of wrong things in it sends runs a company now it dude hard smoke everything the guy wanted everything to taste like your boss you're basically he's like give him any recipe he's like how can I make this recipe taste like kielbasa has basically remember this Johnny at all yeah that was it I was like well smoke on that brother is an interesting interesting book there

those ones later if you don't want to know ya do it put it on Johnny Hunter and tag tag Heritage Radio or tag cooking issues or something like that you know Madison Wisconsin is like someone close to Canada right so do you have you ever and I know it's not like you know you have to go over to Toronto when I would have you ever done a peameal bacon

if you made a good one I love that stuff why is no one in America sell the real stuff why do we have that or riffic see before on the show it's one of those things where you Americans like to poke fun of Canadians right and like but they shouldn't do it by passing off that crap they sell in the US as Canadian bacon because that's that's not like poking fun of someone ate a bad product and be at slanderous to the actual product you know what I mean super easy to make you a cornmeal on your peameal bacon or you happy meal on your peameal bacon guy

I had a sandwich at that last time I was in Toronto and I was like oh man I feel bad all the insults over all the years that I've leveled at this product have been misplaced to finally Tom wrote are there lesser-known wholecut that I should be considering for dry cure I have access to a butcher it breaks down whole animals so anything's on the table

yeah I mean I think you know you can cure quite a bit with the pig but the one thing that I think people might have a good time with is a spec which is using a sirloin

which is a pretty cheap, and easy to cure and gets lot of ham flavor and a lot less time and keeping your spec flat or do you roll that thing

are we keep a flat either slice I like it flat to I like it flat and by the way I shouldn't say this but Johnny have you been on Amazon Prime video and have you looked up the Hormel video

no I have it I mean I shouldn't say that it's getting the museum might do a thing on it you know like some sort of a program based around it but everyone needs to go on their Amazon Prime account I like I'm pushing Amazon even though we hate them whatever they whatever I'd like I said like they're terrible to sell to but they're awesome to buy from I'm conflicted I'm of two minds there is a a video Johnny you must watch it as soon as you hang up it's a 30 minute video from the I think mid-60s with some very last point in time when it was cool to be industrial meat production and so there's two kids watching trains go by to extremely white children watching trains go by mean like look at all those cars and then they're like maybe maybe dad will take us to the Hormel plant so they write a letter to Hormel a woman because all the secretaries of course or women opens the letter and arranges

for the family courts that even though the mom is involved the dad takes him to the Hormel plant course it is it is you don't actually see them sticking the pigs and the cows but from the minute their blood out you see like the automated knife that cuts the pigs in half you see like the bacon press you see like this person who all they do all day is is a is boneham is a guy with a face trimmer so like it trims off of the ranch I guess off the back side note rims off the outside skin of the ham on the top side and he's got an automatic machines he's literally rolling the hams through like ripping the skins off it shows you the skin being turned into gelatin it's so it shows you the skin being sent off to make footballs out of it show stripping the skins off of cows it shows the flushing the cowhide it shows making spam it shows testing spam for a fat content with like at like Alexa

the Hormel plant it shows making Dinty Moore beef stew it shows cooking things in cans shows me a tire in the entire industrial operation of turning pigs and cows into anything the pigs and cows can possibly even a table in a zero-waste phenomenon there's a guy who's boning out the hams for their bone pressed ham and the guy is like the guy is like freaking like Zen monkey like you just his hands like move like he's swimming through water but instead you just taking the bones out of hands and it's miraculous Until you realize it all this man did 24/7 and during his work time was phone and it's like Simpsons Bart Simpson in that episode where they're trapped in Japan is like knife goes in fish guts come out knife goes in guts come out is it is with you must watch it as a piece of Americana as a piece of if your pro or anti industrial agriculture you must be up for that you must see it for a slice of like mid-century like

American mentality the gender relations stuff in it is intense because they're these there's a 60 something year old woman working the line packing get this Hormel wieners and in the package is right in this entire line of women who are like making sure these packages line up there all refer to in East Asia does is uniformly referred to as girls I've Just Seen girls put the wieners end of the passage 60 year old woman there and then later on there is a person who is a woman that they feel has actual skill as a skilled jobs the only such woman in the entire thing I see that there's one woman scientist she's a woman she's a woman I forget what hurt look at Hormel technology and then they have like he's 1960s computers with a giant reel-to-reel tapes in there like we can print our entire payroll in an hour

so you must watch this if you're interested out and the reason I brought us up is they show they don't have a hand press that they showing it but they do show the bacon press so they show like the the bacon sides going in the show the Needler they so like they continuous needling of the bacon sizes they go through and then they show it being pressed into its bakish a poem and Johnny if you really want to just be like drool they show the rotary slicing knife for slicing the bacon in a slice bacon and just about the coolest half hour of what the hell that you can watch for free on Amazon Prime video have I stole Bastille

I know I'm so excited I think they would need to take a break so you can collect yourself

my name is Brandon for a co-owner of a super duper awesome place

the furnace is a very very very very proud sponsor of the Heritage Radio Network we're also super awesome thank you Heritage all right all right so that music that they're playing there is actually what they play in the pizza cooking place like literally like that mixture of drag racing and like space guns and like metal metal heavy metal like not metal in the sense of like not like glam metal not like long hair men have long hair but not like glamorous metal more like that

Big Lots of double bass drum pedal like lots of you know like just like anger shouting pockets are always like that anyway Collier on the air

oh yeah babe I have a sausage person for Johnny with the first response to you

all I'm trying to sort out how to make with the Chinese style rap song sausage without a long slow dry or is that you got yourself in I don't know if you're still listening tweet that at 3 that are not on the cooking issues and open-ended question

I'm trying to do I'm trying to get a fried noodle to Puff okay

has a present already been fried are you talking about like Ramen

making I'm making a fresh egg noodle a 10 lb prime

are they came out really Crisp & crunchy and otherwise good but they're just a little too dense and I would like them to just expand a little bit. Here's what you got to do the trick is anytime you're puffing what you need is you need to turn the stars in the case of pasta gelatin in the case of gelatin collagen in the case of of pork skin or or chicken skin or fish skin what you got to do is you got to fully gelatinize that stuff and then you want to dry it uniformly uniformly to a I don't forget what the percentages are but a relatively low moisture I'm making this number up I don't know 10% the way you do it is you just like when it looks glassy again then as soon as it gets glassy it's usually good if you go further than that it won't pop anymore so the trick is you want to cook your pasta cook it in water the reason not to Friday

the point is because you're trying to keep the structure of the pasta relatively intact if you fry it now the water will leave and the places where the water is will no longer be places that will expand when you puff puff it later get me so then what you do is you cook it longer you cook it the better although it starts to fall apart but the longer you cook it the better I will cook it with some salt in water so they have some flavor then spread out and let it let it dry even just like letting it dry almost naturally is good enough if you turn it turn it once or twice but like aloe on with the door open fast is like a low temperature in Excalibur dehydrator and if you want to you can push the dehydration a little quicker like you can keep it up at like 1:30 for an hour or two to flash off some of the water and then drop it down to like 110-115 and just let it ride until it gets like I said just get glassy this also works with rice it works with wheat barley anything anything like this

I want to set that state you throw it in the deep fryer or microwave it or use a heat gun for paint and help us but the trick is cooked preferably overcook hard dry and then fry

and you can tweak it right depending on how much water you leave in the product or depending on how much structure is left in it by how much you cook you can make it harder or puffy or you can get anywhere from barely expanded to like you know like almost like like pork rinds from a package even with pasta so anastacio knows she had to deal with this like week after week at at the French culinary old school if you go on the old cooking issues blog which might still be available somewhere on the internet's maybe on the archive or something there's a there's a whole post on puff snacks what kind of goes over the parameters back when I actually studied them so I take a look at that

at Walmart already know how it works out

all right now we got us a ribbon up David at time strawberry infused rum apparently he's summer strawberries and rum in a mason jar then forgot them for includes two or three years he recently found it again and wants to know whether it's safe to drink it smells like homemade jam and there's no mold on it but the strawberries turn into a grouse Braun mass in the bottom of the jar and stassi would love nothing more than Chris Brown mess he's running the liquid through coffee filter and so far it seems to be turning out of pretty dark pink color but it's all the stuff looks gross I'm sending along pictures which I didn't see I'm doubtful that it's safe but what do you think Jane from Toronto and there's a underneath that is there's a related question from fermenting strawberries on play cancer Jane is that stuff to 100% safe look at it this way as soon as you using 40% alcohol rum let's say you use equal-weight strawberry to run with probably did not happen in this case you're still over

Point you're at 20% of slightly over 20% alcohol and so as we like to say in French you're good you want to mean you're like it's not nothing's going to grow in that it's going to kill you so then the question is does it taste good or not and if it tastes good you're good to go also I mean what will grow up nothing's going to grow as long as I can probably it's over 20% alcohol but if its 20 or above your you're in you're in real good shape they're in as long as it tastes good on that the pace maybe Gross A lot of times fruit will absorb the more overtime like this it probably is all equilibrated but a lot of times solids can taste really nasty because it absorbs stuff that you don't like from the ROM excetera excetera excetera so I would discard the solids and then drink liquor although my my stepfather whose father died you no reason to talk about music Butcher on the Shelf finally a couple of months ago they found those like 70 or 80 I don't even know maybe even older now you're old cherries there's three left so may

he will wait to eat them until I can cure my allergy or maybe I'll just sit there with an EpiPen and like my brother Gerard night

we are okay so I didn't I was supposed to write I was supposed to get a magazine people to get an article together so I can have three generations of Adam Ezio's having a Manhattan with this chair that they've 4th or 5th generation put down in the twenties right and yes I never got it to happen and now he's dead and so now I have to wait another 20 you know something years for Girard to be old enough to be in that I'm not going to wait that long to read this article

you know who the hell knows what my brother's going to have a kid in time so how am I going to get three generations of magnesia not going to go through generations took a dark turn so Blake Road in about four men taking strawberries they will talk more about it next week on cooking issues

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