Cooking Issues Transcript

Episode 306: The Art of Flavor

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every Tuesday from 12 to like 12:45 one from Roberto's Pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn joined as usual with nastase the hammer Lopez I got the Dave in the booth hello how you doing I'm doing well and I'm happy that even though this has been another terrible week in the United States of America I'm glad to say you know I have some friends here today so if we will have a good discussion that is you know not about the horrible things are happening outside of our little container box Studio I'm joined today by Mandy aftel

I Daniel Patterson Mandy is the world-renowned perfumer is that the correct term perfumer par Excellence who's who's kind of Ohio if a human has a main thrust to their life it's that that she's interested in fragrances that are derived naturally sourcing them finding them collecting them compounding them using them thinking about them writing about them yes or no yes because you know being in the food World myself I know how everyone hates to be kind of box in but I will say that you know I guess I first had your food at qualico a billion years ago and then again like a half a billion years ago but you know what struck me as very

he's one of the thoughtful share so he's one of the kind of you know that generation of chefs that just really took to the advantage of the food I would say it's just very thoughtful about and what he does how he does it why he why he does it why he uses what it what he uses also serious control freak I'll tell you guys a little story from Daniel's actually he was like so nastase and I were on a massive Citrus tasting I think was a citrus tasting right size or was it that Merle Haggard Merle Haggard Merle Haggard was alive we were going to Merle Haggard concert so we can get him to school we had this series we were getting people to drink shots of aquavit we're taking pictures of them before during and after

which is Sunday maybe we'll start again on a who knows anyways so we're there and you know we go to the we go to the restaurant and after the meal Daniel Kentucky. So how you like it needs like guys I think I really enjoyed it which I did we have a great meal hey standing remember he was standing we scold him and he was standing cuz remember it was right next to a strip club and there was that painting of The Strip stuff outside anyway so he didn't ask me how my meal was last time I was there like she'd been like maybe two or three years prior and was super angry at me that I didn't think that the first meal I had there was absolute garbage compared to the current me lad had because because and it's a super interesting he had learned so much more in life over those intervening like 2 to 3 years and was mad at me and not being able to discern immediately the extra kind of knowledge and this goes to show kind of like a person's always kind of thinking about what they do

now they think the reason they're here not just Christina they want to be here but they're on a a book to her they just released a new book called The Art of flavor right Riverside which is head head should have written it on a file card for me Riverhead which I can only remember as being apparently I've been told the greatest of all the penguin in Prince like penguin Classics are are useless like piles of garbage or is it stassi would say paper weights and or things to separate my book for is it separate hot food from cold foods when she's going to pot lux60 exact exact correct insulator thickness and fitting into a tote bag to separate you know I can make the LT style hot and cold so yeah so maybe other Penguin Books can be there but this this imprint not like that so

Aroma which was what it was about the real essential oils as components of recipes for food and for like Personal Care in fragrance think this book is completely different and both of you aside from when you're riding together right apart like you know obviously didn't you have looked but also you write for like you've written from New York Times magazine right and you know if you do like straight-up West Coast waiting to or like I I read you the New York Times but you do all those like evil papers out there on your side of the bed it's like weird relationship with San Francisco right I mean like it's kind of it is your town but I don't know you like I don't I don't you never said it to me but he always seems that you are bucking whatever Tran happens to be current there at that time right it's like you're kind of a no little bit different like a little bit I don't know I think you had it right the first time a little more difficult

alright so now when you guys are riding together how does it how does it how does that work do you like parcel it out into pieces the lump it all together you like I'll think this chapter I'll take this chance you like how does it how does that work should we book started was I was at Mandy's studio and were talking and she's actually talking about her creative process when she puts together a perfume and it was just very much like like how I think about putting together a dish and so many say we are we should write a book about that you know we likely wrote about her almost right about the living I thought to myself and I was three years ago is hard it sucks I hate it do you like it I know you do what do you like it now it's a terrible do you like it is Daniel and I did really spend like once a week every week going over we did do the writing to get there are areas that are much more Daniels in mine in the book that are are his

split complete chapters I don't think I had much input in a few things and a few for me as well but the bulk of the whole book is this combined mind that we had together finishing each other's sentences and he was really there with me together the two of us it was very exhilarating and exciting just sounds like an utter and complete nightmare to me it was good is that I learned so much in this process like I could have never written this book myself right so I thought I knew about flavor and I did intuitively and we had this great quote from Jack the time about how it was like what is the Cartesian theory behind all of his intuitive process which lake was kind of how I felt and and once you start unpacking like the process of how you think about what you put together right to like carrots and orange they go together everyone knows happened no one ever tells you why they go together and so that was really with the book was about was like a million books and tell you what to put together but you know for a session with a home cook

it's kind of mysterious right so so the process by which we we found her way through the book was as much as anything else not a writing thing but a structural thing how do you take something so nonlinear and make it in linear which is what a book is you read one chapter another try for another chapter and the process was that you know we would Mandy would lend a lot of her language that she and developer perfume in terms of locking in Burien so into flavors join together to create something that's new or Barrymore something is very very strong and you have to push it down so it doesn't dominate like like Rosemary or anchovies or something like that how it how to think about what the next process isn't what I realize is a cook and you can probably relate to this a lot of the decisions we make a compound decisions some things I realized early on is that a cook does something it seems like you do one thing I actually just hiding like three or four things at once what's the cooking process what are you adding

and then what what is the herb that's going to come later and all of the stuff kind of becomes one and so was working with Mandy really help me with was teasing this out to be able to see with some kind of clarity all of the different steps that happen along the way

what's up to that point you know you I know I've heard Mandy talked many times about kind of the structure of like a perfume breaking it down into and I wrote it in my magical books I wouldn't have to do it from memory top middle and kind of bass notes right and then was interesting and seeing that translated into kind of a Cook's flavor thing and it didn't actually necessarily get translated 100% the way I thought it was going to get translated so they know it's either and was applied in the book to food which is about researching flavor and thinking about flavor and I thought for a while since I asked Harold Gill can you just tell me where I can find like you have people thought about Flavor of how people put things together how what were the the ways you were thinking about creating

I was shocked at how little there was there was a lot historically about what people use but not about the thinking y'all because the creation of flavor is stuff that's moving and dynamic it's not static you can't just when you put this with this and you have that which reminded me so much of perfume from perfume we talked about top middle and base notes and so top notes are things that reach your sense of smell very quickly and disappear quickly do you often kind of sharp and their smell and then middle notes have kind of usually more layers to them and they bridge that distance between the top notes which Witcher sense of smell quickly and disappear and last kind of longer then there's bass noted are usually deep and Rich and heavy and come from like roots and Barks and heavier things and so when you're thinking about smells just thinking about that kind of shape and dynamic and what they do to each other as they're evolving so where we came to with we applied some of that to food which I think is one of them are abstract ideas in the book

I think like bearing and locking separate issue to get your head behind but you should say the four rules I think you should because that plays it will be even before we get to the four rules which we need to get to so like that perfume you know you have these how do you contrast like a bass no like you say bar with more of whatever you call to fix it is or what are the base notes are the fix it is so based out to the things that last the longest and they make the perfume Stay the Longest of the heaviest molecules but on the food side it translates into the more I wouldn't want a bland but kind of like the more overridden note so when you transfer it from a perfume where it's literally that the thing it's holding literally by the way apparently according to Miguel talk of him holding the high notes down you know what I mean so that they stay there longer

Madonna the food world is terrible to so the

to a light guy in a food contact Daniel you're talking more like the beans side of the equation so I can text seems to me to be an interesting an interesting shift going from the one regime to the other yes so one way to think about it so it did a couple of farm-raised chicken recipes so the chicken would be one of things about the book there's no luxury ingredients it's all the stuff you can get at the supermarket we really want this to be a book there's like 80-85 recipes they're all easy cuz I think that's really important is if you're going to show something you know you got to show it in a way that people can actually do it right so Ray's chicken all based on no basically water onion water but you know but then there's a middle know so it could be for example of orange saffron and then a top note which could be tarragon right so that is a top middle base where you have your your depth

you know the thing holding it down which is the the stew and all those things locking together you have this middle note which connects with like maybe a little bit of anise flavor is a little bit of orange and then the the sharp Tarragona the top which kind of lips it up but it could also be with carrots is your base right and then you need a middle that maybe is miso and maybe a top that's like like some lunch or something so relative right so if you think about playing a piano or anything right musical instrument you can have a cord where the the sea is very high or very low but there were the relationship between top middle and base is what's important.

I passed a static these always has to be this conceptual Eli going to beans for a second like you're going to go like Mexican you're going to have like a certain ones like you're going to have like OS onto or something inside the bean

an herb like that although it's very on its own me and even if you're if you know it's there it's very itself you know what I mean

yet it seems to me to be part of the baseness of the being so it's like so mentally even though something I just want trying to get you when you're thinking about it it seems like it's not just like the herb is going to function as a top note in this case because some herbs can be part of the base aspect of a to write so it's said that what you're talking about is this kind of magical transforming Fidelity that's like kind of at the heart of of the the transformative effective of cooking which is that something fine and so this is a big thing that he can probably speak to this more cuz she is more versed in it then I am but each

every plant I mean all things but especially plans with chives hundreds of aromatic molecules they like we we call it Nature's original flavor is so the way that if you look at the composition of an herb is put together the B2 three things that the top aromatic molecules that are dominant with a ton of other stuff but it could be something way way down as .00 5% that makes you know a nerve what it is and it could be that share similar top two or three but then slightly different ratios so how you mix things together how they bind together makes things what they are so that's just more than one ingredient so each ingredient contains a multitude so the way we describe his facets right so you have a predominant flavor but then you have these houses they could be floral they could be peppery

pain in in the case of the the beans and the there's some connection that happens with those facets that makes it bind together is what yeah and we were talking so it sticks out a little bit on top right you can recognize it but then something else kind of dovetails into the beans and make something that wasn't there before and that's kind of like how to anticipate that how to build on it and how to actually plan for it is one of the things that we tried to talk about the book flavor related questions into 718-497-2128 that's 718-497-2128 so you want to talk about the four weeks ago

color yellow

me yellow Daredevil

hello hello hi

big yes hey what's up baby Station Philadelphia how you guys doing today how you doing

I'm all right, I'm a twenty-year-old line shop and I was just wondering if you guys have any suggestions on where what like food City's I should move to because I'm kind of stuck in a rut where I am trying to break out as my

learn and move to accept so first some caveats are you do you want to stay in the United States of America or no

doesn't matter well I'm going to let I'm going to let Dan like I've lived in New York since like forever so I'm a huge New York guy so I'm going to step away from my New York microphone here for a minute and let Daniel take this so you're in Philadelphia now

is around here in Philadelphia now is that what you're saying my personal opinion is that there's good food everywhere I from what Philadelphia has a great scene in a lot going on so one thing I would say is or wonder is How Deeply you explored you know your own environment cuz I think a lot of people doing a lot of different kinds of things not necessarily those things you might see in magazines and stuff like that but there's a lot going on and I'm beyond that I think everywhere has something to offer it's more like culture do you want to live with in the kind of people you want to be around and kind of people you want to cook for so those are the things that I would think about but no matter where you go like food is about people and then so however you connect two people that's that's like the most important that would you like going to place it has like major like there's obviously places that are known for having a boat ton of people who are working hard in the in the food industry right like New York San Francisco Descanso you have places that are known for good ingredients

yeah places that are known for one particular lifestyle of one particular style of food or one for one particular kind of restaurant or evening or like it's it's like I like you almost prefer a constraint right I mean I can say it's like it's like a rather be like you only have this stick in this fire let's see what you can do with it and so I think what you saying is it's almost like your your location is kind of like that like you're where you are is kind of like that now I will say though that I think it's extremely helpful not that I get to do it that often but the travel around and tastes a lot of food go to a lot of places especially you know if you come from like an Eastern Seaboard kind of reality where you attended believe that kind of all there is is kind of what you see in life it's a huge advantage to go like taste other people's stuff tastes other people's and it is helpful I think tool

who is the best at XYZ like I hate to say it like West Coast still the best coffee place. Stayed in like learning about what's oppression in going on in coffee has the best coffee and food place best coffee best place to go to learn about coffee after the witness but I think it's like if you want to go to a particular restaurant like I had a guy I used to work with it went out to California to work for you you know what I mean like when my king win years ago and I think it is useful to find someone that you think is interesting and go to work for that particular person rather than working for a particular place because I think you can learn a lot

about you even in uno mean I guess the chef and you probably says that you know how long you want someone to devote to you like a year at least

yeah and you know but but like I got out of this day today shops in a couple years ago and so many my opinions are changed a little bit but I think the most important thing is whatever you do commit yourself to 100% And it's not about a time it's about like are you going to open your heart to this are you going to are you going to listen are you going to contribute are you going to learn it because if you do not sure we'll stay there long time I think what do you think about when you get somewhere and you realize that whoever you're working with you don't respect him anymore to get out right now with it and just say this isn't the place for me give a proper notice move on doing it just cuz you're lazy or right I mean that's the main thing like actually if you're lazy we definitely

cellarius

should I continue talking to us a call or question what's your favorite place in Philly

solo so when Daniel talked about nature being the original flavors I have these little examples for it for you guys and then you can you discuss money or so inside of every we have this thing in the book called the flavor Compass which is really part of my world which is the aroma essential oil Rich ingredients that people use for cooking with don't really take up a lot of real estate on the plate but are incredibly important for flavor so those are the flowers the herbs the Citrus in the spices and people usually turn to those and think of those is something's really going to create flavor and I think they often think of them with a very broad brush and it kind of interchangeability so we made this flavor Compass to kind of really delineate the differences in flavors between things that are very near each other like the differences between the herbs

things I found in perfume is really picking the specific thing you want like lemon over lime or or basil over tarragon and then taking that basil and putting it together with another flavor and thinking very creatively about it but it change what you're doing not just any Citrus not just any spice and also a lot of the spices that make it to the market or depleted of their essential oils are very very keen on telling people stick their fingers in them and see if they're finger smells like stick their if they can touch them and and smell the ingredient how important that is and so in nature pure clove I think it's like important to make sure it smells like a club so one of the one of the things that I brought for y'all to smell is it's just within which is within one species like basil of which there are many different kinds of Basil certain ones are much more spicy and certain ones are much more floral so sweet basil which is what most people think of all the time and they use

is it has a very large amount of going to run a molecule called Lynn a little and little old is kind of I don't know if he'll talk to you about little bit it's very important to him a little is the floral Aroma that's in so many herbs a lot of times if you're using an urban orbis gone to flower the linaloe on their is making it much more floor also in a certain way you already using florals and the other hand Thai Basil has a lot of eugenol which is the main Aroma molecule and cloves so I just wanted you two can just to smell the difference between the two Basil's but then about their operating faster which is what we call it which would then lock with something else and make your dish more spicy or more floral so some of your sweet basil has a huge does

practical standpoint you know this is very esoteric and you're talking about Aroma molecules but the reality is that you know if you know but something has more of a floral component listen to say you're doing some with Meyer lemon do you want to do something with basil you're going to pick the basil that has more of a floral component that will lock with the the floor of the Meyer lemon or maybe you have something like really sweet and flat like orange you might want to take something spicier so knowing those kind of components allow for either kind of something is consonant or something that's kind of different but either way you're doing it consciously it's annoying a little bit how things are put together you know kind of let you also with substitutes for egg what's the worst question you've ever get when you're writing a recipe what can I substitute for that way you can substitute this recipe for another recipe

I think I'm going to use that from now on can I use that as long as I credit you identified as a substitution idea of a thinking about ingredients as having facets and thinking about those facets is locking together is what creates flavor and just having that key just having that tool and thinking that way will impact the whole way you think about cooking and the whole way you think about creating flavor for a minute because it is interesting it's also interesting kind of what you chose because

it is part of its specific structures like I always think about like what what a Cook's toolkit is like where they where are they going where's their head at like what are they what are they reaching for right yes cuz there's whole groups of people that don't really cook with Citrus at all right now that got it they unless their food sucks to have to have some sort of something to brighten it up but it's interesting that like and you know like you guys like I'm reaching for the Citrus because you know I have access to it all year round now and like it's there even though I live in New York and on California by the way the Citrus in California is freaking ridiculous the peels the citrus peels in California are preposterously good so like the fruit like you know like if you'd like if it's okay you don't I mean like like if you're going to get like a pomelo or something like that yeah okay it's like all past but like the pills out of California are just freaking gorgeous and smell amazing.

where all the oils are if you stick your finger in always so I can put a Magic Band at grocery stores and if I ever was like really successful they see me coming they like say put up like garlic but if you stick your finger into the peel of any Citrus you will have the oil right on your fingers where's the juice is different it has some but not like the pills so my grandma used to get the chocolate sample boxes and she would push her freaking thumb through the bottom of every love her regain her handy love you

is there such a thing though they're all filled with him like this you get to find out what's inside without having to go through the top and even just quietly put it back if you want to take a quick break and I'll take a call

hi I am calling about a question for a wedding I'm calling because I have a great idea I've heard too discreet to punch bowl of orbits at our wedding and sun to orbit stop existing about 20 years ago how do I make my own very first thing I would do is do exactly what the person you're getting married to says to do regarding your principal that's the very first orbits the the recipe I don't remember whether published a Martin lyrics published the recipe for Orbitz but CP Kelco who makes gel an orbit is a gel and trick CP Kelco release the recipe of a number of times what it is is is the the balls are gel and balls primarily Lewisville jail and balls that are suspended in a very light

Joanne fluid gel and the trick of it is this the density first all the balls need to be small and you can set Joann into very small balls just like you would drop agar presuming you have a a good enough sequestrant so that and you make the base of that you don't have kind of any kind of free calcium in your liquid at all you can make a straight gel and ball much like you making out and I'll Jeanette ball if you want to make those things which I don't and then the major major major trick here is one you're going to want to store those balls in colored fluid until just before the of the same relatively isotonic fluid right up until right before hand and rinse them off so they don't bleed into your liquid and the other thing is the density of the balls has to almost exactly match the density of the fluid dry I don't mean the thickness

construe is density and texture is the same thing a density is just wait for volume texture is how thick something is so you need almost exactly the same density so same sugar levels saying everything in order to get the float the problem with it is that if you're just picking up with it with a way that you can get it to spend is not a problem but it's the surface of orbits out of a bottle and so you never saw the surface of it and a nice big glass coming up but it's got a Santa Claus jingling bowl full of Jelly Belly kind of a situation going on on the surface and it's possible to not have that they also dope it with a slight slight bit of xanthan so it's an and and gel in but if if you are spouse-to-be does not wish you to do this

don't do it because it's just a nightmare you know when you should do it you should do it on your first anniversary

alright alright man I've been married I've been married 22 years now and like most times that I said I'm just going to do it I regret it I was going to say that and you know what I mean most of times when I'm like I realize that I should not do this this is not even Jesse marriage is just in life in general most of the time when I when I know beforehand that it's going to cause problems and I do it anyway I sometimes I'm like no this is going to be great and then like I do it and like I was like see that was great but most of time I'm like man they were right I was should not have done that thank you for the answer and I'm but I wouldn't work for confirmation of something

we need like like what well chocolate bars are best stored in a low and a low humidity cool environment cuz they think is when you freeze a chocolate bar it's going to get a lot of condensation on as it comes up to unless it's like vacuum wrapped or something like this I don't really know if you guys know that chocolate bars last long enough to need to require this has a specific one he wants to keep it for the wedding like maybe he was gifted some like you need a chocolate bar and he wants to stay up for The Wedding Pact Wine Cellar it'll be fine just don't let it go through a lot of temperature fluctuation so it blooms out

roasted use it right away that's that's the correct answer all right so

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and we are back Maddie Otto and Daniel Patterson what's the name of that author who writes a million books has a similar name that writes like novels what's that there's a Patterson that right it's like a Botana novels change James Patterson you ever get confused for him no keys for Tom Arnold yes all the time I wish that would mean that I was confused for anyone that would mean that somebody cared so I want to hit like a Cuppa tea party violence in a minute but I want to do a couple of things one I want to talk about the flavor industry a little bit because I know there's some serious issues here Mandy especially has some bones to pick with them and so what will get into it

one is a recipe that just jumped out at me so hard that I have to talk up to ask and talk about it and it's carrots and coffee it's so it's very rare that you see a recipe where you're like what you don't even you're like what they do and then you like you like have to go and you have to look at it so I'll set it up right so you get your turn on your oven to 350 right you wash but you not peel your carrots correct do you dry them

no it didn't matter do you oil them oil them right at Salt them now here's can you put it into a baking dish but before you put into the baking dish you line the bottom of the baking dish with whole roasted coffee beans you then cover the dish so it's sealed in a fact which means that presumably as you roast for the next at 350° for the next 45 minutes to an hour or something like that you're not going to get to you're not going to get too dark and not going to lose that much moisture cuz they're sealed in right so this is just struck me is like the craziest like like not crazy but just like I haven't seen this before so why you talk about this recipe where it like did it did it come from the restaurant is it something you guys discussed what was that

Tim and said that recipe that was a fun one I was actually cooking with Rene redzepi from Noma restaurant it was in my house it was for a magazine article in 2011 and we did like I don't know 1518 recipes over two days together and and at one point we bought a squash read the winter squash smell like turban squash or something and I really had his hand and I was but coffee machine because we were both drinking coffee constantly and Enzo's crying cock and he looks me somewhere we do with this and I just looked at the coffee and I looked a mess of coffee and then he said why do we bury in coffee beans and so we did and it was pretty magical the way that the coffee infused into this car so then I took the back and started roasting I thought will how can I adapt this and so we did it with baby carrots and Renee went back to know my start burying things and and spices

to the general idea of bearing something and roasting it in an aromatic environment is this kind of magical things what happens over the time is the softening of the fiber in the in the steaming that happens creates this this environment in which the carrot which is kind of sweet and earthy locks with a the coffee which is Earthly and bitter and create something that's neither keratin or coffee so these things happen all the time but this particular one was just like crazy that's the definition of right there which is where you put two things together and very simple two things and that they're there their Aroma and flavor locks together to create something that's just fantastic it's very simple as being a locking and steamy these other people like a lot of times nowadays omit the Citrus allium herb inside of a chick

when they roasted even though it perfumes the entire meet us at people's kind of sucks I feel people been skipping that recent they don't put anything into the bird to let the Aromas come through as a rose and a text message for like 30 seconds or like I have a line Track Shack boom it's perfume it's kind of like bleed over into my area is perfume so how much coach carry of the coffee into the carrot is there like a lot is really interesting because literally the Karen and the coffee both lose their individual identity to become something else right so to the chicken at stuffed with your your time and your your your citrus what's going to happen is if a roasted chicken flavor that has this under layer of this perfume of citrus and time in this case those two things merge completely and give

their individual identity to create a new identity so that something is fundamentally different that's like someone ikola exactly that's exactly right which was true in your fantastic exhibit but that that's a thing that goes on in perfume a lot of times and perfume there's this idea of you know can you pick out the notes at I think I've always thought that was kind of who cares I think when something comes together it becomes Shalimar become Chanel Number 5 Shalimar what's up 70s

or if he comes from really fantastically flavored roast chicken that's what happens when you create flavor and that's a concept that the two of us put into the book to kind of be a guideline of something to think about

nice my mom is Shalimar so tell me about the cola Cola is I'm going to get it wrong but like one of the things we did the museum we work with a flavor house so we're going to get to get into Mandy going after I flavor house in a minute but it was so I forget Which Wich cinnamon relation it is it's like it's probably like but all actual essential oils oil orange oil cinnamon and vanilla and vanilla right and you smell each one of them individually and they don't they don't actually smell like the reference to the essential oils we should probably also talked about don't always smell like their reference but I think Citrus oils don't smell a hundred percent like they're referent because they're not they're not expressed right then it must change or something I don't know summer cold press summer distilled the cold pressed and distilled are different Cobra smells like the referent it does

so then you press all four together and you're like oh and it doesn't smell like any of that doesn't smell like any of the ones individually and itching their they're all a their actual product they're not like they're not synthetics that right there actual problem

when did when did the cocaine drop out of coke I don't remember but it was a quite a quite a while but there's a lot you know medicinal the lot of that really only survives in the in the drink round like a lot of the old like medicinal drinks which tastes frankly horrible but you know are now revered or lights for their taste this thing I was talking to people about things in general you learn to like what you like things that tastes horrible the first time you taste them for some reason you learn to Crave them I still have figured I have to talk to scientists about that or like yes I have an explanation and I don't know whether it's because I've been drinking but I can never remember an explanation that I can give to somebody else to say why things that are kind as strictly speaking horrible like why we end up craving them so much flavor connects to experience right so what you smell and taste connects to what you you you feel

you know and remember so that's just kind of our hardwired right so that if you if we get together once a week and we have this great time we eat something is really not very good but it's it's surrounded by his feelings of of love and contentment write 10 years from now you might be looking back at that and say I love that does you don't know if that's what you really love is what a creative but then those two things merge overtime so in fact you actually do like straight-up they're not really well-made cakes but I like them because they are Twinkies I mean think about like the pic of this great test back I don't know quite a while ago between wine right so he blind taste wine and people say what they like and don't like and then they do it again the next day where they can see the labels and of course I'd like to suck the Coke Pepsi thing right of course they change their their opinions but was really interesting as they tracked brain activity into the part of the brain that that registers pleasure lit up with one

wine when I was blind and let up with the other wine when it was because of a brand so it's not just because things taste good it's because of all of this other stuff going on in our brains but we try to do in the book is to kind of take it out of the the cultural and in larger context and bring it down to like what is Flavor how does it act cuz the other stuff the cultural stuff and then what you're talkin about man there's a lot of books on that small out of the Yale extractor you guys should talk to her she does a lot of like an MRI as a people while they're tasting and eating in like seeing how that affects what's going on in interesting stuff so your Nextbook should you should you ever choose to write another one

I can go on forever for the stuff I read the weather's get to that depart so they got the four what are the four main rules that happened about Midway in the book right before four main rules you have for working I'm going to spoil a little bit it's like a lot of Yin and Yang don't go which is how like Lifeworks you're like you know don't go too much that way don't see much that like it was really interesting right so we we reached a lot of these moments in the book where we're like dead n dead end you know we rewrote this thing so many times like it's a miracle it even got published and this one moment where we couldn't figure out this bridge between one place another time went back and I looked at all my old recipes like I did I do that and in those basically everything I've ever done is one of those four things now these are primary indicators of Direction they tell you generally where to go but not specifically so the something like the flavor Compass will tell you should I pick lemon or lime

please tell you I need to brighten it so that the I didn't so the rule number one is that things are close together let's say potato and leek that's kind of it's comforting it's wonderful it's kind of boring so they need something to do to spark them something that's different Counterpoint I think the Counterpoint black olive anchovy whatever that's one and since I already said that spoils going to balance out contrasting elements need unifier see the bridge between a heavy things need a lift

and light things heavy is it like a lot of times where this gets me is like so after those either never I don't know how to write a recipe or come up with something specifically for an event like literally typically you have like a set of parameters what you're working with and you think out the dish first and then you mentally think about this stuff ahead of time but what's interesting is a lot of these rules are applied after you do your primary mental work so you're doing your primary mental Works have the main structures I thought about you like that needs sums as raw onions on top that needs but I hit it with some zesty mean so it's like oh this hit it with some cream to buy in that sucker together and drop it down but like don't you find that a lot of those rules

I would almost always you're applying that after you've already gone through your main mental structure of figuring out what's going to happen or no I mean like you you think about them all the way you never want to go out of balance while you're cooking but it's always at the end I find the correct in things like that and I don't think it happens at the end I think it happened to Midstream so I think you start in and that's what we really trying to do is stop the dance if you think that's making flavor is a dynamic this stops it stops the motion to think about it in the middle of it it just get to the end I ain't that happened earlier on we are starting in with the potatoes in the leaks you got that so that's a maybe ahead of it and then you think what am I going to do with this picture not totally the end yet either so it's kind of stopping that thought process long enough to be able to have something to hold onto and think about particularly if you're like standing at a farmers market standing

a grocery store and thinking okay I like this and I like this but what am I going to do with it you haven't started cooking but your cooking mean your head so Dave but let's cook a dish right now I don't know in Korean

Clash okay what kind of squash zucchini ige decide in and out what we can do with this piece of garbage okay so you gave me zucchini and you give me a joke

what year was Dave canyons are going to make it into a soup then you go and then but then you've created this thing and then you're thinking about cooking right so you're like wow those who can you really doesn't taste like much so I got to take some of the water out of it so I'm going to roast it over high heat right before it goes into the soup and then I'm going to think about flavoring that liquid right so I'm going to take onion and bacon cooker together add maybe a little white wine maybe water and then I got to put this concentrated zucchini and right so then you get to the end of something that has a little more power but it's kind of dark and deep right so I need something to do lemons maybe you're going to say I'm going to take a zucchini I'm going to mix it with you know black olives lemon and then a shitload of herbs and I'm going to drop that in the middle and then I think I want a little bit of lactic something writes a little compressor on it

can I have the dish and so that's really going to punch him and I was like a crunchy almond time I saw yeah but I mean I think that the acts like where you get to the synthesizer section of it or the mixing board sex when they have what is the is if they use the language of music is called in Oregon right that kind of like final synthesis of the of the book at the end of like operational of the set of dial do the seven dials sweet sour salty bitter Umami at fat and add spice like as in Chile heat right so when you get to the end the dishes almost done but it's like a song that hasn't been mix down a little bit of salt a little bit of lemon maybe you need some fat around something out and this is also how you fix things to get

Rihanna and it's a little bit or it's a little sweet this is how you bring it into your own language into your own style into the last chapter in the book is about how to use these things and how they interact with each other that salt pulls up acidity pushes Down Sweet all of that kind of stuff so that last chapter is like a how do you perfect things and be how do you save things cuz that's really most of what I cooked us what's the most unstable thing if you put on the gravy and that's where we learn about burying but thanks for coming on the book is the art of flavor it's put out by Riverhead head press the the greatest call Penguin and thanks for coming guys I'll see you next time I'm cooking issues

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