Cooking Issues Transcript

Episode 286: Wrapped in Plastic

this episode is brought to you by Jewel the emergent circulator for sous-vide by chefsteps order now at joule

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every Tuesday at 12:45 for a k a dinosaur in the booth we have Victor Victor how you doing before I forget what I like pretty much everything like we talked about last show I'm Brazilian so we kind of talked about rice and beans but you know that's like a Middle Eastern food my girlfriend is Lebanese so I really love Lebanese food the leader of the Museum of food and drink

what you prefer to be hate to love Nick Wong currently at what's your current title there at the MoMA for the Soundbar using Chef De Cuisine billion years ago a billion years do you stop a bunch of other places and working in California so if you have any questions about working in San Francisco or in marked and unmarked or you know here in New York he's also been mistaken many times for David Chang C A widely known fact among your friends Miss Miss recognized as Dave Chang so he just runs with you

nephew menus yeah you're like you're like tonight you're all so you're like the body double and so it comes to assassinate Dave they're going to take you down pretty well interesting ly different ethnicities and Dave about Star Wars Victory mansions in. So do you guys remember that old 24-hour Lebanese joint on house in a closed down recently bereket all I ever used to go there they would be screaming the same order constantly for that like you had this affected just like kind of Lebanese Pizza like thing on Amazon cheeseburger cheeseburger cheeseburger from the what to call from Saturday Night Live

turn on the phone how you doing Chris I'm great how are you doing all right so I guess we got a full group of people we got a bunch of questions and you want it you want to do any sort of picture pre-roll here Chris

yeah if you haven't gotten to know you should go to chefsteps. Calm and check it out and we're going to have some really cool new updates coming for juul owners in the very near future I'm really excited I can't talk about it yet but Douglas Baldwin a bunch of the math guys have been doing some really cool stuff so and as have the app team so there will be major new updates for those of you who are two letters coming out in April jewel is the immersion circulator by chefsteps and you run it via smartphone Android or what's it called Apple the one I have and your iPhone or you can use Alexa with this you can do it all voice control the hand pretty which is great when your hands are covered with do I've actually seen that I saw freaking Kenji lopez-alt go literally was like Alexa turn on my juul to 57° C in

I somehow fell asleep and woke up on a different planet. I mean it's like but yes I did actually works I saw it in the Alexa turned on from a very small form factor and basically like waterproof with a magnet on it so you don't need to worry about you know you don't need to worry about my circulators have water damage in the electronic areas and I used to have to tell people all the time how to mitigate the disaster that happens when that idiot drops the circulator into the bucket which mean how many times have you seen that happen I've seen worse happen to circulators Nursery right walk away I come back like 30 minutes later he's not the entire thing and plastic entire circulator is just wrapped up in plastic along with all the water and it's just steaming out

and killing itself well that's that's amazing I love that but isn't this what you say you like both of you have your pedigree with let us a Mercurial folk in the kitchen right you know cuz you know Chris was you know many years ago was running the fat duck kitchen what was your title there you were also or you will you will you shut the casino where you want to research side what was your title of it safe to say people get agitated at the their right is that like for some people that like Hyper bike I get it you have to be hyper on edge and Aunt when you're a perfectionist and everybody can screw it up and everyone has to be on point all the time but you didn't even

go ahead and they're so frightened because of the way everyone asked but they like I will just literally follow and I will not ask cuz if I ask I will be decapitated and then you get this kind of crap happening I wonder whether your food actually ends up more ruined than not because you freaked the hell out of that person as soon as they show up in the door what do you guys think

but my personal thought is

the more you can get some relax the better off we'll do with when it comes to food famously like Nick Wong went to his first million years ago like totally messed up the family meal like ruin it like burnt it like crispy crispy ruined burnt like so Christy just prefer in a picture in your head like a couple Hotel pans of braised with a liquid run out

she got that in your head so it's like to be in the kitchen that day and so normally you would get completely eviscerated for something like that but Chang happened to catch the look of horror on Nick's face as he opened the thing and realize that there was so much internal self-punishment happening they like any external punishment would it be Superfluous that's what you wanted people that like like internal of self-abuse that's what is self loathing self-abuse self-abuse self-loading thing you don't I mean that's why I feel so what do you want me to be a good cook like if they're like super the reason I think that she has hate super confident people isn't that just at their snot nose right and like and likes think they know more than

it said they don't give off the feeling that they're punishing themselves enough you know what I'm saying

thank you got it you got it what you want that punishment that self-punishment

it shows in the daycare but I think you need to apply for a lot less external punishment if you can engender in people are fine people who will punish themselves that are reliable and it push themselves the problem is you know you're mostly dealing with like 19 to 25 year olds and some people having a lot of people at 19225 or flaky and not worth your time so like that's the challenge is like sorting out that the ones who were going to work versus the ones you're just going to flake out do you think you can actually think that you can take someone who doesn't have that sort of internal drive and actually get that drive into them or is it just your like winning or losing on the margins based on what's already there when they show up you could teach skills you can teach a lot of things you can teach kitchen etiquette you could teach all of

can you really teach someone to give a crap or it mean I was being surrounded by other people to give a crap helps people to give a crap more and if you're even someone who's comes in giving a crap if everyone around a joke or they stop giving a crap but can you really train someone to give a crap

doesn't mean you stop trying

what do you think Chris would say My Success with that is pretty marginal these days I don't have the time for it so if you're not going to care I'm not going to invest my time and how about this how about training obviously people show up and they don't have skill and they can acquire skill right but you did you meet people you know that XYZ persons never going to get fast you know what I'm talking about because we don't have this I kind of sense of urgency do you think you can train sense of urgency in the kitchen

yeah I think that's I think that's that's learnable if you if you care I mean you know I remember when I first got to the fat duck is a stock share I was like so in over my head I was always in the weeds but I came earlier I say later I put the time and then people help people who help themselves so you can learn speed comes your ability to be fast comes with practice your ability to understand that the food needs to get out right now

yeah I don't think I love you all come into the kitchen so she knew people like they don't have that sense of urgency they don't understand why it is and then it's up to you to explain to them why it's important and to show them like listen everybody else is running circles around you and your dragon the rest of the team down so

pick it up or else we got to find something other than prison mentality you know what I mean there's got to be some non prison mentality way this is just me right but I like to cheat on my staff as individuals try to figure out what makes them tick when she finally what makes them tick and you make that connection it's a lot easier to get them to do what you want cuz now I can I do what you want they do what they want to do which also aligns with what you want them to do a lot of patience right I mean that kind of like yeah I mean the prison mentality thing comes with the low pay and then need to get everyone up and operational quick but it's just I think it's really long one pernicious

I think it's a long one pernicious don't like it do you want it over wrapped the jewel to Jewel would not have any problems with that theoretically you can dish wash it right you don't tell people you can but you see right if we can right if we didn't go to the regular certification to say this thing is like submersible and and frankly we don't think that's a great idea but if you drop it in the water if you don't think if you do it in a dishwasher that's not going to break a stupid ass thing to do but it's not going to break it break

you know what we do the three foot drop test and it survives pretty well so if you kick a shift in the chest it'll be okay till you're probably going to end up going to prison for assault maglites that used to be like the flashlight that you could beat the crap out of people with it. Ford diesel you know Maglite that's exactly what I was going for when we designed it I want it that sort of sturdiness you could clock somewhere over the head with it so you don't need to have the baseball bat behind the bar like we always do. You can just block them at the end of juul is very nicely machine metal thing money in those those parts aren't going to think that's sweet

basically sub-assemblies that you get from other people where is the Julia to be interesting kind of Step of a kind of custom engineering everything for maximum density almost like an iPhone mentality of design you know what I mean and out of 37 parts and Jubal the only off the shelf part is it is what is the single screw that's inside it so yeah everything's custom engineering manufacturing process and the robots that build it so we kind of went overboard this month so I got to Shanghai in Suzhou and all over so yes I was visiting the robot army and I want more robots Foodtown I get to go to Shenzhen when I go to China. Descendants bad people it's mean but it's no Shanghai

wow so like if you're going to compare Shenzhen to a US city what would it be


sales are going to plummet now in Texas but it's cute all of those cities are absolutely massive and it's hard to get a sense of state of New York City New York City wouldn't be that big of a city by by China standards not swallow it and it's chaotic and people are busy like building shed and garages and everything so I don't know I guess it's like Detroit during the Glory Days of manufacturing cars that we can't get anything built here Chris and give her try to get something built in New York City such a nightmare in France which was which was my unenviable task at the fat duck oh my God

New York anyway you want us to be related oriented thingamajig or any sort of Jewel related thingamajig which I guess is a wait at 718-497-2128 so Carlos

first I hope all is well with you and that's why I love you if you hate yourself I love you hope all is well and enjoyed my trip to El Paso I did we we need to talk that much either Juarez is actually pretty cool even though no one goes there me like Juarez is like not mean war is like if you're going to take Shenzhen or Juarez I will take what I say if I want to Juarez then they do it yet Peter was also with me more as well as a good time right The Velvet David painting capital of the world for a long time he likes all the pennies Nick Wong

yes Chris are you a fan of all the paintings of my entire house is outfitted with velvet paintings of Elvis OK or fat into the bag when cooking with an immersion circulator my main question and the Chris think about this cuz I don't know if you thought about this my main question is about Flavor dilution in his guide to sous vide steak Kenji lopez-alt says he tested with olive oil and butter and that they diluted the flavor by pulling fat-soluble flavor compounds from the aromatics and the beef into the bag liquid which is in typically discarded accuracy his chicken breast post doesn't mention adding fat at all and only discussing at aromatics however in his halibut and Salmon Post he does say that I have a bit of Flesh absorbs flavor better than land need an adding fat will present A prevent multiple questions from fusing together meanwhile now we're talkin about you it's just that guy's priest of fat should always be added to the bag it seems their main reasons for this a presentation no corner of the bag

before me the food away from the salmon it seems kind of obvious especially with regard to flavored Evolution thanks again looking forward to the next Booker and Dax in the low temp low point of view first of all I've never done a triangle test with meat that has had no like butter in it versus not I will say this but not true I've done it with oil like out like heavily flavored oil definitely adds a flavor to things like salmon there's no freaking question that it's true but on a steak I've never really noticed a difference in the taste of a state between with butter or without butter I've also tasted the butter of that I've used and it will have used from the bag and yes it will take on your your whatever Rosemary or your garlic or any of that onions aliens will pick up it doesn't taste especially meaty

Vitamix very very not a big believer that you're going to dilute the flavor of your meat overly much with that oil I just don't buy it and Kenji specifically doesn't mention that he did a triangle test it was more I think kind of theoretical and him thinking that this was an effect I will say this if you're using the Zippy technique to put CO2 fill your bat you need oil because you need something that's liquid it's in the bag straight you need it and we are doing a hard vacuum in a vacuum bag unless your product is Frozen the bags going to squish the hell make ugly pillow shapes on your beat if you don't have some sort of fat in the bag and that really is the only reason to do it other than you have this fat left over that you can use for for other things except you to be able to disagree but I'm going to go yeah I didn't get triangle fast so whenever a meteor

I'm in here at least suspicious here's the other thing that I that I know that were adding flavor or Flavour that's not really true what the sensory scientist have shown is what he was a really good at is detecting how quickly the aroma aromatic molecules the rate of change like how quickly goes from zero to a hundred back to zero we don't detect absolute concentration that you can pull all of the sticky flavor out and deluded into the butter that's like the concentration we're going to go down a bit when you bite it at stake and start shooting at the rate of flow the rate of change. Steaky flavors going to go through the roof no matter what so I'm pretty skeptical I'm willing to do the triangle test but I think the benefits of better. It's having some fats in the bag that I can use to make a pan sauce I think that outweighs any

but you're somehow reducing the media impact of the statement 100% true that if you eat without any sort of liquid fat that distorts and makes ugly shapes on the meat and it's also a hundred percent true that if you could mitigate that by vacuuming less but then you have air pockets which light can make little nasty you ever notice how sometimes with a air pocket especially when your temperature too pretty low and there's oxygen touching to me you'll get a weird discolored area where the air pocket was Chris doesn't really matter cuz you going to post your it but I just don't like it because that that color also indicates that there is possible a nation going on there which does actually affecting whatever I know it's not that's not a big deal either so I'm not going to make a big point about how I don't like it with your using Zippy's which is 99.9% of what I do you using Zippy's then you have to have fat I will say this though I do it the other way a lot like if I buy meat that's already in the cryo

Chris you can get really mad at me like if I don't have a lot of time I'll just toss the freaking Market Crile into the into the circulator and go with it I know I probably shouldn't yet I did I do especially if you're just trying to get dinner on the table I don't let Perfection be the enemy of like done there you go there you go you're going to get a high-value what's at like higher-end like butcher's are pre-portioned from the supplier so if you're getting like the lafrieda or to brag or one of these like weird piemontese cuts or any one of these things a lot of those like that the rims the strips and the porterhouse is come pre-portioned in the cryo and I'll tell you this is true things that are in cryo not frozen things I actually did a test recently of from Frozen in Crock from store cryo but maybe a couple tests but there is something in a let in what nicely called wet-aged let's

let's give it a nice term wet aging right and everyone here knows it when you open a Crile bag on fresh meat that has got that Crile bag smell to it Christian favorite smell in the world and so I tested that like the Searing knocks that stuff out it's no longer perceptible as long as it's not bad it's no longer perceptible never been several scientific studies on the smell of cryo bags cryovac meat when it comes out and all of them have shown fairly rigorously that having it out of the bag for a while just 30 minutes out of the bag without cooking will remove that smell but searing it knocks it out so don't worry overly much about that what you agree or disagree Chris I'm actually wondering if those smell of those smell the aromatic molecules actually reactor in tyranny actually get a better that she heard from that I've never

maybe they're like they're like mild anaerobic bacterial bull crap is what they are like non spoilage bacteria bull crabs forward you the papers I'd love to see the papers we should call it and meet cozy and make it a thing from you on everything is going to come on so we have to talk about it we got to call her call are you on the air

hey do you have to do is doing all right when you got for us all right I'm going to wedding cake and I wanted to be a little bit thicker than I normally would make it but they're looking for something a little less rich and a little less sweets I've already reduce the sugar and I'm wondering what kind of jelly didn't he might recommend for something a little bit looser than like a Jello consistency by the slice and not run I'm going to have to kind of keep the yolk and sugar level down so I don't like Chris cuz Chris did a bunch of experiments on Courage for modernist cuisine back in the day so I'm going to let him try them in a second I will say this anytime someone says they want they probably don't actually have a referent in their head like lemon curd in certain tart applications is incredibly sweet but other lemon curd or not that sweet at all but whatever I mean like

I don't like thinking a lot about having to worry about Custer's if they're right or wrong if I'm doing a one-off so in general I just like I just cheat and I'll probably would probably use something like like I'll probably just fluid jealous cuz that's what I that's just the way I would probably gel and fluid gel it but Chris probably has an actual way to make the country were Chris what do you think like fluid yellow totally working this this was the fat jack again I'd be busting up the gel antacid and you know fluid yelling it up but you know it's cold but pectins going to be easy and it's got great flavor lease and you know it's readily available and if you really want to go low sugar which is going to meet us going to be sour is hack you can get the low sugar pectin in grocery stores that they sell for like low-sugar jams and jellies

really nice. Do you have a recipe for that on chest dips anywhere custard not on chefsteps and I'm trying to pull up in history of some 2,200 page book that I was involved in there is going to be a lemon curd recipe in volume four in the fluid gel section but my recollection is it is it's going to be probably an agar fluid gel which isn't actually what I do now is just a little bit of experimenting and if you just stop

if you just basically followed with a jelly recipe and maybe cut the concentration of the pectin and 1/2 I think you're going to get something that is going to work for you you doing babe you're doing bacon place no like putting feeling baked inside

are you doing like a post injection or you doing like the Betty Crocker Style putting baked inside action thing where it like comes out of the oven with the with the crap inside of it saying if you want to go if you want to go you know try to tweak it out use a low-impact in village of the hell out of that thing and then it's going to stay like in people like the next ice age will come and go and your your pusher will be fine you don't remember. But not for the steam application if I'm making Meyer lemon curd and I want to scan it how would you recommend I boost the acidity that way it's a bit safer of the stuff

the citric acid acidity in Meyer lemon is Justin Moore it's like it's a less less aggressive amount of citric acid and there's no there minor other acidic constituents in lemon but meme citric acid off top of your head of Meyer lemon I do not want to pressure can it which I don't recommend you know I would I would add just a little bit of citric acid or if you don't want to go get pure citric acid just blend in some normal lemon juice to get the pH low enough that you cannot you can actually see we can and we got a bunch of content coming out in that but if you if you cook it in a jar right in the sous-vide bath you can you can actually pasteurize it long enough to make a shelf stable with sous vide and that way you don't have to go as high a temperature she's not going to get that that cook Citrus flavors much

is citric acid citric acid is like 100% acidity and they sell it in the stores I mean Food Lab has a Christmas joke about that and Michael hate. That's that's in stock right now right in stock right now it will be at your house within 3 days if you ask somebody who has a juul they can give you a referral coupon right from every app if they open the air even if you download the app and create an account you can get a referral coupon it'll save you twenty bucks if you order from

this episode is brought to you by the immersion circulator for sous-vide by chefsteps if your listen to get a kick-ass juicy steak and with Julie new suvi to approve chefsteps you can do so much more Smoky Tender Ribs good creamy ice cream all perfectly cooked every time this week and small enough to fit in your kitchen drawer and it's operated By An Elegant smartphone app that's been designed to remove the guesswork guess you cooking faster and give you the information and inspiration you want when you want it brown chefsteps amazing recipes and helpful guides choose your perfect done this for any meat and get notified when your food is ready so you can focus on sides and sausage or just pour yourself a cocktail and chill until you're ready for a delicious dinner for more information


and we are back but unfortunately for you guys and maybe fortunately I'm all reading another piece of advertisement to you decrease in the modernist Pantry family share your passion for experimentation and have everything you need to make culinary magic happen in your own kitchen professional chef home cooked food and no matter what your experience the pantry has something for you they make it easy to get the ingredients and tools you need and can't find anywhere else so that you can spend less time hunting and Gathering and more time creating memorable dishes and culinary experiences modernist Pantry. Com today to discover why cooking uses listeners call modernist Pantry the Kooks secret weapon at for free recipes tips and tricks and don't forget to follow me on social media to keep up with what is new and exciting in the world of culinary ingredients and tools

right now and if that wasn't enough advertising Peter Chang for the Museum of food and drink this is a great set update coming up on April 13th we have a good crew coming in got Gail Simmons hosting Marcus samuelson's cooking with God's Will and it's coming up on April 13th to in cocktails at 7:50 so it's not $7.50

oh yes only supports the exhibits and programs of the Museum of food and drink which is something that I think you care a little bit of apparently Nick Wong was featured on a documentary about Noma where they walk up to Nick long as part of the kitchen and there and he's chopping veg shopping veg attestation and the camera person in this made it into the documentary walks up put the microphone like at Nick's face doesn't look up you still chopping veg and the person goes to would you like to say something my wife like to work at no money goes nope and I keep slicing veg

this is food blogger named duck song video tour of Noma and then I'm still going to cut your head off this is not a good one for you all right you still there Chris from the I don't know whether it was while you were there I think I was perusing some of the old blog topics for modernist cuisine today and ran across an article on heat shocking produce so what they do is they they put into a bag or at least you don't need to feel like asparagus or asparagus is 2 or 3 minutes at at 131 Ave broccoli is like 78 minutes at like

117 after 2:47 C in cantaloupe is like 60 Minutes at like 50° C in the whole bunch of things that they recommend to kill off the enzymes and stuff like that for berries to preserve berries for longer so I can so what what do what do what do you think about that that we pulled it was looking at like how do you keep berries fresher for longer and you know I don't think the mechanisms were entirely understood I certainly don't think we exactly what the mechanisms were I don't know if the academic literature is resolved it but he's low temperature heat and so that could both accelerate ripening but it also seemed to accelerate sort of

the production of some of the chemical by-products that keep like any bacteria on the surface from rotting the fruit or veg and so you could take things like fresh berries briefly thermal shock them it pretty low temperatures like that enough to cook them or change their texture but all of a sudden they would have like a 6 or an 8-week shelf lights on your counter they're going to get a little they're going to get a bunch of molten and stuff growing on the pretty quick if you if you heat shock them you're essentially going to prevent that there is there going to be fine for a really long time in your fridge or even though you're weakening a lot of the molds and yeasts and surface bacteria is on the fruit and you're also sort of putting fruits in the metric system into overdrive so it can protect itself and a half for some fruit and veg it also accelerate the ripening so like melons and stuff

especially the cantaloupe and we tend to get in the United States that are as solid as a folder Bill soften up and get a lot more aromatic the fruitier which is a nice out come to an interesting flip side to that is the

the mango people tell me that it's so all mangoes that get imported into the us or or shipped across state lines to that matter have to go through a hot water cycle to kill any fruit fly larvae that are present and I don't remember what the exact temperature is a couple different procedure that don't know what they are but they say it's stops any further climacteric ripening

this is one of these things where that sort of Decay temperature below 50 degrees Celsius put that shit in some boiling water before you ship it anywhere be damned if the mango taste like shit in the US have to go down to Florida and Get It If the child right now to sell untreated mangoes because it's not crossing state lines you know well at least as far as

live in New York I guess that's not. Who knows I can get some crazy flute fruit fly I hate I mean like you know how Department of Health comes to Bar restaurant and if you use speed pours or even if you don't if they're not that smart they take flashlights and Flash them into the bottom of your bottles to make sure that you don't have fruit flies in your liquor bottles right you seen this so I want to actually get address Philly a culture going and fill a bottle with fruit flies and do a fruit fly infusion where the fruit flies have been raised on food grade food it's all food grade like everything is like clothes and his serve shots of like fruit fly look and see whether or not I get a point for each fruit fly in that bottle

that's like you know 8 million points against the restaurant there like sir I'm a damn I put the fruit flies in there on purpose you try to count him if you can't like what's the max number of points anyone ever received this would be like far enough that far in excess of that initially like I can have maybe 10 to the 5th points on my on my health inspection to be amazing right

what food has like I would have to like the argument would be like these a were raised in like you know completely closed culture environment on like you know sugar water from the Domino Sugar Corporation inside of an NSF certified holding tank chug the whole thing of fruit flies that's like a lot of liquor I would shake a cocktail with it and drink it and maybe do a shot you know you need to have a flavor I'm sure they do

sound of crickets have much of a flavor mean like anyone out there wants to try it let me know what happens when the health inspector shows up

by the way before I go to the next question see a Lopez did not realize that Star Wars characters are racist which one is the one you were imitating Peter You Can Do jar jar did you think I would like that I don't know what yes and he gave me because like you wish they had chosen a white guy to run class City what's wrong with you Star Wars Episodes 4 5 and 6 right basically I mean Darth Vader you know

use Force to don't you remember like that was not the deal I've altered the deal pray I don't alter it any further to buy SATA dachshund constantly what time is it in Return of the Jedi everybody is well known Star Wars has a lot of races there was a bunch of characters with where they have failed they're racist stereotypes by making them like they choose XYZ stereotype and turn it into an alien so it's cool he's being like everyone loves Chewbacca so much that I can't go on YouTube and look for Christmas special

no it's just like Christmas cookie Cookie Run rights in about curing temperature I'm in the process of converting a one chamber Arctic air refrigerator into a curing chamber I was asking questions in a charcuterie form online and one of the pros brought up the fact that he keeps his temperature in the in the mid-30s he says it while the meat takes longer to mature on the order of two to three times longer the final product has a superior taste this goes against the conventional wisdom of keeping the temps in the 50s hit a small following the backstage claims and I strongly leaning towards his method since then I can occasionally use the chamber as a regular refrigeration unit with my regular fridge is full I wanted to get your thoughts on this love the show Ron and IPS I was listening when you were asking for things people don't know how to cook low temp I know a lot of people who really intimidated when pan searing duck breast maybe you can come up with a way to guarantee a

be rendered skin with meat medium rare to Route using low temperature I'll hit the duck breast first I always do a 57 I do I do a 50 set 45-minute 57c on a duck breast and then for Christine you can use Chris's technique of buying a dog brush you still believe in the dog breath Chris I do but I was going to take the Super the super hack for for doing duck breast at home take them out take them out you know crash put them on something that's going to keep the skin really flat in the freezer and freeze them for about 30 to 45 minutes which is going to freeze the fat freezing since it's not going to freeze the meat all the way through a blast freezer take them out while they're frozen and just starts tearing them skin side down in a waiting them down from Frozen the basket Athol really quickly start rendering out the meats going to fall a lot more slowly and that's going to keep the meat from getting over cooked then back them up cooking sous-vide and then refresh the crust with a really quick like a 30 seconds to your in a wicked hot Cash die

pan on the pickup and that makes the best duck breast I know how to make about

the refrigerator a lot of people I know try to push all their temperatures lower and so they push like their fermentation temperature lower on sausage and they put their curing temperature I think you can taste the difference with hands like when I think one of the main differences between the flavor of an American country ham and like you know the Italian you know Classic Piano Prosciutto de Parma style flavor is the temperature at which the curing chamber is held radically shifted kind of reactions in the in the flavor you get so I don't think I think it's a mistake to say that one is superior to the other I would say that it is different and that the things are obviously going to exclude the rates of reactions will accelerate at higher temperatures would you have any thoughts on this Chris you're doing experiments and actually I'm extrapolating a little bit from fermentation I suffering from dough fermentation I looked at but being that it's a big part of the creation of flavors and they're there

play purple acid to contribute also preserve I do know that if you ship the temperatures down to low refrigerator like temperatures the yeast ship their metabolism in the set of producing as much lactic acid they start producing propionic acid and other assets that have a very very different tastes and so high temperature higher room temperature bread for a minute but I would also imagined warmer temperature on meat for a mint the yeasts involved are going to produce different acid in your absolutely going to get different flavor I completely agree. It's what style do you prefer but I think the major reason that you get a difference is the yeast involved in in the fermentation process start producing different kinds of acids depending on what temperature does yeast Surat Al also say that you're aging or ageing curing temperature is different from in a sausage is different when your initial kind of fermentation temperature but you know I know a lot of people who

who typically like fermentation temperature is high like above body temperature for a lot of these things for for a lot of American style sausages but I knew a guy who used to do his stuff at a much lower temperature because he was looking to get a very minimal pH drop and so he was always trying to ride the safety line on on you no salt and pH levels and that's a style but I'll say that if you were attempting to do a high pH sausage that's when you need to start worrying that be a relatively High that's when he's need to start worrying that you're going to have problems that's what you need to start checking your slavery and stuff if you do like a typical like high temperature like US dollar fermentation you're getting the people's you should still measure it but you can taste it that sucker's acidic enough do you want to meet because they're a quite acid I'm not a huge fan are you guys are you guys think about it I'm not a huge fan of like Super Pho acidic sausages because I need to texture really suffers it gets kind of dry and Chrome

so what are we got here

which way does taking an order then alright 8K Rodan about mocktails I want I want to say I read your book or liquid intelligence from cover-to-cover I'm sorry that you had to go through that torment there a k I love it I got the book as well as my first set of cocktail tools a little over a year ago and went into education mode probably within the last half-year I started dabbling thinking mainly to working with the Classics IV them in making my own ice like being a clear ice question do you have any advice on mocktails I have a few friends who are more on the lightweight one drink wondercide but still want to partake in the social aspect of drinking Chick-fil-A when seeing me mix up different things I would imagine a mocktails are not as simple as similar recipes just take out the booze you're correct and they're trying to replace it with juice or water would throw off the sugar / City ratio is there any liquids ingredients of using to provide a good substitutes or does it require totally different calculations / analysis I don't make it up to NYC is like but I'd like to stop by your place in person while we don't have one right now and hopefully

hopefully by like you know July August I have another place open again when I can announce but so you've ever done mocktail experiments with the trick is is that most cocktails are lower bricks than there non-alcoholic counterparts and if you want someone to feel like they are drinking an adult drink without alcohol the two important things in this order I would match the sugar level of a drink and then I would balance the viscosity whenever alcohol has a higher viscosity alcohol water mixtures have a higher viscosity lower surface tension but higher viscosity than water mixtures alone and so you need something that's going to add viscosity and mouth feel that isn't sugar because you don't want it as sweet as let's say as soda soda soda is going to be roughly 10% of the time alcohol cocktails

like Tomorrow based carbonated cocktails I hit it with glycerin like a matter of course and so may not think that's the that's the first thing lower the sugar add glycerin and the second thing instead of using Straight sugar I use a little bit of a sugar alcohol that has a little bit of a cooling aspect is not too much can you get a good deal of cooling without overdoing it on those things Chris I've never done a lot of experiments with it but that's the last thing I try to replicate as a little bit of that pooling aspect that you can't actually melting the crystal takes he that he comes in your mouth until it lowers the temperature of your mouth so you dissolve it into a surf you don't get the cooling effect most sugars I know now without like Menthol or something so if you did like Xylitol for that

don't overdo it on his I'll tell or if they they will definitely won't be cool on the outflow when they're in the bathroom so they stopped because people would not just eat like a normal amount of gummy bears they would feed bag like the thing of of gummy bears and then and then they had to exit strategy problems with the gummy bears on the way out so wow you know what I mean it's like you know and the fact that you have to hydrogenated or it just runs out on its own it's like a marathon runner on its on there but if you do one thing for someone and then they think it's a license to just go completely bananas you know what I mean that's not that's not what it's for it because I consume reasonable amounts of these alternative sugars

and without problem reasonable tell I don't like Menthol and just about anything you do or don't know I am not a terrible flavor remember like 8 years ago or 10 years ago when everybody was buying Menthol crystals and putting them on every damn thing

no I think I might have lived out of the country with that have to happen mostly mostly but it was like just like it was Menthol crystals they look cool with this Johnny was Johnny iuzzini or someone that I want my tongue she might have looked like a bunch of people I can't call anybody out but like a bunch of people were like it's like it was like you know first tonka beans and then we're like now you really shouldn't use a tonka beans and then it was like okay Menthol crystals and we're like yeah but they taste real bad every once in awhile just to remind myself of you know what I mean

that and I don't know I'm not a big fan of you want to talk about Jewel

no come come to chefsteps comfort you off just come for a Content that we we always let people who are passionate about cooking we love having more voices in our community so thanks for having me on and we'll see you soon nice and so and go on to mofad. Org I hate I hate organs of thing. Org just. Org hate it Moffat. Org go to Moffat. Org Gala thanks for coming and by the way I say Chris while you're still on we had an update recently to our spends All crew got some more prototypes in and so that's moving forward nicely I'm probably going to go to China and get the final final approval on the stuff in April so if you have any spends all related questions you can send those on in but those of you that were backers got an update we're moving along nicely thanks Nick for coming on and was next time in Edinborough at tales of the cocktail Edinboro on Tuesday so I

stassi and I decided that when you call and get a cell phone number