Cooking Issues Transcript

Episode 251: Masterbaking with Jim Lahey

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had with me today the Mist okay so first of all got Jackie molecules thank goodness is in the booth we don't have him for that much longer in the booth is going to go out to let you know touring on the road there had to inject in the studio today to people that we don't have in the studio today that we're supposed to have in the studio as her sister graduated from this week so she was driving back from Connecticut and the hydraulic clutch in the car she borrowed from her buddy who who lives in New York and has a stick shift you bring me up some looking for somebody with a stick shift and you're always the first one to you know if you have to buy with another car for position if you have a stick shift even if it's like a VW bug you will beat any top-of-the-line sports car with the acceleration from

what's the second boom you can you just go straight. And so she's not now I think I think she lost hydraulic pressure to hydraulic clutch in the car that she was driving but what was not working there celery to the break basically if there's a leak in the system it just leads pressure there in the clutch pedal falls to the floor now we're nearly you can still kind of get moving smell burning which first she thought was the the plate actually burning dirty driving but you know after further thinking we think it's probably the burning oil I was leaking out the truth smelling eating a lot of time to the hydraulic clutch when it goes you can you can get it to Ronnie just can't use the cliff you can get it to run and go but she wasn't able to get it to go but here's the good part so for those of you that know are set

the country the East Coast I-95 is the road that runs it's a flaming sack of crap it is often literally a plane exact Connecticut I-95 there is a town with a sign that I love my anus and my anus is near I never ever stop fail to say and me traffic through my anus every single time so literally her car she had a breakdown in my anus chances that's good

instead of this. Hey we have our fearless leader Patrick Martin's here I will be I will say next to nothing and I ain't scary faces who we don't have in the studio right now and I tweeted out twice that he would be here so hopefully he will arrive and see what's up now to be lost in the guy who started Sullivan Street Bakery over 20 years ago now I think yeah we have no need for gym today so that the point is is that you know for those of you that are you know my age or so like you know in your 40s you can remember

what New York was like when the bread here pretty much sucked I mean there were people who dates good bread but like in general the bread game in New York who is Wonder Bread in the mid-70s on the Upper East Side which is very well the neighborhood was Eli zabar he had a place called eat on 80th and Madison and that was the first place that really baked you know fresh bread do you know passed a few loaves of kind of cookie store or something like that but yes you could not find fresh bread even in New York City backpack 20-25 Years starting member Amy's Amy's bread started around the same time I've ever had a wholesale and Retail cornmeal one with raisins in it

nowadays it used to be when you travel to New York you like a to Greektown Brad sucks here I mean seriously like you would say that you you would expect that the bread you got on the table in a restaurant would suck you would expect that the bread would get out at a place even a cheese shop you expect me to start on the shoe shops you would expect that they would suck right and talk to me over here so he was a Jim Jim Lahey was one of the kind of early people making decent bread here in in New York and Sullivan Street I remember was a revelation when I had it the first time I went there and then in the 90s mid mid nineties I guess I had their Bianca the pizza Bianca and it was the only thing like what I had had over on my honeymoon in Italy is it was good stuff anyway so very crusty bread the most part, which is

basically put yeti with sesame seeds on the outside with my personal favorite signature Braves to go see a lot a lot of restaurants and there's a you know he had a split so there's not a bakery that make his particular style bread here in New York he became famous generally among Pino folks people for his no knead with a K not no need to bake bread like there's no necessity. Which is the one that came up with the tagline No need no work Reddit

wait till you get here this style weather is talk to him more or what with you ever shows up we'll ask him with no knowledge of the issue whatsoever I think it's a self-made man actual knowledge of the cooking a person in the world of people I know it's the first of all there's there's two things that happen this is no need saying came at a time and a lot of people especially Pizza people that I could I don't know if many fat bread Bakers is that new kind of people in the world are shipping to extreme long fermentations and retarding of dough and they're when they're making it and obviously the longer you let something rise the

does she need to need right and so I think that we've all shifted towards this kind of a lot of people shifted towards a longer time format Redwood less meeting and that's less work is a little bit of foresight for the work issue or for gastronomic reasons while I'm sure like talking about you hopefully movie is the is that if you just let the bread rise for a long time to things happen won the the longer like a short ferment means that you have a lot of yeast in it right and so this tends to produce a relatively single simple profile taste right because there's less kind of the yeast used to doing less to work on the base product witch's flower so the longer you raise the longer it takes two to to ferment that usually the more time with complex play the more than flowers

it's off that's interesting my sleep this is this is why Patrick Martin was the founder of slow food USA because he comes up with these poetic terms like the flower expressing himself like for me I'm like Emma such a technical head like a you know I don't do that you know that that's what you were up and give me the Poetry of the flower I'm going to call her if you want to do that while we wait

concolor you there you're on the air and I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about how that breaks down under high heat specifically and pizza ovens for deep fryers and beef rice gluten free gluten free Coatings work in frying

gluten-free like how does that Putin that comes off a breakdown in the fryer is call so you're worried about the fact that you use the same fryer for your regular products as you use for your gluten free stuff at it before my guess is that it's not a problem because the the gluten a while it's not really water-soluble I also don't think it's oil soluble I think it's just non soluble tell me that you're going to solubilize there gluten in in your finger fat oil you do get particles it all depends on how you know your fat is but I would guess that your main problem is going to be a straight-up a straight-up contamination so if you're having a straight-up contamination product problems but in a commercial

situation you're frying in a tube fryer that has a cold Zone and most of that stuff is sitting down to the bottom of your prior anyway so I would say and considering the fact that that gluten even like straight-up Celiac oh my God Kim brought my favorite oil how the hell did you know that was my favorite the good news is you never have to wash your fries are gluten is going to wipe them out but Dad said I think that if you're worried about it it's always prudent if to add this kind of thing

fried in a fryer that also fries items with gluten and then your cold but I would also push it back on to the consumer so that you're not trying to hide anything from I think that's always the safest way to go

what everybody what do you think

England

didn't have a very good answer for people who were going to ask me either look a lot of people have never cooked before so I don't really understand how it works and it never fried before so it's true when you're frying something that you know especially if you do any dry fry stuff it's not a batter like even a batter you're throwing stuff off of the batter stuff when it when it specially when it first goes in but anyone has ever fried before knows that there's extra products on the outside or text about stuck it's usually a lot of fried items aren't a straight liquid batter and even a straight liquid bad let's say you're going tempura on on it right you're getting all those who blabs of crap that fry off and I don't know anyone on Earth who's ever fried anything that hasn't gotten a piece of the last fry occasionally in their life stuck on to the Friday that they have now right I mean to be honest but the fact that matter is it's a small amount I think as long as you're finished you know you're frying something that is gluten-free you can be pretty scrupulous about the skin beforehand and once this stuff is skimmed all the rest of fall to the bottom of the cold Zone

and you're not going to do the person I don't think any any any harm

we have to talk about the bread and if you have any no knead bread questions we have what

but my God he comes in to bring but now he has to pee like this before

okay even though he's not an employee of Roberta's you later today which is great okay so here's what happens every year it's not oils Maga cultural crop as we also made by I forget the guy's name was she like a machine used to make the oil for Fontana salsa which was their supplier in Sicily that made this mix of know chillara that was the other ones know chillara

and two other olives that they grow in in in Sicily and that was like my favorite oil because I like I'm heavy on green I like like like Degrassi green with a lot of bite typically not always but anyway so like it's a whatever I go to buy a new thing of oil of like finishing oil reading oil I'm just like a what are you got that I like and like this is one of the ones I think if it's the one I'm thinking of this is that far away is Anthony always on their way out closings

so it's um

it's a bite at the palace listen if you're ever in New York City right and you like Italian products then you have to go to the palace on on Grant Street Mini been there for 8 million years while like like 98 they moved across the street is as far as far as they went and 5 are European cheeses are the best of their kind are they there cuz I mean some of these old historic places they don't get the best cheeses that you are the best dipaulo's will get the best that is legally and illegally available and Sal and Anne-Marie with the cousins and Renee which is not a guy there who works there are have this thing where they don't like to break the law

and so unlike a lot of other trees folks they won't like on the sly bringing stuff in trouble. They also like will never lie to tell you a product over the hill so the fact of matter and you know it's coming in today to dipaulo's if I'd known you were going to do the marcelino's in today right that's what I was going for because I realized that in order to show off this really mediocre example of Tuscan bread and understand you have to understand that it's that his functions for their lives for so I think that's my Approach now on a scale of 1 to 10 how would I would rate this for my test my desk testing game like app for

I me know if I can get a 7 on any loaf of bread I'm really happy I'm very contented and eight or nine is is

sometimes happens but you know I mean at the end of the day as we all know in the food business it's all about consistency write themselves that you are you know you taste like a little bit more vermouth in that and that

give me a famous drink if people want to know is the character trailer park boys named after you

that's the bread being sliced and to my God oh my God you know what they do remember like in college when those people would never slice Bagels before started slicing Bagels made with sliced a bagel into their hand and bleed all over his links yet to have incredible respect for meat slicers at the age of 15 cuz I cut my finger tip off my cell phone it was my fault and avocado pit some wide-open Jesus fit the knife didn't go the blade didn't hit the seed right down softening my head off

Moffat and Patrick and Jim are the same table and they were arguing over who was the straight man in the team and that which is kind of you know your I love your bread obviously I have for a long time I don't you think Tuscan bread sucks and expecting a yes because everyone thinks it sucks because it's like nobody I said that said nobody likes touching Brides Tuscan don't like touching bread at tables began Ground Zero as far as his food historians now I wear the ritual ritual eyes me love everyone sitting around the table was born you guys can't see when I'm looking at this looks like a Tuscan lopi Eva crosswicks terrible and the crumb is not nearly as

he says the normal crime index qualify your language and dry looking like weed from a small meal in Minneapolis called Sunrise Flour Mill and I didn't and I used to working with it's not like my I don't work with the song I was sent a sample of some weed from a Fab which which which you wanted to do is love to be made for the event but it's about 20 minutes to a half an hour and terms of Ideal fermentation which would have made

a real big difference in terms of what you see in terms of the crumb structure however that being said when you eat bread in Tuscany and if it's made from local grain in this is an argument about the Aesthetics of bread and our expectations about bread especially bread made in a local or Regional economy for the quality of the we are not going to be consistent from season to season and often times especially with weather like we have today when it occurs in like August or September during harvest season Harvest Harvest. Will most likely lead to weed that has a lesser quality protein in terms of its ability to ferment because when this humidity you end up dry weed stocks you oftentimes end up with like incidental germination and that germination destroys

quality doesn't doesn't cut into the percentage of protein in the flour and isn't necessarily a bad thing it's natural to it really occurs when you really farm and you not spraying glyphosate their crops to eat before harvesting to do kind of makes them more sellable you ever be fake with Terminator sprouted grain on sometimes just for like you know for my own head man you know I don't want to like this is news to go off in this whole fucking story but then it sits in the family show I'm so is it

let me just get y'all give you the taste description games I think it's more

and true to form it tastes like it needs some freaking salt in it

third of 1%

of salt is it isn't even a percent of salt but based on the batch maybe even a tenth of a percent of salt in the dough percentage in general that we're used to eating anywhere from a percent and a half to 2 and 1/2 sometimes i n g a percent and a half to taste the grain or Center would you be a loss center or motorcycle gang said it's the 110 Simon says I'm going to sound like pretty Sanders now it's the one tenth of a 1% that control 48% of the wealth of our nation and you didn't realize you had a large heart

Jimmy Davis this is Jeffrey in Costa Mesa

I've been baking lot of bread and both kind of straight Levon style or whatever term you you like to use and then also hybrid using operating some commercial and specifically been interested in trying to manipulate how the the starter the four metas is fed held what hydration is kept at cuz there's a lot of clams out there with say about how that will affect structure flavor complexity is a afraid there's no like fix thing on viscosity as I was saying before with regional Wheats if you want to control the outward appearance of the product in your weed for example various and protein percent or quality which Canon turn change the absorption what are the factors that can change and alter the absorption which there for the fax the Vizio

elasticity of the Delhi e its texture when it's when a when a very precise amount of liquid has been added to it

I would be more concerned to the bread Baker or craft Baker with the apparent viscoelasticity of the dough then getting caught up with walleye put exactly 85% hydration because you might get a great bread out of 75% hydration if the weed is of a different quality and I think that you know and in terms of how you hold a sourdough starter the thicker and dryer the free ferment the more gradual and slower the rate of of a fermentation the more water the quit the the the more the Fastenal for men

weather things from Netflix start testing variable specifically with that and realize like doing side-by-side and realized it would just take an eternity to actually nail down the way all this specifically how how beating holding and hydration level or the actual pre format let's let's take

let's go let's go this way if you if you go online you can buy these really cool PH meters that you can attach to your iPhone and it can upgrade if the pH of of the Dell you will find a correlation between in a finished though

you'll find a range of correlation between

the pH of the Dow does it know what happened to mix together and the pH will initially dip a little bit like within the first 15 to 20 minutes and then it will go up it will Arc upward like likes a 6% pH flour and water together and you and you have some agent fermenting agent commercial yeast fermentation agent

does the ship more negative ads will stick with him but they're going to stick with him to go back to see that there's a really precise correlation between pH of the Dow the length of time it takes for the. 11

for example of whatever constant constant conditions out of your house temperature room temperature whatever is what are user your home oven with the pilot light on is like an incubator I don't know to what degree or of a bird geek you are but you sound like pretty much at the Panera bread bread note severe

and then and then you'll see like an end result you see the correlation between the ph and the the flavor profile you see a correlation between the ph and the effect the acidity has on the doze ability to the least 11 states has this become an active I like more like 4.6 at least in New York City bread baking if you do in sourdough you're you're you're pretty much you know dealing with bread that's pretty sour there's also another factor which is the tap water because tap water varies from PHS 6.6 and environments of extremely acidic and tap water in municipalities can go

I think is highest why didn't you have to factor in the pH of the flower the pH of the water and then the rate of the effect of the ferments on the job but at least everything that I've read is that when the pH is 4.4 that fermentation stops even if there is available glucose or materials to ferment since the city itself which is why a lot of people who maintain whole story is a too high of a temperature in create these passive cultures are like Scarlet gets all tastes really what's going on

maintain the right floor for the starter and in terms of to answer you a question in this circumlocutious way

yeasts and microbes are constantly

mutating and they will adapt and and become tolerant two conditions that you establish the ones that we like the ones that make bread and wine taste good or the ones that are kind of in the 55 to 68° range and then once you start getting about 60 degrees Fahrenheit going to start noticing other types of microbes is not to say that you can order for a couple weeks at 75° Fahrenheit but eventually it's going to end up that balance between the the symbolic relationship between those classes of Sacramento season those classes of lactobacilli will change

is that cool you find it to be a kind of a one-to-one balance of it for uses more active the lack of a cell towers are less active and vice versa mean that's the other thing is that you know it's when it's feeding time at the zoo with his feeding time at the zoo it will react differently with the the finished though and even that Ratio or proportion of Preacher Man to the Finish though you know if I had like a half 500 grams

and I added 500 mg of of like three four men live on liquid a stiff kind of like what we had at the pH of that door was like 4.5 4.3 whatever hopefully not 3.7 or allow it because it's so acid that the actual pH of the death of the very thing that the window would be too small to large ratio of pre for men to finish though you could even add like 300 G of flour if the pH of the preferment is on the higher side like 4.6 enough you could make it Delaware this actually the largest component would be easy prey for men and Anna having a little bit of flour

and salt to kind of put it together and enjoyed an hour and a half side prescribed mostly for practical purposes maybe not so practical after all but but if you use a small percentage of a fermentation is a lot longer and there's more chances of manipulating it more coaxing it to get the right end result that you want

I started that you're pitching in the initial velocity matter if you put a starter in a dough that was being maintained at like seventy-five degrees. Find the bread it will function caused the the flower to become a citizen of the paste the does the pasta to become acidic and that's all it's going to do in the big shop at like you know like a hundred degrees all the time it is inedible Pacific crap Italian bread in general

I went there and I told them that that they have a crisis, freefall in terms of Italian quality products thousand already last year

I'm sorry I'm eating some Tuscan bread with some broccoli rabe

he also said the same about cheese and although he was very much responsible for getting barolo and barbaresco off I mean literally one Vineyard trip at the time he was like you should Age The Grapes longer you should do all these things cut off the Bad grapes and not use them in the wind be in barolo and barbaresco were pretty mediocre Wines in the seventies eighties from that era that was freaking delicious delicious of course but he loves it Patrick Nelson Barnyard is me this is domestic I'm very surprised

3 years what breed with my tickets I take three and then during summer time Santa house Upstate and Sullivan County I like anytime we're cooking everyday you see the end of the day head over to the the I want call the pigsty because they have a little bit of a yard but then they've got like two acres of woods to forage in so the animals we know go the summer eating vegetable scraps and whatever Critters they find as a rooting up the Earth

I buy pork from from before this is over we should talk about the Tuscan right now listen I want you to sell know I don't I'm not buying it here's what you can't eat this right you can't live without wishing instead eating your wish I just had this evidence from this week I live in some ways like my favorite breakfast is Tuscan bread

saltless butter

and honey is that is that like saying that I also like Twinkies and sociology cost to share with us his insights and thoughts about about this discussion I want to give him to this child of my son my feels I'm enjoying it is to do what do you think of this particular you know how good

interesting doesn't have the same it doesn't it's like mushy or cut stretchy it's dry

it's baked with no salt or little or no salt it's a big usually initially everything I be a bakery that doesn't traditional way

tries to maintain a dry oven for the first

327 minutes of the bake

where where to buy the tone in this case under fermented it kind of rounds out a little bit lips off the floor of the oven forms crust with skin on the dough opposite of what you would think between 380 and 400 Degrees depending upon the bakery for a lot longer than you would end up with this

loaf of bread that actually kind of his kind of semi still in a way to begin with but it doesn't really stale like today but it's a perceptual thing Across the Nation to buy garbage Oscar de la Renta to do the bread toasted

even though the cross Colours a lot lower than what it would normally be because of the

my daughter doesn't like it when I talk with food in my mouth but I'm going to go go for a 2-minute warning Dave

the bread is baked at a lower temperature of which is why the color of the brightest the way to send you would end up with the scarring that takes like what salts going where the alveoli are along the surface of the Dow

what kind of become places where the song crystallized good seeing the car called my name for the salt scarring and slow fermented or fermented in refrigerators which is very popular these days I think it's a little retarded hahaha I think it's I think it's it's really convenient that we have refrigeration

it's lovely that we have it I'm a big supporter a thing of convenience yeah we have refrigeration but in general I like I like live baking I like the elements of risk I like that I have to kind of be kind of connected to the the process of the fermentation so that I can control it without necessarily having to employee like whatever battery refrigerators increase my carbon footprint h r n n news did you say I'm just wanting to make a quote if it's possible that climate change and El Nino and global warming could perhaps be negatively affecting the quality of artisan bread around the world is there a direct correlation that I hear you kind of hinted that has children still make me take a piss Wylie

El Nino weather effects the bread they could lower the quality of local greeneries ingredients

there's a reason why doing a colonial. Seuss me one second Brooklyn was like the epicenter of agriculture in at least in the state it's just that our expectations about what good bread is

it's like you can't fit Square pegs in round Holes without kind of losing a little bit of the square in this little bit of the roundness of each and so I think that our idea about what good bread is needs to change like we still kind of stuff in this dialogue and it has a whole thing on use natural leavening for no-knead with Maria okay so look out for that it is it is final phases of testing recipe and hopefully by next year

do you like to label things in the kitchen this is a limited edition thanks for coming up on the way out of a piece of garbage different things for what they are fast food is fast food I'm sorry I don't care what Corporation is behind it

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