Cooking Issues Transcript

Episode 185: The Future of Meat

today's program has been brought to buy white oak pastures I-5 generation georgia-based beef and Poultry Farm determined to conduct business in an honorable manner for more information visit White Oak pastures. Com this is Michael Harlan turkell House of the food scene you're listening to Heritage Radio Network broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn do you like this program visit Heritage Radio Network. Org for thousands more

hair 1245 Lopez she's not doing well not as fun as awesome folks we have a Peter Kim and Emma bus from the Museum of food and drink by the way I need to provide a sweat beading on its forehead scene in Total Recall with Arnold Schwarzenegger and his eyes bugging out in buried in someone else's chest I thought more like your eyes are bugging out like I don't Schwarzenegger in Total Recall getting things you know I've used that reference account was dozens of times teaching

it's warm Furnishings close to body temperature you can room temperature I always try to bring up the Total Recall wear shorts before we ain't going back and forth between a person and a pig and sounds very unlike the the Schwarzenegger that we all know and love make a dream like two nights ago I was hanging out with him when I was totally surprised I get to the chopper like really wondering the real life whether he does it mean to murk

join in the engineering Booth by Jack last name caller right at the gate, I'm using it cost like at 12 or so our incubation. Right now and I'm doing

show me exactly what I'd like to do that or does it need to kind of have that drawing out as well so it's not just a drying out is that

I never had anyone ask me that before

I mean you're trying to you want the pH to drop now the lack of the lactic acid bacteria or anaerobic so you shouldn't need the auction maybe that thing is to stop the aux maybe the thing is to stop the exterior bacteria that are not that are aerobic from growing during the initial. Of crying out you know what I'm saying like yeah I was worried about the moist environment inside the bag somehow being a safety issue but I don't know how that much different than being inside to remember it's it's more it's it's inside the bag is not only is it you know not drying and I remember your humidity at the beginning of this stuff is super high anyway you know what I'm saying like so at the beginning

it's been years since I've looked at the number that you committed these are in the 90s when you're doing your initial fermentation if you put it in a bag you've shifted it from the exterior being anaerobic environment to an anaerobic environment and I don't know I mean you might be putting yourself at risk for various things that way but I mean I can send it over the water at least he be putting yourself in 100% humidity environment whether or not that's a problem or not I don't know me like I'll tell you what

Peter next week we're going out to hang out in Madison are you maybe they have some experience I mean obviously I've never heard of obviously there are some lactic acid things that take place entirely a real underwater sauerkraut why not why not do it in the bag sausages I frankly don't convenience and absolutely stable temperature for a very specific baguette you're definitely going to get blow off in that time because that's another interesting point is that a culture in it so I don't know I mean I've had very very

very unpleasant fermentations take place in vacuum bags you know in the mid-to in the low 50s Celsius overnight like hyper unpleasant smells specifically in pork pork shoulders and fat and I remember cuz fat fat you know what is not obviously it's thicker than water so it doesn't circulate as well as also not as good of a conductor doesn't put as much energy out so if you circulate fat you have to be really super careful that you get really good circulation all the way around and I had some stagnant points in my fat that I had these pork shoulders in and not only that the pork shoulders were touching each other in a couple places and so it was total not only a dead spot but you had something that was roughly the size of a Chevy engine that you was trying to get warm

and then you know a couple that with the fact that even when it was regulating temperature right we'd only have 57 which is just a mere like like six degrees above or seven degrees above like kind of growth for this until I had a 10 degree temperature Delta over there over the you know that span of this bath and the next day I walked in it was like someone had taken like that like a really bad blue cheese and just you know put in a pressure washer spray the whole room with it means thank heaven while I love the smell of blue cheese with the rare exception of some of a of a Chinese hand that I had a really good like Colonel newsom's hams and blue cheese not usually a note you're shooting for him meet and when it when it when it come angles with like that's like kind of putrescence that you get out of some fermentation is your eating Scandinavian fish I'm talking to you so strongly not to the hot girl which we all know it did not smell that rotten from last week I think you can I know for a fact and unpleasant things happening at but if you're using a starter culture I don't know

I have to just talk to some some people who have more than theoretical ideas about it you know what I mean that email about the turkey porchetta is for me to say I hope you guys get the chance to address that today I love you squeeze me questions but from this past couple of days but I didn't get you one to tell me the question now I can't he you know candy experiment with a turkey and grind all the dark me into sausage roll it up and do a perfect torpedo you know with Saran Wrap and then wrap it in the skin to eat it

are whatever and then and then Petri the whole thing and then serve slices of it since I'm going to be serving it at a different home other than I'm preparing it in is it going to suck if I fry it at my house and then try to rewarm it I am not so sure about that the properties of skin that's been low Temp and then fried if it's going to hold a crisp like the like the Korean Wings do with me

she's not going to be like that I mean usually when I do it I couldn't put the dark meat around the outside cuz it's the most men don't usually I mean I do the opposite of a technical standpoint higher temperature than the white meat right I mean to you see what I'll do is I'll pound out the dark I can't read what you said it and then I'll put the white on the inside I look I used as well as my standard demo knows not used to do like that went to call turducken this way right the way that you're describing with skin on the outside but one of my standard demos was to bone out a whole chicken

put the breast in the center pound out the dark meat wrap it in the skin with meat glue roll it into it by the way there's a skill in art to do with plastic wrap and you know I learned it from a friend and I'm not saying that like it's a good way to learn but cooking issues in the low temp primer cooking shoes.com skip portion which we should die by the way sink that's how you know you've done it right at the supper float everything where it's supposed to be you know it will make any any anything into it to buy seen him make that at least two black things into a also from the French culinary his magical Secret Sauce was he would after you put the normally what would be the last wrap a plastic around the torch

he would do one more thin layer of plastic and get this with a couple of butter knives rolled into it in the butt on straight to the bottom of the circulator which is a sweet trick your other thing super crispy skin either happens from long frying right like double frying typically in it in the Korean thing usually in the presence of expressed are cheap crap that can a water management is all about managing the water right so it's technically because really I could give a rat's behind about the rest of the rest of it like for me like that like an old-style like whatever you want to call it kill Sean style BonChon style whatever you wanted cuz you know Peter what do you like to call which style would you get on care speak Korean setting the skin at the right temperature to meet

sway from the scan which maintains his thing and then you have awesome water balance so it and then they put it with that kind of sugary crap that also helps to keep kind of crunchy because it's like it's basically like a shell of Awesomeness I think that's fantastic but low temperature environment where you meet glue the skin to it and you're getting all of your texture off the final fry it's never going to be crispy unless you batter it and deep fry batter and deep-fry it then you might have some good luck but you're still your dinner relying on the fact you have a thick crust to deal with the moisture management problem because you never overcooking to meet your always having something moist in contact with the skin and so it never lasts that long even as a cold prep for a buffet tonight I did that once for a you're my wife had to throw a baby shower for someone I wasn't allowed to be there, dude apparently like some people like the only dude that their baby shower

she didn't want too much cooking and I was allowed to be there to finish stuff which is fantastic. It doesn't suck

all right I'll give you that roast chicken at home dry out The Tick in over a few different days for 3 days but because it's like Mommy like appearance when it's super dry it looks almost defecated and then I'll just leave it uncovered in the in the fridge for a while the flash off and if you pull it out of the torch on when it's hot you'll get more flash off on the skin you're liable to get crispier skin anyway but I don't think you're ever going to make it to Korean Fried Chicken in Miami that I could always just load them bit and then refrigerate it and then finish it in like a 500-degree oven like that's always a good call that's always good, because then you're doing what I always call a low temperature cooking for insurance purposes meaning the suckers cooked through so you don't need to worry about it's going to get kind of mildly warming

tell us nothing really matters and then you cook it like you were going to normally cook it in somebody's crappy oven but you no longer have to sweat it because the insides already cooked me that's genius moved that's like then you then you don't have to like ask him or anything so you don't have to fry don't have to look like you're high maintenance you just throw it in the rug and it comes out to my car to cook like this is because that's what I like to hear you are no longer a high-maintenance guest on the other hand if you're bringing something kind of like that to the event like they're seeding like they're seeding anything to you know I'm saying like they're like to make some sides and then you're going to have like a big old turkey thing it's like you get to say basically whatever you want but still is Mega cool to walk in there and not mess with the fact that they are still rushing

are mashed potatoes Don walking to the kitchen for about 25 seconds

just like I'm never going to do this is what I want to do someone do this I want to make disposable like really like like inexpensive recyclable maybe disposable microphone things which a simple accelerometer in it just keep me in your pocket and they have a little speaker in them and then when you do something when you drop it and it goes and walk away from it and use You by like a pack of five of these like drop the mics and then he was always have one with you for when it's time to drop the mic and walk away I think I hear your new Kickstarter it is something that's all I'm saying in order to properly pitch the idea you need to have them I could drop at the end of your pits

well that's why I'm saying something has its own if it's going to go make some Les a time to go make the mic like they should just make it and I'm just saying send us something that's all I'm not it's not in my it's not in my you know the range of things that we work on Booker and Dax I can't really devote the time to come up with the turkey

hey Dave how you been doing all right I work at a manufacturing company and recently they passed me with designing like a full-service kitchen for all the guys that work on the shop floor sweep sand and the owner of the company presented by initial way out to him and he thought it was great I'm actually making you some sous-vide machines and stuff and but he wants me to reuse some old equipment that we have lying around or just makes complete sense he's got like two or three three three compartment sink that he wants to use for sous vide right I told him just use polycarbonate Benz cuz I know they're cheap and it's personal you can spare them and stuff I was just curious how would you like and have like one per compartment and plus you got like like water bath that are sharing Lino walls in the sink and stuff like transfer between different temperature bath what are your thoughts

is that you can actually drain the sink when you're done with your CV and and you're not dumping out of Big Bend of water and all that

sure well I mean like okay so Gerard Philip Preston from polyscience built want to build something very much like that for Girard bed too long from Cuisine solution and and he loves it right so you know it's obviously feasible the thing is you're going to be dealing typically with the sink you're going to be dealing with a much larger water water situation and you would be with a regular circulator which tops out at around 2,000 tops out at around $28 worth of water so you need to measure kind of how much your your big your sink is an in kind of figure from their how much power you're going to need secondly a lot depends on how you're going to mount that heating had so some people have done it where they mount late like mountain standard circulator into a into a sink and if you're going to do that we have to be careful of is that you get full circulation from top to bottom right

a lot of people just worried about above the water and is the heater above the water but that is colder water tends to sink so if you have something of circulating over-the-top you can have stagnation at the bottom and all the cooler water is Flowing to the bottom so you're never heating all the way down to the bottom of your tank especially if you have product in there so typically if you're going to have something if you're going to do something like let's say well. What kind of shop you guys are metal plastic what are you so you're good to go so what you would do is like like well like a bracket so that you could put the circulator pump in the sink if you need to use the simplest way more complicated and really internal so you can mount a controller in a circulator and you can play well to pump into it so you never have to have something on the outside fence how much you want to put into it but

work you have to do it's a little more not as built-in back to the sink itself usually in a depends on what kind of three compartment sink that you have but most of the time it's not like an actual partition otherwise just a piece of metal typically you know you'll have is it or is it like three things that are sunk into it and you have like a good like half 3/4 of an inch lip in between the compartments the metal divider or something, I don't think it's actually like a like a u shape or anything you could always just make if you want like an insulated metal kind of Saddle that you can mount the two circulators to that a slip over the panel and that'll provide enough insulation stop too much crosstalk between the two and provide an easy way to drop to circulators into the sink without modifying the sink

I'm a nice guy and that you're that's going to be maybe the easiest way because doesn't require any kind of axle modification of the sink unit itself and stay where it is and that everything else can be done in the shop what I would recommend putting some spray insulation on the inside under the other parts of the sink so that you're not losing too much through the bottom of the cabinets that make sense exactly I wouldn't use those ping pong balls I think they're a pain in the butt never met anyone who's been like you know what I'm really glad I think I think we're so fine it was good I think it's really awesome when you're doing stuff that like is really nasty with really nasty follicles like if your electroplating a fantastic for cooking like like you know just like a modified like like saying lid and you know depending on how fancy you want to go you can you know like seeing people make like hinge portions of it so you could go and get Portion by portion

you can drain some water and then you can just pitch ice into it and and and and drop the temp down or you can what you should typically do is is drain the water let it sit for a couple minutes add regular room temperature tap water to it let it sit for a couple of minutes and then I sat down you can do all of that under circulation which makes it a lot more efficient really stoked about it that's that's really good helpful information I just found out to that we have like metal supply of liquid nitrogen so I'm going to check with our supplier make sure it's do Dre and then go to town of that most of the people who supplied Supply also too kind of medical places so are the product itself is all good it's a question of the filling apparatus in the tank with the most the time you're actually okay cuz it be harder for them to you know give you something that's ruined and not in most cases not always always check with them they don't use to call it food grater called Medical

okay awesome thanks so much super

I have another Roman structure and I think it calls for apartments way too hot to a circulator how I how I am looking for I don't know how sensitive it's going to be too

what'll happen when you're doing when you're hanging something is that or when you're committing a cure any anything you're doing right is that a number of things are going on your drying the product out in some cases there's bacteria fermentation going on but there's also a lot of enzymatic activity is going on and in any of those situations are going to be affected by both the heat and humidity and it can affect not only the length of time but also the flavor that's going to come out at which is why American country hand we're talking a lot of enzymatic activity in the meat along with the drawing you the higher temperature products are going to have a kind of a different you know more robust I have more American flavor temperature but it might not be the same I'll see you want

what humidity does he recommend I forget what I don't remember and I'm not sure if I mean I feel you probably don't have the space to get a wine cooler and use it for and use it for curing Meats although it works quite well yeah like in a one of the ones that like I have one that holds I think like I don't know like 15 16 bottles and I use it like I use it I never had that much extra maybe it's 2 case I don't know I never had that much wine in my house because I don't collect like expensive wines but I also use it to store my cheese is when they come in cuz I don't like to refrigerate my cheeses and I'll use it for meats that I'm holding you so you could do something like that you might be able to literally just

like throw some ice in the bottom how long you have to do it

how long do you have to keep it

I think they say about a week or so maybe you can feel something easily build like with a Peltier like a thermoelectric is y'all need to move that much energy out right she can probably pretty easily build something that would hold the right temperature inside of like a cooler or even something you made out of Styrofoam it's just a question of like where you keep it like what you like hide in the closet somewhere but it would be difficult for it would be that difficult to do the way that doesn't Shatter Me these Lee do it if you shop your fridge then you can't keep anything else that's not really a valid solution to go to use a little corner of the dorm fridge with temp humidity control

yeah if you have the space for it like that's a great way to go Elliott temperature control stop and just kind of keep it up up up near you be putting in the cooling phase rather than the warming face so you wouldn't have a heater on it you have a cooler on it then if you were really slick like if you wanted to raise the temperature above ambient later you can throw a heater into it as well but clearly work if you have the space might be able to get away with in the closet Santa Claus is not going to get too hot and I know that for a fact that the wine cooler cuz I've kept the wine cooler in a closet for you know over a decade and it worked fine

yeah I mean I think it comes down to how much am I going to be doing this my going to get really into it where this something that you can crack the whip if you're anything like most people in New York Apartment 2 gets hot as heck because they have those radiators and radiators can't be adjusted and so like you have to open your windows in the middle of winter are you like that. The good news about that if you can find a place in your place that's cold enough by putting a close enough to a window like you know in a box with some screen over it really cheaply and figure out kind of whether you like it or not or whether you're going to do and then before it gets like really hot again then you can invest in a in a in a more permanent like dorm fridge

a good idea always good to test the waters or go the other way the other way the other way and I've done this many times it just jump right the heck and spend all the cash I got to do it now cuz I devoted all this time I got to do it now that's how I learn to play bass guitar is that kind of money so it was like you know it's like you have to make a big investment in time and and or money that it's personal failure embarrassment if you don't actually see it through you know Foods advice is to take a high-interest loan or Pawn off some very valuable you know Family Jewels and then take it up so that the stakes are so high that you must go through with it interesting ly that Peter interpreted my my exactly what he did with the museum

and my quit a fine lawyer in job with benefits and salary to start the Museum of food and drink with forever appreciates he did exactly he actually did take my advice that way and here's here's where Yesterday by Peter and Emma are here this Thursday here in New York how we should produce meat in the future if a tad for worse or whether we should be in the future of animal liberation

Mark budolfson is currently working on a volume on food ethics to be published by Oxford University press runs a nonprofit called New Harvest they advocate for cultured meat and various varieties of so-called in vitro meat and think about the carnivores Manifesto and also runs Heritage my next week if you are a New York or the area we would love it if you could come tickets are at meet. Org the 16th either meet like the stuff unfortunately Peters going to do the introductions so I can't go

Peter Peterson vegetarian philosopher what's your damn man by Peter Singer interesting against eating meat on the grounds that if you don't believe in racism then you also shouldn't believe in eating meat you can't distinguish between animal suffering you can't distinguish between the suffering of animals and of people in terms of value judgments and then says well back in the day we used to make differences between different groups of people and we don't do that anymore so relatively it's kind of utilitarian plus bludgeoning you with your own sensibilities kind of argument about not eating meat and accurate or inaccurate

the suffering that animals and humans experience in consideration of suffering for living human might experience that differs their but they're still he argues a fundamental interest in life that all living things share the to ride the animal suffering and but denying us as people the right to draw lines of Distinction in treatment on when we recognize suffering is occurring and then but you know that you know and they're like clearly probably not a food dude just saying is because I get a couple of the references in the book you like especially for something is not important

eating the animal you can kill it almost seems in some places been a year since I've read it but he's Australian Australian accent need something which has life are you going to stay the whole time I can tell them to stop eating meat that's just not possible

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will come to the debate so that guy's voice I would like I told you about that is why I only up to Princeton what's the weather here

are you a baby or 3 weeks ago you very briefly mentioned your recipe for doing kombu Dashi in the circulator did you give me the actual recipe the key thing with combo there's a couple of key things, one is obviously the the variety you get cuz they are very like extremely widely in terms of not just the amount of umami flavor they deliver second thing is obviously how its temperature and time so so the best I mean the best results I got were in the bag circulated

you can probably do it without the bag circulates got to make sure that you don't get little pieces sucked up into the circulator it was it was either 60 or 70 CE I have to go back and look at my at my number but it was 60 or 70 CE I think for like in the area of an hour I did longer I didn't show her I did hire I did lower the numbers I got that it wasn't like by little bit by a lot went through also all the different varieties that we could Source here in New York but my memory is too thin to give you the exact exact stuff on it but it was we have like two or three posts on. On kombu Dashi wall with numbers and photos you can kind of see how it looks after work I didn't like we haven't like archive so it's you know it's not a living document anymore but it's still there

be back and I'll go figure out the exact magic numbers again

I am

expensive Asian ingredients and have some idea what you're saying for I mean for for Japanese stuff for food I mean I Used To Source while I was getting that stuff directly from kind of a tree world's who was my Seafood supplier to now I know I don't have any more like a super fantastic Japanese Source I get Sinnoh or Foods I I tend to go to the same markets that we all kind of go to hear in New York but I don't know any online or in in the city I know that you could go out to where do you go for stuff I am am I live in Japan for how long

New Jersey once or twice as good as weird about that if you don't speak like they don't necessarily think that you really care and so they're not really going to like like worry about whether you get the best this or that like I've never purchased a good salad in Okeechobee she here ever you know what I mean you could have gotten some decent meet me so I've gotten I've never gotten a nacho that I thought was worth spit here in in New York as opposed to want to have an over the over and took a give me good web sources though what you should do is follow also at mofad are Twitter account for the museum and Emma will tweet out for you a good source that stuff or we'll find someone who knows and will treat it out then please follow at mofad so you can see Emma's response right

look into it for you thank you very much thank you Peter show last week on a Friday and it's now up right jack sorry yes it is written in and like always always handle the live call it feel like having light colors that's just me I know some open call I just did a side by side of a Hunt's vs. Heinz yesterday okay but have you had search kensington's I just met with on the Sounders that company has also had you how was it

wait guys I just I have to do this real quick. What are we listening to

very good times at Kensington and you listen to The Heritage Radio Network of course that sound like I kind of like it although it seems like did you know cuz I know these to know what that in Spanish the word for Worcestershire sauce is English sauce no matter what the hell is like tomatoes come from Spain for them if they have like a a a dose of Witcher light flavors are anchovies in it

Westchester at or whatever they want to call the fake one that doesn't have the anchovy in it like has some of the note to wish your sauce but ain't real deal homie stuff you know I'm saying I think so. Pepper it's basically a compound butter of anchovies black pepper and butter that's an English name people can English a bad rap at they look they love to chutneys prior to like this whole like we know revitalization of British food over the past you know 15-20 years and talking like old school like even with all the crappy stuff is still had that that the chutneys that the sauce is the relishes I mean you know crappy food

wow that's what you're saying that's what you're saying I'm interpreting the air like what the fundraiser for moped on Madison Iowa to James Beard award-winning chefs and the underground food Collective and that's October 23rd Dave will be making cocktails so if y'all are anywhere near Madison Wisconsin tickets I can get them at mofad fundraiser. Eventbrite.com on her Facebook and put a post up on that so I Wisconsin and brats I'm going to do one quick one on the way out and then we're going to have to catch the rest of the ones I still owe you guys answers on in either catch up so probably not to do ketchup show but this one goes out to the Sea Food Truck

are you covered brats are sausages in immersion circulator with beer can you share the tips again yes so what you do is you can do it in the first couple of one's going to come out are going to taste as broad as the rest would because you have to get the whole thing tasting like brats you know what I'm saying so you want like maximum brightness minimum beer at least the beginning so you can get an early notice in a classroom and also got New York hot dog cart I've drunk the hot dog water for my New York hot dog cart before and a sucker tastes more like a hot dog in a hot dog does and I have pretty sure they reuse the water day in and day out and don't worry if it's not bad it's kind of like you know they like the secret you know Chinese stocks are made for hundreds of years because the flavor is like near the keep on like reinforce me with fresh meat and so you're not leaving any flavor. So you have it in the circulator at like 1:40 right over cooking the stuff in the garage and put it over a flaming hot Grill

going to be over to me delicious and beer brats and forever and awesome. I know I owe you don't worry I know I owe you I got to talk about fermentation in the bag and maybe we'll talk about that more when we get more information on me from the Tatian in the bag which I've never done the next time on cooking issues program on Heritage Radio Network. Org Heritage Radio Network you can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage on the school right here you can email ask questions anytime that info at Heritage Radio Network. Org your network is a 501 c 3 non-profit to donate and become a member website today thanks for listening